The limited value of the pharmacy profession is now being put on full display

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Really? Why would I make that up?
She graduated in 2017 and worked at rite aid for a year, made high 50s.
Another friend worked in that same area that graduated in 2015 with me and started at 56 hourly.

Ask for a paycheck then.

Zero chance that's from a major chain.

Also look what you did, you got @Pharmacy is a Scam all excited.

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Sorry it doesn’t make sense to you but this is Walgreens I’m talking about. They are the first to drastically reduce wage for pharmacists in that area.

Right the company I work for. I also live in the Midwest. I keep in touch with my past students. I would have heard about a drastic drop if it happened last fall.

Don't get me wrong, we will hit $45 but it's not going to be that quickly. Right now we're still in the 50s.
 
ICU nurses are in the drivers seat.Pay in affected areas 100 per hour.It is only a matter of time when RN salaries overtake Pharm D salaries?
 
Meanwhile PA's and NP's getting 13K a week to staff the front lines....

 
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Meanwhile PA's and NP's getting 13K a week to staff the front lines....



Just unreal. A PA or NP could complete two month-long assignments (assuming the opportunity is there for that long), earn, $104k, and either not work for the remainder of the year or just work part-time. Seeing opportunities like this one for PAs/NPs is especially difficult as a soon-to-be new graduate pharmacist who has been told by hospital DOPs in Bethel, AK that they're only considering experienced pharmacists for all pharmacist positions.
 
Just unreal. A PA or NP could complete two month-long assignments (assuming the opportunity is there for that long), earn, $104k, and either not work for the remainder of the year or just work part-time. Seeing opportunities like this one for PAs/NPs is especially difficult as a soon-to-be new graduate pharmacist who has been told by hospital DOPs in Bethel, AK that they're only considering experienced pharmacists for all pharmacist positions.

This is heartbreaking for me as an unemployed pharmacist
 
Do not worry, APhA is issuing statements.
 
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Pharmacy schools will only cut back if other health professionals start out earning pharmacists.Why go into such debt to be a pharmacist when
you can get out in 4 years as a RN and pull in just as much. The wage differential is becoming smaller and smaller.
 
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ummm......



Urgently hiring
Sorry for the short details but just looking at the store discount I have items no one else can get in to protect you and your family. I know the salary doesn't look the best but things can change.Matters on how hard the work day(s) might be. Most likely it will only be 1 day but it can be up to 2 days.Please call me at (570) 956-7626 ask for john.
Job Type: Temporary
Salary: $25.00 to $30.00 /hour
Experience:
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  • pharmacist: 10 years (Preferred)
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License:
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Additional Compensation:
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Benefits:
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Schedule:
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Work Remotely:
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Right the company I work for. I also live in the Midwest. I keep in touch with my past students. I would have heard about a drastic drop if it happened last fall.

Don't get me wrong, we will hit $45 but it's not going to be that quickly. Right now we're still in the 50s.
I can direct message you the exact district and DM if you want. This person is someone I work with right now and she only told me that after I told her my highest salary with Walgreens before I left..
 
I can direct message you the exact district and DM if you want. This person is someone I work with right now and she only told me that after I told her my highest salary with Walgreens before I left..

Sure, I'll look into it
 
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Did I hit a nerve?

What do you think is going to happen when schools start telling students that starting rates are $25/hour but we are going to charge you $200k to get a degree? Schools won't be able to keep up this lie forever.

How many will sign up for that?
You don’t know what you’re talking about. I know for a fact on the east coast there have been postings by independents for $25/hour and they have filled them. Also the salary by the chains in some parts on the east coast is already starting salary in the $40s per hour. Pennsylvania, Maryland, Florida and probably many other states on the east coast. With full time being 30/32 hours a week, it’s just not worth it.
 
You don’t know what you’re talking about. I know for a fact on the east coast there have been postings by independents for $25/hour and they have filled them. Also the salary by the chains in some parts on the east coast is already starting salary in the $40s per hour. Pennsylvania, Maryland, Florida and probably many other states on the east coast. With full time being 30/32 hours a week, it’s just not worth it.

Independents aren't chains......

Let's see these so called offers
 
Here is a summary of the last 3 pages for anyone who's too lazy to browse through.

A: It's doomsday, everybody run!!!!
B: No!.....not yet.
 
There is so much stupidity in this thread.

The dual pharmd/pa programs are going to become more prevalent

Wrong. There is literally no advantage to being a PharmD/PA over just being a PA. Programs who offer both are taking advantage of people who had too bad of grades to get into a regular stand-alone program. There may be a small market for this, just like there is a market for Caribbean medical schools, but overall there will be very few programs offering a combo PharmD/PA.

Pharmacists' skill sets aren't as easily transferable. I'm sure you know plenty of clinical pharmacists who can't verify an order in the eMAR or check an IV.

This is sad (and the stupidity is in the clinical pharmacists who can't verify orders or check IV's. I get that they might be a little rusty, but it's like riding a bike, they should be able to quickly jump back into it. If they can't, that speaks poorly of their school and residency.

Just for the heck of it, how low do you foresee salaries for both hospital and retail pharmacists plummeting after the pandemic has resolved?

Depends on how many pharmacists die of COVID. :alien::alien::alien:

Can't really predict it but my overall prediction is that retail salaries will stabilize at $25-30/hr (just above what a tech makes) while hospital will follow a bimodal distribution. Some will make <$40/hr, others will make >$60hr. Hospital salaries will be higher than retail for the time being (due to unions and stuff) but will also be gradually dropping.

