The next time you hear someone trash Osteopathy, point them to this:

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
1) it is. N=2 means two people are wrong in this case.
2) again n=2 means two people are wrong in this case
3) if they're you're friends that explains why they're wrong
4) I doubt that looking at your post history. It seems like you cast an HUGE net and keep talking about rejections.
5) oops. You're correct on that one. My bad.

Point is. I have experience in prepping for these exams and you have ZERO experience with them.

You're basing everything off what a couple of your friends say. If we're going to just discount my own experience with practice tests and prep materials and only deal with word of mouth, then as a MEDICAL STUDENT, I know literally hundreds of people who have taken both and the OVERWHELMING consensus is that USMLE is much more rigorous than COMLEX. Period.

You're like a middle schooler telling a a premed studying for the MCAT that they don't know anything about the MCAT.
Sure, I'll know more after taking the real test, but to talk about a test you MIGHT actually know something about..
After a couple practice MCATs I'm betting you we're pretty well prepared for what the test content/rigor would be, right? Same with me and USMLE and COMLEX.

Good thing I dont need to convince you of my medical school admission status then, nor do I really care.. What you are not understanding is that its still your opinion because you are just one person. I used my two friends as personal examples. There have been many people on this forum alone that have said the tests are relatively similar after they took both.

If you go back through the posts, you'll notice I never actually made ANY judgement call on the difficulty of the two exams. I just said that you are making a bold claim that USMLE is that much harder than COMLEX when I've heard otherwise from others who are much further in their medical education. In the end, its true I dont know because I havent taken the exam. But like I said, its the word of some arrogant, condescending rager on SDN vs others whom I know and others on this forum. Who do you think I'll be more inclined to believe?

Anyways, I'm done talking about this. Its turned into a circle argument. Actually, you are probably the kind of relentless rager that continues to instigate dead arguments so I'll ignore you instead.

Not to mention this inane argument is derailing Goro's thread.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
1) it is. N=2 means two people are wrong in this case.
2) again n=2 means two people are wrong in this case
3) if they're you're friends that explains why they're wrong
4) I doubt that looking at your post history. It seems like you cast an HUGE net and keep talking about rejections.
5) oops. You're correct on that one. My bad.

Point is. I have experience in prepping for these exams and you have ZERO experience with them.

You're basing everything off what a couple of your friends say. If we're going to just discount my own experience with practice tests and prep materials and only deal with word of mouth, then as a MEDICAL STUDENT, I know literally hundreds of people who have taken both and the OVERWHELMING consensus is that USMLE is much more rigorous than COMLEX. Period.

You're like a middle schooler telling a a premed studying for the MCAT that they don't know anything about the MCAT.
Sure, I'll know more after taking the real test, but to talk about a test you MIGHT actually know something about..
After a couple practice MCATs I'm betting you we're pretty well prepared for what the test content/rigor would be, right? Same with me and USMLE and COMLEX.

Haven't taken both but from what i've heard and the books im looking at it seems the uslme questions are written better. They cover the same material, the difference being, the uslme covers more higher order questions. That being said while the USLME is usually regarded as harder they are also comparable exams.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Haven't taken both but from what i've heard and the books im looking at it seems the uslme questions are written better. They cover the same material, the difference being, the uslme covers more higher order questions. That being said while the USLME is usually regarded as harder there are also comparable exams.

Exactly.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
A private practice omm doc that only takes cash can make 300k per year.

Quick Question: Do pp's that take private insurance (but not fed insurance) fall under the realm of cash practice as well? Or do they basically just conform to fit the changes in medicare/medicaid that the gov institutes? I would guess they don't in order to give their elderly clients an actual reason to choose them over free gov care, in which case private insurance would be paying higher reimbursements, no?

Lol see ya I'm going DO.

...Just kidding, money isn't my main motivation.

....Seriously?

You weirdo. ;)

SDN is almost always wrong on issues like this - taking the black and white approach per usual. All this talk about MDs taking the competitive specialty spots away from DO students... It is highly underestimated just how competetive top DO students are, and I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see the once AOA ROADS students of the world matching at top ACGME residencies.

You say it's black and white, and then you offer a pure "white" opinion on the matter. That position does not compromise between the two points. You, sah, are a hypocriticisistism.

