The next time you hear someone trash Osteopathy, point them to this:

[echo87]

It's interesting to me that UMMC doesn't allow DO students to do visiting rotations (or so VSAS says). I live/work in baltimore so I looked it up thinking it would be nice to be in the area during MS3/4

Sorry for the tangent lol

---

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[Gandyy]

My assumption was that everything is going to be more competitive now for DOs.

Yep. Realistically speaking, yes. This is why I say the borderline MD applicant gets completely and utterly run over in the medical school admissions world because most of them dont make it into MD schools, and yet they are discriminated against on the same level as another DO matriculant who got into a DO school with a 24/3.3. Of course, I dont expect residency PDs to look at MCAT scores and undergrad GPAs. Thats not my point.

 

[docycle]

Yep. Realistically speaking, yes. This is why I say the borderline MD applicant gets completely and utterly run over in the medical school admissions world because most of them dont make it into MD schools, and yet they are discriminated against on the same level as another DO matriculant who got into a DO school with a 24/3.3. Of course, I dont expect residency PDs to look at MCAT scores and undergrad GPAs. Thats not my point.

What is your point? Borderline MDs have a harder time than average DOs? I actually don't understand what you're trying to say or how it's relevant to the fact DOs are going to have a harder time.

Btw where'd you get accepted?

 

[Gandyy]

What is your point? Borderline MDs have a harder time than average DOs? I actually don't understand what you're trying to say or how it's relevant to the fact DOs are going to have a harder time.

Btw where'd you get accepted?

My overall point is that its just become harder for everyone at every point in the process from getting into medical school to getting into the residency of their choice.

I got into various osteopathic schools.

 

[docycle]

My overall point is that its just become harder for everyone at every point in the process from getting into medical school to getting into the residency of their choice.

Do you mean the merger has caused these problems? That's what we were talking about. The merger seems to have done no readily foreseeable good for DOs. MDs get access to all AOA programs and meanwhile the bigoted ACGME programs are still bigoted. Lovely.

But yeah I don't know; competition has gone up and down. AAMC has a graph of it. It dips and peaks before coming back to where we are today.

I got into various osteopathic schools.

Avoiding providing anything resembling a specific answer to questions about your cycle. You, sir, have mastered being a premed.

 

[Gandyy]

Do you mean the merger has caused these problems? That's what we were talking about. The merger seems to have done no readily foreseeable good for DOs. MDs get access to all AOA programs and meanwhile the bigoted ACGME programs are still bigoted. Lovely.

But yeah I don't know; competition has gone up and down. AAMC has a graph of it. It dips and peaks before coming back to where we are today.


Avoiding providing anything resembling a specific answer to questions about your cycle. You, sir, have mastered being a premed.

Well yea more or less. Plus, its just harder to get into both DO and MD medical school nowadays.

Haha, I'd like to maintain what little anonymity I have left on these forums

 

[Dr.Smexy]

Do you mean the merger has caused these problems? That's what we were talking about. The merger seems to have done no readily foreseeable good for DOs. MDs get access to all AOA programs and meanwhile the bigoted ACGME programs are still bigoted. Lovely.

But yeah I don't know; competition has gone up and down. AAMC has a graph of it. It dips and peaks before coming back to where we are today.



Avoiding providing anything resembling a specific answer to questions about your cycle. You, sir, have mastered being a premed.

Hey c'mon now, no need to be a hater. Don't get mad at the player get mad at the game (one that obviously AOA sucks but thinks they good at) It's time DOs hand over their exclusive residencies to us MDs...it's overdue to be honest

 

[docycle]

Hey c'mon now, no need to be a hater.Don't get mad at the player get mad at the game (one that obviously AOA sucks but thinks they good at) It's time DOs hand over their exclusive residencies to us MDs...it's overdue to be honest

You're trying to trigger me.

And it's working.

 

[Gandyy]

You're trying to trigger me.

And it's working.

Eh, dont let it bother you. Its the internet.

 

[Theseus]

You're trying to trigger me.

And it's working.