California is the only state where hospitals pharmacists make more than retail pharmacists (because CA is one of the few places where pharmacists are unionized.) Retail salaries have always been higher then hospital, and they always will be. Because retail is almost all *for profit*, and a good portion of hospitals are *non profit*. The only reason hospital salaries are currently as high as they are, is because hospitals had to greatly up their pharmacist salaries during the shortage of the 2000's, in order to get any pharmacists to work for them. It was not uncommon then, to go to a retail interview, get a job offer in writing, show it to management and ask for a raise. Management would never be able to match the retail offer, but they would give across the board raises, because they realize $10 - $15/hr more would cause them to lose a lot of pharmacists.

STOP using foreign pharmacists in your argument. You obviously don't know anything about them. Have you ever seen any employer sponsored green card for a pharmacist?

This is so true! Almost no employer work sponsors pharmacists anymore, because the paperwork isn't worth it unless there is a real need, and there is obviously no need as there is no shortage of pharmacists in the US.

LMAO, you did not and do not need peer-reviewed pubs to get a green card as a retail pharmacist

Yeah, I don't think this was ever true. But no chains are sponsoring foreign pharmacists these days, they have stopped sponsoring the ones who were already here and working.

Many pharmacists work for 30 years and they got nothing to their names besides their primary residence. They spend, spend, spend. The stock market just crashed. These pharmacists are not retiring any time soon.
Want to have financial freedom? You need to save > 50% of your income. There is no way around it. @ the end of the day, you are just a pharmacist.

This is true. But the other side of the coin, there are always pharmacists who die young. I can think of several pharmacists I've worked with throughout the years who died young (<50 years.) At least one even in their early 20's. Sure maybe statistically, I'm likely to live to old age and need to retire. But realistically? I don't regret my decision to save a moderate minimum for retire, and enjoy my living in the present.

Just unreal. A PA or NP could complete two month-long assignments (assuming the opportunity is there for that long), earn, $104k, and either not work for the remainder of the year or just work part-time. Seeing opportunities like this one for PAs/NPs is especially difficult as a soon-to-be new graduate pharmacist who has been told by hospital DOPs in Bethel, AK that they're only considering experienced pharmacists for all pharmacist positions.

Umm....you do realize the average PA/NP does not earn that? They are offering that much, because they need them to working with highly infectious patients with minimal protective gear. It's called hazard pay. Sure, they will make bank if they survive it, but some of them are going to die. It's a lottery where the loser gets death, and many people would rather not play the lottery, that is why they have to pay so much to get people to agree to play it.


And as for the OP....like other's have mentioned, what does the coronavirus have to do with pharmacist worth? Nobody is hiring physical therapists or sending them to the front lines either, it doesn't mean physical therapy don't have worth. You can make the argument that in a "war-time" situation, the pharmacist isn't needed, but you could say that about ALOT of jobs. Which is why so many non-pharmacist people aren't working AT ALL now. It doesn't mean that there is a real need and want for the goods and services those jobs provide. It just means in a "war-time" survival situation, nobody is focusing on those goods and services. There is no reason to think we will stay in this "war-time" situation forever. The absolute worst estimate I've heard is 18 months, but I think it's likely things will stabilize before then.
 
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Just unreal. A PA or NP could complete two month-long assignments (assuming the opportunity is there for that long), earn, $104k, and either not work for the remainder of the year or just work part-time. Seeing opportunities like this one for PAs/NPs is especially difficult as a soon-to-be new graduate pharmacist who has been told by hospital DOPs in Bethel, AK that they're only considering experienced pharmacists for all pharmacist positions.

Why is this unreal? PAs, NPs, ICU RNs are literally risking their lives right now. Do you want to be in a tiny room with Covid positive patients all day without proper PPE? These healthcare providers are literally holding their patients' hands as they watch them take their last breath and die. Some might die or might survive with permanent lung damage or you might be lucky and live, who knows? Some might go home and infect their family and the worst can happen and they would have to live with that guilt.

Meanwhile pharmacists stand behind a screen and don't even have to touch a patient and get to stand 6 ft away. And they complain about others who are doing real work cause they only care about money. That is the part that is unreal.
 
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There is so much stupidity in this thread.



Wrong. There is literally no advantage to being a PharmD/PA over just being a PA. Programs who offer both are taking advantage of people who had too bad of grades to get into a regular stand-alone program. There may be a small market for this, just like there is a market for Caribbean medical schools, but overall there will be very few programs offering a combo PharmD/PA.



This is sad (and the stupidity is in the clinical pharmacists who can't verify orders or check IV's. I get that they might be a little rusty, but it's like riding a bike, they should be able to quickly jump back into it. If they can't, that speaks poorly of their school and residency.



Depends on how many pharmacists die of COVID. :alien::alien::alien:



California is the only state where hospitals pharmacists make more than retail pharmacists (because CA is one of the few places where pharmacists are unionized.) Retail salaries have always been higher then hospital, and they always will be. Because retail is almost all *for profit*, and a good portion of hospitals are *non profit*. The only reason hospital salaries are currently as high as they are, is because hospitals had to greatly up their pharmacist salaries during the shortage of the 2000's, in order to get any pharmacists to work for them. It was not uncommon then, to go to a retail interview, get a job offer in writing, show it to management and ask for a raise. Management would never be able to match the retail offer, but they would give across the board raises, because they realize $10 - $15/hr more would cause them to lose a lot of pharmacists.



This is so true! Almost no employer work sponsors pharmacists anymore, because the paperwork isn't worth it unless there is a real need, and there is obviously no need as there is no shortage of pharmacists in the US.



Yeah, I don't think this was ever true. But no chains are sponsoring foreign pharmacists these days, they have stopped sponsoring the ones who were already here and working.



This is true. But the other side of the coin, there are always pharmacists who die young. I can think of several pharmacists I've worked with throughout the years who died young (<50 years.) At least one even in their early 20's. Sure maybe statistically, I'm likely to live to old age and need to retire. But realistically? I don't regret my decision to save a moderate minimum for retire, and enjoy my living in the present.



