The limited value of the pharmacy profession is now being put on full display

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

In times of crisis such as this COVID-19 pandemic, one only needs to look at who the government, public health agencies and hospitals are interacting with and calling upon to respond to understand the limited role a pharmacist plays in the healthcare ecosystem. I do not make this post to beat a dead horse, but many of the things that have been echoed on this forum are now becoming extremely apparent (if it isn't already apparent).

Some observations I've made through the last few days:

1) Pharmacy is saturated with an oversupply of workers, yet in a time of public health crisis there is no increase in demand for pharmacists to aid in relief efforts because the PharmD curriculum is irrelevant, "pharmacist skill sets" are not transferrable and pharmacists are not recognized as even midlevel providers.

In California, cities are hosting job fairs and hiring qualified/licensed nurses ON THE SPOT because there is a surge in demand for "frontline healthcare staff." Meanwhile, job fairs for pharmacists have been nonexistant and they can't even volunteer with relief efforts because they don't even have the basic medical training to even screen/triage patients. Moreover, I only hear of more and more pharmacists (who work in hospitals) being SENT HOME as opposed to working more hours due to demand. Can you imagine doctors or nurses "working from home" in a time like this?

2) Even if there were an expanded role for pharmacists during this public health crisis, we do not have a voice to represent the issues specific to pharmacy and therefore any progress/relief pharmacists get will be a result of the trickle-down that comes through policy work from non-pharmacy (medical and nursing) national organizations.

If you've been watching the news then you'd know that the President has been meeting with not just legislators, private sector/commercial companies but also healthcare groups to talk through issues that impact them. Today, he met with the heads of the NP groups to listen to their concerns about PPEs and ventilators and I can't help but think that if pharmacists were actually relevant then they should be getting a meeting with the President. The only time pharmacy has been mentioned so far is in the context of developing new therapeutics (which isn't pharmacy) and converting select retail sites to serve as collection sites for corona testing. Tremendous failure by APhA, AACP, ASHP etc to represent our profession and lobby for an increased scope of practice (this is a great time for that) in a time like this.

3. Pharmacy is possibly the healthcare profession (maybe I should call it a pseudo-healthcare profession) with the biggest passive-aggressive whiners in it and most pharmacists lack perspective.

I don't know how many posts I've seen in the last week about the lack of PPEs and how we should be "paid more" because we deal with patients who potentially have corona every day. I've laid out an argument elsewhere that a bag boy at a supermarket is probably exposed to more corona patients than a retail pharmacist so I won't go through that again, but it is statements like these that reveals peoples' true colors and if we all truly went into healthcare/pharmacy to "help people" and not for the paycheck, people would not say things like this. In any industry, the "highest risk" workers are not the ones getting paid the most, and we have it good compared to real providers, so for those that keep complaining about lack of PPE/hazard pay etc., just know that if nurses/physicians aren't even getting adequate protection or pay, then there is no way that pharmacy will get it so stop whining about it.

What do you all think?

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[firework]

Although I agree with you point that "pharmacists are not recognized as even midlevel providers", coronavirus is a bad example to illustrate your point. There's no drug for coronavirus, you know that right? Amazon and even toilet paper factories are hiring temporary workers in response to the crisis but pharmaceutical companies are not working around the clock. As a matter of fact, many of my friends work in pharma industry were also told to work from home. Can you say toilet paper has a more important place in healthcare than pharmaceuticals?

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Although I agree with you point that "pharmacists are not recognized as even midlevel providers", coronavirus is a bad example to illustrate your point. There's no drug for coronavirus, you know that right? Amazon and even toilet paper factories are hiring temporary workers in response to the crisis but pharmaceutical companies are not working around the clock. As a matter of fact, many of my friends work in pharma industry were also told to work from home. Can you say toilet paper has a more important place in healthcare than pharmaceuticals?

That's exactly my point. The pharmacist's skillset is so one-dimensionally tied to pharmacotherapy that in a public health crisis like this they are USELESS because they cannot be deployed to helping out other areas in healthcare and meet the moment. In addition, once therapeutics becomes available, pharmacists will not be the ones even administering those therapies to patients (though I'm sure BPS will probably come out with board certification in COVID-19 by then).

 

[farm4real]

In times of crisis such as this COVID-19 pandemic, one only needs to look at who the government, public health agencies and hospitals are interacting with and calling upon to respond to understand the limited role a pharmacist plays in the healthcare ecosystem. I do not make this post to beat a dead horse, but many of the things that have been echoed on this forum are now becoming extremely apparent (if it isn't already apparent).

Some observations I've made through the last few days:
1) Pharmacy is saturated with an oversupply of workers, yet in a time of public health crisis there is no increase in demand for pharmacists to aid in relief efforts because the PharmD curriculum is irrelevant, "pharmacist skill sets" are not transferrable and pharmacists are not recognized as even midlevel providers.

In California, cities are hosting job fairs and hiring qualified/licensed nurses ON THE SPOT because there is a surge in demand for "frontline healthcare staff." Meanwhile, job fairs for pharmacists have been nonexistant and they can't even volunteer with relief efforts because they don't even have the basic medical training to even screen/triage patients. Moreover, I only hear of more and more pharmacists (who work in hospitals) being SENT HOME as opposed to working more hours due to demand. Can you imagine doctors or nurses "working from home" in a time like this?

2) Even if there were an expanded role for pharmacists during this public health crisis, we do not have a voice to represent the issues specific to pharmacy and therefore any progress/relief pharmacists get will be a result of the trickle-down that comes through policy work from non-pharmacy (medical and nursing) national organizations.

If you've been watching the news then you'd know that the President has been meeting with not just legislators, private sector/commercial companies but also healthcare groups to talk through issues that impact them. Today, he met with the heads of the NP groups to listen to their concerns about PPEs and ventilators and I can't help but think that if pharmacists were actually relevant then they should be getting a meeting with the President. The only time pharmacy has been mentioned so far is in the context of developing new therapeutics (which isn't pharmacy) and converting select retail sites to serve as collection sites for corona testing. Tremendous failure by APhA, AACP, ASHP etc to represent our profession and lobby for an increased scope of practice (this is a great time for that) in a time like this.

3. Pharmacy is possibly the healthcare profession (maybe I should call it a pseudo-healthcare profession) with the biggest whiners in it that take no action.

I don't know how many posts I've seen in the last week about the lack of PPEs and how we should be "paid more" because we deal with patients who potentially have corona every day. I've laid out an argument elsewhere that a bag boy at a supermarket is probably exposed to more corona patients than a retail pharmacist so I won't go through that again, but it is statements like these that reveals peoples' true colors and if we all truly went into healthcare/pharmacy to "help people" and not for the paycheck, people would not say things like this. In any industry, the "highest risk" workers are not the ones getting paid the most, and we have it good compared to real providers, so for those that keep complaining about lack of PPE/hazard pay etc., just know that if nurses/physicians aren't even getting adequate protection or pay, then there is no way that pharmacy will get it so stop whining about it.

