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The most high speed military officer ever

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alferec

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This army doc is tabbed out like crazy!!! How is this possible???

http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/07/29/11298-top-medical-officer-in-iraq-garners-first-star/

"...Caravalho is a graduate of Gonzaga University, holds a doctoral degree from the Uniformed Service University of Health Sciences and is a graduate of the Army War College...

Caravalho's decorations include the Legion of Merit, Meritorious Service Medal (with 6 Oak Leaf Clusters), Joint Service Commendation Medal, Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal (with 3 Oak Leaf Clusters), Flight Surgeon Badge, Expert Field Medical Badge, Parachutist Badge, Scuba Diver Badge, Ranger Tab and Special Forces Tab."

:wow:
 

IgD

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I'm a physician first and foremost. I don't know anything about the General in the story but across my career I found physicians who had given up their identity as a doctor. They traveled around from place to place. In one respect it made them great officers but terrible physicians.
 

Habeed

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The first badges are mostly obtained with seniority and this doctor's high rank. The flight surgeon badge is another 'default' badge obtained for doing that type of posting.

EFMB is one tough cookie : it's a tough 2 week course that has some onerous physical requirements, such as a 12 mile ruck march in 3 hours in the San Antonio heat.

The parachutist badge is a prestige badge that would be pretty easy to get if the doc had been assigned to an airborne unit.

The ranger AND special forces tabs may or may not be a big deal. Technically, to be tabbed one is supposed to complete ranger school and special forces selection. However, I have seen officers wear both tabs simply because they were assigned to a unit that was a ranger or special forces unit.

Special Forces selection is brutal, physically, and it would be a waste to make a doctor finish it.

Ultimately, it's an impressive collection of decorations. This doc must be in pretty good physical shape.

However, this man is by no means the most highly decorated : notice there are no medals for bravery. I would rank badges for bravery above any of these "certificates of completion" badges that this man has.
 

mann976

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I'm a physician first and foremost.

well...so glad you cleared that up. glad to see you have your priorities straight. don't be so quick to judge . . just b/c a doc decides to go the admin/flag route doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad physician. he could be a damn good one and chose to go that route to help invoke change.
 

CodeBlueMD

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I have seen officers wear both tabs simply because they were assigned to a unit that was a ranger or special forces unit.

Really? Never seen that.

You actually have to complete the 6 week course at Rucker and be an MD or DO to wear the Flight Surgeon badge, legally. Not that it's a very difficult course...
 

IgD

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In the Navy you have two collar devices: one for medical corps and the other is your rank. Someone told me once that you have to keep a balance between the two devices. I met some interesting characters who gave up their identity as a physician. One high ranking individual introduced himself as a "former physician". What do you think of that?
 

Habeed

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Well, ranger school and special forces selection are both ways to create elite infantry troops. It's all about operations in hostile territory on foot, possibly behind enemy lines. In principle, special forces and rangers are the infantry soldiers you use for the most dangerous missions, again and again, because they are the strongest and shoot the straightest.

What the heck can a physician contribute? It's a waste of resources to have that physician trying to shoot the bad guys, or have him humping a rucksack with the rest of the troops. Physicians are only worth their training costs if you use them in a well lit and well supplied clinic treating one patient after another, for 12 hours at a stretch. Not to mention, physicians aren't typically the motor-cycle riding 19 year old risk-takers that make good elite infantry.

So it's possible the Army put this doc in a special forces unit...at the battalion level, it makes sense to have a few doctors. But having him complete the training? Maybe he did complete it, but that was certainly not a wise use of the Army's money...
 

CodeBlueMD

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Well, ranger school and special forces selection are both ways to create elite infantry troops. It's all about operations in hostile territory on foot, possibly behind enemy lines. In principle, special forces and rangers are the infantry soldiers you use for the most dangerous missions, again and again, because they are the strongest and shoot the straightest.

What the heck can a physician contribute? It's a waste of resources to have that physician trying to shoot the bad guys, or have him humping a rucksack with the rest of the troops. Physicians are only worth their training costs if you use them in a well lit and well supplied clinic treating one patient after another, for 12 hours at a stretch. Not to mention, physicians aren't typically the motor-cycle riding 19 year old risk-takers that make good elite infantry.

So it's possible the Army put this doc in a special forces unit...at the battalion level, it makes sense to have a few doctors. But having him complete the training? Maybe he did complete it, but that was certainly not a wise use of the Army's money...