Umm....you do realize the average PA/NP does not earn that? They are offering that much, because they need them to working with highly infectious patients with minimal protective gear. It's called hazard pay. Sure, they will make bank if they survive it, but some of them are going to die. It's a lottery where the loser gets death, and many people would rather not play the lottery, that is why they have to pay so much to get people to agree to play it.


And as for the OP....like other's have mentioned, what does the coronavirus have to do with pharmacist worth? Nobody is hiring physical therapists or sending them to the front lines either, it doesn't mean physical therapy don't have worth. You can make the argument that in a "war-time" situation, the pharmacist isn't needed, but you could say that about ALOT of jobs. Which is why so many non-pharmacist people aren't working AT ALL now. It doesn't mean that there is a real need and want for the goods and services those jobs provide. It just means in a "war-time" survival situation, nobody is focusing on those goods and services. There is no reason to think we will stay in this "war-time" situation forever. The absolute worst estimate I've heard is 18 months, but I think it's likely things will stabilize before then.

You're right that the companies willing to pay PAs and NPs $100k+ to work for 2 months in high infection rate areas are offering hazard pay, but even before the coronavirus outbreak had even hit China, the hospital I used to work as a pharmacy intern at was offering $75/hr plus benefits and an extra $250 to work on a Saturday or Sunday. That's still significantly more than the $42/hr the pharmacists at the same hospital start out at (unless the pharmacists I used to work with who divulged that salary figure are lying to me).
 
Why is this unreal? PAs, NPs, ICU RNs are literally risking their lives right now. Do you want to be in a tiny room with Covid positive patients all day without proper PPE? These healthcare providers are literally holding their patients' hands as they watch them take their last breath and die. You might die or you might survive with permanent lung damage or you might be lucky and live, who knows? You might go home and infect your family and the worst can happen to them and you would have to live with that guilt.

Meanwhile pharmacists don't even have to touch a patient and get to stand 6 ft away. And they complain cause they only care about money. That is the part that is unreal.

Nobody's arguing that the PAs and NPs being offered that money are possibly risking their lives to do so. It's more about the fact that even in a crisis/pandemic scenario like the country is experiencing now, pharmacists STILL aren't in demand basically anywhere in the country.

And what's wrong with pharmacists caring about making money? The people I know who are about to graduate from PA who each have several job offers are using salary/benefits as the primary criteria for choosing which job offer to take. It's not like pharmacists are the only healthcare professionals who care about money. BTW, for thousands of pharmacists (or soon-to-be pharmacists), it's not money they're complaining about; it's about the fact that they can't find jobs.
 
Nobody's arguing that the PAs and NPs being offered that money are possibly risking their lives to do so. It's more about the fact that even in a crisis/pandemic scenario like the country is experiencing now, pharmacists STILL aren't in demand basically anywhere in the country.

And what's wrong with pharmacists caring about making money? The people I know who are about to graduate from PA who each have several job offers are using salary/benefits as the primary criteria for choosing which job offer to take. It's not like pharmacists are the only healthcare professionals who care about money. BTW, for thousands of pharmacists (or soon-to-be pharmacists), it's not money they're complaining about; it's about the fact that they can't find jobs.

The new grads are not in demand because they're not needed during this pandemic. If all of these new grads did a simple Google search 4 years ago they would know that there are no jobs. They have no one to blame but themselves. It's ridiculous that they are complaining.
 
The new grads are not in demand because they're not needed during this pandemic. If all of these new grads did a simple Google search 4 years ago they would know that there are no jobs. They have no one to blame but themselves. It's ridiculous that they are complaining.

True, the pharmacist job market has been saturated for a while, but things weren't quite this bad 4 years ago. For example, in my city (an objectively undesirable mid-sized city in the southeast that routinely makes "Worst Cities to Live In"-type lists) back in 2016, a search for pharmacist jobs on Indeed.com would pull up 4-5 pages worth of results, because even when much of the rest of the country was saturated, very few people were still willing to move here for a job. Why do you think the standard (I.e., pre-pandemic) rate for PAs and NPs a few months ago was already at $75/hr + benefits + $500 weekend differential? Because nobody wants to move to a lousy town like this...

... EXCEPT pharmacists, who are now faced with a job market that is truly so abysmal they'll move literally anywhere they have to in order to find a job. But anyways, I was just making the point that things weren't quite so bad 4 years ago, although I agree with you overall.
 
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And as for the OP....like other's have mentioned, what does the coronavirus have to do with pharmacist worth? Nobody is hiring physical therapists or sending them to the front lines either, it doesn't mean physical therapy don't have worth. You can make the argument that in a "war-time" situation, the pharmacist isn't needed, but you could say that about ALOT of jobs. Which is why so many non-pharmacist people aren't working AT ALL now. It doesn't mean that there is a real need and want for the goods and services those jobs provide. It just means in a "war-time" survival situation, nobody is focusing on those goods and services. There is no reason to think we will stay in this "war-time" situation forever. The absolute worst estimate I've heard is 18 months, but I think it's likely things will stabilize before then.

Because pharmacists are the only healthcare workers that try to be fake doctors so they should be graded to that standard while physical therapists shouldn't. The premise of the original post is that pharmacists are NOT essential to the healthcare team and the coronavirus ordeal is exposing the profession for what it is. Physical therapists, occupational therapists, dentists, optometrists, psychologists etc. all provide niche services and you can generally consider them to be "healthcare workers", yet you don't hear them crying out for provider status, being included in the healthcare team, saying they should be getting "hazard pay" etc. like pharmacists are making a big fuss about. This is because:

1) The general public recognizes what they do
2) They can practice independently and bill independently (i.e. you don't need a referral from a physician to go see your dentist)
3) Because their services are niche/unique, they have turf no other healthcare worker can ever step on
4) The value of their services can never be diminished by "midlevel" workers in their specialty such as assistants or technicians. Yes, dentists and optometrists have assistants/techs who help out with screening, cleaning supplies etc. but there will never exist a world where you go to your dentist's office and a tech will perform the actual cleaning of your teeth and consultation/recommendation on what to do, let alone do a root canal, retainers or surgery. In other words, in these professions the delineation between what the professional does versus what the "midlevel" does is extremely black and white.