What do you all think?

You are not wrong....

 

[sfachine]

The professions you mention will have jobs during the recession.Many pharmacists won't. Walgreens cut store and pharmacy hours.I dont know whether the staff will get paid for those hours or not.

 

[mentos]

Great observations. APha has their headquarters right outside of the Lincoln Memorial at Washington DC. What is that building there for?

 

[TheBlaah]

In times of crisis such as this COVID-19 pandemic, one only needs to look at who the government, public health agencies and hospitals are interacting with and calling upon to respond to understand the limited role a pharmacist plays in the healthcare ecosystem. I do not make this post to beat a dead horse, but many of the things that have been echoed on this forum are now becoming extremely apparent (if it isn't already apparent).

Some observations I've made through the last few days:
1) Pharmacy is saturated with an oversupply of workers, yet in a time of public health crisis there is no increase in demand for pharmacists to aid in relief efforts because the PharmD curriculum is irrelevant, "pharmacist skill sets" are not transferrable and pharmacists are not recognized as even midlevel providers.

In California, cities are hosting job fairs and hiring qualified/licensed nurses ON THE SPOT because there is a surge in demand for "frontline healthcare staff." Meanwhile, job fairs for pharmacists have been nonexistant and they can't even volunteer with relief efforts because they don't even have the basic medical training to even screen/triage patients. Moreover, I only hear of more and more pharmacists (who work in hospitals) being SENT HOME as opposed to working more hours due to demand. Can you imagine doctors or nurses "working from home" in a time like this?

2) Even if there were an expanded role for pharmacists during this public health crisis, we do not have a voice to represent the issues specific to pharmacy and therefore any progress/relief pharmacists get will be a result of the trickle-down that comes through policy work from non-pharmacy (medical and nursing) national organizations.

If you've been watching the news then you'd know that the President has been meeting with not just legislators, private sector/commercial companies but also healthcare groups to talk through issues that impact them. Today, he met with the heads of the NP groups to listen to their concerns about PPEs and ventilators and I can't help but think that if pharmacists were actually relevant then they should be getting a meeting with the President. The only time pharmacy has been mentioned so far is in the context of developing new therapeutics (which isn't pharmacy) and converting select retail sites to serve as collection sites for corona testing. Tremendous failure by APhA, AACP, ASHP etc to represent our profession and lobby for an increased scope of practice (this is a great time for that) in a time like this.

3. Pharmacy is possibly the healthcare profession (maybe I should call it a pseudo-healthcare profession) with the biggest whiners in it that take no action.

I don't know how many posts I've seen in the last week about the lack of PPEs and how we should be "paid more" because we deal with patients who potentially have corona every day. I've laid out an argument elsewhere that a bag boy at a supermarket is probably exposed to more corona patients than a retail pharmacist so I won't go through that again, but it is statements like these that reveals peoples' true colors and if we all truly went into healthcare/pharmacy to "help people" and not for the paycheck, people would not say things like this. In any industry, the "highest risk" workers are not the ones getting paid the most, and we have it good compared to real providers, so for those that keep complaining about lack of PPE/hazard pay etc., just know that if nurses/physicians aren't even getting adequate protection or pay, then there is no way that pharmacy will get it so stop whining about it.

What do you all think?

1. Pharmacists have never been frontline healthcare staff. Anyone who thinks that is deluding themselves.

I mentioned it elsewhere, but my hospital has been pulling back a lot of our decentralized staff due to decreased workload and either sticking them with "projects" aka busy work like medroom inspections or having them train in central pharmacy, while central pharmacy takes over their workload. They're scrambling to find work for the clinical pharmacists to do. Other nearby hospitals are going through the same thing. If anything, clinical pharmacists are most at risk of losing hours.

2. I agree, pharmacy representation kinda blows. However, a few other professions that aren't being lobbied for that I'd consider frontline are phlebotomists and respiratory therapists. They're the ones who are in direct contact with bodily fluids. The simple fact of the matter is that there's so many doctors and nurses that they're able to have a large say just because of numbers (and good lobbying).

3. In an ideal world, everybody would have access to PPE, but there just isn't enough to go around. The frontline staff are all taking care of patients without PPE, when for all they know, the patient could be a carrier without any respiratory symptoms. If they're not able to wear PPE for every patient they see, there's not a good enough reason to warrant retail pharmacists to be automatically entitled to PPE.

 

[nickw2401]

The dual pharmd/pa programs are going to become more prevalent

 

[awval999]

All decentralized RPhs were pulled from floors at my health system. They are currently doing their "clinical" work remotely.

Look, ambulatory and clinical pharmacists are important. But when SHTF it's quite obvious what's most important, and that's dispensing. There will be furloughs of clinical pharmacists in 4 weeks unless we have a miracle. Health systems won't be able to support employees (not just pharmacists) who aren't able to work. Nurses will be able quickly adjust from elective OR (ortho, etc.) back to med/surg. Pharmacists' skill sets aren't as easily transferable. I'm sure you know plenty of clinical pharmacists who can't verify an order in the eMAR or check an IV.

 

[gwarm01]

All decentralized RPhs were pulled from floors at my health system. They are currently doing their "clinical" work remotely.

Look, ambulatory and clinical pharmacists are important. But when SHTF it's quite obvious what's most important, and that's dispensing. There will be furloughs of clinical pharmacists in 4 weeks unless we have a miracle. Health systems won't be able to support employees (not just pharmacists) who aren't able to work. Nurses will be able quickly adjust from elective OR (ortho, etc.) back to med/surg. Pharmacists' skill sets aren't as easily transferable. I'm sure you know plenty of clinical pharmacists who can't verify an order in the eMAR or check an IV.

Same situation with my hospital. It proves the argument that dispensing pharmacists are a necessity while clinical pharmacists are a luxury.

 

[tobie]

i was wondering this the other day. graduated in 2007 and looking to get to a PA program. are there online PA programs or programs in general that would even take someone like me?

 

[Mambo#5]

In times of crisis such as this COVID-19 pandemic, one only needs to look at who the government, public health agencies and hospitals are interacting with and calling upon to respond to understand the limited role a pharmacist plays in the healthcare ecosystem. I do not make this post to beat a dead horse, but many of the things that have been echoed on this forum are now becoming extremely apparent (if it isn't already apparent).

Some observations I've made through the last few days:
1) Pharmacy is saturated with an oversupply of workers, yet in a time of public health crisis there is no increase in demand for pharmacists to aid in relief efforts because the PharmD curriculum is irrelevant, "pharmacist skill sets" are not transferrable and pharmacists are not recognized as even midlevel providers.

