The pros and cons of going the DO route over the caribbean route

[daelroy]

To answer the OP's question: here are the pros and cons of going the Carribean route

PROS
1. MD title- for whatever it's worth, you will be an MD when it's all said and done while DO's will forever be DO's.

2. Certain hospitals in New York City and the north east may favor Carribean grads particularly SGU grads over DO's

CONS

1. Red tape, red tape and more red tape. You will endure a ton of headache and bureacracy as an IMG. States like Texas and California will give you a very hard time.

2. Poor Living Conditions- Living in the Carribean is not living in the Bahamas or Hawaii. You are living in third world conditions. It's another burden you will have to deal with in addition to large volume of studying that all medical students are responsible for. It can be very frustrating to lose power for 3 days when you are cramming for finals. Basic comforts of life will be denied to you. It's not that you can't handle it but it's one more nuisance you have to deal with in addition to all the studying.

3. Unstructured Clinical Rotations - unlike US grads, you will be traveling during your clincial rotation period. One month here; one month there. After a while, it can be expensive as hell. And I hope you like New York or Michigan because that's where you will be doing your rotations during 3rd year for the most part. Unlike U.S. grads, you will have very little say where you do your rotations particularly third year. And the best rotation sites are usually reserved for the best students of the school. And these hospitals you rotate at aren't exactly in the nicest areas or have the best reputations to put it politely.

4. You are the lowest person on the totem in most PD's eyes. The hierarchy goes MD - DO - FMG/IMG. There are exceptions, particularly on the east coast but in the rest of the country particularly the west coast, you will be seen as third tier. DO's not only have access to their own osteopathic residencies, they have access to the allopathic ones as well. And only DO's can apply for their osteopathic versions so it's much easier specializing as DO then as foreign MD.

5. You must have higher USMLE scores than US grads to be competitive- as an IMG, it's practically a REQUIREMENT that you have better than average board scores to be competitive. That is why the foreign graduates spend 6 months at Kaplan prepping for Step I because they absolutely must have higher board scores than their U.S. counterparts to be competitive.

6. COST - for all the traveling you will do in addition to the quarterly tuition rates etc, the cost of attending a foreign medical school can be astronomical


BOTTOMLINE: If you deal with all of these incoveniences, then do the Carribean route because you will be an MD in the end.

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[Adapt]

I would just like to add that if you go to this link...

http://directory.aoa-net.org/cfm/PublicSearch.cfm

...and search for the number of DOs in CA, you get 2,058. California has one of the largest concentrations of DOs. The reason is of course because each year COMP and TUCOM spit out about 400 DO graduates and by looking at their matchlists, most grads do their residency in CA and practice in CA. Not only that but looking at where those DOs went to school, many went to out of state DO schools and came back to CA to practice.

Thus, I expect that number to increase a lot each year. What this says is that clearly DOs will have much power and advantages at least in CA and other states where the DO concentration is a lot.

 

[DrRichardKimble]

Heme-onc didn't you have to get some letters of recommendation to transfer to SGU? I can't help but imagine how awkward that would be (asking osteopathic professors to write recommendations for you to go to an allopathic school).

What was so bad about Nova that you tried to transfer to Western Osteopathic and SGU? Also if it was the MD you wanted, why SGU? There are a good 20 US allopathic, LCME accredited schools that accept osteopathic transfers.

And lastly, did you have to do pre-clinicals (basic sciences) over or did you go straight into clinicals as a 3rd year? Just curious...no knock on SGU as my brother is a student there, but I'm a little confused...

curiously, what are the 20 LCME schools that accept osteopathic transfers? i've never heard of anyone doing this and i had no idea this was even possible, although in reality it is probably the closest thing to being impossible.

 

[tkim]

curiously, what are the 20 LCME schools that accept osteopathic transfers? i've never heard of anyone doing this and i had no idea this was even possible, although in reality it is probably the closest thing to being impossible.

GW Med is the only school I've heard of that allows this:

http://www.gwumc.edu/edu/admis/html/admissions/transfer.html

"Students eligible to apply to our second or third-year classes are those from U.S. or Canadian schools of medicine, those from foreign medical schools listed by the World Health Organization (WHO), and those enrolled in osteopathic schools. Students are eligible to apply if they meet our specific curriculum requirements. All Students from foreign medical schools and osteopathic schools must provide a passing USMLE Step 1 score (we cannot review students from these schools with only one-year of medical school coursework)."

 

[daelroy]

curiously, what are the 20 LCME schools that accept osteopathic transfers? i've never heard of anyone doing this and i had no idea this was even possible, although in reality it is probably the closest thing to being impossible.

Not really considering that some schools like the University of Miami accept FMG transfers. So if some schools take FMG's then it shouldn't be a shock to anyone the MD schools take DO's. 20 sounds a little low to me. I do know that it's not a straight transfer meaning a DO can't start rotations upon transferring. They have to repeat the second year. It's not impossible but it is difficult.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

curiously, what are the 20 LCME schools that accept osteopathic transfers? i've never heard of anyone doing this and i had no idea this was even possible, although in reality it is probably the closest thing to being impossible.

Are you THE Dr. Richard Kimble?! Fugitive--good medically related movie!