I know alot of docs who have SF and/or Ranger tabs. None of them got them after medical school.
 

mann976

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What do you think of that?

Awwee, that's too bad! Well then shame on him. he's probably a bad doc and a bad officer.

coming from the enlisted side . . . I've worked with many great docs, that were both good physicians and officers. its not hard to be good at both! the good qualities of both coincide with each other (you want your OIC and doc to be mentally/physically fit, organized, punctual, hard-working, attentive, etc etc).

like i said, i've worked with many great ones. unfortunately, every once in a while i run into one that's a crappy doc and blames everything on the "requirements" of his officership. Please! to those, i say they're bad docs b/c they're bad docs . . . and bad officers at that. it's not like the navy's turning you into the CNO
 

notdeadyet

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I met some interesting characters who gave up their identity as a physician. One high ranking individual introduced himself as a "former physician". What do you think of that?
You're an MD for life, but you're a physician for as long as you're working as one. It's your job, not your citizenship.

If an MD, either military or civilian, makes a career path where they are not longer a practicing physician but instead an administrator with an MD in his name, I'd find it refreshing to hear him refer to himself as a "former physician".

If he's still practicing medicine? I'd be a little afraid.
 

mann976

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You're an MD for life, but you're a physician for as long as you're working as one. It's your job, not your citizenship.

If an MD, either military or civilian, makes a career path where they are not longer a practicing physician but instead an administrator with an MD in his name, I'd find it refreshing to hear him refer to himself as a "former physician".

If he's still practicing medicine? I'd be a little afraid.

well said. and if you choose to go a different path and do it well, you're worthy of praise and respect
 

edmadison

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I know several Docs that were former SF/Ranger. Most of them would also have a jump wings. As noted, in the Army being a FS is not a huge deal. EFMB is very laudable, scuba is interesting. I know quite a former service docs that have air assault badges and EIB. Jeez, there was one PA I went through the FS course that was SF/Ranger, CIB, jump wings, air assault bade and pathfinder badge!

What's very telling about the soldier listed above, is that he has no combat awards. He's not taken care of troops under fire, or he would have a CMB. He doesn't have a CAB either. Nor does he have a bronze star, which most higher ranking officers in a combat would have (not the valorous BSM, the one for exceptional meritorious service).

Ed
 

a1qwerty55

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the usual on SDN - speculation reigns supreme. Read below.
 
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a1qwerty55

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The usual bogus information on the Student doctor forums by know nothings. Habeed, are you for real?

He was prior service, earned the awards, is respected by those who I have spoken to who have worked with him.

The comment about not "taken care of soldiers under fire" is totally bogus, as he has been an O-6 since the start of OIF/OEF, so wouldn't have the opportunity to do so. We don't deploy Colonels as GMO's. Unless you are with a line unit or are unlucky enough to get attacked you shouldn't have a CAB or CMB. Early in the war some pretty bogus CABs were given out but they have since tightened up the criteria.
 

Homunculus

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let's see . . prior service + ROTC + USUHS + fellowship . . .

that equals "in for life". he even admitted as much in the article that being a physican was secondary to him behind being an officer.

i've met these guys. most have SO much time invested in the military they have no choice but to embrace it and turn to the dark side, lol.

for example-- west pointer + usuhs, currently in a brigade surgeon slot. do you think he would be anthing OTHER than a yes man for the command? do you think he sticks up for his medical colleagues? when it comes down to pleasing his bosses and getting a phat OER and someone to grab the coat-tails of, or sticking up for standard of care (that his physicians are trying their damndest to uphold) which direction do you think he goes?

i'm not saying this is true of all lifers or Dr. Caravalho, but it's a definite entity that exists.

--your friendly neighborhood star avoiding caveman
 

gastrodoc

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I agree with A1. I've worked with him, he's a good doc and a good commander from what I've heard. I'm pretty sure he was tabbed prior to med school, then after med school went to a Ranger Bat as a GMO. I know for sure he's board certified in Internal Medicine, Cardiology and Nuc Med. Not too many triple boarded guys out there. I would suggest you guys get your facts straight before you start shooting your mouths off.
 

IgD

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The image of the "yes man" administration-oriented Medical Corps officer is nothing more than a convenient straw man employed by those who already have negative feelings towards the system. Of course such officers exist, but of course they are few and far between.

Is there a difference in the mentality on the greenside vs. the blueside? On the greenside you are surrounded by the warfighter ethos. Are you near a MTF? If so, what is the relationship like between your operational unit and the blueside?
 