In California, cities are hosting job fairs and hiring qualified/licensed nurses ON THE SPOT because there is a surge in demand for "frontline healthcare staff." Meanwhile, job fairs for pharmacists have been nonexistant and they can't even volunteer with relief efforts because they don't even have the basic medical training to even screen/triage patients. Moreover, I only hear of more and more pharmacists (who work in hospitals) being SENT HOME as opposed to working more hours due to demand. Can you imagine doctors or nurses "working from home" in a time like this?

2) Even if there were an expanded role for pharmacists during this public health crisis, we do not have a voice to represent the issues specific to pharmacy and therefore any progress/relief pharmacists get will be a result of the trickle-down that comes through policy work from non-pharmacy (medical and nursing) national organizations.

If you've been watching the news then you'd know that the President has been meeting with not just legislators, private sector/commercial companies but also healthcare groups to talk through issues that impact them. Today, he met with the heads of the NP groups to listen to their concerns about PPEs and ventilators and I can't help but think that if pharmacists were actually relevant then they should be getting a meeting with the President. The only time pharmacy has been mentioned so far is in the context of developing new therapeutics (which isn't pharmacy) and converting select retail sites to serve as collection sites for corona testing. Tremendous failure by APhA, AACP, ASHP etc to represent our profession and lobby for an increased scope of practice (this is a great time for that) in a time like this.

3. Pharmacy is possibly the healthcare profession (maybe I should call it a pseudo-healthcare profession) with the biggest whiners in it that take no action.

I don't know how many posts I've seen in the last week about the lack of PPEs and how we should be "paid more" because we deal with patients who potentially have corona every day. I've laid out an argument elsewhere that a bag boy at a supermarket is probably exposed to more corona patients than a retail pharmacist so I won't go through that again, but it is statements like these that reveals peoples' true colors and if we all truly went into healthcare/pharmacy to "help people" and not for the paycheck, people would not say things like this. In any industry, the "highest risk" workers are not the ones getting paid the most, and we have it good compared to real providers, so for those that keep complaining about lack of PPE/hazard pay etc., just know that if nurses/physicians aren't even getting adequate protection or pay, then there is no way that pharmacy will get it so stop whining about it.

What do you all think?

I agree. I’ve seen tons of ads for nurses now, even I think I saw a sign on bonus. Still, when the vaccine is available and we still are not needed then I would say we are totally useless. But I think at this point, perhaps we really are. All this schooling and more with residencies now being required in bumblef*** and even in retail lmfao......pharmacy is a scam.

 

[VA77]

AACP was too busy with their "meeting" in Puerto Rico a month ago. Lucinda has to tan and Tom at APHA is busy running one of his primary business. Anyone who thinks these orgs represent the profession is delusional. I get better responses from my state and federal representatives who then put pressure on the BoPs to enact legislation.

 

[Hedgehog32]

i was wondering this the other day. graduated in 2007 and looking to get to a PA program. are there online PA programs or programs in general that would even take someone like me?

Yale has one:

Yale Physician Assistant Online Program

Posted December 7, 2023The Yale PA Online Program will graduate its final class in 2026. The program will continue to offer high-quality, innovative education

paonline.yale.edu

 

[BMBiology]

All decentralized RPhs were pulled from floors at my health system. They are currently doing their "clinical" work remotely.

Get this...I was telling my friend how the role of a pharmacist is limited. His wife is a pharmacist. He got defensive and told me how I am being negative, how it is my fault for not expanding my skills. What a joke he is. His wife’s hours eventually got cut and he asked me if I know any opening. I guess his wife is the one who didn’t have the right skills after all.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I wouldn't say we are worthless, we are still needed, but completely understand our role in the day to day mgmt is limited, but a drug supply is necessary. Things RPh's can do:
Ensure proper supplies on hand
Ensure proper use of nebs vs inhalers (auto convert all non COVID pt's to nebs)
Be an extra set of hands during emergencies (I do a lot of non-RPh things when managing critical patients)

One things were we can show our value is in preparedness for things such as this. Over the years I have inserted myself in a lot of these committees and meetings. But you have to be able to problem solve things other than drugs. You have a brain and need to use it to come up with ideas, and work on PI, etc. It has taken several years, but due to my work (and the work of other RPh's at my hospital) there is never a committee that meets without pharmacy representation.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Things RPh's can do:
Ensure proper supplies on hand

Be an extra set of hands during emergencies (I do a lot of non-RPh things when managing critical patients)

The issue isn't that we are complete duds to the system. The issue is that we are duds in the value we bring relative to how much we cost, which is why salaries keep dropping as people figure out we are just glorified techs and why something has got to give (and also why "clinical" pharmacists keep looking for ways to make themselves "useful" such as being on committees-- do you think doctors or nurses have to "think of ways to make themselves useful to a hospital?" 100% nope).

The principle of "looking for ways to make yourself useful" doesn't apply to every job in society, because for most jobs you are paid to do one specific thing. For grocers it is to stock the shelves with merchandise. For coffee baristas it is to make and sell drinks. For doctors it is to treat sick patients that come into the hospital. And for pharmacists it is to fill and dispense scripts.

The subset of pharmacists that get to do what you're talking about are select pharmacists in hospitals (since inventory management is part of the job description for a PIC), however these are not good examples to point to and say "just innovate like this" because these jobs 1. require institutionalized knowledge and therefore are considered niche jobs and 2. because these jobs are niche they do not apply to the majority of pharmacists and therefore are not scalable to the broader healthcare ecosystem.

For example, "ensuring supplies are on hand" or "doing other non-RPh duties" are things that techs can do and to have a pharmacist do that is featherbedding, it is not plug and play (you can't just hire a random retail pharmacist to do hospital drug purchasing, for example), and you'd only need one or two people to do that for your entire system (not to mention being involved with committees and stuff is 100% not applicable to retail pharmacists anyways).

In contrast, nurses or PAs have baseline technical skill sets that are transferrable across lines of work (charting, handoffs, taking vitals, making an IV line etc) so if there is an increase in demand for ICU nurses then you can easily pull or hire nurses that don't necessarily have a background in that exact speciality to fill the need because skills are transferrable and standardized. Meanwhile a retail pharmacist wouldn't know anything about inpatient drugs, a hospital pharmacist wouldn't know anything about outpatient drugs (besides the ones they see in their patient population) and a industry pharmacist wouldn't know anything clinical at all, so the dichotomy of even GENERAL DRUG KNOWLEDGE is so wide between pharmacists that there's no point in even going beyond that when discussing "transferrable skills" in the healthcare environment.