No seriously though, I'm not making this up. Here's the schools that have a *policy* of accepting osteopathic students (I don't know which ones have actually accepted osteopathic students in *practice*):

University of South Alabama, Loma Linda, Yale, George Washington, Finch/Rosalind Franklin/CMS, U of illinois, Southern Illinois, LSU, Wayne State, East Carolina, U Nebraska, UMDNJ-Robert Wood, U New Mexico, U @ Buffalo, SUNY Upstate, Wright State, Northeastern, Temple, MCP Hahnemann/Drexel, U Central Caribe.

For example:
http://services.aamc.org/tsp_reports/report.cfm?inst_id=172
http://services.aamc.org/tsp_reports/report.cfm?inst_id=180
http://services.aamc.org/tsp_reports/report.cfm?inst_id=137
http://www.neoucom.edu/Students/ADMI/AdminTransferFrameset.htm

But don't get your hopes up because many of them have very specific policies, e.g. in-state residency, extreme circumstances, spouse working at the med school, you need to move closer to home because your mother is dying from lung cancer or your dad is terminally ill, etc. I don't even think you could get away with the old, I-may-want-to-practice-in-another-country-that-doesn't-allow-DOs-to-practice-when-I-get-older excuse. Remember US med schools pay what...>$1,000,000 for each med student over four years. Needless to say, they want those students practicing in the United States, not some other country.

Also, it seems like an insult to the osteopathic school that saw you as a whole person and gave you the opportunity to be a physician (especially when US allopathic schools may not have given you the light of day). And yes, I know that some people are accepted to osteopathic schools because they wanted to do osteopathic medicine. But I would think that osteopathic students who want to transfer to allopathic programs are doing it for the MD. I can't seem to make sense of it...

"I was rejected at MD schools, but accepted at DO schools. DO schools gave me a chance to pursue my dream and saw me as a person. MD schools didn't give me the light of day. But now that my DO school has allowed me to show that I'm an excellent student with an excellent gpa and excellent board scores, I'm gonna try to transfer to an allopathic school even though they didn't think I was good enough and didn't see me as a person. I can't wait to switch my 'O' for an 'M' and reverse the consonants! **DROOL**" I'm trying to imagine the rationale. It's not worth it for the prestigious letters or the stigma excuse and I can't help but think it would be a blatant insult to the osteopathic school. If you want the MD, can't get into a US allopathic school, or don't want to try for a postbacc/masters program, go to SGU, Ross, or AUC (maybe SABA depending on where you want to practice) or England/Ireland. That's what my brother did, and that's fine and dandy. There is a reason to try and transfer from Carib to US (residency advantage, non-FMG status, living conditions if transferring as a 2nd year), but the DO transfer thing really kind of bugs me.

Oh and as a tangent, I thought this was interesting. Some schools accept dental and oral/maxillofacial students as transfers. But I woudn't go into dental or oral/maxillofacial with the intent to transfer either. Here's Harvard's policy:

"Admissions with advanced standing is limited to students who are completing the Medical Engineering Medical Physics program at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology or are in the oral and maxillofacial surgery postgraduate program at Massachusetts General Hospital."

So here's my plan. I'm going to complete the Medical Engineering Medical Physics program at MIT with a 4.0 and transfer with advanced standing as a third-year student at Harvard Medical School. I may not even get accepted and I might waste all my time completing the Medical Engineering Medical Physics program at MIT, but if I don't get into Harvard on the first try, that's what I'll do. I mean...I'll get to say that I graduated from Harvard Medical School when I'm like 70 years old! I might even have to start all over as a first year medical student at another less prestigious medical school, but that's a risk I'm willing to take to have the Harvard Medical School diploma!!!

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Not really considering that some schools like the University of Miami accept FMG transfers. So if some schools take FMG's then it shouldn't be a shock to anyone the MD schools take DO's. 20 sounds a little low to me. I do know that it's not a straight transfer meaning a DO can't start rotations upon transferring. They have to repeat the second year. It's not impossible but it is difficult.

Got some good posts up there daelroy

Correct me if I'm wrong...I know U of Miami *used to* take several each year from SGU, but I think they no longer accept foreign medical students as transfers (but you are right that some US allopathic schools do accept foreign transfers).

 

[daelroy]

Got some good posts up there daelroy

Correct me if I'm wrong...I know U of Miami *used to* take several each year from SGU, but I think they no longer accept foreign medical students as transfers (but you are right that some US allopathic schools do accept foreign transfers).

Hey Phil

My compliments.... Yeah, I didn't know Miami's current policy. I knew they used to take FMG's into their program that were in good standing.

 

[Shinken]

There are some really good posts in this thread. I'm very glad this thread hasn't degenerated into yet another MD vs DO vs FMG thread.

There's a thread in the Osteopathic forum about an OB-GYN residency that's combining its allopathic and osteopathic program into one. You might find it interesting.

Also, it's difficult to generalize on this issue. Should you get a US DO or a Caribbean MD? It depends on the individual situation. I can see how if you're a young person (21 or so), just out of college and have your heart set on an MD and a competitive specialty like ortho surgery it would be a definite setback to go the DO route, both emotionally and professionally.