All this in contrast to pharmacists, who also "provide niche services", but:

1) The general public does NOT know what pharmacists do
2) They can NOT (and will never) practice without dependencies on physicians
3) The only "unique" service they provide is the dispensing of drugs; everything else is an intrusion on someone else' turf: MTM, ambulatory care, rounding with the healthcare team, P&T committees, giving flu shots etc. Matter of fact, like many have said, during this pandemic most "clinical pharmacist" hours have been cut/reassigned and not increased, which speaks to the fact that pharmacist services are nonessential. So strip these services away and pharmacists are left with dispensing functions. Which is going back to square one in the 1900s where pharmacists only counted pills in the basement. Gee, guess this profession hasn't evolved, after all.
4) The value of their services are continually being diminished by technicians, and the line between pharmacists and their "midlevel" counterparts is extremely gray. In other words, a pharmacist performs 95% similar responsibilities as a pharm tech (especially in retail), while a physical therapy assistant or dental assistant performs <50% similar responsibilities as a physical therapist or dentist.

So comparing pharmacists to physical therapists is comparing apples to oranges.
 
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You think the dentist does the cleaning?!

Man you really undercut your argument sometimes.
My dentists always do the cleaning. They do have an assistant to help them in the chair, for doing water/suction/bringing tools though.
 
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You think the dentist does the cleaning?!

Man you really undercut your argument sometimes.

Mine does. They have those high pressure sonic water spray things now instead of the old metal picks so it's quick and easy. I think he enjoys chatting with his patients so he likes cleaning. His assistant takes x-rays and polishes.
 
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My dentists always do the cleaning. They do have an assistant to help them in the chair, for doing water/suction/bringing tools though.

Cool. Allow me to assure you a world exists where you go to the dentist and the hygienist does the cleaning. In fact I have never had a dentist do the cleaning and it blows my mind that it is apparently not that uncommon.
 
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Cool. Allow me to assure you a world exists where you go to the dentist and the hygienist does the cleaning. In fact I have never had a dentist do the cleaning and it blows my mind that it is apparently not that uncommon.

Yeah. The hygienist almost always does the cleaning (and I've been to 6 dentists in the last 10 years due to moving). But it depends on the dentist I guess.

Because pharmacists are the only healthcare workers that try to be fake doctors so they should be graded to that standard while physical therapists shouldn't.

Obviously you've never spoken to a chiropractor.

Physical therapists, occupational therapists, dentists, optometrists, psychologists etc. all provide niche services and you can generally consider them to be "healthcare workers", yet you don't hear them crying out for provider status, being included in the healthcare team, saying they should be getting "hazard pay" etc. like pharmacists are making a big fuss about.

Well, to be honest, right now the majority of those professions are basically closed for business. While hours are decreasing for a lot of the clinical pharmacists I know, it's not nearly to the extent of the healthcare workers in those fields.
 
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Obviously you've never spoken to a chiropractor.
Well, to be honest, right now the majority of those professions are basically closed for business. While hours are decreasing for a lot of the clinical pharmacists I know, it's not nearly to the extent of the healthcare workers in those fields.
The difference between those professions and pharmacy is that there is going to be a pent-up demand for those professionals once things reopen because again, they offer niche services that no other groups can provide. If your barbershop is closed, then at least you can learn to cut your own hair. But you can't do a DIY root canal, chiropractic adjustment or rehab from a major injury session by yourself.

On the contrary, there is not going to be a "pent up demand" for clinical pharmacists when this is all over with since they are just "extras." If clinical pharmacist interventions truly saved a bunch of lives and prevented a significant number of hospitalizations then it would be a no-brainer for hospitals to not cut hours so this is a big expose. Just like the economy may never rebound after this pandemic, so will clinical pharmacist hours might not ever recover after this.
 
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The economy may never rebound?! What?! Do you think that COVID has fundamentally changed human nature???
4 million Americans filed for unemployment last week. Up to 6+ million this week. Both records by a long shot.

Small businesses are crippled and many will not open up shop ever again even with the stimulus bill.

So yes, I think the damage to the economy is done.
 
4 million Americans filed for unemployment last week. Up to 6+ million this week. Both records by a long shot.

Small businesses are crippled and many will not open up shop ever again even with the stimulus bill.

So yes, I think the damage to the economy is done.

So you think this is it for the US economy and we are done now? Of all the crazy hyperbole you post this may be the best. Businesses will reopen. People will go back to work. This isn’t the zombie apocalypse.

Just to be clear we aren’t talking about the damage that is already done, you think the economy might NEVER recover?
 
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So you think this is it for the US economy and we are done now? Of all the crazy hyperbole you post this may be the best. Businesses will reopen. People will go back to work. This isn’t the zombie apocalypse.

Just to be clear we aren’t talking about the damage that is already done, you think the economy might NEVER recover?
What I'm saying is that the economy (as measured by gains in the stock market in the past decade) will be wiped out with no timetable for return. Of course people will go back to work and most stores will reopen. But I'm not talking about malls, gyms, movie theaters, chain restaurants etc. I'm talking about small businesses which make up the core of the economy. I hear of mom & pops shops and boutiques in my area closing down daily and furloughing their employees beginning more than a month ago. If this drags on for months then their "temporary closures" may become permanent and their employees won't be able to come back to work in the future even if they wanted to.