But seriously, where's the evidence that DOs are more competitive on average? Or even the evidence that the DOs going into AOA ROADS specialties are more competitive than the most competitive MDs (of which there'd be a greater amount just based on the ratio between the two populations)? And what reason would they have had to go AOA (in the competitive specialties OMM seems to have no real use) if they could have gotten into ACGME programs instead, which are commonly believed to have a superior capacity to train? Of course, I agree though, that we can't assume they are all making the choice 100% rationally and logically, and we should also concede it's possible some ROADS AOA programs are better in their capacity to train than some ACGME ones. But are these AOA grads so intelligent and hardworking and yet couldn't take the steps? I mean, yeah, there's already competitive DOs. And they're already getting into ACGME programs. Those people will be fine either way, though. Generally when we talk about what will happen, we're talking more on average. The average DO has lost her access to competitive programs if she's competitive but happens to not match ACGME. The competitive ACGME people are not only still fine, they now have access to that DOs programs.

Don't care though. So don't treat it like I'm some salty future DO. I frankly have no interest in ROADS. I'm just saying how things seem to be based on the available evidence. And I also think what's going to happen next is going to be fun/funny to watch while the former AOA board stands mouth agape at how they got totally played.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Oh. I'm not saying you can find a COMLEX number that corresponds to a USMLE number. I mean that would be like comparing paint by numbers to a Monet.

The COMLEX is not NEARLY as rigorous as USMLE and I don't care what reasons DOs give for not taking it, it's fear that's stopping them.

You're only talking about DOs that go to schools where they aren't required to take COMLEX, right?
 
You're only talking about DOs that go to schools where they aren't required to take COMLEX, right?

It's cool, let's grab Gandyy and open an OMM clinic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
This is the consensus of what my students who have taken both exams tell me. Having sat for COMLEX several times, and having access to retired NMBE items (the fancy word for "test questions), I what doc has written below.

USMLE tends to also like more medical genetics and biochem subjects, and have much longer stems (the fancy word for "the question") and they're rich in the info needed to answer the question correctly.

COMLEX is much fonder of, if not actually addicted to, the clinical vignette. USMLE is not afraid of asking for factoids, like "what's the 2nd most common cause of X?"





Haven't taken both but from what i've heard and the books im looking at it seems the uslme questions are written better. They cover the same material, the difference being, the uslme covers more higher order questions. That being said while the USLME is usually regarded as harder they are also comparable exams.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
But seriously, where's the evidence that DOs are more competitive on average? Or even the evidence that the DOs going into AOA ROADS specialties are more competitive than the most competitive MDs (of which there'd be a greater amount just based on the ratio between the two populations)? And what reason would they have had to go AOA (in the competitive specialties OMM seems to have no real use) if they could have gotten into ACGME programs instead, which are commonly believed to have a superior capacity to train? Of course, I agree though, that we can't assume they are all making the choice 100% rationally and logically, and we should also concede it's possible some ROADS AOA programs are better in their capacity to train than some ACGME ones. But are these AOA grads so intelligent and hardworking and yet couldn't take the steps? I mean, yeah, there's already competitive DOs. And they're already getting into ACGME programs. Those people will be fine either way, though. Generally when we talk about what will happen, we're talking more on average. The average DO has lost her access to competitive programs if she's competitive but happens to not match ACGME. The competitive ACGME people are not only still fine, they now have access to that DOs programs.

Don't care though. So don't treat it like I'm some salty future DO. I frankly have no interest in ROADS. I'm just saying how things seem to be based on the available evidence. And I also think what's going to happen next is going to be fun/funny to watch while the former AOA board stands mouth agape at how they got totally played.

Uh, no. Your logic falsely assumes only the most competetive DO's enter the ACGME match currently. There are many competetive DO's who would match ACGME, but choose the AOA match for various reasons.

I work for a PD in a highly competetive ACGME specialty who thinks the merger will basically eliminate the parody between MDs and DOs. This opens up the question whether there should be two degrees in the first place, but that is neither here nor there.
 