Our country is starting to deploy medical field hospitals and I guarantee you pharmacists will not be involved with that. I also guarantee you that pharmacists will not be administering the COVID-19 vaccines when they do become available. Why? Because we don't have the training to do so. In the hospital world, others have posted about "clinical" pharmacists being pulled from floors/being delegated "busy work," so no matter what front you look at this just goes to show the limited value of pharmacists.

 

[RedROSE]

We are not bombarded with orders either at my hospital. We were extremely busy just 2 weeks ago though. Why do you think we are seeing a decline right now? From what Ive read above, other hospitals experience it too. I am curious.
Also, our pharmacy department has not taken any measures to ensure employees are coming to work healthy. What was implemented in your pharmacy department? Im advocating for temp checks before each shift, its pending approval.

 

[penicillinman]

We are not bombarded with orders either at my hospital. We were extremely busy just 2 weeks ago though. Why do you think we are seeing a decline right now? From what Ive read above, other hospitals experience it too. I am curious.
Also, our pharmacy department has not taken any measures to ensure employees are coming to work healthy. What was implemented in your pharmacy department? Im advocating for temp checks before each shift, its pending approval.

this was done at hospital level for us. Each and every employee gets one when entering the facility.

The issue isn't that we are complete duds to the system. The issue is that we are duds in the value we bring relative to how much we cost (which is why salaries keep dropping as people figure out we are just glorified techs), which is why something has got to give (and which is why "clinical" pharmacists keep looking for ways to make themselves "useful" such as being on committees-- do you think doctors or nurses have to "think of ways to make themselves useful to a hospital?" 100% nope).

The principle of "looking for ways to make yourself useful" doesn't apply to any job in society, because for most jobs you are paid to do one specific thing. For grocers it is to stock the shelves with merchandise. For coffee baristas it is to make and sell drinks. For doctors it is to treat sick patients that come into the hospital. And for pharmacists it is to fill and dispense scripts.

The subset of pharmacists that get to do what you're talking about are select pharmacists in hospitals (since inventory management is part of the job description for a PIC), however these are not good examples to point to and say "just innovate like this" because these jobs 1. require institutionalized knowledge and therefore are considered niche jobs and 2. because these jobs are niche they do not apply to the majority of pharmacists and therefore are not scalable to the broader healthcare ecosystem.

For example, "ensuring supplies are on hand" or "doing other non-RPh duties" are things that techs can do and to have a pharmacist do that is featherbedding, it is not plug and play (you can't just hire a random retail pharmacist to do hospital drug purchasing, for example), and you'd only need one or two people to do that for your entire system (not to mention being involved with committees and stuff is 100% not applicable to retail pharmacists anyways).

In contrast, nurses or PAs have baseline technical skill sets that are transferrable across lines of work (charting, handoffs etc) so if there is an increase in demand for ICU nurses then you can easily pull or hire nurses that don't necessarily have a background in that exact speciality to fill the need.

Our country is starting to deploy medical field hospitals and I guarantee you pharmacists will not be involved with that. I also guarantee you that pharmacists will not be administering the COVID-19 vaccines when they do become available. Why? Because we don't have the training to do so. In the hospital world, others have posted about "clinical" pharmacists being pulled from floors/being delegated "busy work," so no matter what front you look at this just goes to show the limited value of pharmacists.

I agree with each and every thing you are saying here. But I am curious why you are saying it ? is it to prove to others who think pharmacists are high and mighty ? Just curious my friend !

 

[penicillinman]

Also as an update, we did have a couple rphs who cover surgery floors whose hours got reduced and “will be working from home” (not sure what it is they will do though)

 

[RedROSE]

Also as an update, we did have a couple rphs who cover surgery floors whose hours got reduced and “will be working from home” (not sure what it is they will do though)

Good point, we have one OR pharmacist, therefore didnt see major changes in staffing.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I agree with each and every thing you are saying here. But I am curious why you are saying it ? is it to prove to others who think pharmacists are high and mighty ? Just curious my friend !

It's all to say that no matter how high and mighty you think you are (be it the "clinical" pharmacists out there who think they're "better" than retail pharmacists or the retail pharmacists who complain about this or that), that at the end of they day we are all expendable so get off your high chair. The profession of pharmacy isn't and hasn't "evolved," if anything it's a parasite that's found hosts in new environments and it's only a matter of time that those hosts figure it out.

 

[farm4real]

AACP was too busy with their "meeting" in Puerto Rico a month ago. Lucinda has to tan and Tom at APHA is busy running one of his primary business. Anyone who thinks these orgs represent the profession is delusional. I get better responses from my state and federal representatives who then put pressure on the BoPs to enact legislation.

Sadly true.....for these “leaders “ Pharmacy organizations are just a six-figure side-hustle

Apparently, the only duties are: make a few recommendations to industry and overlords, call the lip service response “progress”; call pharmacists ignorant if they do not recognize their heroic efforts; create expensive certificates and help approve and defend diploma mills.

Go to APhA website and read the last blog entries....Leadership in action...

 

[PharmD2019Graduate]

In times of crisis such as this COVID-19 pandemic, one only needs to look at who the government, public health agencies and hospitals are interacting with and calling upon to respond to understand the limited role a pharmacist plays in the healthcare ecosystem. I do not make this post to beat a dead horse, but many of the things that have been echoed on this forum are now becoming extremely apparent (if it isn't already apparent).

Some observations I've made through the last few days:

1) Pharmacy is saturated with an oversupply of workers, yet in a time of public health crisis there is no increase in demand for pharmacists to aid in relief efforts because the PharmD curriculum is irrelevant, "pharmacist skill sets" are not transferrable and pharmacists are not recognized as even midlevel providers.

In California, cities are hosting job fairs and hiring qualified/licensed nurses ON THE SPOT because there is a surge in demand for "frontline healthcare staff." Meanwhile, job fairs for pharmacists have been nonexistant and they can't even volunteer with relief efforts because they don't even have the basic medical training to even screen/triage patients. Moreover, I only hear of more and more pharmacists (who work in hospitals) being SENT HOME as opposed to working more hours due to demand. Can you imagine doctors or nurses "working from home" in a time like this?

2) Even if there were an expanded role for pharmacists during this public health crisis, we do not have a voice to represent the issues specific to pharmacy and therefore any progress/relief pharmacists get will be a result of the trickle-down that comes through policy work from non-pharmacy (medical and nursing) national organizations.

If you've been watching the news then you'd know that the President has been meeting with not just legislators, private sector/commercial companies but also healthcare groups to talk through issues that impact them. Today, he met with the heads of the NP groups to listen to their concerns about PPEs and ventilators and I can't help but think that if pharmacists were actually relevant then they should be getting a meeting with the President. The only time pharmacy has been mentioned so far is in the context of developing new therapeutics (which isn't pharmacy) and converting select retail sites to serve as collection sites for corona testing. Tremendous failure by APhA, AACP, ASHP etc to represent our profession and lobby for an increased scope of practice (this is a great time for that) in a time like this.