For someone "old" like myself (mid-30's), married and with children, the opportunity to become a physician without leaving the country is an awesome opportunity. I did consider Caribbean schools simply because I didn't know if I would get into med school in the US. Now I'll be attending an osteopathic school and becoming a doctor without having to leave the country (without all the expense and headaches that leaving entails, especially with a school-aged child). Of course, I don't intend to apply to pediatric neurosurgery programs at Hopkins or Harvard. I'll simply be a primary care physician, most likely an internist. For my plans, a DO degree is perfect. For someone else, a DO degree might not be adequate. It's up to the individual and his situation. I do think that getting an MD simply because of the letters is silly, especially as time goes by and the two degrees in the US are becoming more and more blurred, both in prestige and post-graduate training opportunities.

 

[daelroy]

It depends on the individual situation. I can see how if you're a young person (21 or so), just out of college and have your heart set on an MD and a competitive specialty like ortho surgery it would be a definite setback to go the DO route, both emotionally and professionally.

For someone "old" like myself (mid-30's), married and with children, the opportunity to become a physician without leaving the country is an awesome opportunity. I did consider Caribbean schools simply because I didn't know if I would get into med school in the US. Now I'll be attending an osteopathic school and becoming a doctor without having to leave the country (without all the expense and headaches that leaving entails, especially with a school-aged child). Of course, I don't intend to apply to pediatric neurosurgery programs at Hopkins or Harvard. I'll simply be a primary care physician, most likely an internist. For my plans, a DO degree is perfect. For someone else, a DO degree might not be adequate. It's up to the individual and his situation. I do think that getting an MD simply because of the letters is silly, especially as time goes by and the two degrees in the US are becoming more and more blurred, both in prestige and post-graduate training opportunities.

Excellent post and I agree. If you are a young person or someone who doesn't plan on having a family for a long time and you really want to do ENT, neurosurgery, dermatology, opthalmology, plastic surgery, urology and other extremely competitive specialized fields, you should reapply to an MD school until you get into one.

But if you have some hope of specializing and you can't get into an MD school a DO will be much better than a foreign MD in helping you specialize...that's for sure.

I'm attending DO school and even I get into heavy arguments with fellow DO's who imply that as a DO, you will have an equal chance to specialize in neurosurgery, plastic surgery, dermatology, opthalmology, ENT, and urology as an MD. The truth is that even the best DO student will have a tougher time than their allopathic counterpart in entering these specialties.

But don't let me mislead you because not all specialties are DO unfriendly. This doesn't apply to all specialties but just the ones listed above. Emergency medicine, anesthesiology, general surgery, OB/GYN, and PM&R are routinely matched by DO's. Orthopedic surgery and Radiology are somewhere in between depending upon what area of the country you are in.


So if you want to enter neurosurgery, platic surgery dermatology, opthalmology, ENT, and urology, it's better to wait and reapply as an MD. Yes, there are osteopathic versions of these but they are few and far between. For example, there are only 2 DO plastics fellowships in the entire US. Optho and Neuro only have a handfull of residencies too so it's not like you have an equal chance as an MD that have more number of residencies in these fields.

 

[lealf-ye]

I am not sure if anyone is "convinced" by overwhelmingly repeated messages to go to DO school instead of attending a Carib med school. I will still choose carib school with no hesitation.

 

[Shinken]

Well, good for you lealf-ye.

We're not trying to "convince" anyone. Just sharing our experiences and opinions. It's good that you know what you want. It's the people that aren't sure that usually agonize over their choices. After all, it's a very important (and expensive) life decision.

 

[lealf-ye]

I am not sure how your experieces at Carib med school are like and your first-hand experience with their education, but I am tired of seeing DO vs MD and mine-is-better-than-yours type of thread.

 

[daelroy]

I am not sure if anyone is "convinced" by overwhelmingly repeated messages to go to DO school instead of attending a Carib med school. I will still choose carib school with no hesitation.

There are reasons to attend a Carribean school and there are reasons why one should attend a DO school. What we are doing is clearing up misinformation. One myth that is propagated or implied by some IMG's on here is the notion that DO's and IMG's are viewed the same in most PD's eyes which is FALSE. So if one is going to Carribean school based on that information then they are basing their decision on false information. Maybe for you, it doesn't matter if that information rings true but for others, many will research the DO vs. Carribean option now that they know more about it.

 

[lealf-ye]

The problem is that none of you have ever go through both route and can tell the difference between the two options. You are just a student like me pass a myth learned somewhere else here.

 

[honestpredent]

The problem is that none of you have ever go through both route and can tell the difference between the two options. You are just a student like me pass a myth learned somewhere else here.

A lot of us, both IMG and DO's have heavily researched both options and spoken to many people in person about these issues. I know several IMG's who can admit they went to the Carribbean for the MD title and nothing more. To them, the MD was worth the hassle. Most DO's can accept this rationale. The problem occurs when some IMG's for the sake of argument start contradicting long established facts such as IMG's are perceived at the same level as DO's by most PD's. When did this happen? LOL The next thing you know you will hear someone start saying that IMG's face no discrimination upon matching in the most competitive specialties. It always happens. Unfortunately, there are students that rely on this forum to make decisions and the last thing they need to read is misinformation posted by an IMG who simply wants to save face and will make up facts to accomplish that.

