The limited value of the pharmacy profession is now being put on full display

[Traziiramate09]

In any industry, the "highest risk" workers are not the ones getting paid the most, and we have it good compared to real providers, so for those that keep complaining about lack of PPE/hazard pay etc., just know that if nurses/physicians aren't even getting adequate protection or pay, then there is no way that pharmacy will get it so stop whining about it.

Someone notices theres a problem with disparate treatment of pharmacy workers and they need to stop whining. What a great solution. Not! The difference between a pharmacy worker and a grocery worker is depending on their chain, they may have to give vaccinations and I don't think you can argue bagging a turkey is more important than a life sustaining medication or even a psych med. I've seen you on Reddit. While I am disillusioned as a pharmacy student, not unlike you, I want to try my best to serve my managers and patients and get through this. And I need PPE for that. Forget about hazard pay.

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[deleted562805]

One of the richest cities in FL..... beautiful....yeah hard to land a job in that corner of the state..... i tried.....

Interesting, Naples is in need for pilots. I saw an ad about their flight school.

 

[owlegrad]

Someone notices theres a problem with disparate treatment of pharmacy workers and they need to stop whining. What a great solution. Not! The difference between a pharmacy worker and a grocery worker is depending on their chain, they may have to give vaccinations and I don't think you can argue bagging a turkey is more important than a life sustaining medication or even a psych med. I've seen you on Reddit. While I am disillusioned as a pharmacy student, not unlike you, I want to try my best to serve my managers and patients and get through this. And I need PPE for that. Forget about hazard pay.

Actually I would argue that food is more vital than medication for perhaps 99% of the population. A small number of people may have medical conditions that are so life threatening that they will die without their meds before they die without food but I am having a hard time thinking of a condition that is managed in an outpatient setting that would apply to.

 

[Traziiramate09]

Actually I would argue that food is more vital than medication for perhaps 99% of the population. A small number of people may have medical conditions that are so life threatening that they will die without their meds before they die without food but I am having a hard time thinking of a condition that is managed in an outpatient setting that would apply to.

what if they had really severe asthma, which is pretty common. Or even something like bipolar disorder or depression (and YES, I know thats not technically life threatening), where its important to stay adherent. In industralized countries, we're kind of overfed anyway, to say the least. The body does not need as many calories as the average American consumes. Furthermore, I should've said in my original comment, that if you're anywhere like where I work, you're still at risk for exposure when you handle things customers have touched such as cash or when you go deliver a patient's meds and they still open the window even when told specifically not to. Heck, even standing in the same location as patients is risky. We're even required to wear masks at my place of work/ PPE is still important for pharmacy employees.

 

[owlegrad]

what if they had really severe asthma, which is pretty common. Or even something like bipolar disorder or depression (and YES, I know thats not technically life threatening), where its important to stay adherent. In industralized countries, we're kind of overfed anyway, to say the least. The body does not need as many calories as the average American consumes.

Severe asthma is life threatening sure but they would need to have an asthma attack (and not have access to EMS) before they starved to death. If I had to pick between food and an inhaler, I would pick food...unless I was having an asthma attack.

 

[Traziiramate09]

Severe asthma is life threatening sure but they would need to have an asthma attack (and not have access to EMS) before they starved to death. If I had to pick between food and an inhaler, I would pick food...unless I was having an asthma attack.

if you lived in an area with a low QOL or food desert, sure. But they wouldn't need to have an asthma attack. The whole reason they have inhalers in the first place is because they're at risk for having one, and unless they can tell the future, i doubt they can take any chances. Besides EMS is more expensive than a days supply of an inhaler. And the doctors would just give you b2 agonist or something and send you on you way anyway. And the patient can do that on their own.

 

[owlegrad]

if you lived in an area with a low QOL or food desert, sure. But they wouldn't need to have an asthma attack. The whole reason they have inhalers in the first place is because they're at risk for having one, and unless they can tell the future, i doubt they can take any chances. Besides EMS is more expensive than a days supply of an inhaler. And the doctors would just give you b2 agonist or something and send you on you way anyway. And the patient can do that on their own.

Without an inhaler there is a chance you will die. Without food you are guaranteed to die.

 

[Traziiramate09]

Without an inhaler there is a chance you will die. Without food you are guaranteed to die.

that's true but if you live in America, you are generally overfed. People know how to eat. a lot more people don't know how to take their medication appropriately.

 

[owlegrad]

that's true but if you live in America, you are generally overfed. People know how to eat. a lot more people don't know how to take their medication appropriately.