3. Pharmacy is possibly the healthcare profession (maybe I should call it a pseudo-healthcare profession) with the biggest passive-aggressive whiners in it and most pharmacists lack perspective.

I don't know how many posts I've seen in the last week about the lack of PPEs and how we should be "paid more" because we deal with patients who potentially have corona every day. I've laid out an argument elsewhere that a bag boy at a supermarket is probably exposed to more corona patients than a retail pharmacist so I won't go through that again, but it is statements like these that reveals peoples' true colors and if we all truly went into healthcare/pharmacy to "help people" and not for the paycheck, people would not say things like this. In any industry, the "highest risk" workers are not the ones getting paid the most, and we have it good compared to real providers, so for those that keep complaining about lack of PPE/hazard pay etc., just know that if nurses/physicians aren't even getting adequate protection or pay, then there is no way that pharmacy will get it so stop whining about it.

What do you all think?

I partially agree with you, the part I agree with that APHA AACP ASHP, pharmacy schools, etc. always are trying to market for the pharmacist as being going toward more clinical and all this HOAX. yes, we have residencies but come on in any rotation even if you did not work in a hospital, you can tell that clinical pharmacists are under-valued and under-paid and their opinion rarely matters. It is the TRUTH, pharmacists first place and will always be the retail. you can not compare the amount of medical knowledge between a pharmacist and MD/OD....as a pharmacist we only used to memorize side effects and tons of most likely information that can be accessed easily by a click of a button....NO REAL training to conduct a clinical trial....NO REAL training to really understand the disease.....Pharmacy schools are a big SCAM business....I look down at any pharmacy school Dean or a professor who tries to convince students that it is great to be a clinical pharmacist and it is a great job market if you get a residency or so...well if you get a residency you will find a job in a hospital easier but that does not mean there are tons of them or they actually will need your expertise in a national pandemic because simply our knowledge as pharmacists is less than 20% of MD/OD....our value is pretty much the info that is in the 500 pages of a NAPLEX book (of course we forgot almost half after 2 weeks so I did not count the 1000s pages of rxprep lol)

BUT............................ THE GOOD NEWS that we are over-paid cashiers at retail pharmacies and somehow until now they pay us good 120k or more for new grads and 140k or more for PICs depends on what part of the country you are in.......YES, the job market is saturated but with a little more searching and willing to relocate or live in a small city then you can find a job......Compared to MD and Nurses and PA we have much less job demand but still, I do not know any pharmacist who is unemployed if he/she looking for a job actively and as I said if they are willing to drive a little more than convenience 1 hour sometimes 90 mins drive (if you really stuck and won't relocate)

 

[deleted562805]

I partially agree with you, the part I agree with that APHA AACP ASHP, pharmacy schools, etc. always are trying to market for the pharmacist as being going toward more clinical and all this HOAX. yes, we have residencies but come on in any rotation even if you did not work in a hospital, you can tell that clinical pharmacists are under-valued and under-paid and their opinion rarely matters. It is the TRUTH, pharmacists first place and will always be the retail. you can not compare the amount of medical knowledge between a pharmacist and MD/OD....as a pharmacist we only used to memorize side effects and tons of most likely information that can be accessed easily by a click of a button....NO REAL training to conduct a clinical trial....NO REAL training to really understand the disease.....Pharmacy schools are a big SCAM business....I look down at any pharmacy school Dean or a professor who tries to convince students that it is great to be a clinical pharmacist and it is a great job market if you get a residency or so...well if you get a residency you will find a job in a hospital easier but that does not mean there are tons of them or they actually will need your expertise in a national pandemic because simply our knowledge as pharmacists is less than 20% of MD/OD....our value is pretty much the info that is in the 500 pages of a NAPLEX book (of course we forgot almost half after 2 weeks so I did not count the 1000s pages of rxprep lol)

BUT............................ THE GOOD NEWS that we are over-paid cashiers at retail pharmacies and somehow until now they pay us good 120k or more for new grads and 140k or more for PICs depends on what part of the country you are in.......YES, the job market is saturated but with a little more searching and willing to relocate or live in a small city then you can find a job......Compared to MD and Nurses and PA we have much less job demand but still, I do not know any pharmacist who is unemployed if he/she looking for a job actively and as I said if they are willing to drive a little more than convenience 1 hour sometimes 90 mins drive (if you really stuck and won't relocate)

With respect to pharmacology and pharmacokinetics, pharmacists , especially clinical pharmacists do know more than the average working physician. If the drug class is not within the scope of practice for a physician, most of them will know very little about the drug class.

What is even more scary is having a NP or PA who knows less than physician about diseases and even less pharmacology knowledge than a average working physician operating on a patient

The Physicians writing guidelines have more than 30 years of practice, so they don’t really count for comparison

 

[PharmD2019Graduate]

With respect to pharmacology and pharmacokinetics, pharmacists , especially clinical pharmacists do know more than the average working physician. If the drug class is not within the scope of practice for a physician, most of them will know very little about the drug class.

What is even more scary is having a NP or PA who knows less than physician about diseases and even less pharmacology knowledge than a average working physician operating on a patient

The Physicians writing guidelines have more than 30 years of practice, so they don’t really count for comparison

Well in this regard I am sure CDC has many qualified Pharmacists who have experience clinically and in industry. But 50 to 100 top expertise Clinical/industry Pharmacists will be way more than enough in regard to that matter. BUT as of the general demand, of course, Hospitals will need more MD/OD, Nurses, and PA when facing a pandemic. Pharmacists may be needed like one or 2 more pharmacists per hospital to "verify the Rx" that is all. I do not see how a hospital would need more PharmD and why would they need PharmD in the current situation! what can we really do in a hospital that they would need 10 more pharmacists per hospital? So I can see why the role of the pharmacist is 95% verify an RX. and 5% comes as all other clinical aspects and expertise.

 

[deleted562805]

Well in this regard I am sure CDC has many qualified Pharmacists who have experience clinically and in industry. But 50 to 100 top expertise Clinical/industry Pharmacists will be way more than enough in regard to that matter. BUT as of the general demand, of course, Hospitals will need more MD/OD, Nurses, and PA when facing a pandemic. Pharmacists may be needed like one or 2 more pharmacists per hospital to "verify the Rx" that is all. I do not see how a hospital would need more PharmD and why would they need PharmD in the current situation! what can we really do in a hospital that they would need 10 more pharmacists per hospital? So I can see why the role of the pharmacist is 95% verify an RX. and 5% comes as all other clinical aspects and expertise.

