The Role Of Religion In Medicine

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Should Religion Be Integrated Into Medicine?


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Doctors aren't chaplains

The misguided effort to meld religion and medicine.
By Richard P. Sloan, RICHARD P. SLOAN, director of the behavioral medical program at Columbia University Medical Center and the New York State Psychiatric Institute, is the author of "Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of R
December 2, 2006

HOW WOULD you like your doctor, at your next examination, to ask not only about your diet and symptoms but about your spiritual life?

How would you like your surgeon to ask, while you're on the gurney ready to be wheeled in for an operation, if you'd mind if he says a quick prayer?

Or if he suggested that perhaps you should?

These questions are not farfetched these days. A concerted effort is underway to make religious practices part of clinical medicine. About two-thirds of U.S. medical schools now offer some form of training on the role of religion and spirituality in medicine, according to Dr. Harold Koenig of Duke University.

With support from the National Institutes of Health, researchers are now studying the effect of third-party prayer on cancer patients. Research on the connection between religious activity and cardiac health was published in the Lancet, one of the top peer-reviewed medical journals. The John Templeton Foundation, whose annual prize on spiritual discoveries exceeds the amount of the Nobel Prize in medicine, has funded dozens of medical researchers, some at top-tier institutions, who claim an association between religious devotion and better health.

Some prominent physicians are calling for the wall of separation between religion and medicine to be torn down. They declare that the future of medicine is prayer and Prozac, and they recommend that doctors take a "spiritual history" during a patient's initial visit and annually thereafter. Walter Larimore, an award-winning physician, for instance, has declared that excluding God from a consultation should be grounds for malpractice.

Of course, religion is not utterly irrelevant to patients. If it were, hospitals would not have chaplains and chapels. But before organized medicine decides that religion has any value in physical healing, several things ought to be considered. First, the scientific evidence supposedly linking religious practices with better health is shockingly weak — so bad, in fact, that if we were discussing drugs, the Food and Drug Administration would have to find them unsafe and ineffective. Most research studies that claim to show how religious involvement is associated with better health fail to rule out other factors that might account for the relationship.

We all agree, for instance, that there is a real connection between lung cancer and carrying a cigarette lighter in your pocket, but no one thinks that the lighter causes cancer. The lighter is a marker of another factor — smoking — that has been scientifically proved to cause the cancer.

In precisely the same way, religious practices are likely to be markers of some other factor — for example, social support from family, friends or the community or, perhaps, the absence of behavioral risk factors — that may lower the risk of disease.

Studies that show, for example, the health benefits of attending worship services or reading the Bible often make this mistake. A study of residents of Washington County, Md. — the largest study ever to demonstrate that church attendance was associated with reduced mortality — made precisely this error; it failed to recognize that attendance itself was a marker for good health.

The effort to link health and religion has other problems as well. For one thing, doctors already have so little time in their interactions with patients that they routinely fail to follow established guidelines for preventive care and for treatment of chronic disease. If, in the future, physicians spend their limited time with patients engaging in spiritual inquiries, they will have even less time to address depression, smoking cessation, weight control or diabetes self-care — factors that are demonstrably related to disease and an increased risk of mortality.

More problematic still is the actual effect on patients when physicians abuse the privileged authority inherent in the role of the doctor by manipulating the religious sentiments of frightened and vulnerable patients. Physicians risk transgressing other ethical boundaries when they tell their patients that religious practices can improve their health. Asserting that prayer can promote recovery can lead patients who fare poorly to question their spiritual devotion and to experience guilt and remorse over their supposed religious failures.

Perhaps most important of all, efforts to connect religion and medical practice are bad for religion itself. Bringing religion to the examining table subjects it to the laws of science, stripping away all elements of transcendence.

A recent report, for instance, suggesting that religious experience is based on the neurochemistry of the serotonin system in the brain is a perfect example of how religion is trivialized by studying it scientifically.

The same goes for efforts to use modern neuroimaging techniques to take a "photograph of God," as proposed by University of Pennsylvania neurologist Andrew Newberg, the author of a recent book on "neurotheology." That represents precisely the false idolatry that many religions caution us to avoid.