So to directly answer your question, I think that for all intents and purposes the economy won't "rebound" in terms of the stock market getting back to where it was pre-covid immediately once the president declares "all clear" like some people think. Will it get back to where it was eventually? Sure, but that will be on the scale of years and not days or months, so practically speaking the folks that are currently close to retirement might be screwed over big time.
 
Cool. Allow me to assure you a world exists where you go to the dentist and the hygienist does the cleaning. In fact I have never had a dentist do the cleaning and it blows my mind that it is apparently not that uncommon.
Yes, the dentist usually leaves the cleaning to their hygienists. The only time I have ever seen one do a cleaning is when their schedule wasn't filled with other appointments that aren't cleanings.

What I'm saying is that the economy (as measured by gains in the stock market in the past decade) will be wiped out with no timetable for return. Of course people will go back to work and most stores will reopen. But I'm not talking about malls, gyms, movie theaters, chain restaurants etc. I'm talking about small businesses which make up the core of the economy. I hear of mom & pops shops and boutiques in my area closing down daily and furloughing their employees beginning more than a month ago. If this drags on for months then their "temporary closures" may become permanent and their employees won't be able to come back to work in the future even if they wanted to.

So to directly answer your question, I think that for all intents and purposes the economy won't "rebound" in terms of the stock market getting back to where it was pre-covid immediately once the president declares "all clear" like some people think. Will it get back to where it was eventually? Sure, but that will be on the scale of years and not days or months, so practically speaking the folks that are currently close to retirement might be screwed over big time.
Not sure if I am being stupid but by that logic, looking at the rate of infections and deaths across USA; we are all going to get infected and ~30% of this population is going to be gone. Or maybe wait a little longer for more data to come in? I dunno...
 
Not sure if I am being stupid but by that logic, looking at the rate of infections and deaths across USA; we are all going to get infected and ~30% of this population is going to be gone. Or maybe wait a little longer for more data to come in? I dunno...
I think it is a basic fact of life that you are allowed to change your opinion about things as new data comes in. If not, then there is no point of modeling and those epidemiologists who are doing the COVID projections for the government should all be fired because they've been changing their numbers daily.

I mean, they initially thought "15 days to slow the spread" was enough to flatten the curve but it's now turned into a "45+ days to slow the spread and even after that we're not sure what's going to happen so we'll re-evaluate then." If you take a look at their projections, there will be about 93,000 COVID-related deaths in the U.S. by August 4, but the upper and lower bounds are 40,000-180,000 deaths. That means they are doing their estimates knowing they could be 50-100% off target. IHME | COVID-19 Projections
 
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I think it is a basic fact of life that you are allowed to change your opinion about things as new data comes in. If not, then there is no point of modeling and those epidemiologists who are doing the COVID projections for the government should all be fired because they've been changing their numbers daily.

I mean, they initially thought "15 days to slow the spread" was enough to flatten the curve but it's now turned into a "45+ days to slow the spread and even after that we're not sure what's going to happen so we'll re-evaluate then."
Yes you have the right to change opinions based on new data. But you should also maybe admit fault in logic if you keep using small sample sizes and get bad results. I don't have any problems with posting current data sets but to make conclusions on them is a different story.
 
Yes you have the right to change opinions based on new data. But you should also maybe admit fault in logic if you keep using small sample sizes and get bad results. I don't have any problems with posting current data sets but to make conclusions on them is a different story.
At the end of the day my predictions about the economy is just my opinion, and they aren't based on doing any sort of robust analysis because I'm not an economist. Nobody can predict what's going to happen in the future anyways. But this discussion is detracting from its original context - my point being that clinical pharmacist hours are being cut, hospitals are going to make do with a new workflow without the "extras," and once things go back to normal they may not need the "extras" to come back anymore because they've changed their business model. If clinical pharmacists aren't in season now then they're never going to be in season.
 
The difference between those professions and pharmacy is that there is going to be a pent-up demand for those professionals once things reopen because again, they offer niche services that no other groups can provide. If your barbershop is closed, then at least you can learn to cut your own hair. But you can't do a DIY root canal, chiropractic adjustment or rehab from a major injury session by yourself.

On the contrary, there is not going to be a "pent up demand" for clinical pharmacists when this is all over with since they are just "extras." If clinical pharmacist interventions truly saved a bunch of lives and prevented a significant number of hospitalizations then it would be a no-brainer for hospitals to not cut hours so this is a big expose. Just like the economy may never rebound after this pandemic, so will clinical pharmacist hours might not ever recover after this.
Lol, Dentistry is saturated , mainly due to corporate take over of private practice due to private equity firms and influx of graduates prior to Covid 19 . However, they are in demand in underserved areas. BLS job growth is 7 percent till 2028. And tuition for dental school is sky high expensive , look up general dentist with 1,000,000 dollars in debt in CA, who can only get part time according WSJ. In my city, there is only three dentists, where many new graduates with three years residency can’t find jobs unless they sub-specialize in cosmetics or orthodontists or oral surgeon. In my town, hygienist does the cleaning and dentist checks.
And in many places in the future AI can do root canal procedures and can replace general dentists.

Dentistry services are non essential in this pandemic. And dentists are not complaining because they are already recognized as providers and can get reimbursed for their services.

The downsides of dentistry are school tuition is extremely high at 80k per year, private equity firm take over private practice, and limited practice area in order to generate profit, meaning Dentists make money and are well off because they have a private practice. Dentists do not make that much money working for VA hospital or small primary care clinics. Secondly, dentists have to pay for overhead costs for equipments in their private practice while in 400 k plus in debt
 
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At the end of the day my predictions about the economy is just my opinion, and they aren't based on doing any sort of robust analysis because I'm not an economist. Nobody can predict what's going to happen in the future anyways. But this discussion is detracting from its original context - my point being that clinical pharmacist hours are being cut, hospitals are going to make do with a new workflow without the "extras," and once things go back to normal they may not need the "extras" to come back anymore because they've changed their business model. If clinical pharmacists aren't in season now then they're never going to be in season.
Don't you think that it would be a pretty risky move to change the way a business runs based on what happened temporarily during the pandemic? I wouldn't start hiring hundreds of new cashiers just because of the rush during the pandemic.
 