He's pulling your nose.

 

[Theseus]

Do you mean the merger has caused these problems? That's what we were talking about. The merger seems to have done no readily foreseeable good for DOs. MDs get access to all AOA programs and meanwhile the bigoted ACGME programs are still bigoted. Lovely.

But yeah I don't know; competition has gone up and down. AAMC has a graph of it. It dips and peaks before coming back to where we are today.



Avoiding providing anything resembling a specific answer to questions about your cycle. You, sir, have mastered being a premed.

As said before, the "bigoted" ACGME programs will see a rise in DO applicants once AOA residencies get absorbed/closed by ACGME. That may be good or bad, but it does make it seem like being on the other side of the fence is an advantage at this point in time.

Osteopathic world will have to adapt to these changes. No school wants unmatched applicants.

 

[docycle]

He's pulling your nose.

As was I.

As said before, the "bigoted" ACGME programs will see a rise in DO applicants once AOA residencies get absorbed/closed by ACGME.

Assuming some crazy amount don't close, I don't see why DOs would suddenly move to other programs just because of the merger. And even if they did, they're applying to more competitive spots, whereas MDs now have access to the AOA's (previously) less competitive spots. Ergo, MDs win this round.

That may be good or bad, but it does make it seem like being on the other side of the fence is an advantage at this point in time.

It's actually hard to tell here who you're referring to with the "other side of the fence." Assuming you're talking about DOs, I would say no for the aforementioned reason.

Osteopathic world will have to adapt to these changes. No school wants unmatched applicants.

I'm sure they will. But given the substantially increased competition now, that's going to entail taking a cut in the number of DOs hitting competitive spots. They had it controlled before where DOs could get by despite on average not being as competitive as MDs. Now no longer. Seems to me like more than anyone DO students are going to have to adapt to this by being extra competitive. But wait, MD schools have better resources. Oh well. Guess we'll all go PCP now.

 

[Goro]

Actually, the vast majority of my students take USMLE. COMLEX they treat as this nuisance to deal with prior to USMLE. I suspect that it's students from the older COMs (PCOM, KCOM, CCOM etc) that push COMLEX over USMLE.

Also, here's a ProTip - my MD program director doesn't know how to interpret your COMLEX score, so go ahead and shell out a little extra cash so you have a USMLE score on file. You wouldn't show up to an orgy in a clown suit, put on a thong so they know you belong there.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

I honestly don't think the merger will make it more difficult for DO's to match good specialties. There are quite a few DO's matching into great ACGME specialty programs already. If anybody is going to be affected by this movement, I believe it will be the IMG students. I don't have a problem with those who feel going the DO route will detriment their career, this just means I will have a better shot getting into a DO program .

 

[docycle]

Also, here's a ProTip - my MD program director doesn't know how to interpret your COMLEX score, so go ahead and shell out a little extra cash so you have a USMLE score on file. You wouldn't show up to an orgy in a clown suit, put on a thong so they know you belong there.

I always wondered about this statement everyone says. Can't they just google what a good score is? Like alright PD wants, say, 80th percentile. PD just googles what a 80th percentile is on COMLEX. I did that and found this tool they have: http://www.nbome.org/score-conversion.asp. So ok like 605 is 80th percentile. Therefore, anyone >=605 is good.

Or is it more that the PD literally just thinks the test sucks and doesn't want to trust it despite the fact one scores well? Because that's less about the PD "interpreting" the scores, and more about the PD "despising" the test.

@Goro No one ever goes full AOA for their match?

 

[Goro]

The older COMs seem to send more grads into AOA residencies than the newer ones. Some, like mine, by virtue of geography have to send more kids into ACGME sites because there aren't a lot of AOA residencies on our side of the Missouri River, especially in the far Western states.

My weaker students tend to end up in AOA Primary Care residencies, and the strongest ones in AOA competitive specialties (those that don't go for and/or can't get into ACGME ones).

NBOME has a lot of evidence that COMLEX is as good at its job as USMLE. But there are plenty of ACGME PDs who haven't a clue as to what COMLEX is.