Last edited:
SDN is almost always wrong on issues like this - taking the black and white approach per usual. All this talk about MDs taking the competitive specialty spots away from DO students... It is highly underestimated just how competetive top DO students are, and I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see the once AOA ROADS students of the world matching at top ACGME residencies.
You are just an accepted presumably DO student...you have not the slightest idea about the process of residency matching.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You are just an accepted presumably DO student...you have not the slightest idea about the process of residency matching.

That never stops them from weighing in though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You are just an accepted presumably DO student...you have not the slightest idea about the process of residency matching.
I work directly under a PD at a large academic center - in a very competetive specialty. So... There's that.
 
I'm sure his words are the same as God himself and everyone must accept it as fact...

How dare you defame such an illustrious individual such as that. And this guy is his prophet!!
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I'm sure his words are the same as God himself and everyone must accept it as fact...
Ugh... The reality is I do have the slightest idea of the process of residency matching. I work for a guy who selects residents and fellows in a very competitive specialty after all.

Regardless, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
Uh, no. Your logic falsely assumes only the most competetive DO's enter the ACGME match currently.

I didn't say that. So I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

There are many competetive DO's who would match ACGME, but choose the AOA match for various reasons.

I don't know how many people this is. I'd wager it's not really "many" though. But I guess that depends on your definition of that word. Many for some can mean >10. Even still, I explicitly conceded in my response some AOA programs might be better than some ACGME programs in their capacity to train. Couple this with the fact that it's possible people aren't always choosing where they go 100% based on what will be best for their training and therefore future career with everything else that factors in to such a major decision, and you may have more individuals going to AOA programs than ACGME ones that have better training capabilities.

I work for a PD in a highly competetive ACGME specialty who thinks the merger will basically eliminate the parody between MDs and DOs.

How? Different schools, different licensing. Maybe the parody will go away in the future, but this has done nothing but give DOs a meaningless title as supposedly equivalent to MD students in the match, even though we all already knew that an appreciable proportion of DOs were as good as competitive MD students and therefore matched ACGME. We did not need ACGME to absorb AOA programs to notify us of that. Frankly this move looks like the AOA has an irrational obsession with how they are viewed by the public. But the whole point has been that they don't need to care how people view them, since they have legislative power behind them to ensure their legal ability to practice across the country.

Now if you tell me behind the scenes ACGME was threatening to lobby away their practice rights (somehow...) or had some other form of significant leverage on the AOA, then maybe this move would actually make some sense. But it looks more like the AOA leadership is made up of people who were just tired of not getting enough respect from their MD colleagues and wanted to do something to "show them." The problem is this made them look even more incompetent than their inferiority complex made them think they were.
 
You're only talking about DOs that go to schools where they aren't required to take COMLEX, right?

Um- this isn't a thing. All DOs have to take the COMLEX series to graduate/be licensed. Did you mean schools where they're not required to take USMLE?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Um- this isn't a thing. All DOs have to take the COMLEX series to graduate/be licensed. Did you mean schools where they're not required to take USMLE?

My bad then. It's just @Mjolner 's post seemed to be geared toward DOs that don't have to take the COMLEX, so I thought maybe there were a subset of students who don't.

The COMLEX is not NEARLY as rigorous as USMLE and I don't care what reasons DOs give for not taking it, it's fear that's stopping them.

The argument basically seems to go here: COMLEX is way easier than USMLE, so it's only fear that is stopping DOs from taking it.

This I thought implied some DOs don't take COMLEX.

So I'm guessing I just misunderstood the argument, then.
 
My bad then. It's just @Mjolner 's post seemed to be geared toward DOs that don't have to take the COMLEX, so I thought maybe there were a subset of students who don't.



The argument basically seems to go here: COMLEX is way easier than USMLE, so it's only fear that is stopping DOs from taking it.

This I thought implied some DOs don't take COMLEX.

So I'm guessing I just misunderstood the argument, then.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. My statement was that fear prevented DOs from taking USMLE.

COMLEX is required of ALL DOs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Why don't you guys get off your high horses. DO students don't seem to me, to be afraid of taking the Step1. Why would they take another exam if they don't have to. You are acting like allopathic schools have some insane advantage over osteopathic ones in terms of step prep, when in reality it comes down to the student and how they prepare. Sheeeeesh.


how do you stop getting alerts from threads?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Why don't you guys get off your high horses. DO students don't seem to me, to be afraid of taking the Step1. Why would they take another exam if they don't have to. You are acting like allopathic schools have some insane advantage over osteopathic ones in terms of step prep, when in reality it comes down to the student and how they prepare. Sheeeeesh.


how do you stop getting alerts from threads?