Don't you think that it would be a pretty risky move to change the way a business runs based on what happened temporarily during the pandemic? I wouldn't start hiring hundreds of new cashiers just because of the rush during the pandemic.
Actually I think businesses are doing exactly this. Not necessarily cashiers, but I've noticed a lot of restaurants hiring drivers for delivery services and the big logistics companies such as Amazon are hiring lots of workers to work in order fulfillment. All temporary, but the jobs are now there nonetheless.

In regards to pharmacists, the demand wasn't there nor exacerbated by covid, so I'm not sure what's going to happen then. I think it will still take months for hospitals to fully convert their wards from being "covid only" to elective surgery/gen med wards once the pandemic goes away so maybe after that and patients start coming back will the clinical pharmacists come back? But there will be no job growth, at best probably the re-establishment of old clinical positions.
 
Actually I think businesses are doing exactly this. Not necessarily cashiers, but I've noticed a lot of restaurants hiring drivers for delivery services and the big logistics companies such as Amazon are hiring lots of workers to work in order fulfillment. All temporary, but the jobs are now there nonetheless.
I don't know man, I'd say its risky. Not only are you dealing with the financial aspect of business but you are also dealing with people's dignity. That can really backfire but again, what the hell do I know...
 
Lol, Dentistry is saturated , mainly due to corporate take over of private practice due to private equity firms and influx of graduates prior to Covid 19 . However, they are in demand in underserved areas. BLS job growth is 7 percent till 2028. And tuition for dental school is sky high expensive , look up general dentist with 1,000,000 dollars in debt in CA, who can only get part time according WSJ. In my city, there is only three dentists, where many new graduates with three years residency can’t find jobs unless they sub-specialize in cosmetics or orthodontists or oral surgeon. In my town, hygienist does the cleaning and dentist checks.
And in many places in the future AI can do root canal procedures and can replace general dentists.

Dentistry services are non essential in this pandemic. And dentists are not complaining because they are already recognized as providers and can get reimbursed for their services.

The downsides of dentistry are school tuition is extremely high at 80k per year, private equity firm take over private practice, and limited practice area in order to generate profit, meaning Dentists make money and are well off because they have a private practice. Dentists do not make that much money working for VA hospital or small primary care clinics. Secondly, dentists have to pay for overhead costs for equipments in their private practice while in 400 k plus in debt
I'm talking about the demand for professionals, not students. The field of dentistry is plenty saturated but if every dentistry office closed down the oral hygiene service demand will not go away because you always need someone to clean/pull teeth. So if there are let's say 100,000 dentists pre-covid and all of them close down, the "demand" will still be 100,000 dentists but you'd have a supply of 0 due to all the closures. Once things go back to normal, those 100,000 dentists will go back to work and the demand problem will go away. This has nothing to do with how many students are attending dental school.
 
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I don't know man, I'd say its risky. Not only are you dealing with the financial aspect of business but you are also dealing with people's dignity. That can really backfire but again, what the hell do I know...
Yeah but businesses have to do what they can to keep their doors open today and not tomorrow. That's what I'm getting at with the economic damage of covid - many workers will be displaced because those in the travel or service industry who got laid off will probably look for these temp jobs but when covid is over they'll get terminated again and have to look for new jobs. This churn is going to be highly disruptive to peoples' lives.
 
Actually I think businesses are doing exactly this. Not necessarily cashiers, but I've noticed a lot of restaurants hiring drivers for delivery services and the big logistics companies such as Amazon are hiring lots of workers to work in order fulfillment. All temporary, but the jobs are now there nonetheless.

In regards to pharmacists, the demand wasn't there nor exacerbated by covid, so I'm not sure what's going to happen then. I think it will still take months for hospitals to fully convert their wards from being "covid only" to elective surgery/gen med wards once the pandemic goes away so maybe after that and patients start coming back will the clinical pharmacists come back? But there will be no job growth, at best probably the re-establishment of old clinical positions.

Is it also another realistic possibility that many hospitals decide that they no longer need all the clinical pharmacists that they temporarily diverted to performing staffing duties, and then basic staffing positions become even more competitive to obtain (since residency-trained pharmacists will now have to compete primarily for those positions)?
 
I'm talking about the demand for professionals, not students. The field of dentistry is plenty saturated but if every dentistry office closed down the oral hygiene service demand will not go away because you always need someone to clean/pull teeth. So if there are let's say 100,000 dentists pre-covid and all of them close down, the "demand" will still be 100,000 dentists but you'd have a supply of 0 due to all the closures. Once things go back to normal, those 100,000 dentists will go back to work and the demand problem will go away. This has nothing to do with how many students are attending dental school.
I agree with you on that point. Things go back to normal for dentistry professionals.
 
In times of crisis such as this COVID-19 pandemic, one only needs to look at who the government, public health agencies and hospitals are interacting with and calling upon to respond to understand the limited role a pharmacist plays in the healthcare ecosystem. I do not make this post to beat a dead horse, but many of the things that have been echoed on this forum are now becoming extremely apparent (if it isn't already apparent).

Some observations I've made through the last few days:

1) Pharmacy is saturated with an oversupply of workers, yet in a time of public health crisis there is no increase in demand for pharmacists to aid in relief efforts because the PharmD curriculum is irrelevant, "pharmacist skill sets" are not transferrable and pharmacists are not recognized as even midlevel providers.