I will admit DO's do the same thing. I see it all the time when DO's imply that they have an equal chance at specializing in the most competitive fields of medicine as their allopathic counterparts. Sorry, that's not true either.

 

[lealf-ye]

I will admit DO's do the same thing. I see it all the time when DO's imply that they have an equal chance at specializing in the most competitive fields of medicine as their allopathic counterparts. Sorry, that's not true either.

Are you are a pre-dent student looking into MD/DO now?

 

[drusso]

I think that there are less administrative hassles going DO compared to the Caribbean. I have a friend who graduated from a caribbean medical school and did her residency in Chicago. She couldn't moonlight (while the DO's in her program could), had difficulties getting paperwork processed for licensure, etc. It always seems like she's facing some kind of hassle or the other (trying to get her student affairs office to notarize things, etc).

 

[coolness]

Both pathways have challenges of their own.

DO pathway:
- for certain residencies and competitive specialties, may need to take USMLE
- public's lack of knowlege may result in frequent inquiries of what a DO is

Carribean pathway:
- education is in an environment that is drastically different from the U.S.
- may be at a disadvantage on obtaining certain residencies and competitive specialities

Regardless of these challenges, they are not insurmountable. In my opinion, I respect all licensed physicians, whether they are MDs (US or abroad) or DOs.

 

[aucgrad110]

OMG. you have to love the urinating contests. i for one attended a DO school for 2/3 the first semester then left for family reasons by a leave of absense. max leave that i could take was a year but i needed a longer time.

please dont be arrogant like some on the DO forum and accuse me of failing out. an immediate family member was diagnosed with cancer while in school. her condition worsened over the year and i had to give my spot up for another person. since then she passed away and i continued persuing my dream. however, the DO school told me that i would have to reapply for the next year. i couldnt wait around doing nothing for a year because i only had a BS biology which will not get you far in florida. i chose to go to AUC. mainly because of the island. i knew that the big three (SGU, ROSS, AUC) were allowed to practice in all 50 states.

its a shame that i had to explain in detail my history because some DO fanatics (no none of you who are postin on this thread) but others try to distort my credibility.

i was a unique situation and CAN relate to both, at least the 1 st semster. I felt that the education at AUC was BETTER for the couses the first semester (only ones i can compare to in the DO since i left early).

the DO program had an entering class of 209 where AUC had 80. anatomy was the best gift that AUC gave me. 25 cadavers and lab every day. in the DO school they had too many students so they broke up the dissection into group A and B. you only get to dissect once a week with a mixer the other day that group B dissects. the mixer is only an hour long. im sorry..... but that is insufficient time for the lab. i didnt know any better at the time. now, all the other days were filled up with histo lab, OMM lab, clinical practicum lab, and preceptorship. anatomy is an integral part of the medical education and shouldnt be brushed off. im not gonna go into more detail about the teaching methods in other classes because im just gonna be called a liar anyway.

im writing this for future students. now i dont want to mock all DO schools but the one that i was at did not impress me.

i know FMG's have a tough time with competitve residencies. however, if you are like me and want primary care, it will not make a difference. to those who freak out of the DO thing, go to the carib if you want primary care. the education is very good. remeber to stick to the big 3. consider island life and compare the three islands. st maarten was perfect for me. i did the 20 months there and did ALL of my clinicals at providence hospital. no moving around. i did 3 elective in florida. that was it. im in internal medicine residency now. im content with my decision. i didnt need the extra leverage as being a DO because it was ALWAYS internal medicine for me. i would have rather stayed in the DO school because of being in the states, but im happy where i am now. if i would have went back to DO, i would of been still in clinicals now.

plus i get an MD after my name. ok..... i didnt mind the DO thing, but i still was planning on hiding it. i also still got to practice on HARVEY at AUC because they have one just like the DO school.

in short, if you dont mind the 20 month lifestyle, want an MD instead of a DO and dont want super hard residencies, then go carib. the education is great.

but PLEASE.............. there are sham schools out there. DO YOUR RESEARCH INTO EACH ONE. this means look at grads, match profile and USMLE scores. the passing percentage may not be like the states. remember, the schools down in the carib are for profit. they dont mind taking your money if you are unqualified. it is up to you to actually study. the education is good but unfit students can have problems on the USMLE. now we are talking about the ones that didnt get accepted to DO schools either. they need to REALLY look at their grades and MCATs and make a realistic judgment. med school is hard wherever you go. the whole process of the application is to weed out the people who cant hack it. im talking about the people with 2.5 GPA and 18 MCAT. ive seen them get accepted and not finish. be TRUE to yourself.

i hope this was helpful.
US MD, DO, FMG MD ==== we are all working along side eachother.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

i hope this was helpful.
US MD, DO, FMG MD ==== we are all working along side eachother.

Sorry I didn't read your entire post, maybe I'll get around to it, but this last quote is priceless

 

[azcomdiddy]

I know several IMG's and all of them were ultimately happy with their choice of going to the Carribean. They all admitted that they endured hard times but in the end, they were all happy with their choice. Some of these students admitted they would have attended a DO school had they gotten in, but they never stated that they were unhappy with going overseas. Others admitted that they would never do DO because they didn't want to be stuck with the label.