True, in a pandemic, the people in the front lines will be in demand and hospitals will need more of those professions. I wish the pandemic would turn this pharmacy job market around to a positive compared to pre-COVID-19.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

True, in a pandemic, the people in the front lines will be in demand and hospitals will need more of those professions. I wish the pandemic would turn this pharmacy job market around to a positive compared to pre-COVID-19.

All this pandemic is going to do to pharmacy is accelerate the timeline for senior pharmacists to get booted and replaced by new grads (because they are obviously at higher risk of getting sick) and stores to permanently cut hours (and therefore lay off more pharmacists). In other words, this will be a catalyst for wages to drop exponentially over this next year.

 

[deleted562805]

The dual pharmd/pa programs are going to become more prevalent

If pharmacists actually believe in being indispensable, then they should be pushing these programs instead of the residency BS

 

[deleted562805]

In times of crisis such as this COVID-19 pandemic, one only needs to look at who the government, public health agencies and hospitals are interacting with and calling upon to respond to understand the limited role a pharmacist plays in the healthcare ecosystem. I do not make this post to beat a dead horse, but many of the things that have been echoed on this forum are now becoming extremely apparent (if it isn't already apparent).

Some observations I've made through the last few days:

1) Pharmacy is saturated with an oversupply of workers, yet in a time of public health crisis there is no increase in demand for pharmacists to aid in relief efforts because the PharmD curriculum is irrelevant, "pharmacist skill sets" are not transferrable and pharmacists are not recognized as even midlevel providers.

In California, cities are hosting job fairs and hiring qualified/licensed nurses ON THE SPOT because there is a surge in demand for "frontline healthcare staff." Meanwhile, job fairs for pharmacists have been nonexistant and they can't even volunteer with relief efforts because they don't even have the basic medical training to even screen/triage patients. Moreover, I only hear of more and more pharmacists (who work in hospitals) being SENT HOME as opposed to working more hours due to demand. Can you imagine doctors or nurses "working from home" in a time like this?

2) Even if there were an expanded role for pharmacists during this public health crisis, we do not have a voice to represent the issues specific to pharmacy and therefore any progress/relief pharmacists get will be a result of the trickle-down that comes through policy work from non-pharmacy (medical and nursing) national organizations.

If you've been watching the news then you'd know that the President has been meeting with not just legislators, private sector/commercial companies but also healthcare groups to talk through issues that impact them. Today, he met with the heads of the NP groups to listen to their concerns about PPEs and ventilators and I can't help but think that if pharmacists were actually relevant then they should be getting a meeting with the President. The only time pharmacy has been mentioned so far is in the context of developing new therapeutics (which isn't pharmacy) and converting select retail sites to serve as collection sites for corona testing. Tremendous failure by APhA, AACP, ASHP etc to represent our profession and lobby for an increased scope of practice (this is a great time for that) in a time like this.

3. Pharmacy is possibly the healthcare profession (maybe I should call it a pseudo-healthcare profession) with the biggest passive-aggressive whiners in it and most pharmacists lack perspective.

I don't know how many posts I've seen in the last week about the lack of PPEs and how we should be "paid more" because we deal with patients who potentially have corona every day. I've laid out an argument elsewhere that a bag boy at a supermarket is probably exposed to more corona patients than a retail pharmacist so I won't go through that again, but it is statements like these that reveals peoples' true colors and if we all truly went into healthcare/pharmacy to "help people" and not for the paycheck, people would not say things like this. In any industry, the "highest risk" workers are not the ones getting paid the most, and we have it good compared to real providers, so for those that keep complaining about lack of PPE/hazard pay etc., just know that if nurses/physicians aren't even getting adequate protection or pay, then there is no way that pharmacy will get it so stop whining about it.

What do you all think?

4. Pharmacy as a profession are not good at lobbying for what their role should be. Pharmacists have allowed people who are not pharmacists determine the role of a pharmacist.

 

[wagrxm2000]

With a title like this I knew @Pharmacy is a Scam would be a contributor.

Never change my friend, always stay negative

 

[deleted562805]

The issue isn't that we are complete duds to the system. The issue is that we are duds in the value we bring relative to how much we cost, which is why salaries keep dropping as people figure out we are just glorified techs and why something has got to give (and also why "clinical" pharmacists keep looking for ways to make themselves "useful" such as being on committees-- do you think doctors or nurses have to "think of ways to make themselves useful to a hospital?" 100% nope).

The principle of "looking for ways to make yourself useful" doesn't apply to every job in society, because for most jobs you are paid to do one specific thing. For grocers it is to stock the shelves with merchandise. For coffee baristas it is to make and sell drinks. For doctors it is to treat sick patients that come into the hospital. And for pharmacists it is to fill and dispense scripts.

The subset of pharmacists that get to do what you're talking about are select pharmacists in hospitals (since inventory management is part of the job description for a PIC), however these are not good examples to point to and say "just innovate like this" because these jobs 1. require institutionalized knowledge and therefore are considered niche jobs and 2. because these jobs are niche they do not apply to the majority of pharmacists and therefore are not scalable to the broader healthcare ecosystem.

For example, "ensuring supplies are on hand" or "doing other non-RPh duties" are things that techs can do and to have a pharmacist do that is featherbedding, it is not plug and play (you can't just hire a random retail pharmacist to do hospital drug purchasing, for example), and you'd only need one or two people to do that for your entire system (not to mention being involved with committees and stuff is 100% not applicable to retail pharmacists anyways).

In contrast, nurses or PAs have baseline technical skill sets that are transferrable across lines of work (charting, handoffs, taking vitals, making an IV line etc) so if there is an increase in demand for ICU nurses then you can easily pull or hire nurses that don't necessarily have a background in that exact speciality to fill the need because skills are transferrable and standardized. Meanwhile a retail pharmacist wouldn't know anything about inpatient drugs, a hospital pharmacist wouldn't know anything about outpatient drugs (besides the ones they see in their patient population) and a industry pharmacist wouldn't know anything clinical at all, so the dichotomy of even GENERAL DRUG KNOWLEDGE is so wide between pharmacists that there's no point in even going beyond that when discussing "transferrable skills" in the healthcare environment.

Our country is starting to deploy medical field hospitals and I guarantee you pharmacists will not be involved with that. I also guarantee you that pharmacists will not be administering the COVID-19 vaccines when they do become available. Why? Because we don't have the training to do so. In the hospital world, others have posted about "clinical" pharmacists being pulled from floors/being delegated "busy work," so no matter what front you look at this just goes to show the limited value of pharmacists.

Well, pharmacists also limit themselves by creating false barriers known as residencies, which are not needed in the pharmacy world and most of the “clinical jobs” offered on the job training 10 years ago. You can’t blame the hospitals system when the profession as a whole limits themselves through bs residencies and fellowships. BTW, APHA did send legislation to the Senate about utilizing pharmacists more in this crisis, but it was ignored by the Senate.