I believe that this is a generational thing.

I always wondered about this statement everyone says. Can't they just google what a good score is? Like alright PD wants, say, 80th percentile. PD just googles what a 80th percentile is on COMLEX. I did that and found this tool they have: http://www.nbome.org/score-conversion.asp. So ok like 605 is 80th percentile. Therefore, anyone >=605 is good.

Or is it more that the PD literally just thinks the test sucks and doesn't want to trust it despite the fact one scores well? Because that's less about the PD "interpreting" the scores, and more about the PD "despising" the test.

@Goro No one ever goes full AOA for their match?

 

[Whats up Doc!]

Love it Goro thanks for the link

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I always wondered about this statement everyone says. Can't they just google what a good score is? Like alright PD wants, say, 80th percentile. PD just googles what a 80th percentile is on COMLEX. I did that and found this tool they have: http://www.nbome.org/score-conversion.asp. So ok like 605 is 80th percentile. Therefore, anyone >=605 is good.

Or is it more that the PD literally just thinks the test sucks and doesn't want to trust it despite the fact one scores well? Because that's less about the PD "interpreting" the scores, and more about the PD "despising" the test.

@Goro No one ever goes full AOA for their match?

I honestly don't think the merger will make it more difficult for DO's to match good specialties. There are quite a few DO's matching into great ACGME specialty programs already. If anybody is going to be affected by this movement, I believe it will be the IMG students. I don't have a problem with those who feel going the DO route will detriment their career, this just means I will have a better shot getting into a DO program .

You guys are naive. The merger means less specialties for DOs. A lot of former DO spots are already catering to MD. COMLEX is not only seen inferior, but if you can score well, why not take the USMLE to prove it?

 

[deleted731525]

I honestly don't think the merger will make it more difficult for DO's to match good specialties. There are quite a few DO's matching into great ACGME specialty programs already. If anybody is going to be affected by this movement, I believe it will be the IMG students. I don't have a problem with those who feel going the DO route will detriment their career, this just means I will have a better shot getting into a DO program .

I actually feel like IMGs might end up being biggest winners of the merger in practice. MD students for the most part wont desire most of the previously AOA residencies outside the ultra competitive specialties. Things stay mostly the same for them. The merger was necessary for DOs but in terms of matching to residency things will mostly stay the same for them. IMGs on the other hand have a ton more low tier residency programs they can now apply to that they previously could not. I have no clue how PDs of those programs will handle it, but I fear that there will be more competition from IMGs who do well on the USMLE.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

I actually feel like IMGs might end up being biggest winners of the merger in practice. MD students for the most part wont desire most of the previously AOA residencies outside the ultra competitive specialties. Things stay mostly the same for them. The merger was necessary for DOs but in terms of matching to residency things will mostly stay the same for them. IMGs on the other hand have a ton more low tier residency programs they can now apply to that they previously could not. I have no clue how PDs of those programs will handle it, but I fear that there will be more competition from IMGs who do well on the USMLE.

Or nah...DO students will always come out ahead of IMG. Not even a debate.

 

[deleted731525]

Or nah...DO students will always come out ahead of IMG. Not even a debate.

but the IMGs who make it to the match tend to have good step scores(caribbean schools kick out students who they dont think will do well). Im not talking about high scoring DO vs high scoring IMG, because I am assuming the DO in that case will be going for more competitive programs. I am talking about the low scoring DO who previously had some of the lower tier AOA residencies to fall back on vs high scoring IMG who is just trying to match wherever he can.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

but the IMGs who make it to the match tend to have good step scores(caribbean schools kick out students who they dont think will do well). Im not talking about high scoring DO vs high scoring IMG, because I am assuming the DO in that case will be going for more competitive programs. I am talking about the low scoring DO who previously had some of the lower tier AOA residencies to fall back on vs high scoring IMG who is just trying to match wherever he can.