As a DO, I can admit that the Carib is a better choice in some instances.

Choose the Carribean over the DO route if you meet ALL of these stipulations.

1. You are purusing a noncompetitive field such as family practice, psychiatry, general internal medicine or general pediatrics.

2. You are not that fussy about location. You will have very little say as to where you will do your rotations and residency as an IMG

3. You really want the MD label and you don't want to have to deal with explaining what a DO is.

Choose DO over the Carribean if you meet all of these stipulations

1. You want a decent chance at specializing or acquiring a competitive specialty. As a DO, you will have access to DO specialized fields like DO derm or DO ENT for example. Also, in most program directors eyes, DO is given slightly more consideration than FMG's. There are exceptions as some have noted but most PD's will tell you that DO's are given more consideration.

2. You are very picky about location. If you want to stay in a particular city or do your residency at home etc., you will have more say in this as a DO than a IMG.

3. You would prefer to attend medical school in the U.S. versus living in some foreign country for 2 years.


Lastly, I should mention something very important. U.S. medical schools including DO schools do everything they can to make sure their students pass their classes. It is very difficult to fail at at U.S. medical school whether that is an M.D. or a D.O. school. U.S. medical schools provide a "country club" like atmosphere when compared to the Carib counterparts. U.S. schools offer better facilities, teaching, notes, note taking services, tutoring, forgiving policies etc. Carib schools don't baby you as much as U.S. medical schools. They will not be as lenient or treat you with kid gloves if you are failing. All of my IMG friends stated this fact on more than one occassion. It really is a sink or swim environment overseas. Like they said, it may be easy to get into a Carib school but it's much harder to stay in a Carib school. If you aren't the most self-disciplined person and don't deal well with discomfort, it may be worth reapplying to a U.S. medical school because you are on your own overseas.

But for many hard-working, focused and self disciplined individuals, the Carib was an excellent choice. They earned their MD and will practice in the United States as a physician.

 

[Leukocyte]

Lastly, I should mention something very important. U.S. medical schools including DO schools do everything they can to make sure their students pass their classes. It is very difficult to fail at at U.S. medical school whether that is an M.D. or a D.O. school. U.S. medical schools provide a "country club" like atmosphere when compared to the Carib counterparts. U.S. schools offer better facilities, teaching, notes, note taking services, tutoring, forgiving policies etc. Carib schools don't baby you as much as U.S. medical schools. They will not be as lenient or treat you with kid gloves if you are failing. All of my IMG friends stated this fact on more than one occassion. It really is a sink or swim environment overseas. Like they said, it may be easy to get into a Carib school but it's much harder to stay in a Carib school. If you aren't the most self-disciplined person and don't deal well with discomfort, it may be worth reapplying to a U.S. medical school because you are on your own overseas.

I really have to agree with this. Great post.

 

[Skip Intro]

This was an interesting topic that came up in a thread that illustrates some additional misinformation in this (often senseless and completely pointless) argument.

Start reading here:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=1801792#post1801792

In my opinion, make your choice confidently and realistically based on what you ultimately want to do with your life, not because of fear, misinformation, or what someone else says. There's a lot of bad information out there.

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

You still have to live in third world conditions and bear all the red tape of doing rotations in the U.S.

What red tape? I sent my Step 1 score to the NY State DOE, along with a check for $20 and a $0.37 stamp, and got a two-year approval to do all my clinicals in New York. It took me all of 5 minutes to complete the form and send it in.

Another interesting fact is that Ross not SGU has the best clinical rotation setup of all the Carribean schools because of their volume and past history with hospitals in New York and the East coast. That's the only reason why Ross still manages to attract candidates; their clinicals.

Well, again, I think as an outsider you're slightly misinformed. Ross' clinical sites, while more numerous than SGU and certainly in a far-wider number of states, are still not as desired as SGU's sites. They clearly have much better quality clinical rotations, and this in no small measure weighs heavily in their graduates fairing better in the Match.

If you're going to the Caribbean, right now I'd say it goes:

SGU > Ross > AUC > Saba > the rest

-Skip

 

[daelroy]

What red tape? I sent my Step 1 score to the NY State DOE, along with a check for $20 and a $0.37 stamp, and got a two-year approval to do all my clinicals in New York. It took me all of 5 minutes to complete the form and send it in.

Yeah, but what about rotating in other states like Texas, California, Arizona, Washington, Colorado, Oregon? This is why you shouldn't go the Caribbean. You have no flexibility. D.O.'s can rotate anywhere. If I want to match in Seattle, I can do my third and fourth year rotations there without any trouble. When it comes time to the match, I will have no problem matching in Seattle while a Carib grad will have probably have done his rotations in New York and thus lack the ability to network in hospitals there. This is just one example. Caribbean students have no say where they go. You better like New York if you go to the Caribbean because that's where you will be.

 

[Skip Intro]

Yeah, but what about rotating in other states like Texas, California, Arizona, Washington, Colorado, Oregon? This is why you shouldn't go the Caribbean. You have no flexibility. D.O.'s can rotate anywhere. If I want to match in Seattle, I can do my third and fourth year rotations there without any trouble. When it comes time to the match, I will have no problem matching in Seattle while a Carib grad will have probably have done his rotations in New York and thus lack the ability to network in hospitals there. This is just one example. Caribbean students have no say where they go. You better like New York if you go to the Caribbean because that's where you will be.