RichL025

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This army doc is tabbed out like crazy!!! How is this possible???

Caravalho's decorations include the Legion of Merit, Meritorious Service Medal (with 6 Oak Leaf Clusters), Joint Service Commendation Medal, Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal (with 3 Oak Leaf Clusters), Flight Surgeon Badge, Expert Field Medical Badge, Parachutist Badge, Scuba Diver Badge, Ranger Tab and Special Forces Tab."

:wow:

He was obviously a special forces medic or 18A before going to medical school. Not really that unusual. The only thing that IS unusual is that he made general... which leads me to guess he was an 18A (officer) when he was in SF.
 
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Homunculus

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The majority of my staff in internship were at the O5/O6 level, and without exception they stood up for their residents with the command and consistently upheld the highest standards of medical care for their patients.

My current Regimental Surgeon and Divison Surgeon are superior clinicians available to help those like me when any time we need it. They also regularly stand up to both our own command and other affiliated commands when they feel the care of our Marines is being threatened.

The image of the "yes man" administration-oriented Medical Corps officer is nothing more than a convenient straw man employed by those who already have negative feelings towards the system. Of course such officers exist, but of course they are few and far between.

i didn't say it was true of him, just that it exists. at the MEDCEN i trained at, the O-5's and O-6's were great as well-- it's the line version of them i've had issues with. and no, it's not a strawman, i've met them in real life and if i hadn't seen them with my own eyes and witnessed it firsthand i wouldn't have believed it, either.

i also did not have negative feelings going in-- if anything i leaned more on the positive side. but my experiences as an attending have definitely changed things.

-- your friendly neighborhood glad they can't stop time caveman
 

Mirror Form

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The majority of my staff in internship were at the O5/O6 level, and without exception they stood up for their residents with the command and consistently upheld the highest standards of medical care for their patients.

But none of them are trying to become generals. Most 06 doc's have reached their terminal rank as far as they're concerned.

The image of the "yes man" administration-oriented Medical Corps officer is nothing more than a convenient straw man employed by those who already have negative feelings towards the system. Of course such officers exist, but of course they are few and far between.

Oh really? So why do we have AHLTA again? Because for about 5 years our senior leadership wouldn't admit that it was terrible b/c that would have made them look bad. So they forced it down the throats of the entire military and now it's the #3 reason docs get out (right behind pay discrepancy and deployment).
 

mann976

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its posts like this that really undermine the usefullness of this forum (which in general is very useful, at least I think).

Why the F should we be questioning the motives, qualifications (either medical or military) of a decorated flag officer that none of us have ever worked for? Maybe the guy's really hard working and wanted to become BOTH a great officer and a clinician! It has been done before . . .Or maybe not. (not all flag officers are great people. see the latest Navy Times about Adm "Gropper"). The point is if you don't know him nor his work, you should shut the F up.

If you really want to call the guy out on something (and if you have good reason/evidence to do so), why don't you write a letter to the Army Times and state your concerns. Oh except in that correspondence you'd have to identify yourself. Then if it turns out you're wrong and the general is a stand-up guy, you'd get your a** kicked off the Fin planet!
 

edmadison

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its posts like this that really undermine the usefullness of this forum (which in general is very useful, at least I think).

Why the F should we be questioning the motives, qualifications (either medical or military) of a decorated flag officer that none of us have ever worked for?

I absolutely agree with this. If any of my comments offended, I apologize. In my post, I was mainly disputing the OPs title: "The most high speed military officer ever". What I was trying to point out is that badges and awards all need to be placed in context. I know some fine O-6 medical officers who have no badges and their highest award is an ARCOM. On the other hand I know guys that have badges and awards that go over their left shoulder who aren't worth a dime. Don't look at the awards (don't get me started on this ridiculous process) look at the man.

Ed
 

Homunculus

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I absolutely agree with this. If any of my comments offended, I apologize. In my post, I was mainly disputing the OPs title: "The most high speed military officer ever". What I was trying to point out is that badges and awards all need to be placed in context. I know some fine O-6 medical officers who have no badges and their highest award is an ARCOM. On the other hand I know guys that have badges and awards that go over their left shoulder who aren't worth a dime. Don't look at the awards (don't get me started on this ridiculous process) look at the man.