All of us, sooner or later, will succumb to illness and death. Some will die prematurely. Others will live longer than expected. For many, illness will raise important religious and spiritual concerns, providing comfort to some and anxiety to others.

No one disputes the significance of these concerns, but recognizing that they arise inDoctors aren't chaplains

The misguided effort to meld religion and medicine.
By Richard P. Sloan, RICHARD P. SLOAN, director of the behavioral medical program at Columbia University Medical Center and the New York State Psychiatric Institute, is the author of "Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of R
December 2, 2006

HOW WOULD you like your doctor, at your next examination, to ask not only about your diet and symptoms but about your spiritual life?

How would you like your surgeon to ask, while you're on the gurney ready to be wheeled in for an operation, if you'd mind if he says a quick prayer?

Or if he suggested that perhaps you should?

These questions are not farfetched these days. A concerted effort is underway to make religious practices part of clinical medicine. About two-thirds of U.S. medical schools now offer some form of training on the role of religion and spirituality in medicine, according to Dr. Harold Koenig of Duke University.

With support from the National Institutes of Health, researchers are now studying the effect of third-party prayer on cancer patients. Research on the connection between religious activity and cardiac health was published in the Lancet, one of the top peer-reviewed medical journals. The John Templeton Foundation, whose annual prize on spiritual discoveries exceeds the amount of the Nobel Prize in medicine, has funded dozens of medical researchers, some at top-tier institutions, who claim an association between religious devotion and better health.

Some prominent physicians are calling for the wall of separation between religion and medicine to be torn down. They declare that the future of medicine is prayer and Prozac, and they recommend that doctors take a "spiritual history" during a patient's initial visit and annually thereafter. Walter Larimore, an award-winning physician, for instance, has declared that excluding God from a consultation should be grounds for malpractice.

Of course, religion is not utterly irrelevant to patients. If it were, hospitals would not have chaplains and chapels. But before organized medicine decides that religion has any value in physical healing, several things ought to be considered. First, the scientific evidence supposedly linking religious practices with better health is shockingly weak — so bad, in fact, that if we were discussing drugs, the Food and Drug Administration would have to find them unsafe and ineffective. Most research studies that claim to show how religious involvement is associated with better health fail to rule out other factors that might account for the relationship.

We all agree, for instance, that there is a real connection between lung cancer and carrying a cigarette lighter in your pocket, but no one thinks that the lighter causes cancer. The lighter is a marker of another factor — smoking — that has been scientifically proved to cause the cancer.

In precisely the same way, religious practices are likely to be markers of some other factor — for example, social support from family, friends or the community or, perhaps, the absence of behavioral risk factors — that may lower the risk of disease.

Studies that show, for example, the health benefits of attending worship services or reading the Bible often make this mistake. A study of residents of Washington County, Md. — the largest study ever to demonstrate that church attendance was associated with reduced mortality — made precisely this error; it failed to recognize that attendance itself was a marker for good health.

The effort to link health and religion has other problems as well. For one thing, doctors already have so little time in their interactions with patients that they routinely fail to follow established guidelines for preventive care and for treatment of chronic disease. If, in the future, physicians spend their limited time with patients engaging in spiritual inquiries, they will have even less time to address depression, smoking cessation, weight control or diabetes self-care — factors that are demonstrably related to disease and an increased risk of mortality.

More problematic still is the actual effect on patients when physicians abuse the privileged authority inherent in the role of the doctor by manipulating the religious sentiments of frightened and vulnerable patients. Physicians risk transgressing other ethical boundaries when they tell their patients that religious practices can improve their health. Asserting that prayer can promote recovery can lead patients who fare poorly to question their spiritual devotion and to experience guilt and remorse over their supposed religious failures.

Perhaps most important of all, efforts to connect religion and medical practice are bad for religion itself. Bringing religion to the examining table subjects it to the laws of science, stripping away all elements of transcendence.