In California, cities are hosting job fairs and hiring qualified/licensed nurses ON THE SPOT because there is a surge in demand for "frontline healthcare staff." Meanwhile, job fairs for pharmacists have been nonexistant and they can't even volunteer with relief efforts because they don't even have the basic medical training to even screen/triage patients. Moreover, I only hear of more and more pharmacists (who work in hospitals) being SENT HOME as opposed to working more hours due to demand. Can you imagine doctors or nurses "working from home" in a time like this?

2) Even if there were an expanded role for pharmacists during this public health crisis, we do not have a voice to represent the issues specific to pharmacy and therefore any progress/relief pharmacists get will be a result of the trickle-down that comes through policy work from non-pharmacy (medical and nursing) national organizations.

If you've been watching the news then you'd know that the President has been meeting with not just legislators, private sector/commercial companies but also healthcare groups to talk through issues that impact them. Today, he met with the heads of the NP groups to listen to their concerns about PPEs and ventilators and I can't help but think that if pharmacists were actually relevant then they should be getting a meeting with the President. The only time pharmacy has been mentioned so far is in the context of developing new therapeutics (which isn't pharmacy) and converting select retail sites to serve as collection sites for corona testing. Tremendous failure by APhA, AACP, ASHP etc to represent our profession and lobby for an increased scope of practice (this is a great time for that) in a time like this.

3. Pharmacy is possibly the healthcare profession (maybe I should call it a pseudo-healthcare profession) with the biggest passive-aggressive whiners in it and most pharmacists lack perspective.

I don't know how many posts I've seen in the last week about the lack of PPEs and how we should be "paid more" because we deal with patients who potentially have corona every day. I've laid out an argument elsewhere that a bag boy at a supermarket is probably exposed to more corona patients than a retail pharmacist so I won't go through that again, but it is statements like these that reveals peoples' true colors and if we all truly went into healthcare/pharmacy to "help people" and not for the paycheck, people would not say things like this. In any industry, the "highest risk" workers are not the ones getting paid the most, and we have it good compared to real providers, so for those that keep complaining about lack of PPE/hazard pay etc., just know that if nurses/physicians aren't even getting adequate protection or pay, then there is no way that pharmacy will get it so stop whining about it.

What do you all think?




Thats what i thought......but seriously... some valid points.
 
You're right that the companies willing to pay PAs and NPs $100k+ to work for 2 months in high infection rate areas are offering hazard pay, but even before the coronavirus outbreak had even hit China, the hospital I used to work as a pharmacy intern at was offering $75/hr plus benefits and an extra $250 to work on a Saturday or Sunday. That's still significantly more than the $42/hr the pharmacists at the same hospital start out at (unless the pharmacists I used to work with who divulged that salary figure are lying to me).

You really believe that a hospital was paying a pharmacy intern almost twice as much as they were paying a full-fledged pharmacist? Seriously? Yes, somebody was lying to you.

Because pharmacists are the only healthcare workers that try to be fake doctors so they should be graded to that standard while physical therapists shouldn't.

What makes a pharmacist a "fake doctor", and doesn't make a physical therapist a "fake doctor"? Is someone with a Ph.D in Art a "fake doctor?" You can be a doctor in almost any subject, and it makes you a real doctor in that subject. Now, if you are talking about the few pharmacists who like to pretend they are a medical doctor when they aren't, that is on them, it still doesn't mean that they aren't a real doctor of pharmacy. If you think the Pharm D standards are too low compared to other doctorates, then complain to the APCE, they are the ones who set the standards. It still doesn't change the fact that currant Pharm D graduates are real doctors of prarmacy.

The premise of the original post is that pharmacists are NOT essential to the healthcare team and the coronavirus ordeal is exposing the profession for what it is. Physical therapists, occupational therapists, dentists, optometrists, psychologists etc. all provide niche services and you can generally consider them to be "healthcare workers", yet you don't hear them crying out for provider status, being included in the healthcare team, saying they should be getting "hazard pay" etc. like pharmacists are making a big fuss about. This is because:

The only place I've heard pharmacist crying about hazard pay is a few few on this board. That is hardly indicative of pharmacists as a whole. I have not heard of any pharmacist in real life say anything about hazard pay.

1) The general public recognizes what they do

The "general public" seldom recognizes half the jobs that their 1st world standard of living requires. Does the general public have any idea what a Water Systems Operator actually does? Or a cartographer? What the "general public" recognizes is irrelevant.

2) They can practice independently and bill independently (i.e. you don't need a referral from a physician to go see your dentist)

This is true (by law) in the US. In many other countries of the world, it is *not* true of pharmacists.

3) Because their services are niche/unique, they have turf no other healthcare worker can ever step on

Every job has overlap with other jobs. Unless you are an artist or something, there is on job that doesn't have components to it, that could be done by someone else with a different job.

4) The value of their services can never be diminished by "midlevel" workers in their specialty such as assistants or technicians. Yes, dentists and optometrists have assistants/techs who help out with screening, cleaning supplies etc. but there will never exist a world where you go to your dentist's office and a tech will perform the actual cleaning of your teeth and consultation/recommendation on what to do, let alone do a root canal, retainers or surgery.

Actually, optometrists ARE the mid-level to ophthalmologists. And there ARE mid-level "dentists", they are called Dental Therapists (not everywhere yet, but surely coming to a state near you soon.)

In other words, in these professions the delineation between what the professional does versus what the "midlevel" does is extremely black and white.

In other words, your "black and white" depiction of what makes a professional exists only in your own mind.

What I'm saying is that the economy (as measured by gains in the stock market in the past decade)

The stock market is a very imprecise measurement of the real economy. Yes, it will take a long time for the stock market gains to come back, but that is because those "gains" were on paper and didn't represent real increased value of a business.

Yes, the dentist usually leaves the cleaning to their hygienists. The only time I have ever seen one do a cleaning is when their schedule wasn't filled with other appointments that aren't cleanings.

Same here, the only time I had a dentist clean my teeth was in the 70's, and my parents had taken me to a new dentist just starting out. As soon as he could afford to hire a hygenist, he did.
 