Ed

i was shocked during my recent "pre deployment validation" to learn that simply being assigned to a unit (or deploying with them) allows one to wear airborne, ranger, or SF tabs-- and never go to airborne or ranger school. and if you get deployed with them, their combat patches and stick with you.

kinda mind boggling to me. anyone else come across this?

--your friendly neighborhood wishes he was getting a cooler combat patch but it'll do caveman
 

core0

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i was shocked during my recent "pre deployment validation" to learn that simply being assigned to a unit (or deploying with them) allows one to wear airborne, ranger, or SF tabs-- and never go to airborne or ranger school. and if you get deployed with them, their combat patches and stick with you.

kinda mind boggling to me. anyone else come across this?

--your friendly neighborhood wishes he was getting a cooler combat patch but it'll do caveman
You would be partially correct (unless things have changed in the last few years). There are two types of patches. The normal one is worn on the left sleeve. The combat patch is worn on the right sleeve (or in army parlance the "shoulder sleeve insignia — former wartime service"). If you are SF qualified ie have attended and passed the Q course you can wear the special forces tab above the left sleeve patch. If you have attended and passed ranger school you can wear the ranger tab above the left shoulder patch. If the unit is designated airborne this is part of the insignia and you wear the tab above the patch. Note that individual units within a unit can carry different designations.

For example if someone is a member of 10th Mountain division they wear this patch:
10thMtnDivTypes.jpg

If they were a member of the long range surveillance detachment of the 10th mountain they would wear the airborne tab above the mountain tab. When you are awarded the combat patch the tabs that you were wearing it at the time come with it. So someone that went to Iraq with the 10th Mountain LRSD and then was assigned to 1 ID would have a 1 ID patch on their left shoulder (with appropriate ranger and SF tabs if qualified). And a 10th Mountain patch on their right shoulder with the Mountain and Airborne tabs. Note also that the headgear is unit specific. Every member of an airborne unit can wear the maroon beret whether they are airborne qualified or not.

So airborne and other unit designations do stay with the combat patch. SF and Ranger tabs are individual achievements and only belong to the individual.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 

almostfamous

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In the Navy you have two collar devices: one for medical corps and the other is your rank. Someone told me once that you have to keep a balance between the two devices. I met some interesting characters who gave up their identity as a physician. One high ranking individual introduced himself as a "former physician". What do you think of that?

That's because when you get 'up there' in rank you change your designator from a physician (2100) to some other admin-number. Total bu11****.

I'm finding it more difficult than I imagined to find the balance on the green side.
 

IgD

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Exactly. Most O6 docs have reached their terminal rank. That's probably why my experiences with O6 docs have all been really good; very few actually want a star. Hell, I was in Bethesda, and never met a prospective admiral, which is where I would expect to find them all. This notion that there are legions of crappy "yes men" officers floating around trying to get picked up for O7 is stupid.

I respect your opinion but I think that is naive. I sat in many meetings with senior medical officers and one of the main considerations trying to decide how to deal with blueside issues was "how is this going to make me look?".

Setting aside the fact that AHLTA isn't really a bad system . . .

Are you kidding? The problems with AHLTA have been publicly acknowledged at the highest levels of the DoD. Did you see this:
http://www.health.mil/AHLTAWebHall.aspx
 

adismo

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chest skittles does not make someone high speed. which shows that maybe you dont know what really goes into someone being high speed.

the ER doc on the front line with the shock trauma platoons, risking his ass on a daily basis. or the trauma trained FP doc working with special forces and pulling OR time with the surgeons, who run world class surgical resuscitation in the middle of a desert battlefield. that's high speed.

not to detract from the General's accomplishments, but there are plenty of field experienced doctors out there who have earned their "blood wings" and that is something you dont get to see on anyone's chest.
 

mitchconnie

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chest skittles does not make someone high speed. which shows that maybe you dont know what really goes into someone being high speed.

Very well said. The fact is that medals and badges mean little on the medical side. We've all seen some badge collectors who are all "tabbed up" but can't operate themselves out of a wet paper sack. Conversely, physicians just don't get awards for achievements that are medically relevant, even things that are exponentially more difficult than any hooah-hooah 2-week training course. You don't get a badge for surviving 5 years of Q3 trauma call in your surgical residency. You don't get a medal for publishing an article in the New England Journal of Medicine. You could be the most skilled combat trauma surgeon on the planet and it won't get you a single one of the above-mentioned "chest skittles."