A recent report, for instance, suggesting that religious experience is based on the neurochemistry of the serotonin system in the brain is a perfect example of how religion is trivialized by studying it scientifically.

The same goes for efforts to use modern neuroimaging techniques to take a "photograph of God," as proposed by University of Pennsylvania neurologist Andrew Newberg, the author of a recent book on "neurotheology." That represents precisely the false idolatry that many religions caution us to avoid.

All of us, sooner or later, will succumb to illness and death. Some will die prematurely. Others will live longer than expected. For many, illness will raise important religious and spiritual concerns, providing comfort to some and anxiety to others.

No one disputes the significance of these concerns, but recognizing that they arise in times of illness doesn't mean that doctors should take them on as part of their responsibility. These are matters for patients, their families and the ordained clergy.
times of illness doesn't mean that doctors should take them on as part of their responsibility. These are matters for patients, their families and the ordained clergy.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-sloan2dec02,0,4668000.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail


I'm of the opinion that Religion should have a role in Medicine. If Medicine is about making people healthier and happier. I fail to see how Medicine can achieve that goal if it denies our innate spirituality. Doctors need to realize that our emotional and spiritual health is related to our physical well being and therefore can not be neglected.

That's my take on it. What's yours?

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I don't think the poll options are good or representative of the debate. For instance, religion can be helpful in terms of assessing your patient's support network (I did that all the time when working in psych, you check all possible branches of social support - friends, family, profession, organizational, spiritual, etc.). Religion can be bad, however, once you start making assumptions or pushing a patient down a particular line, especially if they don't share the same faith, or take offense at your efforts (which can induce anger and stress which *worsens* outcome). For instance, how would a spiritually inclined physician approach an agnostic like me without proselytizing?

So, as such, I agree with the article that religion and spirituality can be indicators of other behaviors and indices of support, but don't agree with the "denying our spiritual side/third party prayer" claims. So I'm not voting.
 
I agree that the patient's health comes first, and so if he or she wanted to pray with me I would have no objection (I am agnostic). I feel like prayer can influence the patient's attitude and bring about a sort of placebo effect that could help the healing process. That said, I don't think that religion should share the spotlight with science in medicine. Our role as doctors is not to preach religion but to use treatments based on the best current evidence. Also, those who are not religious might rightly feel wary of a doctor who imposed prayer and religion on them during treatment. Overall, I guess that praying with a patient is fine, but it should never become central to treatment.
 
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I don't think the poll options are good or representative of the debate. For instance, religion can be helpful in terms of assessing your patient's support network (I did that all the time when working in psych, you check all possible branches of social support - friends, family, profession, organizational, spiritual, etc.). Religion can be bad, however, once you start making assumptions or pushing a patient down a particular line, especially if they don't share the same faith, or take offense at your efforts (which can induce anger and stress which *worsens* outcome). For instance, how would a spiritually inclined physician approach an agnostic like me without proselytizing?

So, as such, I agree with the article that religion and spirituality can be indicators of other behaviors and indices of support, but don't agree with the "denying our spiritual side/third party prayer" claims. So I'm not voting.
Agree. I think incorporating religious views can be helpful for certain patients and harmful for others. It can also be helpful for a given patient under certain circumstances and harmful under others. You can't make such cut and dry statements that religion is *always* good or *always* bad for all patients all the time.

OP, if you want me to add some more poll options, I can do that for you.
 
I don't think the poll options are good or representative of the debate. For instance, religion can be helpful in terms of assessing your patient's support network (I did that all the time when working in psych, you check all possible branches of social support - friends, family, profession, organizational, spiritual, etc.). Religion can be bad, however, once you start making assumptions or pushing a patient down a particular line, especially if they don't share the same faith, or take offense at your efforts (which can induce anger and stress which *worsens* outcome). For instance, how would a spiritually inclined physician approach an agnostic like me without proselytizing?

So, as such, I agree with the article that religion and spirituality can be indicators of other behaviors and indices of support, but don't agree with the "denying our spiritual side/third party prayer" claims. So I'm not voting.