Step 1 is only a piece of the resume. You may not know but Step 1 is not everything in the eyes of residencies directors. Where you go to school, your rotations qualities and the research you do all matter. Not to mention LOR from credible physicians in the field.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

You guys are naive. The merger means less specialties for DOs. A lot of former DO spots are already catering to MD. COMLEX is not only seen inferior, but if you can score well, why not take the USMLE to prove it?

Yup this is why I actually feel bad for the incoming DOs.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Yup this is why I actually feel bad for the incoming DOs.

In fairness for PCP and other small specialties like psych or pm&r DOs might match better because there won't be that run for only one match with fear of not matching at all. Lower spectrum DO students are preferred over Caribbean.

 

[Goro]

One of the reasons for the merger was to squeeze out the IMGs.

I actually feel like IMGs might end up being biggest winners of the merger in practice. MD students for the most part wont desire most of the previously AOA residencies outside the ultra competitive specialties. Things stay mostly the same for them. The merger was necessary for DOs but in terms of matching to residency things will mostly stay the same for them. IMGs on the other hand have a ton more low tier residency programs they can now apply to that they previously could not. I have no clue how PDs of those programs will handle it, but I fear that there will be more competition from IMGs who do well on the USMLE.

 

[Gandyy]

That's a reasonable question. There are two reasons:

(1) Maybe you can convert a COMLEX score to a percentile, but you can't do it with USMLE. The two digit score isn't a percentile for us. And since you're trying to compare MD to DO students, knowing how well the DO students compare to other DO students is not helpful.

(2) Why would an MD bother to try to figure that out? They have a bunch of MD students whose qualifications they can easily evaluate relative to each other. Then there's a handful of DO students with scores they don't know how to interpret. If you're a busy surgeon who also runs a residency, would you take the highly-qualified known quantities, or gamble that you're interpeting the scores on a test you're completely unfamiliar with? It's great that you crushed a test that, in part, measures your knowledge of OMM, but I can assure you my PD doesn't give a crap about neck twisting and rib readjustments.

I am of the opinion that the COMLEX needs to go and as for the OMM, it needs to be part of competency based exams that you pass in order to graduate osteopathic medical school. 90 percent of DOs dont even use OMM.

 

[Theseus]

I am of the opinion that the COMLEX needs to go and as for the OMM, it needs to be part of competency based exams that you pass in order to graduate osteopathic medical school. 90 percent of DOs dont even use OMM.

Loss of $.

 

[Theseus]

As was I.



Assuming some crazy amount don't close, I don't see why DOs would suddenly move to other programs just because of the merger. And even if they did, they're applying to more competitive spots, whereas MDs now have access to the AOA's (previously) less competitive spots. Ergo, MDs win this round.



It's actually hard to tell here who you're referring to with the "other side of the fence." Assuming you're talking about DOs, I would say no for the aforementioned reason.



I'm sure they will. But given the substantially increased competition now, that's going to entail taking a cut in the number of DOs hitting competitive spots. They had it controlled before where DOs could get by despite on average not being as competitive as MDs. Now no longer. Seems to me like more than anyone DO students are going to have to adapt to this by being extra competitive. But wait, MD schools have better resources. Oh well. Guess we'll all go PCP now.

Oh well, PCP here we go.

 

[Gandyy]

Loss of $.

Which is awful! I wish LCME was also the governing body of DO clinical years.

 

[Theseus]

Which is awful! I wish LCME was also the governing body of DO clinical years.

Look on the brighter side, billing for OMM can net you some extra income.

 

[docycle]

Yup this is why I actually feel bad for the incoming DOs.

Poor little us.

Look on the brighter side, billing for OMM can net you some extra income.

Someone claimed making 3k/day in an OMM PCP pp. Do you guys know who I'm talking about? Can't remember the thread. Anyway such a plus would only exist in a context where you have profit-sharing or just straight up own the pp.

 

[Mjolner]

That's a reasonable question. There are two reasons:

(1) Maybe you can convert a COMLEX score to a percentile, but you can't do it with USMLE. The two digit score isn't a percentile for us. And since you're trying to compare MD to DO students, knowing how well the DO students compare to other DO students is not helpful.