And the Awards that ARE given often come very cheaply. For instance, on my current deployment some of my co-workers received the bronze star. No offense to them, but C'mon. We spent 6 months entirely inside the wire in an air-conditioned hospital facility and saw ZERO combat action beyond a couple mortars that didn't land anywhere near us. We aren't even really that busy, and their alleged "achievements" were entirely paperwork-related--i.e. "correctly processed 300 order forms as leader of the OR supply team." The awards system has really become a joke in many instances.
 

IgD

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Conversely, physicians just don't get awards for achievements that are medically relevant, even things that are exponentially more difficult than any hooah-hooah 2-week training course. You don't get a badge for surviving 5 years of Q3 trauma call in your surgical residency. You don't get a medal for publishing an article in the New England Journal of Medicine. You could be the most skilled combat trauma surgeon on the planet and it won't get you a single one of the above-mentioned "chest skittles."

This is very well said. There was an 06 physician who got a Bronze star for going on deployment. He never really published a paper. He was widely rumored to have dated a resident (20 years younger?) while he was an attending that he later married. My colleague told me he wrote a book about medicine in combat during the work day. Later I observed him to try to set the policy according to his book. He would go around and public speak and sell books while on active duty.

My department head in the civilian world is well published, well spoken and a good clinician.

There was a saying at my command "the Emporer has no clothes". Look through the rank, chest skittles, grandiose policies and see what is left.
 

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All that I have to add to this conversation is this. I had an office call with Dr. Caravalho when he was still the USASOC (US Army Special Operations Command) Surgeon right before I decided to apply to medical school two years ago.

We had switched to ACU's by then and I really can't remember him wearing all of the badges on his uniform (which says even more about him, most of the SF guys I worked with don't wear any of that crap in garrison, they don't need to). He was very down to earth, very real about the demands of military medicine, extremely smart and I was impressed that he was willing to let me chat with him for almost an hour about military medicine and medicine in general. He focused on the demands that it places on your family (medicine that is) and how I would really need to stay focused on balancing my life in a way that didn't destroy my personal life along the way.

He didn't say anything about all of the "cool guy" schools he went to, just about the various training he received as a cardiologist with a nuclear medicine fellowship (if I recall correctly).

Great guy, I was very pleased to see someone like him get promoted to general officer.
 

elderjack21

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There was an 06 physician who got a Bronze star for going on deployment. QUOTE]

PS - Bronze star means almost nothing as they are generally given out to anyone above 0-4 during deployments. Now if you are talking Bronze star with "V" device, you have something special.
 

GMO2003

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I agree with the above. I have had the pleasure of seeing these "AAFES" soldiers all decked out in their various awards, tabs, insignias or whatever you call it...the worst is walking through the airport and seeing someone in their dress uniform look like their going to the presidential inauguration:smuggrin: very entertaining:laugh:
 

ieatpizza

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Setting aside speculation on his competence as a clinician and leader and about how many publications in major medical journals that he has for a moment, SCUBA school, Ranger school, and the SF course and you guys aren't even a little impressed?
 

alferec

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Wow, I come back in a couple of days and I didn't know that this thread would go in this direction. I appreciate the other points of view, but of course "high speed" is very subjective. I still think the general's got the best of both worlds when it comes to Army Medicine i.e. well accomplished physician with lots of high speed Army training on under his belt...and he's made it to BG. How many people do you know have those kinds of accomplishments? It's really hard to say that's not impressive IMHO.
 

mitchconnie

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This is the worst smear job I've seen on this forum in a long time. Amazing that people are still sticking with the baseless derision despite the testimonials of people who actually know him. (*cough* . . . stop already IgD . . . *cough*)

Wow, I come back in a couple of days and I didn't know that this thread would go in this direction.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Gen. Caravalho is not a strong leader, a brilliant physician, a great American patriot, and a stand-up guy. I have no doubt that he is, but many posters above are simply making the point that you really can't judge ANY of that by the number of medals and badges. In fact, I'm equally sure that if the General were posting, he would agree 100% with this point.

And if you didn't anticipate that the thread would go in this direction, then you haven't been around here very long.
 

alferec

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I think the lesson of this thread is:

accomplishments ≠ character

Enough said. Frankly it's pretty sad to see all this negativity here (and a lot of the other military medicine threads) - I hope Army optometry won't be as bad...
 

GMO2003

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I think the lesson of this thread is:

accomplishments ≠ character

Enough said. Frankly it's pretty sad to see all this negativity here (and a lot of the other military medicine threads) - I hope Army optometry won't be as bad...