I agree that these poll options aren't adequate. I have just graduated medical school in the south. I have had a number of patients and their family members ask if they could pray with me and although I'm not Christian, it certainly isn't going to hurt me to hold their hands and close my eyes while they pray in a difficult time.

For patients who seem at a loss or are having a hard time coping, I might ask in a general way if they have any support systems such as family nearby, coworkers who could drop in, or perhaps support from a church they attend. I think it's totally appropriate when worded like that.

However, I believe that generally, that should be the limit of our religiosity in the hospital. We are not chaplains and are not trained to fully care for the religious needs of our patients. Even if you happend to be a minister or hold some other non-layperson title in your own religion, you are not trained appropriately in the religions of others. I think that for non-Christian patients (I'm assuming most of the physicians who want be more spiritual with their patients are Christian--I have never seen a Hindu or Jewish or Buddhist or Muslim physician discuss his/her faith as publicly), a physician formally representing any one particular faith could be a scary prospect.
 
I'm with all of you guys on this one. If it's what the patient wants and it will help their spirit and morale, then I'm all for it. I don't think it should necessarily be integrated though or should the doctor request it. That gets close to forcing your beliefs onto a patient. I'm a religious person relatively speaking and I might want to say a little prayer before performing an operation on a patient, but I don't think I would do that in front of them because that is of my own belief. I like this thread, can we get some more ethical issues up here?
 
I don't know exactly that it should be "integrated", but I do think that doctors need to address the spiritual side of things for the patients. The vast majority of people in the U.S. do believe in God and when it comes to stressful medical decisions, I'm sure their beliefs do play an important and meaningful role to the patients and their family. To not at least ask about their beliefs could mean that you were missing out on something that will impact their medical treatment significantly.
 
Bad idea. While it definitely would be helpful for some, it's a role that their family and religious affiliates should provide. For instance, my parents would be helped by this. I, for one, would be stressed out if someone suggested my spirituality as a healing process, because it is not something that i feel I have a lot of control over.

Whether the patient is happy or not, though, is a different issue. This should definitely be addressed, and it does seem to have some medical impact... and if spirituality is what makes them happy...
 
I don't know if someone mentioned this, but if I'm about to undergo surgery, I don't want my surgeon telling me that I should say a prayer. It's not that I would be offended, I just wouldn't feel very safe after that.
 
I don't know if someone mentioned this, but if I'm about to undergo surgery, I don't want my surgeon telling me that I should say a prayer. It's not that I would be offended, I just wouldn't feel very safe after that.

mmm... good point. Again, I think it's personal and shouldn't be forced by doctors. If a patient asks for it, or wants to do it themselves b/c they think it will help them, then by all means.
 
Exactly. I've had patients say they want to say a prayer before they are put to sleep. During the time they're in the OR, it's all about them and whatever makes them feel comfortable.

The confidence I had in my surgeon would just drop significantly if he suggested I say a prayer before going under anesthesia.
 
uh, thanks but no thanks. I have other people for that job.

I don't know if someone mentioned this, but if I'm about to undergo surgery, I don't want my surgeon telling me that I should say a prayer. It's not that I would be offended, I just wouldn't feel very safe after that.

haha, so true.
 
Absolutely not. Medicine is a science, and just the possibility of religious thought getting in the way of a treatment is a scary prospect. It is also a scary prospect to imagine the possible discrimination of people who do not believe in the same religion that the doctor does. Not only is it not necessary, but it is potentially dangerous when coupled with liability. People could end up getting lesser treatment for their religions, patients may start requesting ONLY doctors of a particular religion, and I think it is a slippery slope that we should not go down.
 
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Incidentally, the hospitals I've worked at have always had some form of pastoral care, so it's not like spirituality has been ignored in health care. There are just people who's entire role is the spiritual well-being of the patients who are inclined or who feel working with their spiritual side can be an adjuvant therapy.
 
Where is the option that says it doesn't matter because religion and medicine are independent of one another?