How can you not convert a test score to a percentile? I mean I'm sure the PDs are aware of the average USMLE score which is 50th percentile, right?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Poor little us.



Someone claimed making 3k/day in an OMM PCP pp. Do you guys know who I'm talking about? Can't remember the thread. Anyway such a plus would only exist in a context where you have profit-sharing or just straight up own the pp.

A private practice omm doc that only takes cash can make 300k per year.

 

[Theseus]

A private practice omm doc that only takes cash can make 300k per year.

Lol see ya I'm going DO.

...Just kidding, money isn't my main motivation.

 

[IsWhat]

SDN is almost always wrong on issues like this - taking the black and white approach per usual. All this talk about MDs taking the competitive specialty spots away from DO students... It is highly underestimated just how competetive top DO students are, and I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see the once AOA ROADS students of the world matching at top ACGME residencies.

 

[Mjolner]

You would think, right? But the way it's scored, they give you the mean and the approximate standard deviation. But when all the applicants are in the high range, very hard to say with any certainty what the percentile is for a 250 vs 260. And truthfully, that may not even be a valid comparison to make based on the scoring system, but it's one we make nonetheless. Now figure out where a COMLEX 620 sits vs a USMLE 255... You see how it gets confusing.

Oh. I'm not saying you can find a COMLEX number that corresponds to a USMLE number. I mean that would be like comparing paint by numbers to a Monet.

The COMLEX is not NEARLY as rigorous as USMLE and I don't care what reasons DOs give for not taking it, it's fear that's stopping them.

 

[IslandStyle808]

SDN is almost always wrong on issues like this - taking the black and white approach per usual. All this talk about MDs taking the competitive specialty spots away from DO students... It is highly underestimated just how competetive top DO students are, and I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see the once AOA ROADS students of the world matching at top ACGME residencies.

MD students have the resources that DO students don't (ex. research with competitive specialties attached to school, contact with well known PDs, solid rotations with in house residencies etc.). This is what handicaps the best DO student.

Even among MD schools there are also tiers as well. Here is a look at John's Hopkin's radiation oncology program. Look at what medical school they have all graduated from. At least half are from prestigious medical schools that even your relatives know. DOs are breaking barriers and glad they are, but these places will still use the school as one deciding factor in picking from stellar applicants.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/radi...g/radiation_oncology_residency/residents.html

 

[Gandyy]

MD students have the resources that DO students don't (ex. research with competitive specialties attached to school, contact with well known PDs, solid rotations with in house residencies etc.). This is what handicaps the best DO student.

Even among MD schools there are also tiers as well. Here is a look at John's Hopkin's radiation oncology program. Look at what medical school they have all graduated from. At least half are from prestigious medical schools that even your relatives know. DOs are breaking barriers and glad they are, but these places will still use the school as one deciding factor in picking from stellar applicants.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/radi...g/radiation_oncology_residency/residents.html

Still though at programs like the ones you are listing, going to any state MD school is not going to help you land those spots anyways. Many people from low tier MD schools still end up in primary care anyways and have no real shot at programs like the one you linked.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Well damn. If PCP it is then PCP here I come. Finna finesse all the $$$ by being the most gunner PCP in my area and stack them $$$.
If it don't make money... it don't make sense!

 

[Gandyy]

Oh. I'm not saying you can find a COMLEX number that corresponds to a USMLE number. I mean that would be like comparing paint by numbers to a Monet.

The COMLEX is not NEARLY as rigorous as USMLE and I don't care what reasons DOs give for not taking it, it's fear that's stopping them.

Have you taken both exams? Because otherwise you have no basis for making such strong claims.

 

[Mjolner]

Have you taken both exams? Because otherwise you have no basis for making such strong claims.

Have you even looked at both exams?

Clearly not.

 

[Gandyy]

Have you even looked at both exams?

Clearly not.

No. So I guess you havent taken both exams?

 

[Mjolner]

No. So I guess you havent taken both exams?