I agree...MOD close this thread...most of the military ODs I've come across seem pretty happy FWIW...good luck on your future
 

mitchconnie

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Frankly it's pretty sad to see all this negativity here (and a lot of the other military medicine threads)

I don't think that this forum is excessively negative, and if the tone of this thread "saddens" you, then you are going to be catatonically depressed when you interact with the regular Army. Seriously man, do you think that the military is all about high-fives, and patriotic flag-waving, and patting each other on the back for a job well done? Unhappy American soldiers complaining about their crappy organization has been a military tradition since 1775. Spend a few months living in a tent in the desert, and you'll hear bitching that will make this forum look like www.hellokitty.com. It ain't all smilies and rainbows, and I can vouch for that.
 

RichL025

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Bitching and complaining has been a soldier's right for thousands of years <g>.

There's a passage in Caesar's commentary on the Gallic wars, something to the effect of: as long as his centurions were complaining, he knew everything was alright....
 

RichL025

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Better re-read your UCMJ, my friend. That right only extends to the enlisted.

Oh really? Please educate me, because to the best of my knowledge (aside from insubordination and generic statements about good order and discipline, which are NOT the same things as bitching & complaining) the ONLY restriction is that commissioned officers cannot disparage the commander-in-chief.

Or do you know something I don't?

I await my edification....
 

Two-Bit

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Oh really? Please educate me, because to the best of my knowledge (aside from insubordination and generic statements about good order and discipline, which are NOT the same things as bitching & complaining) the ONLY restriction is that commissioned officers cannot disparage the commander-in-chief.

Or do you know something I don't?

I await my edification....

888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
889. ART. 89 DISRESPECT TOWARD SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER
Any person subject to this chapter who behaves with disrespect toward his superior commissioned officer shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
809. ART. 90. ASSAULTING OR WILLFULLY DISOBEYING SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER.
Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) strikes his superior commissioned officer or draws or lifts up any weapon or offers any violence against him while he is in the execution of his officer; or
(2) willfully disobeys a lawful command of his superior commissioned officer;
shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, and if the offense is committed at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.
891. ART. 91. INSUBORDINATE CONDUCT TOWARD WARRANT OFFICER, NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER, OR PETTY OFFICER
Any warrant officer or enlisted member who--
(1) strikes or assaults a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer, while that officer is in the execution of his office;
(2) willfully disobeys the lawful order of a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer; or
(3) treats with contempt or is disrespectful in language or deportment toward a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer while that officer is in the execution of his office;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
 

Two-Bit

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Just realized what the original post was. High speed, etc. etc. I guess I'm just 'giddy' about being a double-digit poster.
Only 88 more and I'll be a triple-digit poster.

Here's the link from the previous post in case you were thinking about a career in law:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm
 
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RichL025

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Well, my career in law seems to have been dashed, but I respectfully submit that your reading comprehension needs work.

NONE of those articles you posted is about bitching and complaining, fer Pete's sake.

"disrespect", "disobeying", "insubordinate"

Completely different things.

If you're having trouble with those words, try a thesaurus
 

RichL025

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Despite your obnoxious tone, I'll help you out.

The limitations of internet communication. Sarcasm was what I was aiming for.


He was referencing Article 88 which prohibits "comtemptuous" speech against certain elected officials.

Here's a discussion: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20030619_falvy.html

I bolded part of your quote above.

Let me be blunt: you either are not realizing, or choose not to admit to realizing, the difference between "bitching and complaining" and "insubordination".

Damn sure Caesar would have executed a legionnaire who was insubordinate. And when I was an NCO, I would not have tolerated any of my troops being insubordinate (although execution wasn't in my toolbag of corrective measures), although I (became) smart enough to let them bitch when the timing was appropriate.

Now, be truthful... do you really not understand the difference between those two, or are you one of those types who absolutely refuses to admit he made a mistake on the internet and will go on saying the same thing over and over again?
 

RichL025

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Bitching & moaning (typical examples that _I_ probably uttered as a young trooper):

"Man, how much %#&$& further are we gonna hump today!"
"Oh, crap, I hate digging ^*#$)&$ fighting positions"
"Jeez, why the hell do I have to carry the extra '60 ammo AGAIN!"
"I'm getting $#%* tired of MREs, when is the old man gonna get us some hot chow?"
"ANOTHER 13 month deplyoment.. $*#@ when is this %$*# gonna end!!!???"