I should become an anesthesiologist so that I can cross-examine women in labor about their feelings regarding evolution. Ma'am, this epidural works on all primates because we come from a common ancestor. Is that okay? I hope so because we don't have any human-specific drugs for you. Now if you are dead-set on this notion that humans were created separately, I'll just step out and serve some patients that have a proper appreciation for the science that generated the medicine you benefit from. Have a nice day.

BTW, is there an ICD-9 code that allows me to bill out for prayer prescriptions? Should I have to add the Bible to my USMLE prep material? If so, which religious book do I have to study?

Damn those fish-squirrels having butt-sex with ****** babies. (South Park reference)
 
Hi.

This thread should have been called, "I'm 20-something, Think I Know Everything, and I'm So Smart That Not Only Can I Completely Discount Religion Except for the Vapid Crystal Worshiping, I'm Okay, You're Okay Psychobabble that Passes for Religion Nowadays But Everybody Who Believes in an Absolute God is an Idiot."

But that title would have been kind of long.
 
Besides, religious belief is already incorporated into medicine. They call it "acupuncture."
 
Oh, and religion has no place in medicine except to guide ethical decisions. I love my patients but when their demented, contracted mother is in the ICU being kept in a tenuous state of zombification by every machine, inotrope, and pressor known to man and they say, when asked about withdrawing futile care, "Oh, we're just going to leave it in God's hands" I want to throttle them.

How about we turn off the vent and see what the Lord really wants.
 
And another thing, integrating spirituality into your practice is another example of mission creep. How about addressing the chief complaint or managing the condition? My priest doesn't do my job, I'm not going to do his.
 
Oh, and religion has no place in medicine except to guide ethical decisions. I love my patients but when their demented, contracted mother is in the ICU being kept in a tenuous state of zombification by every machine, inotrope, and pressor known to man and they say, when asked about withdrawing futile care, "Oh, we're just going to leave it in God's hands" I want to throttle them.

How about we turn off the vent and see what the Lord really wants.

:thumbup: So true. I've heard that most people spend 90% of the money they will spend in their entire lives on healthcare in the last month of living and I can't help but wonder what role religion plays into this. It sure isn't common sense that tells daughter to let mother sit there in a comatose state racking up a 1 million dollar bill from life support.
 
:thumbup: So true. I've heard that most people spend 90% of the money they will spend in their entire lives on healthcare in the last month of living and I can't help but wonder what role religion plays into this. It sure isn't common sense that tells daughter to let mother sit there in a comatose state racking up a 1 million dollar bill from life support.


I see your point, but it's not for us to decide that. Even non-religious types often keep their loved ones in such a state. It's hard to give up on a loved one and a lot of people just don't want to come to terms with that kind of loss regardless of their belief in God. It would be interesting to see a study on the role of religion in something like this however.
 
Religion should play no role in medicine. There is no reason to. No benefits. It encourages stagnation.
 
:thumbup: So true. I've heard that most people spend 90% of the money they will spend in their entire lives on healthcare in the last month of living and I can't help but wonder what role religion plays into this. It sure isn't common sense that tells daughter to let mother sit there in a comatose state racking up a 1 million dollar bill from life support.

Well, conversely it could be a function of society as we've been primed to keep people alive for fear of not doing everything we could to save someone's life.
 
Oh, and religion has no place in medicine except to guide ethical decisions.

That seems rather like saying the patient's job has no relevance to their treatment, except as a way to pay for the medical bills. But it does have an impact on their care (what they've been exposed to, what stresses they're under, what their education level is, etc.). How can the same not be said for their religion? Their religious community provides them with support, their beliefs provide them with meaning and many patients do believe that prayers can heal. I suspect a fair number of doctors do too.

Granted, you're a practicing doctor and I'm not one yet, but I think you're underestimating how important this is to many patients, their families and how it really can impact their medical care. As you pointed out, maybe it's not always a positive impact, but I think it still deserves at least as much consideration as say their job, ethnicity, etc.
 