No. But I'm studying for both so I have a bit of an idea what to expect, which you clearly do not.

 

[Mjolner]

Have you taken both exams? Because otherwise you have no basis for making such strong claims.

Wait. You're a premed? Time to stop talking about board exams like you know what you're doing.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Still though at programs like the ones you are listing, going to any state MD school is not going to help you land those spots anyways. Many people from low tier MD schools still end up in primary care anyways and have no real shot at programs like the one you linked.

Absolutely correct! Even if you were to turn all DO schools into MD schools, they would still be put into tiers. Being MD doesn't magically make your chances skyrocket. Even if DO schools break more barriers, they would still have a hard time matching into these places just like certain MD schools. This is what I meant.

 

[Gandyy]

No. But I'm studying for both so I have a bit of an idea what to expect, which you clearly do not.

Wait. You're a premed? Time to stop talking about board exams like you know what you're doing.

Perhaps you need to chill out and analyze what happened? I never "talked about board exams like you know what you're doing". I simply said that making strong statement like the one you made first about board exams without taking both is not really justifiable. You dont have to be in medical school to ask someone to have experience with something before they make strong statements.

For whatever reason, you are now hostile.

 

[Medschoolornah]

Wow a thread about DO schools turns into an argument comparing MD and DO schools. Why am I not surprised.

 

[Mjolner]

Perhaps you need to chill out and analyze what happened? I never "talked about board exams like you know what you're doing". I simply said that making strong statement like the one you made first about board exams without taking both is not really justifiable. You dont have to be in medical school to ask someone to have experience with something before they make strong statements.

For whatever reason, you are now hostile.

1) it's common knowledge that COMLEX is not as rigorous as USMLE

2) I'm currently studying and taking practice tests in each and can tell you there is a difference.

3) these are things you will learn while w med student so my statement about you being a premed and not getting it is justified.

4) IF you get in, you'll understand what I mean.

5) go back to pre-Osteo.

 

[Gandyy]

1) it's common knowledge that COMLEX is not as rigorous as USMLE

2) I'm currently studying and taking practice tests in each and can tell you there is a difference.

3) these are things you will learn while w med student so my statement about you being a premed and not getting it is justified.

4) IF you get in, you'll understand what I mean.

5) go back to pre-Osteo.

1) Its not common knowledge. Its an opinion, and two other friends of mine that have already taken both exams have said they are relatively similar.

2) Others who are much further in their medical education than YOU have told me otherwise.

3) I'll take my friends' opinions over some raging random on the internet.

4) I've already gotten into several medical schools.

5) If you scroll to the top of the page, you will see that we are already in Pre-Osteo. Do you even know where you are posting?

 

[Mjolner]

1) Its not common knowledge. Its an opinion, and two other friends of mine that have already taken the exam have said they are relatively similar.

2) Others who are much further in their medical education than YOU have told me otherwise.

3) I'll take my friend's opinions over some raging random on the internet.

4) I've already gotten into several medical schools.

5) If you scroll to the top of the page, you will see that we are already in Pre-Osteo. Do you know where you are posting?

1) it is. N=2 means two people are wrong in this case.
2) again n=2 means two people are wrong in this case
3) if they're you're friends that explains why they're wrong
4) I doubt that looking at your post history. It seems like you cast an HUGE net and keep talking about rejections.
5) oops. You're correct on that one. My bad.

Point is. I have experience in prepping for these exams and you have ZERO experience with them.

You're basing everything off what a couple of your friends say. If we're going to just discount my own experience with practice tests and prep materials and only deal with word of mouth, then as a MEDICAL STUDENT, I know literally hundreds of people who have taken both and the OVERWHELMING consensus is that USMLE is much more rigorous than COMLEX. Period.

You're like a middle schooler telling a a premed studying for the MCAT that they don't know anything about the MCAT.
Sure, I'll know more after taking the real test, but to talk about a test you MIGHT actually know something about..
After a couple practice MCATs I'm betting you we're pretty well prepared for what the test content/rigor would be, right? Same with me and USMLE and COMLEX.