This is patently false. We can do visiting/away rotations just like any other student. It's up to the hospital, not the state. Yes, even in Texas.

Contrary to many incorrect opinions, Ross and SGU grads can still get a license in all fifty states - even Texas.

-Skip

 

[azcomdiddy]

This is patently false. We can do visiting/away rotations just like any other student. It's up to the hospital, not the state. Yes, even in Texas.

Contrary to many incorrect opinions, Ross and SGU grads can still get a license in all fifty states - even Texas.

-Skip

You are are right and wrong. It is up to the hospitals but what many Caribbean students find is that many U.S. hospitals particularly in unfriendly IMG states like Texas and states in the west will not allow them to rotate during third year or do core rotations there. IMG's have no problem securing electives. This is why a lot of AUC students go to England to do their rotations so they don't have to travel each month to do rotations in the states. 4th year students can pretty much go wherever but DO students have much more flexibility as to where they can rotate third year. Caribbean students have no flexibility when it comes to doing core rotations. A Ross or SGU student can't just start their third year rotations wherever they want in the U.S..

 

[Skip Intro]

You are are right and wrong. It is up to the hospitals but what many Caribbean students find is that many U.S. hospitals particularly in unfriendly IMG states like Texas and states in the west will not allow them to rotate during third year. 4th year students can pretty much go wherever but DO students have much more flexibility as to where they can rotate third year.

I don't know this to be absolutely correct, but it's probably generally correct and I can't (and won't) dispute it either. However, Caribbean schools (just like DO schools) have hospital affiliations in many states that offer core clinicals in . I seriously doubt that a DO student can go rotate through a core IM rotation at the hospital of his/her choosing anywhere in the U.S. (i.e., a PCOM student decides to do an IM core at Johns Hopkins and is welcomed with open arms). Most U.S. medical schools reserve enough third-year core rotation spots for their students only.

Fourth year electives, as you point out, is a different story. And, I myself have done (and will do) visiting electives at U.S. medical schools during this my fourth year.

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[azcomdiddy]

I don't know this to be absolutely correct, but it's probably generally correct and I can't (and won't) dispute it either. However, Caribbean schools (just like DO schools) have hospital affiliations in many states that offer core clinicals in . I seriously doubt that a DO student can go rotate through a core IM rotation at the hospital of his/her choosing anywhere in the U.S. (i.e., a PCOM student decides to do an IM core at Johns Hopkins and is welcomed with open arms). Most U.S. medical schools reserve enough third-year core rotation spots for their students only.

Fourth year electives, as you point out, is a different story. And, I myself have done (and will do) visiting electives at U.S. medical schools during this my fourth year.

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You are misinformed. DO students pretty much can rotated wherever they want to go with few exceptions. Certain hospitals will deny them opportunities but it isn't anywhere to the same extent that a Carribbean grad faces. Carib students are pretty much banned from doing core rotations in certain states/cities because they won't find a hospital in that area that will take them during their cores. With D.O.'s, it's usually just a matter of finding a hospital in the city that you desire. I will be doing my cores at an academic teaching hospital (M.D.) that is not affiliated with my school in any way. Check out the thread below

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=135590&highlight=rotations

 

[Skip Intro]

You are misinformed.

Did you actually read my post before you posted this? Misinformed about what specifically? If you are going to level that kind of accusation, please be specific as to what it's in reference to.

At Ross, students can set-up all of their rotations on their own if they want, and many hospitals and other sponsors have let them do it - exactly as you have done for one of your rotations. The University has no problem with this and it has always been their policy. However, personally I would say that it is not advisable because it (1) it takes a lot of extra time and effort, (2) you cannot be completely certain that you will then go on to subsequently get credit from every licensing boards for that rotation (especially if they do not have an affiliated ACGME program there), and (3) their may be certain restrictions in certain states (e.g., Pennsylvania), however most restrictions are hospital/institution imposed.

Besides, if you re-read my post (before choosing to call me "misinformed" and then posting a discussion from this forum between other clearly misinformed participants as evidence), you'll see that I stated that I am not disputing the central point that was being made. However, to then characterize DO school attendees as essentially having comparatively "free rein" to go wherever they want to do their core clinical rotations is far more misleading.

The fact is that DO schools have official affiliations just like Caribbean schools do, and this is predominately where their students train. If you want to argue who's are better... well, okay, I'm not going to get into a point-by-point dissection with you or anyone else. But, the fact is that I have done core rotations at several different hospitals side-by-side with DO students from PCOM, NYCOM, LECOM and Touro. Trust me, if they'd had this plethora of choices as you suggest, they likely would not have choosen to rotate at some of these places.

In the meantime, if we're going to start posting forum threads as sources of "credible" and "reliable" information on this topic, here's a much better one: http://www.valuemd.com/viewtopic.php?t=22825

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[azcomdiddy]

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Remember that many DO schools have their own teaching hospitals located in the same city. And the ones that don't have many affiliates in that city (Unfortunately AZCOM doesn't but that's due a feud we have with U of Arizona)I I don't know of any Caribbean school that has its own teaching hospital. Also, many hospitals have their own discriminatory policies many of which will not allow an IMG to rotate their during a core rotation while allowing D.O.'s to do so.