Get back to us next year when/if you get in and let us know if you still feel the same way.
 
SDN is almost always wrong on issues like this - taking the black and white approach per usual. All this talk about MDs taking the competitive specialty spots away from DO students... It is highly underestimated just how competetive top DO students are, and I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see the once AOA ROADS students of the world matching at top ACGME residencies.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but..... I think one of the points they were trying to get across is that the ACGME residencies may be required to consider DO applicants after the merger, but they will probably still be very biased towards MD applicants. They will able to choose from plenty of qualified MD candidates (as they have always done) without even entertaining the DO candidates, even if the program technically accepts them (I'm not sure if there is a stipulation that reserves spots for DOs, but I doubt it). Highly qualified DOs already do get into many ACGME programs after killing it on step 1 and doing whatever else they need to do to be considered. All this to say the top programs that don't accept DOs now probably won't accept them after the merger either.

It doesn't seem likely that current AOA programs will have the same bias (only towards DO candidates instead of MD, obviously) because now they will be able to pick from more qualified MD candidates as well; the AOA PDs may not be as concerned with MD/DO status post-merger and will likely just draw from those candidates most highly qualified. It's my understanding that, at the crux, the more competitive students will be accepted post-merger, and, sadly, more of those students will be MDs.

This is my understanding, and I could be off, but that's what I've gathered.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but..... I think one of the points they were trying to get across is that the ACGME residencies may be required to consider DO applicants after the merger, but they will probably still be very biased towards MD applicants. They will able to choose from plenty of qualified MD candidates (as they have always done) without even entertaining the DO candidates, even if the program technically accepts them (I'm not sure if there is a stipulation that reserves spots for DOs, but I doubt it). Highly qualified DOs already do get into many ACGME programs after killing it on step 1 and doing whatever else they need to do to be considered. All this to say the top programs that don't accept DOs now probably won't accept them after the merger either.

It doesn't seem likely that current AOA programs will have the same bias (only towards DO candidates instead of MD, obviously) because now they will be able to pick from more qualified MD candidates as well; the AOA PDs may not be as concerned with MD/DO status post-merger and will likely just draw from those candidates most highly qualified. It's my understanding that, at the crux, the more competitive students will be accepted post-merger, and, sadly, more of those students will be MDs.

This is my understanding, and I could be off, but that's what I've gathered.
Nice and accurate summary.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
MRW I watched this thread at the beginning and just now came back to it

tumblr_nna5xeJO681t9sksvo1_400.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but..... I think one of the points they were trying to get across is that the ACGME residencies may be required to consider DO applicants after the merger, but they will probably still be very biased towards MD applicants. They will able to choose from plenty of qualified MD candidates (as they have always done) without even entertaining the DO candidates, even if the program technically accepts them (I'm not sure if there is a stipulation that reserves spots for DOs, but I doubt it). Highly qualified DOs already do get into many ACGME programs after killing it on step 1 and doing whatever else they need to do to be considered. All this to say the top programs that don't accept DOs now probably won't accept them after the merger either.

It doesn't seem likely that current AOA programs will have the same bias (only towards DO candidates instead of MD, obviously) because now they will be able to pick from more qualified MD candidates as well; the AOA PDs may not be as concerned with MD/DO status post-merger and will likely just draw from those candidates most highly qualified. It's my understanding that, at the crux, the more competitive students will be accepted post-merger, and, sadly, more of those students will be MDs.

This is my understanding, and I could be off, but that's what I've gathered.

This is pessimistic, but most likely the realistic scenario. This is exactly why I firmly believe that borderline MD applicants get shafted the most when it comes to medical school admissions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
This is pessimistic, but most likely the realistic scenario. This is exactly why I firmly believe that borderline MD applicants get shafted the most when it comes to medical school admissions.


can confirm
 
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but..... I think one of the points they were trying to get across is that the ACGME residencies may be required to consider DO applicants after the merger, but they will probably still be very biased towards MD applicants. They will able to choose from plenty of qualified MD candidates (as they have always done) without even entertaining the DO candidates, even if the program technically accepts them (I'm not sure if there is a stipulation that reserves spots for DOs, but I doubt it). Highly qualified DOs already do get into many ACGME programs after killing it on step 1 and doing whatever else they need to do to be considered. All this to say the top programs that don't accept DOs now probably won't accept them after the merger either.