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You really believe that a hospital was paying a pharmacy intern almost twice as much as they were paying a full-fledged pharmacist? Seriously? Yes, somebody was lying to you.

Sorry, I should've been clearer in my post. I had previously referenced the fact that PAs and NPs are hired to work in the ER at the same hospital I used to work as an intern at at a starting salary of $75/hr plus the $250 shift dif to work on a Saturday or Sunday, so that's what I was referring to. On the other hand, I was told by the pharmacists I used to work with that new staff pharmacists only start out at $42 (that's the figure I was referring to when I said "unless someone was lying to me"), so my post was intended to convey the fact that even before the coronavirus pandemic, the hospital was still starting off PAs and NPs (in the ER at least) at almost twice as much as what pharmacists there start off at.
 
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What makes a pharmacist a "fake doctor", and doesn't make a physical therapist a "fake doctor"? Is someone with a Ph.D in Art a "fake doctor?" You can be a doctor in almost any subject, and it makes you a real doctor in that subject. Now, if you are talking about the few pharmacists who like to pretend they are a medical doctor when they aren't, that is on them, it still doesn't mean that they aren't a real doctor of pharmacy. If you think the Pharm D standards are too low compared to other doctorates, then complain to the APCE, they are the ones who set the standards. It still doesn't change the fact that currant Pharm D graduates are real doctors of prarmacy.
You know what I'm talking about - I am obviously not comparing a physician to a PhD in art. I'm talking about (within the health care field) what you think you know/can do based on your "level of training". Unlike other doctorate-level healthcare professions, pharmacists are the only ones that are 100% dependent on other healthcare professionals, yet they keep TRYING to assert themselves as "gatekeepers" and are attempting to get into the primary care space (ambulatory care) as they have no identity besides dispensing otherwise. For example, getting shots was something historically done at the doctor's office and not the pharmacy. Pharmacists constantly try to get "provider status" and many think the silver bullet is if we are "able to prescribe" or "able to diagnose." But the fact of the matter is that they won't be able to so they will always have dependencies on physicians. It's a vicious cycle for pharmacists.

The only place I've heard pharmacist crying about hazard pay is a few few on this board. That is hardly indicative of pharmacists as a whole. I have not heard of any pharmacist in real life say anything about hazard pay.
Go to the pharmacy sub on Reddit and you will see threads complaining about this every day...

The "general public" seldom recognizes half the jobs that their 1st world standard of living requires. Does the general public have any idea what a Water Systems Operator actually does? Or a cartographer? What the "general public" recognizes is irrelevant.
The general public's perception is extremely relevant because politicians who have the ability to influence policy and legislation are part of that "general public" and are lay people when it comes to every subject except politics and maybe law. The difference between those jobs you mentioned versus a pharmacist job is that those are niche jobs for niche things, while pharmacy is also a niche job but they have been trying to expand out of being a niche job for the last several decades which is why they came up with the PharmD degree, residencies, "provider status" etc. Listen, it doesn't matter if the general public knows what your job entails if your profession is not "trying to go somewhere" or "become something else," but this is exactly what pharmacists are trying to do and why they are failing at the policy level - because legislators' perceptions of pharmacists is that they dispense meds at the pharmacy. Matter of fact I read somewhere that pharmacists rolled up under the department of education and not the department of health in NYC. If the "general public" knew what a "clinical pharmacist" does, then we might have gotten provider status by now (not that I think clinical pharmacists are worth much, but it at least paints the profession in a different light).

This is true (by law) in the US. In many other countries of the world, it is *not* true of pharmacists.
This forum is a U.S. forum and we are obviously talking about U.S. PharmD's here, not Canadian PharmD's or African PharmD's. Not a relevant argument.

Every job has overlap with other jobs. Unless you are an artist or something, there is on job that doesn't have components to it, that could be done by someone else with a different job.
Of course every job has overlap with another job, but I'm talking about the DEGREE of overlap. Almost every health care job requires some level of clerical duties but for pharmacists 95% of that time is spent doing clerical things (intaking and processing orders), while, say, an attending physician spends most of their time teaching and consulting (because the residents and students conduct the interviews, work up the patients and do a lot of that grunt work). So that is exactly why pharmacy is doomed as a profession, because most of the components of pharmacy can be "done by someone else with a different job" i.e. techs and clerks.


Actually, optometrists ARE the mid-level to ophthalmologists.
Optometrists are not mid-level ophthalmologists because ophthalmologists are not "outsourcing" their duties to optometrists, ophthalmologists do not "supervise" optometrists and the two do not practice in the same office/environment. Doing vision checks and prescribing contacts/glasses was never in the repertoire of ophthalmologists, who deal with treating actual medical conditions of the eye with meds or surgery. This in contrast to the MD-PA relationships or Pharmacist-pharm tech relationships.

In other words, your "black and white" depiction of what makes a professional exists only in your own mind.
Your argument doesn't make sense. When I walk into a doctor's office it is obvious who is the doctor that is going to talk to you and make the recommendation and who is the assistant that is going to measure your weight or fill out a form. This isn't a "depiction in my own mind," it's reality. In contrast, if I walk into a pharmacy I can't tell who the pharmacist is, unless all the staff had color-coded uniforms. Plus the pharmacist may or may not be the one who greets you when you walk up to the counter - I guarantee you that your doctor will not be the one greeting you at the receptionist's desk when you go to an appointment.

The stock market is a very imprecise measurement of the real economy. Yes, it will take a long time for the stock market gains to come back, but that is because those "gains" were on paper and didn't represent real increased value of a business.
How else would you measure how the economy is doing then? Looking at the stock market is the easiest, quickest way of making that judgement.
 
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You can tell how well an economy does based on how much growth in fossil fuel consumption there is
 
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