 

[deleted562805]

It's all to say that no matter how high and mighty you think you are (be it the "clinical" pharmacists out there who think they're "better" than retail pharmacists or the retail pharmacists who complain about this or that), that at the end of they day we are all expendable so get off your high chair. The profession of pharmacy isn't and hasn't "evolved," if anything it's a parasite that's found hosts in new environments and it's only a matter of time that those hosts figure it out.

I think the hosts “ hospital admin” already know pharmacy is expensive overhead without any way to generate revenue

 

[Hedgehog32]

All this pandemic is going to do to pharmacy is accelerate the timeline for senior pharmacists to get booted and replaced by new grads (because they are obviously at higher risk of getting sick) and stores to permanently cut hours (and therefore lay off more pharmacists). In other words, this will be a catalyst for wages to drop exponentially over this next year.

Just for the heck of it, how low do you foresee salaries for both hospital and retail pharmacists plummeting after the pandemic has resolved?

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Just for the heck of it, how low do you foresee salaries for both hospital and retail pharmacists plummeting after the pandemic has resolved?

Can't really predict it but my overall prediction is that retail salaries will stabilize at $25-30/hr (just above what a tech makes) while hospital will follow a bimodal distribution. Some will make <$40/hr, others will make >$60hr. Hospital salaries will be higher than retail for the time being (due to unions and stuff) but will also be gradually dropping.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Can't really predict it but my overall prediction is that retail salaries will stabilize at $25-30/hr (just above what a tech makes) while hospital will follow a bimodal distribution. Some will make <$40/hr, others will make >$60hr. Hospital salaries will be higher than retail for the time being (due to unions and stuff) but will also be gradually dropping.

Thanks. Just out of curiosity, when would you guess the profession will arrive at these new salary figures by? Do you think it could be as soon as this summer or early next fall (around the time the c/o 2020 graduates are starting to get licensed)?

Also, do you think the hospital pharmacists who will be earning $60+/hour will be the clinical specialists who have completed residencies, while staff pharmacists who primarily perform order entry-related work will be the ones making less than $40/hour?

 

[wagrxm2000]

Thanks. Just out of curiosity, when would you guess the profession will arrive at these new salary figures by? Do you think it could be as soon as this summer or early next fall (around the time the c/o 2020 graduates are starting to get licensed)?

Also, do you think the hospital pharmacists who will be earning $60+/hour will be the clinical specialists who have completed residencies, while staff pharmacists who primarily perform order entry-related work will be the ones making less than $40/hour?

You realize this guy doesn't know anything and is always negative right? I wouldn't take the opinion of a constant pessimist.

We went up due to demand and will fall due to supply. It's that simple. Based solely on inflation and normal salaries we should only be making mid to low $40s right now.

So I could easily see $40/hour in YOUR future.

 

[Hedgehog32]

You realize this guy doesn't know anything and is always negative right? I wouldn't take the opinion of a constant pessimist.

We went up due to demand and will fall due to supply. It's that simple. Based solely on inflation and normal salaries we should only be making mid to low $40s right now.

So I could easily see $40/hour in YOUR future.

The hospital I used to work as an intern at was paying new pharmacists $40/hour back in 2018, so I wouldn't be surprised if it goes even lower.

... Also, do you realize that you advised me not to take Pharmacy Is A Scam's salary predictions seriously but then basically agreed with him (at least on one of his numbers)?

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Thanks. Just out of curiosity, when would you guess the profession will arrive at these new salary figures by? Do you think it could be as soon as this summer or early next fall (around the time the c/o 2020 graduates are starting to get licensed)?

Also, do you think the hospital pharmacists who will be earning $60+/hour will be the clinical specialists who have completed residencies, while staff pharmacists who primarily perform order entry-related work will be the ones making less than $40/hour?

Again, there's no way to predict it but it won't reach rock bottom in one year. All I know is that it will continue to drop for at least the next several years until it reaches equilibrium. To borrow a pharmacy concept, once you start taking a drug it takes 4-5 half lives to reach steady state so if I had to put a number on it, then since 2019 was the inflection point, 2019 + 4-5 years = 2024 is when salaries will stabilize. Of course, this doesn't account for further job elimination due to automation so it might be sooner than that.

To your other question, yes I would generally categorize it like that, however it's not a matter of residency or no residency at that point because at some point 90+% of all hospital pharmacists are going to have residencies so it's not going to be a question of whether residency = more earning potential anymore.

 

[mentos]

Thanks. Just out of curiosity, when would you guess the profession will arrive at these new salary figures by? Do you think it could be as soon as this summer or early next fall (around the time the c/o 2020 graduates are starting to get licensed)?

Also, do you think the hospital pharmacists who will be earning $60+/hour will be the clinical specialists who have completed residencies, while staff pharmacists who primarily perform order entry-related work will be the ones making less than $40/hour?

You realize this guy doesn't know anything and is always negative right? I wouldn't take the opinion of a constant pessimist.

We went up due to demand and will fall due to supply. It's that simple. Based solely on inflation and normal salaries we should only be making mid to low $40s right now.

So I could easily see $40/hour in YOUR future.

He's not wrong, it's already happening.

Emergency hire pharmacist $25/hr:

Local hospital needs emergency pharm staff

I heard a local hospital was in need of emergency hires so I checked out their website: Looks promising! Let’s look how much techs can earn in an emergency... Not bad! How about pharmacists? JFC. I guess it’s not much of an emergency...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[wagrxm2000]

The hospital I used to work as an intern at was paying new pharmacists $40/hour back in 2018, so I wouldn't be surprised if it goes even lower.

... Also, do you realize that you advised me not to take Pharmacy Is A Scam's salary predictions seriously but then basically agreed with him (at least on one of his numbers)?

Yeah I know but you have to understand the person you're getting info from.

This guy hasn't said a positive thing about our profession and it is very disappointing.

The $25/hour is too low. If somehow we get to that point, demand would come back again.

Remember an extremely high percentage of grads are solely in this profession for the money. You can get $25/hour easily in many areas. New grads would plummet.

 

[wagrxm2000]

He's not wrong, it's already happening.

Emergency hire pharmacist $25/hr:

Local hospital needs emergency pharm staff

I heard a local hospital was in need of emergency hires so I checked out their website: Looks promising! Let’s look how much techs can earn in an emergency... Not bad! How about pharmacists? JFC. I guess it’s not much of an emergency...

forums.studentdoctor.net

People are always going to take advantage of over supply, when chains pay $25/hour you can say it's official.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Yeah I know but you have to understand the person you're getting info from.