Let's get back to the point of this discussion. We were arguing that D.O.'s have greater flexibility in regards to rotating in the United States. You would disagree with that statement? Are you saying Ross students have as much flexibility as any D.O. student in regards to where he or she can rotate in the U.S. because if you believe this then you are heavily misinformed.

 

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You would disagree with that statement? Are you saying Ross students have as much flexibility as any D.O. student in regards to where he or she can rotate in the U.S.

If you re-read again carefully, I already conceded that point - and I don't really know why you are now trying to move the target. You've successfully created a straw man and a red herring at the same time.

The bigger issue, and what you are still missing, is the fact that the vast majority of training is done in affiliated hospitals, and there is not "carte blanche" flexibility of any U.S. student, be they D.O. or M.D., to go pretty much wherever they want to do their cores as you have suggested. Remember, this is what we've been talking about. Of course, certain hospitals have policies about visiting students for electives, and often there is more flexibility afforded to U.S. students. But, even with a stated policy of, for instance, not accepting Caribbean students or whatever, I've still been able to circumvent this and do a rotation in one particular hospital. (But, I'll be the first to admit that this often has more to do with who you know, and not necessarily where you come from.)

And, as Leukocyte pointed out, both Ross and SGU have affiliated teaching hospitals in their respective countries. In fact, SGU also has hospitals in St. Vincent's, a neighboring island. Students from both schools, if they chose to do so, could complete their entire degree in the Caribbean, graduate, and then come to the U.S., after receiving their degree, ECFMG certificate, and passing the boards, to start a residency. Personally, I do not (and cannot) see the reality of too many students going for this option unless they have serious visa or other immigration issues. Rotating in the U.S. substantially improves your chances of securing a more competitive residency. (Not that your bringing up this point was relevant at all to this discussion anyway.)

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[Leukocyte]

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Are you saying Ross students have as much flexibility as any D.O. student in regards to where he or she can rotate in the U.S. because if you believe this then you are heavily misinformed.

I do not think anyone knows the answer to this question. If it is not written on paper, then it is all speculation. It really depends on the hospital. Some hospitals will not take DO students. Others will not take Caribbeans. I know a Ross student who did all his rotations at Brown University (cores and electives), so, who knows!

 

[Leukocyte]

oops, my previous post got deleted.

I was saying that Ross does have a teaching hospital in Dominica-Princess Marg. Hosp., and I am sure SGU has one too.

 

[DWP DO]

Being a practicing DO in the southeastern US, perhaps I can add a perspective (based on my own experience) to help pre-meds make an informed decision as to whether or not to attend an osteopathic medical school vs foreign (caribbean).

During osteopathic medical school I received a full military scholarship, something which is NOT possible in the Caribbean. Doing so saved me thousands of dollars.

I attended an allopathic (MD) residency program, and am now board certified by an allopathic (MD) board. In addition, I am licensed by the exact same state licensing board (with the exact same license) as my allopathic counterparts.

Furthermore, I am employed side-by-side MD's, doing the exact same job, for the exact same pay, and doing the job as well as they are.

As for explaining to patients what "DO" means, in the past 7 years I can count on one hand how many patients have asked. And certainly none have cared. Patients care more about how they are treated.

As for stigma, I have yet to encounter any. But, having participated in the residency selection process at an ACGME program in the US, I can tell you for a fact that FMG's face more difficulty in securing a US ACGME position. Don't be misled about this.

So, faced with the choice of DO vs FMG, I strongly recommend DO. You can become any type of physician you want to be as a DO, practice in any state, and make essentially same amount of money, with fewer administrative challenges.

The decision between the two really is a "no brainer".
DWP

 

[nradsoit3]

I attended an allopathic (MD) residency program, and am now board certified by an allopathic (MD) board. In addition, I am licensed by the exact same state licensing board (with the exact same license) as my allopathic counterparts.

Furthermore, I am employed side-by-side MD's, doing the exact same job, for the exact same pay, and doing the job as well as they are.

DWP

Likewise if you go to one of the Carribbean medical schools. Your "analysis" loses all credibility in my book when you refer to the decision to go to DO over Caribbean as a "no brainer"- Going to Harvard med over DO school is a "no brainer". I NEVER considered going the DO route and can say the same of many of my fellow carib grads.

 

[DrMom]

I can see no reason for this thread to be a sticky. I'm going to remove the sticky and let the thread continue on.

And remember, discussion is good...bashing is unacceptable.

 

[golfer1]

Excellent post and I agree. If you are a young person or someone who doesn't plan on having a family for a long time and you really want to do ENT, neurosurgery, dermatology, opthalmology, plastic surgery, urology and other extremely competitive specialized fields, you should reapply to an MD school until you get into one.

But if you have some hope of specializing and you can't get into an MD school a DO will be much better than a foreign MD in helping you specialize...that's for sure.

I'm attending DO school and even I get into heavy arguments with fellow DO's who imply that as a DO, you will have an equal chance to specialize in neurosurgery, plastic surgery, dermatology, opthalmology, ENT, and urology as an MD. The truth is that even the best DO student will have a tougher time than their allopathic counterpart in entering these specialties.