That seems rather like saying the patient's job has no relevance to their treatment, except as a way to pay for the medical bills. But it does have an impact on their care (what they've been exposed to, what stresses they're under, what their education level is, etc.). How can the same not be said for their religion? Their religious community provides them with support, their beliefs provide them with meaning and many patients do believe that prayers can heal. I suspect a fair number of doctors do too.

Granted, you're a practicing doctor and I'm not one yet, but I think you're underestimating how important this is to many patients, their families and how it really can impact their medical care. As you pointed out, maybe it's not always a positive impact, but I think it still deserves at least as much consideration as say their job, ethnicity, etc.

Support, wellbeing, meaning, feeling good about yourself...all of these things are over-rated when it comes to their impact on your health. We pay lip-service to all of that crap but colon cancer probably doesn't care how you feel about it either way. It's going to kill you or not depending on your surgeon and the radiation oncologist.

The patients want respect, honesty, and your best possible efforts on their behalf. There is no need to patronize them by pretending to be cool with their beliefs if you're not. Or to bend and contort yourself to mirror every one of their cultural beliefs. Hey, they came to see you for a medical problem. What you're going to do for them obviously can't be that much of an imposition or they would have stayed home. You folks are falling into the trap of thinking you are going to be more important than you will actually be. You will not have the time to worm yourself all up in your patients ****. Even if you did this is terrific "mission creep" and you need to back off.

Besides, even though I'm a religious guy, it seems kind of...I don't know...ungrateful to pray to God to take away an affliction he gave you for His own good purpose. It's kind of like asking the Almighty to change his mind. That's why I don't believe in praying for things (like health, prosperity, good grades, etc).

Also, the more you feel that you need to get all mushy and empathetic with your patients the closer your specialty is to being replaced by midlevel providers.

Sorry.
 
Ethnicity, by the way, is mostly unimportant despite what they tell you in medical school except that some racial groups have a greater propensity for certain diseases.

On the other hand, if a black guy comes to with diabetes it is completely irrelevant whether or not black men are statistically more likely to have diabetes. He's standing in front of you, not a statistic, waiting for your plan.

When you hear the word "diversity" you should reach for your revolver. It's a code word for institutional racism.
 
Besides, even though I'm a religious guy, it seems kind of...I don't know...ungrateful to pray to God to take away an affliction he gave you for His own good purpose. It's kind of like asking the Almighty to change his mind. That's why I don't believe in praying for things (like health, prosperity, good grades, etc).

Obviously, we have different views of why someone gets a disease. Besides, in a prayer (so far as I am familiar with the term), it's a request you're making, not an order.

Furthermore, if this is what you believe (that God gives people diseases for various purposes), wouldn't you, as a doctor, in fact be violating God's will in attempting to cure their disease?
 
Besides, even though I'm a religious guy, it seems kind of...I don't know...ungrateful to pray to God to take away an affliction he gave you for His own good purpose. It's kind of like asking the Almighty to change his mind. That's why I don't believe in praying for things (like health, prosperity, good grades, etc).




God shouldn't be soley responsible for our afflictions. So many times it's because of the bad choices we've made.

Furthermore, if this is what you believe (that God gives people diseases for various purposes), wouldn't you, as a doctor, in fact be violating God's will in attempting to cure their disease?

Healing the sick isn't against God's will. Jesus himself healed the sick. No one can violate God's will, all things happen because of Divine Providence. Hence if a God wanted someone to die of disease all the Doctors in the world wouldn't be able to help.
 
Furthermore, if this is what you believe (that God gives people diseases for various purposes), wouldn't you, as a doctor, in fact be violating God's will in attempting to cure their disease?
Reading comprehension > you

He's talking about asking God himself to change his own plan. The doctors are very well part of God's plan to cure the diseases for the people that were ment to be cured. And that's as far as it goes.

God's plan was to give someone a disease. God's plan was also for the doctor to attempt to cure this person of the disease. This doctor may or may not be able to cure the person, only God knows that.