I don’t see what either of those points have to do with which one is more vital. No matter how overfed you are you still have to eat. Doesn’t matter if you know how to take medications or not, you still need to eat.

 

[Traziiramate09]

I don’t see what either of those points have to do with which one is more vital. No matter how overfed you are you still have to eat. Doesn’t matter if you know how to take medications or not, you still need to eat.

If you're overfed, no you dont have to eat. That's my point. If you don't live in a food desert and are properly fed, you won't die if you dont' eat for 2 hours. And you certainly don't need a turkey to survive. That's why I used that example. People are rarely starved, but they do have big appetites. people will rarely be in danger as to not eating enough food unless, like i said, you're in a food desert. However, if you dont get those life sustaining meds, you won't be able to eat anything. besides all i SAID was that meds were more important. Not that food wasn't important. Just not as important. You're making up a situation in which someone will have to choose between one of the two and for what reason?

 

[owlegrad]

If you're overfed, no you dont have to eat. That's my point. If you don't live in a food desert and are properly fed, you won't die if you dont' eat for 2 hours. And you certainly don't need a turkey to survive. That's why I used that example. People are rarely starved, but they do have big appetites. people will rarely be in danger as to not eating enough food unless, like i said, you're in a food desert. However, if you dont get those life sustaining meds, you won't be able to eat anything. besides all i SAID was that meds were more important. Not that food wasn't important. Just not as important. You're making up a situation in which someone will have to choose between one of the two and for what reason?

I don’t understand your point at all. You are arguing that meds are more important than food, specifically turkey for some reason. You are wrong. The vast majority of people need food more than they need meds. I don’t even see how you can argue the opposite. I am making an argument that if you had to pick one you would pick food to prove that is the more vital resource...how else do you propose to prove which one is more vital?

 

[TheBlaah]

Gonna have to agree that food is more important than meds. Everyone needs food; only a portion of the population needs medication.

 

[sozetone]

It's been mentioned before but a lot of marginal applicants are applying because why not? Student loan payments deferred, non-rigorous admissions, maybe the job market for new grads will get better (based on what?). Kind of a hail mary for the marginal types

You mean 4 years to D**K off and run around with a paddle as part of some worthless fraternity/sorority ....while they watch TV on their laptops in class (if they show up). Only to get out and realize their fraternity pals are gone and they have no job or prospects. Every year that passes it gets exponentially worse for these kids who are inexperienced.

 

[Chrish]

Gonna have to agree that food is more important than meds. Everyone needs food; only a portion of the population needs medication.

How dare you undermining my Xandy bar!

 

[Sine Cura]

I contest that people know how to eat if they are fat Jabbas that scoot around in their wheelchairs.

Can't wait for chronic medication shortages and hypos start crying they gonna die without their Greenstone sildenafil or alprazolam

 

[pharmd0101]

While I have to agree with you on some points, I cannot agree with all of your points. Pharmacists are not as prominent as frontline workers, by which you mean "working directly and seeing patients in emergent situations, measuring vitals, etc". But it's because our roles are just different as healthcare professionals. What you mentioned are roles of nurses and doctors, not pharmacists. Pharmacists dispense medications, check allergies, interactions, make sure we are preparing and delivering correct meds, dose, etc to the patients, and counseling. Do you think nurses and doctors would be able to do what they do, if there were not pharmacists who prepare and check meds and do what we do for patients? It's not that we are not useful in situations like this as frontline workers, we just have different roles, and we are in fact making sure patients are getting the best care and saving lives as much as nurses and doctors. I have heard numerous thank-you's from patients, thanking us for what we do in times like this.

And yes, there are actually a lot of nurses and doctors who work remotely. In fact, a lot of outpatient doctor offices (even ER departments did not allow patients in without checking patients's symptoms first over the phone) have been closed and working remotely, using telecommunications over the phone, etc for patient appointments. While you can criticize some negative things about this profession, you cannot make it sound like what pharmacists do are useless and not as important as what other professionals do. For one thing, pharmacists are easily accessible, so patients come to us first for problems and questions. While we cannot prescribe, pharmacists working in some settings have protocols set up so that they can manage dosage just like doctors, although limited. It is in place in certain settings and there are a lot more to what we do than you or some people make it out to be. It would be great if we are granted some prescribing authority and our roles expanded (especially in some settings), because we would be able to help patients better.