It doesn't seem likely that current AOA programs will have the same bias (only towards DO candidates instead of MD, obviously) because now they will be able to pick from more qualified MD candidates as well; the AOA PDs may not be as concerned with MD/DO status post-merger and will likely just draw from those candidates most highly qualified. It's my understanding that, at the crux, the more competitive students will be accepted post-merger, and, sadly, more of those students will be MDs.

This is my understanding, and I could be off, but that's what I've gathered.

Exactly. This is what I have been telling the optimists with fairy dust in their eyes for the entirety of this thread. It comes down to the fact that MDs are on average better candidates. Hence DOs did nothing but harm themselves by giving up exclusive residencies which were ensuring them a greater presence in competitive specialties.

They literally built up all these programs over decades and tore down all of that work with this one decision.

I would, however, come in with only point of contention: some former AOA programs may still keep a strong DO presence. De facto exclusivity may not even be out of the question, though I'm not sure what kind of quotas the merger will impose. i.e. all programs must have at least X% MDs and X% DOs. It seems like PDs are kind of feudal lords of their own domains, and I don't know if the bureaucratic oversight will even reach far enough to force them to change their practices, nor do I know if the ACGME even cares to micromanage in that fashion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This is pessimistic, but most likely the realistic scenario. This is exactly why I firmly believe that borderline MD applicants get shafted the most when it comes to medical school admissions.

No arguments there

Exactly. This is what I have been telling the optimists with fairy dust in their eyes for the entirety of this thread. It comes down to the fact that MDs are on average better candidates. Hence DOs did nothing but harm themselves by giving up exclusive residencies which were ensuring them a greater presence in competitive specialties.

They literally built up all these programs over decades and tore down all of that work with this one decision.

I would, however, come in with only point of contention: some former AOA programs may still keep a strong DO presence. De facto exclusivity may not even be out of the question, though I'm not sure what kind of quotas the merger will impose. i.e. all programs must have at least X% MDs and X% DOs. It seems like PDs are kind of feudal lords of their own domains, and I don't know if the bureaucratic oversight will even reach far enough to force them to change their practices, nor do I know if the ACGME even cares to micromanage in that fashion.

Apologies in advance for the ensuing diatribe.....

Unless there's some grand scheme at play that I'm not seeing, the people who decided this was a good idea for DOs have shot the entirety of osteopathic medicine in the foot. I feel like this decision had to have been forced upon the AOA by not only ACGME leadership but by others who see the issue of limited residency expansion. The overflow had to go somewhere. I see the conversation going something like this - bureaucrat making decisions, "Instead of creating enough new residency positions to keep up with the increasing number of graduates (who are needed given the physician shortage we're facing), let's just open all of the existing OGME spots to MD graduates too. They have plenty of spots." Other bureaucrat responds, "Brilliant! Who cares about the future osteopathic physicians when this option saves $$$$ and the effort of creating new residency spots?"

I haven't fact-checked this, but this quote is taken from a presentation by Norman Gevitz (http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/hpf/pdf/...intended Consequences of the ACGME Merger.pdf)

"Under our current system, unfilled OGME slots provide an excellent safety net for osteopathic students who do not secure slots in either the osteopathic or allopathic match. Last year, 500 US MD graduates did not find residency positions after their scramble. By contrast, all DO graduates who wanted a residency position found a residency position because we have a safety net."

I think we can all connect the dots. Hilariously, they don't even admit that this would benefit the residency shortage (probably because they realize this is a band-aid fix to the issue and don't want to bring any attention to it). In the FAQ about the merger (http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/Nasca-Community/FAQs.pdf) they list these as the benefits of single accreditation:
1. Establish and maintain consistent evaluation and accountability for the competency of resident physicians across all accredited graduate medical education (GME) programs.
2. Eliminate duplication in GME accreditation.
3. Achieve efficiencies and cost savings for institutions currently sponsoring “dually” or “parallel” accredited allopathic and osteopathic programs.
4. Ensure all residency and fellowship applicants are eligible to enter all accredited programs in the United States, and can transfer from one accredited program to another without repeating training, and without causing the sponsoring institutions to lose Medicare funding. (See Appendix 1: Eligibility for Residency and Fellowship for additional detailed information.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Unless there's some grand scheme at play that I'm not seeing, the people who decided this was a good idea for DOs have shot the entirety of osteopathic medicine in the foot.