In the end, God's plan was not for his plan to be rearranged by you asking (read: praying) it to be. Huge difference. The doctor may be trying to cure the disease so it looks like he is changing God's plan but he really isn't. God made the doctor do it. Anything that happens here on earth is part of God's plan. Period. He is saying that praying is meaningless because you aren't doing anything but asking god to change his plan, and thats not going to happen.
 
Reading comprehension > you

He's talking about asking God himself to change his own plan. The doctors are very well part of God's plan to cure the diseases for the people that were ment to be cured. And that's as far as it goes.

God's plan was to give someone a disease. God's plan was also for the doctor to attempt to cure this person of the disease. This doctor may or may not be able to cure the person, only God knows that.

In the end, God's plan was not for his plan to be rearranged by you asking (read: praying) it to be. Huge difference. The doctor may be trying to cure the disease so it looks like he is changing God's plan but he really isn't. God made the doctor do it. Anything that happens here on earth is part of God's plan. Period. He is saying that praying is meaningless because you aren't doing anything but asking god to change his plan, and thats not going to happen.

The point of praying is you don't know what God's plans are. And if you read the Bible God actually changes his Mind about stuff.

"If my own people will humbly pray and turn back to me and stop sinning, then I will answer them from heaven. I will forgive them and make their land fertile once again. "

2 Chronicles 7:14

The point is prayer can influence God.
 
Doctors should be thoughtful. There are situations when it could be appropriate, but walking into a patient's room and starting a prayer would probably not be the right way to go.
 
The point of praying is you don't know what God's plans are. And if you read the Bible God actually changes his Mind about stuff.

"If my own people will humbly pray and turn back to me and stop sinning, then I will answer them from heaven. I will forgive them and make their land fertile once again. "

2 Chronicles 7:14

The point is prayer can influence God.
w/e

Either way, it doesn't work.
 
I think religion is a personal issue and doesn't need to be brought up between patient and doctor. If a patient chooses to pray for healing or help, then let them. If a doctor wants to pray before a procedure, then let them. But neither of them really needs to hear what the other does or does not do. Nor does either need to be told by the other what should be done.

When my grandma was fighting her cancer, she often read (or had someone read to her) that psalm about.. man I can't remember it, but it was about not feeling scared, walking somewhere.. I want to say it was in the 20s.. 23 or something? The psalm number. ANYway, it made her feel better, and that was all that mattered. There was no need for the doctor to interfere. That's what spiritual and religious leaders are for.
 
Any of you stepped foot in the Johns Hopkins Hospital? Not only is there a chapel, but there's even a giant statue of Jesus in one of the main entrances. Very interesting.

As for prayer changing God's will/plan or changing His mind - you guys are venturing into predestination vs free will and you're going to get nowhere so don't bother. Basically you can't use the Bible to justify predestination vs free will, mainly because the Bible claims both, and also anything you read is up for interpretation anyway.
 
Any of you stepped foot in the Johns Hopkins Hospital? Not only is there a chapel, but there's even a giant statue of Jesus in one of the main entrances. Very interesting.

As for prayer changing God's will/plan or changing His mind - you guys are venturing into predestination vs free will and you're going to get nowhere so don't bother. Basically you can't use the Bible to justify predestination vs free will, mainly because the Bible claims both, and also anything you read is up for interpretation anyway.

Johns Hopkins came from a devote Quaker family.
He died without heirs in 1873 and left $7 million, mostly in Baltimore & Ohio Railroad stock, to establish his namesake institutions. This sum was the single largest philanthropic donation ever made to educational institutions up until that time. The bequest was used to found the Johns Hopkins Colored Children Orphan Asylum in 1875, the Johns Hopkins University in 1876, the Johns Hopkins Press in 1878 (the longest continuously operating academic press in America), the Johns Hopkins Hospital and the Johns Hopkins School of Nursing in 1889, and the Johns Hopkins Medical School in 1893.
He died without heirs in 1873 and left $7 million, mostly in Baltimore & Ohio Railroad stock, to establish his namesake institutions. This sum was the single largest philanthropic donation ever made to educational institutions up until that time. The bequest was used to found the Johns Hopkins Colored Children Orphan Asylum in 1875, the Johns Hopkins University in 1876, the Johns Hopkins Press in 1878 (the longest continuously operating academic press in America), the Johns Hopkins Hospital and the Johns Hopkins School of Nursing in 1889, and the Johns Hopkins Medical School in 1893.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johns_Hopkins

The interesting thing is Johns Hopkins is the model that all Medical Schools today are based upon. They were the first school to require 4 years of Undergrad. Establish clinicals ect. Before that Medical students came straight from High School and were the types that couldn't get into decent Liberal arts Colleges. Things certainly have changed.
 