I agree with you that we have to put patient care/safety first. We have to stay on top of things, and come up with ways we could help patients better. However, it's just not fair how you call many pharmacists whiners. I actually believe we are very much underappreciated for what we do (I am not talking about the pay at all here). In trying times like this, I can't believe you are blaming pharmacists for things that are out of our control and for things in fact rather irrelevant to our roles in the healthcare field, as a pharmacist yourself. We are certified immunizers and also have BLS training, so we could help out in situations needing these skills. Even during emergency situations like this, there are still many patients who need their daily meds and need someone that they could easily reach to address their questions before they reach out to the doctors.

And I honestly think you are not a pharmacist. I don't know what your real profession is, and you may have some basic knowledge about the profession of pharmacy, probably from observation, but you don't sound like someone who has any passion for the profession itself and you are just bitter/jealous. Advising students who are considering pharmacy school to rethink it because it's very saturated is one thing, trash talking the profession completely without any meaningful insight is another.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

Why is Pharmacy is a Scam banned?

 

[owlegrad]

What a mystery. The world may never know.

 

[zNoodlez]

Why is Pharmacy is a Scam banned?

Probably due to some inappropriate PM's, that's how most people got banned I bet.

 

[deleted562805]

While I have to agree with you on some points, I cannot agree with all of your points. Pharmacists are not as prominent as frontline workers, by which you mean "working directly and seeing patients in emergent situations, measuring vitals, etc". But it's because our roles are just different as healthcare professionals. What you mentioned are roles of nurses and doctors, not pharmacists. Pharmacists dispense medications, check allergies, interactions, make sure we are preparing and delivering correct meds, dose, etc to the patients, and counseling. Do you think nurses and doctors would be able to do what they do, if there were not pharmacists who prepare and check meds and do what we do for patients? It's not that we are not useful in situations like this as frontline workers, we just have different roles, and we are in fact making sure patients are getting the best care and saving lives as much as nurses and doctors. I have heard numerous thank-you's from patients, thanking us for what we do in times like this.

And yes, there are actually a lot of nurses and doctors who work remotely. In fact, a lot of outpatient doctor offices (even ER departments did not allow patients in without checking patients's symptoms first over the phone) have been closed and working remotely, using telecommunications over the phone, etc for patient appointments. While you can criticize some negative things about this profession, you cannot make it sound like what pharmacists do are useless and not as important as what other professionals do. For one thing, pharmacists are easily accessible, so patients come to us first for problems and questions. While we cannot prescribe, pharmacists working in some settings have protocols set up so that they can manage dosage just like doctors, although limited. It is in place in certain settings and there are a lot more to what we do than you or some people make it out to be. It would be great if we are granted some prescribing authority and our roles expanded (especially in some settings), because we would be able to help patients better.

I agree with you that we have to put patient care/safety first. We have to stay on top of things, and come up with ways we could help patients better. However, it's just not fair how you call many pharmacists whiners. I actually believe we are very much underappreciated for what we do (I am not talking about the pay at all here). In trying times like this, I can't believe you are blaming pharmacists for things that are out of our control and for things in fact rather irrelevant to our roles in the healthcare field, as a pharmacist yourself. We are certified immunizers and also have BLS training, so we could help out in situations needing these skills. Even during emergency situations like this, there are still many patients who need their daily meds and need someone that they could easily reach to address their questions before they reach out to the doctors.

And I honestly think you are not a pharmacist. I don't know what your real profession is, and you may have some basic knowledge about the profession of pharmacy, probably from observation, but you don't sound like someone who has any passion for the profession itself and you are just bitter/jealous. Advising students who are considering pharmacy school to rethink it because it's very saturated is one thing, trash talking the profession completely without any meaningful insight is another.

NPs and PAs and physicians can also check med recs and also counsel on medications.
The function of dispensing and verifying and preparing meds is the role of a pharmacists. Those are only services mainly done by pharmacists. The other services are outsourced to pharmacists because front line health care workers have a high patient workload.
Immunizations, BLS were originally nursing roles and are now outsourced to pharmacists. Monitoring meds can be done by physicians, PAs and NPs.

 

[SELDANE]

Why is Pharmacy is a Scam banned?

That's kinda my question as well. I can see censure for rude or offensive posts but for being brutally honest?

 

[mentos]

That's kinda my question as well. I can see censure for rude or offensive posts but for being brutally honest?

This forum is heavily filtered. Posts are deleted, edited, moved to this hidden forum and people who are honest get banned. If someone responds to a topic older than a year old then it will be closed for further discussion even if the topic is still relevant. If the mods deem the post off topic, they will close it but leave hundreds of others open. If the mods don't like a post, they'll close it or delete it. A small number of people control what are allowed to see just like in North Korea.