This guy hasn't said a positive thing about our profession and it is very disappointing.

The $25/hour is too low. If somehow we get to that point, demand would come back again.

Remember an extremely high percentage of grads are solely in this profession for the money. You can get $25/hour easily in many areas. New grads would plummet.

I generate content and provide accurate insights, while all you do is flame others on this sub and never post anything productive. Nobody says you have to like what I post but I sure as hell aren't going to be pumping sunshine on this sub since students get enough brainwashing from their schools.

In regards to salaries, you clearly aren't keeping with the times nor do you understand basic math. There have already been several independents hiring full time pharmacists at $20-25/hr in the NE or SE, and many chains are hiring new grads on in the mid-$40's/hr x 24 hours which is equivalent to a $25/hr x 40hr job. So keep debating the semantics of this how you will but as it stands most retail jobs are now at the $60k/year and they're still dropping fast.

Your "$25/hr is too low, [nobody would take it so] demand will come back again" comment is also ignorant of the fact that the supply curve is not going to change for at least the next 4 years so this is an invalid argument. The "supply" in your case would be the number of pharmacists looking for jobs who are willing to take $25 but with a 0% job growth in the next 10 years (and it really is -50% or more for retail where this hourly stuff matters but I'll be generous and give you 0%), it doesn't matter if you have all 15,000 new grads being willing to take $25 or 5,000 or even 1,000. You just need one person to be willing to take the next available job at that price point and the deal is done. And quite frankly even if you somehow managed to convince all the new grads not to take that salary, we haven't even discussed foreign pharmacists who are volunteering or working for no pay who would gladly take a $25 salary because relative to their home countries that is more than how much a pharmacist would make anyways. So yes, I can back up my arguments and am not just throwing random numbers out there to sensationalize, unlike you who speak only with ambiguity and in generalizations.

 

[wagrxm2000]

I generate content and provide accurate insights, while all you do is flame others on this sub and never post anything productive. Nobody says you have to like what I post but I sure as hell aren't going to be pumping sunshine on this sub since students get enough brainwashing from their schools.

In regards to salaries, you clearly aren't keeping with the times nor do you understand basic math. There have already been several independents hiring full time pharmacists at $20-25/hr in the NE or SE, and many chains are hiring new grads on in the mid-$40's/hr x 24 hours which is equivalent to a $25/hr x 40hr job. So keep debating the semantics of this how you will but as it stands most retail jobs are now at the $60k/year and they're still dropping fast.

Your "$25/hr is too low, [nobody would take it so] demand will come back again" comment is also ignorant of the fact that the supply curve is not going to change for at least the next 4 years so this is an invalid argument. The "supply" in your case would be the number of pharmacists looking for jobs who are willing to take $25 but with a 0% job growth in the next 10 years (and it really is -50% or more for retail where this hourly stuff matters but I'll be generous and give you 0%), it doesn't matter if you have all 15,000 new grads being willing to take $25 or 5,000 or even 1,000. You just need one person to be willing to take the next available job at that price point and the deal is done. And quite frankly even if you somehow managed to convince all the new grads not to take that salary, we haven't even discussed foreign pharmacists who are volunteering or working for no pay who would gladly take a $25 salary because relative to their home countries that is more than how much a pharmacist would make anyways. So yes, I can back up my arguments and am not just throwing random numbers out there to sensationalize, unlike you who speak only with ambiguity and in generalizations.

Did I hit a nerve?

What do you think is going to happen when schools start telling students that starting rates are $25/hour but we are going to charge you $200k to get a degree? Schools won't be able to keep up this lie forever.

How many will sign up for that?

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Did I hit a nerve?

What do you think is going to happen when schools start telling students that starting rates are $25/hour but we are going to charge you $200k to get a degree? Schools won't be able to keep up this lie forever.

How many will sign up for that?

Schools aren't ever going to tell students that. Heck, schools don't even tell students the field is saturated. They just keep going on and on about "exciting new opportunities in clinical pharmacy" and "the field is evolving and there is a demand for pharmacists in different sectors" etc etc.

It's the trick of any trade, sale or debate. Focus on the positives and ignore/talk around the negatives.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Schools aren't ever going to tell students that. Heck, schools don't even tell students the field is saturated. They just keep going on and on about "exciting new opportunities in clinical pharmacy" and "the field is evolving and there is a demand for pharmacists in different sectors" etc etc.

It's the trick of any trade, sale or debate. Focus on the positives and ignore/talk around the negatives.

My number is inflationary based before the huge demand occurred. Will we go under $40/hour? Sure that is possible but in the end either demand will bring that number up or schools will be forced to lower costs.

They can currently keep the lie going because pharmacists still make well over $100k. Anywhere you look you still see somewhere around $110 and $120k reported.

I'm not denying or arguing actual yearly salaries vs hourly rates. But $40/hour is what I see in the near future whether it's for 30 hours or 40 hours per week.

 

[deleted562805]

My number is inflationary based before the huge demand occurred. Will we go under $40/hour? Sure that is possible but in the end either demand will bring that number up or schools will be forced to lower costs.

They can currently keep the lie going because pharmacists still make well over $100k. Anywhere you look you still see somewhere around $110 and $120k reported.

I'm not denying or arguing actual yearly salaries vs hourly rates. But $40/hour is what I see in the near future whether it's for 30 hours or 40 hours per week.

In your words, how do you suppose the demand will go up?

 

[deleted562805]

All decentralized RPhs were pulled from floors at my health system. They are currently doing their "clinical" work remotely.

Look, ambulatory and clinical pharmacists are important. But when SHTF it's quite obvious what's most important, and that's dispensing. There will be furloughs of clinical pharmacists in 4 weeks unless we have a miracle. Health systems won't be able to support employees (not just pharmacists) who aren't able to work. Nurses will be able quickly adjust from elective OR (ortho, etc.) back to med/surg. Pharmacists' skill sets aren't as easily transferable. I'm sure you know plenty of clinical pharmacists who can't verify an order in the eMAR or check an IV.

And the reason why it is not easily transferable is due to implementing residencies. There is no reason for a Pharmacy residency if you can’t do the baseline tasks of a staff pharmacist.

 

[wagrxm2000]

In your words, how do you suppose the demand will go up?

I don't expect demand to go up, I just expect more equilibrium.

 

[owlegrad]

Schools aren't ever going to tell students that. Heck, schools don't even tell students the field is saturated. They just keep going on and on about "exciting new opportunities in clinical pharmacy" and "the field is evolving and there is a demand for pharmacists in different sectors" etc etc.

It's the trick of any trade, sale or debate. Focus on the positives and ignore/talk around the negatives.

I feel like this is true. When you consider that pharm tech programs exist (not to mention nonsense degrees) it’s not hard to imagine.