Now, please tell me you REALLY think that any of the above is prosecutable for either insubordination OR contemptuous speech.

Please.
 
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regnaR175

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So airborne and other unit designations do stay with the combat patch. SF and Ranger tabs are individual achievements and only belong to the individual.

This is exactly right. Under no circumstance can one whom has not completed Ranger School wear the Ranger Tab. Likewise, under no circumstance can one whom has not completed Q-course wear the Long Tab (SF tab.) In the enlisted world, completing Ranger School changes the SQI (special qualification 5th digit) of the MOS to victor. For instance, an SPC infantryman with no special qualifications is an 11B1O, one whom has completed Airborne School is then 11B1P, with Ranger School it becomes 11B1V.

To expand upon the right shoulder unit patches vs. Ranger Tabs. You will never see a Ranger Tab on the right shoulder...and if you do you need hog-tie the individual for being a soup sandwich. What you will see however, is a Ranger Scroll on the right shoulder. My Avatar is an example of the Ranger Scroll, particularly for 1st Ranger Battalion. The three Battalions of the 75th Ranger Regiment are the actual USASOC Ranger Units. Rangers in a Ranger Battalion deploy with their Ranger Battalion just as conventional infantrymen deploy with their conventional infantry unit. After coming home they get to wear their deploying unit's patch on the right shoulder. If that unit is the 82nd they wear the patch of the 82nd (which does automatically include an Airborne rocker as core0 implied.) If that unit is one of the battalions of the 75th Ranger Regiment, they wear the Ranger Scroll of their respective Battalion.

Ranger School (where you get the Tab, not the Scroll) however, is a school that soldiers from any unit can attend for three months to gain unconventional leadership skills...very effective leadership skills that is. But actually being assigned to a Ranger Battalion is how one earns the Scroll and Tan Beret. Ranger School makes one Ranger qualified, but after school they go back to their regular unit. Graduating RIP (the Ranger selection program for the 75th) is how one goes to a Ranger Batt and gets to call themselves Ranger. Rangers in Ranger Batt have to go to Ranger School in order to make it past the rank of E4, but are deemed Rangers by having graduated RIP and subsequently serve in a Ranger Batt, regardless of having gone to school or not. Some say we (Rangers) are picky about whom gets to be called Ranger and whom simply is Ranger Qualified, but that is because we do the Ranger job every single day, not for only three months. We are expected to live up to the Ranger Creed regardless of where we are or what we are doing, if we are at home or deployed. I say "we" loosely as I have been out for a few years. However, I still have that creed tattooed to my ilium (humor of the Hippocrates variety), so I still say "we". By the way, let me point out that I am not in any way trying to diminish anyone's accomplishments in earning the Tab...it is a very hard thing to get, and by no means is it not EARNED.

Now, to clarify the role of physicians in a Ranger Batt or SF group: Each Ranger Battalion has its own Surgeon, PA (or two) and a whole lot of high speed medics. Beyond that, one man of every eight man squad is selected annually to become NREMT-I (I was blessed to be selected for this, which is why I am so effing nuts about becoming a physician.) This is to increase the number of medically trained Rangers in operation. It is because of the Battalion Surgeon and his crew that every single Ranger can start a line in the dark...with or without NODS. His job is not only to keep us well, but to keep us alive by keeping us trained. In turn, he trains and fights with us, as he went through the same exact training and selection factors to get there that we did. Whats more, he's our own personal FP doc for our families when we are home. It is very similar in SF groups. Most Batt surgeons for the 75th that I know, had their Tabs before medical school, which was why they were allowed to go to ROP (RIP for O's) as a physician.

So, to sum up my rediculously long post. No, you cannot have a Tab without graduating Ranger School. That's synonymous with wearing a Bird as a butter-bar. No, you cannot wear a Scroll without being in or having been deployed with the 75th Ranger Regiment. And yes, you can be a Ranger physician. Therefore, by sheer implication from this gentleman's uniform, he did complete both Q-Course and Ranger School. My Battalion PA had both his Long Tab and Ranger Tab because he served as an 18D (SF medic) in an SF unit before becoming commissioned as a PA.

I hope my jibber-jabbering has brought some enlightenment as to the the way it works with Tabs and patches. If not, maybe I have provided you with a decent sleep-aid in the form of rambling so you can yawn your way to a nice slumber. Either way, take care.

RLTW!
 
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