No other forum on the internet operates this way.

 

[Chrish]

There is a difference between being brutally honest vs purposely going out of the way to post same crap over and over agin that doesn’t add much value to the topic being discussed.

Pharmacy is a dying career.. We all know that. But then what’s the point of even being here if all we want to discuss is why pharmacy is doomed?

 

[SELDANE]

There is a difference between being brutally honest vs purposely going out of the way to post same crap over and over agin that doesn’t add much value to the topic being discussed.

Pharmacy is a dying career.. We all know that. But then what’s the point of even being here if all we want to discuss is why pharmacy is doomed?

Then according to your criteria you should be banned.

 

[Chrish]

Then according to your criteria you should be banned.

I don’t go to every thread discussing death of pharmacy.

 

[Pachi808]

Interesting thread... my experiences have been completely different

 

[deleted562805]

Because pharmacists are the only healthcare workers that try to be fake doctors so they should be graded to that standard while physical therapists shouldn't. The premise of the original post is that pharmacists are NOT essential to the healthcare team and the coronavirus ordeal is exposing the profession for what it is. Physical therapists, occupational therapists, dentists, optometrists, psychologists etc. all provide niche services and you can generally consider them to be "healthcare workers", yet you don't hear them crying out for provider status, being included in the healthcare team, saying they should be getting "hazard pay" etc. like pharmacists are making a big fuss about. This is because:

1) The general public recognizes what they do
2) They can practice independently and bill independently (i.e. you don't need a referral from a physician to go see your dentist)
3) Because their services are niche/unique, they have turf no other healthcare worker can ever step on
4) The value of their services can never be diminished by "midlevel" workers in their specialty such as assistants or technicians. Yes, dentists and optometrists have assistants/techs who help out with screening, cleaning supplies etc. but there will never exist a world where you go to your dentist's office and a tech will perform the actual cleaning of your teeth and consultation/recommendation on what to do, let alone do a root canal, retainers or surgery. In other words, in these professions the delineation between what the professional does versus what the "midlevel" does is extremely black and white.

All this in contrast to pharmacists, who also "provide niche services", but:

1) The general public does NOT know what pharmacists do
2) They can NOT (and will never) practice without dependencies on physicians
3) The only "unique" service they provide is the dispensing of drugs; everything else is an intrusion on someone else' turf: MTM, ambulatory care, rounding with the healthcare team, P&T committees, giving flu shots etc. Matter of fact, like many have said, during this pandemic most "clinical pharmacist" hours have been cut/reassigned and not increased, which speaks to the fact that pharmacist services are nonessential. So strip these services away and pharmacists are left with dispensing functions. Which is going back to square one in the 1900s where pharmacists only counted pills in the basement. Gee, guess this profession hasn't evolved, after all.
4) The value of their services are continually being diminished by technicians, and the line between pharmacists and their "midlevel" counterparts is extremely gray. In other words, a pharmacist performs 95% similar responsibilities as a pharm tech (especially in retail), while a physical therapy assistant or dental assistant performs <50% similar responsibilities as a physical therapist or dentist.

So comparing pharmacists to physical therapists is comparing apples to oranges.

5. Pharmacists are the only health care profession that provide free medical advice and act very proud of it. IT actually devalues the profession. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

[deleted562805]

Surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, but i know many physicians that are even starting to get their hours cut and salaries reduced. Hospitals are getting killed with the profitable elective procedures getting put on hold and the unprofitable emergency services / COVID exploding in volume.

Things are already going to back to normal for surgeons, OBGYNS, Anesthesiologists, CRNAS, and Dentists and other elective fields. Elective surgeries generate revenue for a hospital

 

[deleted562805]

Great observations. APha has their headquarters right outside of the Lincoln Memorial at Washington DC. What is that building there for?

More importantly. Where is ASHP? They are always the ones pushing residency and clinical pharmacy and touting that pharmaceutical care is more than just dispensing medications

 

[deleted562805]

AACP was too busy with their "meeting" in Puerto Rico a month ago. Lucinda has to tan and Tom at APHA is busy running one of his primary business. Anyone who thinks these orgs represent the profession is delusional. I get better responses from my state and federal representatives who then put pressure on the BoPs to enact legislation.

What was ASHP doing? The higher than thou clinical pharmacists. What was Paul doing?

 

[VA77]

Who Paul? Oh, he was planning competencies for PGY3 and PGY4 residencies.