But don't let me mislead you because not all specialties are DO unfriendly. This doesn't apply to all specialties but just the ones listed above. Emergency medicine, anesthesiology, general surgery, OB/GYN, and PM&R are routinely matched by DO's. Orthopedic surgery and Radiology are somewhere in between depending upon what area of the country you are in.


So if you want to enter neurosurgery, platic surgery dermatology, opthalmology, ENT, and urology, it's better to wait and reapply as an MD. Yes, there are osteopathic versions of these but they are few and far between. For example, there are only 2 DO plastics fellowships in the entire US. Optho and Neuro only have a handfull of residencies too so it's not like you have an equal chance as an MD that have more number of residencies in these fields.

Forgive me, as I am new at this (just joined) and hope this goes through. I am replying, as I am also a DO student, but due to some of the facts you have stated concerning specialities, I am considering applying for transfer to an allopathic school. Has this thought ever crossed your mind as well?

 

[Skip Intro]

I can see no reason for this thread to be a sticky. I'm going to remove the sticky and let the thread continue on.

And remember, discussion is good...bashing is unacceptable.

I think it started as a sticky because it had some good points, but it should have been closed and posted only as a sticky without the ability to reply to it. If you give people the chance to reply, the pissing matches inevitably start.

Such is life.

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[azcomdiddy]

The bigger issue, and what you are still missing, is the fact that the vast majority of training is done in affiliated hospitals, and there is not "carte blanche" flexibility of any U.S. student, be they D.O. or M.D., to go pretty much wherever they want to do their cores as you have suggested.

I never admitted that DO students had carte blanche in setting up rotations. How could I admit that if I clearly stated that some programs do not accept DO's. We are speaking in relative terms. Relative to a Caribbean student, DO students have carete blanche in setting up rotations because they are U.S. students and often get priority over IMG's.

I've still been able to circumvent this and do a rotation in one particular hospital. (But, I'll be the first to admit that this often has more to do with who you know, and not necessarily where you come from.)
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Wouldn't you call this red tape? Having to circumvent a process is the same thing as saying you are "cutting through the red tape."

What red tape? I sent my Step 1 score to the NY State DOE, along with a check for $20 and a $0.37 stamp, and got a two-year approval to do all my clinicals in New York. It took me all of 5 minutes to complete the form and send it in.

This is what started the debate. This statement is what you have lost sight of. Are you still denying there is red tape? The point we were all making is that Caribbean students have to circumvent certain processes that U.S. grads don't have to. Many Caribbean students would rather not deal with this mess and just stick to the affiliated Ross sites which are geographically limited when compared to sites affiliated with U.S. schools. As an example, you have one site in California, the nations largest state. And that California site is shared among St. George and AUC students. Also, you have to be in the top of your class at Ross to be given the opportunity to rotate there. These are all impediments that DO students don't deal with. I have many places in Cali that I can go. I don't have to be at the top of my class or anything like that.

 

[azcomdiddy]

I do not think anyone knows the answer to this question. If it is not written on paper, then it is all speculation. It really depends on the hospital. Some hospitals will not take DO students. Others will not take Caribbeans. I know a Ross student who did all his rotations at Brown University (cores and electives), so, who knows!

We all know the answer to this just based on geography. How many affliated core rotation sites do you have in Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Washington, Texas, Oregon, and Nevada. NONE! You only have one in California. Nearly all of your sites are in New York or on the East coast. We can rotate pretty much anywhere in the country. If you are limited to certain areas of the country then you don't have the same flexibility as a DO student.

 

[Skip Intro]

We all know the answer to this just based on geography. How many affliated core rotation sites do you have in Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Washington, Texas, Oregon, and Nevada. NONE! You only have one in California. Nearly all of your sites are in New York or on the East coast.

What does this prove exactly?

We can rotate pretty much anywhere in the country.

"Pretty much" the same for us, with a few exceptions that are not in contention. Again, what does this prove anyway?

If you are limited to certain areas of the country then you don't have the same flexibility as a DO student.

You're assuming something which is not necessarily true, and you're basing your entire argument on this assumption, which also happens to be moot for the most part. We both know, again, that the vast majority of clerkships are done at affiliated hospitals. The flexibility issue, as an implicit indicator of superiority of a particular program, is a confounding detractor and is for the most part irrelevant. And, even conceding this point (which I already have), the overall advantage that this affords one in the grand scheme of things is very slight at best.

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[OnMyWayThere]

Why do you guys try and make one seem better than the other? Some people do not believe in the Osteopathic philosophy and want to be MD's... more power to them. Why would you want people going the DO route if they don't believe in it? Did you do that? In my opinion, it's all good! Either way, will all work side by side in the foreseeable (sp?) future. In the meantime, to each his own.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Why do you guys try and make one seem better than the other? to each his own.

Bingo. Everything else makes the posters look a bit foolish, IMHO.

 

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Bingo. Everything else makes the posters look a bit foolish, IMHO.

(redacted)

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[azcomdiddy]

*edited by DrMom due to personal info being posted*

 

[azcomdiddy]

*edited by DrMom: personal info from PM posted*

 

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*edited by DrMom due to personal info*

 

[azcomdiddy]

You forgot this part:



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That's classic