Exactly.

I feel like this decision had to have been forced upon the AOA by not only ACGME leadership but by others who see the issue of limited residency expansion. The overflow had to go somewhere. I see the conversation going something like this - bureaucrat making decisions, "Instead of creating enough new residency positions to keep up with the increasing number of graduates (who are needed given the physician shortage we're facing), let's just open all of the existing OGME spots to MD graduates too. They have plenty of spots." Other bureaucrat responds, "Brilliant! Who cares about the future osteopathic physicians when this option saves $$$$ and the effort of creating new residency spots?"

I brought this up earlier in this thread too -- that is, that the ACGME may have had some form of leverage over the AOA and pressured them into this situation. No way to know for sure.

I mean the narrative sounds nice and possible, but where is the leverage coming from? What card did the ACGME have to play if the AOA gave them the collective middle finger? Or did they just count on the AOA to be so desperate for unification and recognition that they wouldn't even have to force them? If it's the latter, that's just what we were talking about already. So in any case I'd ask with this story: how would the ACGME have made the AOA follow them, if it happened that the AOA actually didn't want this?

"Under our current system, unfilled OGME slots provide an excellent safety net for osteopathic students who do not secure slots in either the osteopathic or allopathic match. Last year, 500 US MD graduates did not find residency positions after their scramble. By contrast, all DO graduates who wanted a residency position found a residency position because we have a safety net."

Funny he calls it the same thing I call it. But that's just what it is -- their safety net that's kept them matching for decades.

Let's just snip that real quick purely for the sake of ironically trying to make ourselves look good, only to make ourselves look totally incompetent in the end.

I think we can all connect the dots. Hilariously, they don't even admit that this would benefit the residency shortage (probably because they realize this is a band-aid fix to the issue and don't want to bring any attention to it).

Well...to be fair, it doesn't. It might fix the residency shortage for MDs. Not the residency shortage as a whole.

In the FAQ about the merger (http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/Nasca-Community/FAQs.pdf) they list these as the benefits of single accreditation:
1. Establish and maintain consistent evaluation and accountability for the competency of resident physicians across all accredited graduate medical education (GME) programs.
4. Ensure all residency and fellowship applicants are eligible to enter all accredited programs in the United States, and can transfer from one accredited program to another without repeating training, and without causing the sponsoring institutions to lose Medicare funding. (See Appendix 1: Eligibility for Residency and Fellowship for additional detailed information.)

Sensible.

2. Eliminate duplication in GME accreditation.

Hell yeah eliminating duplication! But oh that little thing called the licensing exam and the licensing process....shhhh just forget about that.

3. Achieve efficiencies and cost savings for institutions currently sponsoring “dually” or “parallel” accredited allopathic and osteopathic programs.

The intricacies of the residency system may be lost on me but....how will you be more efficient/cost-effective when you still have the same number of slots, just under different accreditation?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Exactly.



I brought this up earlier in this thread too -- that is, that the ACGME may have had some form of leverage over the AOA and pressured them into this situation. No way to know for sure.

I mean the narrative sounds nice and possible, but where is the leverage coming from? What card did the ACGME have to play if the AOA gave them the collective middle finger? Or did they just count on the AOA to be so desperate for unification and recognition that they wouldn't even have to force them? If it's the latter, that's just what we were talking about already. So in any case I'd ask with this story: how would the ACGME have made the AOA follow them, if it happened that the AOA actually didn't want this?



Funny he calls it the same thing I call it. But that's just what it is -- their safety net that's kept them matching for decades.

Let's just snip that real quick purely for the sake of ironically trying to make ourselves look good, only to make ourselves look totally incompetent in the end.



Well...to be fair, it doesn't. It might fix the residency shortage for MDs. Not the residency shortage as a whole.




Sensible.



Hell yeah eliminating duplication! But oh that little thing called the licensing exam and the licensing process....shhhh just forget about that.



The intricacies of the residency system may be lost on me but....how will you be more efficient/cost-effective when you still have the same number of slots, just under different accreditation?

Dude, I have the same questions and hangups that you do. I can't think of any leverage they may have had over the AOA, but it seems like the only plausible reason anyone would make such a huge oversight.

To address the bolded, if you take the ~500 MDs who don't match/scramble and all of a sudden they can, and do, match into AOA programs, that's 500 more future physicians every year (not accounting for those who match in the next cycle or whatever, obviously). Also, the basic premise I was getting at was that the "safety net" leaves empty spots every year. It stands to reason that the overflow of MD applicants will fill/force other DOs to fill those empty slots. It may be a marginal increase, but at least it's something.... I guess? Haha
 
Dude, I have the same questions and hangups that you do. I can't think of any leverage they may have had over the AOA, but it seems like the only plausible reason anyone would make such a huge oversight.

It'd be hilarious if the ACGME just got a ton of personal dirt on AOA members and blackmailed them into it. But real life isn't that messed up -- oh wait yes it is.

To address the bolded, if you take the ~500 MDs who don't match/scramble and all of a sudden they can, and do, match into AOA programs, that's 500 more future physicians every year (not accounting for those who match in the next cycle or whatever, obviously). Also, the basic premise I was getting at was that the "safety net" leaves empty spots every year. It stands to reason that the overflow of MD applicants will fill/force other DOs to fill those empty slots. It may be a marginal increase, but at least it's something.... I guess? Haha

Ah bleh. My bad. >900 go unmatched. (source: https://www.reddit.com/r/medicalsch...e_stop_complaining_that_there_are_not_enough/ , post by user neuromedskeptic)

This makes sense then. Idk why I was assuming they were all filled.
 
@docycle : There have been people who talked about how the ACGME used fellowship as a leverage in negotiation. In other words, if AOA don't listen, they'll basically block all DO graduates from getting fellowship (All fellowship are ACGME accredited) which means MANY specialties will be completely impossible for DOs (cardiology, GI, child psychiatry, etc.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
@docycle : There have been people who talked about how the ACGME used fellowship as a leverage in negotiation. In other words, if AOA don't listen, they'll basically block all DO graduates from getting fellowship (All fellowship are ACGME accredited) which means MANY specialties will be completely impossible for DOs (cardiology, GI, child psychiatry, etc.)

Yes, this was the case for why the AOA gave in. They knew standing their ground as a "seperate but equal" entity would absolutely backfire when current DO residents get the happy news that they are no longer eligible to apply for ACGME fellowships (which are essentially the gateway to get into academic medicine).

The current outlook of AOA programs is still questionable. I know there are still negations in regards to which programs will keep "osteopathic distinction" in order to allot protected programs for DO grads. However there are already many surgical subspecialty AOA programs that have decidednot to even appy for pre-accred. This will squeeze DO grads but the couneracting force here i the fact that DO grad will be implemented as internal applicants to the ERAS as supposed to their prior status as independent applicants. Who knows what that will do if it does anything at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Yes, this was the case for why the AOA gave in. They knew standing their ground as a "seperate but equal" entity would absolutely backfire when current DO residents get the happy news that they are no longer eligible to apply for ACGME fellowships (which are essentially the gateway to get into academic medicine).

The current outlook of AOA programs is still questionable. I know there are still negations in regards to which programs will keep "osteopathic distinction" in order to allot protected programs for DO grads. However there are already many surgical subspecialty AOA programs that have decidednot to even appy for pre-accred. This will squeeze DO grads but the couneracting force here i the fact that DO grad will be implemented as internal applicants to the ERAS as supposed to their prior status as independent applicants. Who knows what that will do if it does anything at all.
Thanks for the confirmation. I feel bad for DOs. The AOA is small and helpless with no leverage in any negotiation. In my personal view, it's unlikely the internal applicant label will do anything more than reduce the annual data report on matching by one column. PDs will still see whether they're DO or MD and where they get their training so the bias will still be there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
@docycle : There have been people who talked about how the ACGME used fellowship as a leverage in negotiation. In other words, if AOA don't listen, they'll basically block all DO graduates from getting fellowship (All fellowship are ACGME accredited) which means MANY specialties will be completely impossible for DOs (cardiology, GI, child psychiatry, etc.)

Ahhh I actually didn't know they had a monopoly on fellowships. Thanks for clearing this up.

But why didn't AOA do fellowships? Just a legislative oversight where the AOA was never given accreditation capabilities for such programs? Or did they have the capacity to do it but never really bothered?
 
Just thought I would point out that there are AOA fellowships. ACGME doesn't have a monopoly on them. There just aren't enough AOA fellowships for all the AOA residents who want them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Just thought I would point out that there are AOA fellowships. ACGME doesn't have a monopoly on them. There just aren't enough AOA fellowships for all the AOA residents who want them.
Sources? I also wonder if it's true, will AOA fellowship graduates will be BC/BE after finishing?
 
Is there a reason they wouldn't be?
From what I know, only graduates of ACGME accredited programs (residency and fellowships) can be BC/BE. Although I think DO graduates of osteopathic programs have their own organization (much smaller) for certification but not sure how that works. A lot of DO physicians are not board certified from what I read a while ago.
 
From what I know, only graduates of ACGME accredited programs (residency and fellowships) can be BC/BE. Although I think DO graduates of osteopathic programs have their own organization (much smaller) for certification but not sure how that works. A lot of DO physicians are not board certified from what I read a while ago.

Ok.... I usually dont say anything about some of your posts, but the bolded is ridiculous.
 
From what I know, only graduates of ACGME accredited programs (residency and fellowships) can be BC/BE.

Wait. I'm almost certain this is wrong. I wasn't sure about fellowships, as I've not done any significant research on them, but someone coming from an AOA residency not being BC/BE? That sounds strange.
 
Wait. I'm almost certain this is wrong. I wasn't sure about fellowships, as I've not done any significant research on them, but someone coming from an AOA residency not being BC/BE? That sounds strange.

There are two board speciality organizations: the AOA and abms. If you do an AOA residency/fellowship you are eligible for sitting for an AOA speciality board exam (http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...certification/Pages/aoa-specialty-boards.aspx). If you do an acgme residency you can be board certified by the abms or AOA (if you do some extra stuff).

Osteopathic physicians who completed an AOA residency may not be board certified by the abms, but they are board certified physicians nonetheless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
There are two board speciality organizations: the AOA and abms. If you do an AOA residency/fellowship you are eligible for sitting for an AOA speciality board (http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...certification/Pages/aoa-specialty-boards.aspx). If you do an acgme residency you can be board certified by the abms or AOA (if you do some extra stuff). I do not think you can boarded by both at the same time.

Osteopathic physicians who completed an AOA residency may not be board certified by the abms, but they are board certified physicians nonetheless.

Thank you for clarifying. Smexy was going a little overboard there
 
Thank you for clarifying. Smexy was going a little overboard there


I'm not sure how it works for those that did an AOA residency followed by an acgme fellowship. I don't know if these individuals are eligible for the abms or only the AOA board exam. This point is moot now since you won't be able to do this in the future, but maybe this scenario is what smexy was talking about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'm not sure how it works for those that did an AOA residency followed by an acgme fellowship. I don't know if these individuals are eligible for the abms or only the AOA board exam. This point is moot now since you won't be able to do this in the future, but maybe this scenario is what smexy was talking about.

Ah, I still would have a hard time believing that a physician, DO or MD, would not be vetted with a board examination every step of the way.
 
Sources? I also wonder if it's true, will AOA fellowship graduates will be BC/BE after finishing?

I won't provide sources because a simple google search will suffice for you I believe. Google something before you make claims about it...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Apologize for the confusion. I know little about osteopathic certification process although I did acknowledge that there was one in my post.
 
There are two board speciality organizations: the AOA and abms. If you do an AOA residency/fellowship you are eligible for sitting for an AOA speciality board exam (http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...certification/Pages/aoa-specialty-boards.aspx). If you do an acgme residency you can be board certified by the abms or AOA (if you do some extra stuff).

Osteopathic physicians who completed an AOA residency may not be board certified by the abms, but they are board certified physicians nonetheless.

So yeah. They're board certified. Just in a different way.
 
Top