Johns Hopkins came from a devote Quaker family.
He died without heirs in 1873 and left $7 million, mostly in Baltimore & Ohio Railroad stock, to establish his namesake institutions. This sum was the single largest philanthropic donation ever made to educational institutions up until that time. The bequest was used to found the Johns Hopkins Colored Children Orphan Asylum in 1875, the Johns Hopkins University in 1876, the Johns Hopkins Press in 1878 (the longest continuously operating academic press in America), the Johns Hopkins Hospital and the Johns Hopkins School of Nursing in 1889, and the Johns Hopkins Medical School in 1893.
He died without heirs in 1873 and left $7 million, mostly in Baltimore & Ohio Railroad stock, to establish his namesake institutions. This sum was the single largest philanthropic donation ever made to educational institutions up until that time. The bequest was used to found the Johns Hopkins Colored Children Orphan Asylum in 1875, the Johns Hopkins University in 1876, the Johns Hopkins Press in 1878 (the longest continuously operating academic press in America), the Johns Hopkins Hospital and the Johns Hopkins School of Nursing in 1889, and the Johns Hopkins Medical School in 1893.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johns_Hopkins
Do these other facilities also still have Christian elements in them? I meant that it was interesting because with so many different peoples going through JHMI that I'm surprised no one complained or that they simply just didn't remove the stuff to be fair to all peoples.

The interesting thing is Johns Hopkins is the model that all Medical Schools today are based upon. They were the first school to require 4 years of Undergrad. Establish clinicals ect. Before that Medical students came straight from High School and were the types that couldn't get into decent Liberal arts Colleges. Things certainly have changed.
That's because of the Flexner Report.
 
Support, wellbeing, meaning, feeling good about yourself...all of these things are over-rated when it comes to their impact on your health.

Panda Bear, I swear you must have been asleep in some of your classes, or medical education is really slipping.

"The Psychoneuroimmunology Research Society is an international organization for researchers in a number of scientific and medical disciplines including psychology, neurosciences, immunology, pharmacology, psychiatry, behavioral medicine, infectious diseases, endocrinology and rheumatology, who are interested in interactions between the nervous system and the immune system, and the relationship between behavior and health."

www.pnirs.org
 
Reading comprehension > you

He's talking about asking God himself to change his own plan. The doctors are very well part of God's plan to cure the diseases for the people that were ment to be cured. And that's as far as it goes.

God's plan was to give someone a disease. God's plan was also for the doctor to attempt to cure this person of the disease. This doctor may or may not be able to cure the person, only God knows that.

In the end, God's plan was not for his plan to be rearranged by you asking (read: praying) it to be. Huge difference. The doctor may be trying to cure the disease so it looks like he is changing God's plan but he really isn't. God made the doctor do it. Anything that happens here on earth is part of God's plan. Period. He is saying that praying is meaningless because you aren't doing anything but asking god to change his plan, and thats not going to happen.

First of all, thanks for the ad hominem. Very trollish.

Secondly, to not pray for healing of disease because you believe you are asking God to "undo" His will seems like you are making a lot of assumptions about what His will is in the first place. You are assuming that He gives people diseases, and even if He does, couldn't it be the case that He gave it to you to get your attention so that you would pray and see the power that prayer can have?

And could you please quote me where it says prayers are meaningless. 1 Thes. 5:17 says "pray continually".
 
First of all, thanks for the ad hominem. Very trollish.

Secondly, to not pray for healing of disease because you believe you are asking God to "undo" His will seems like you are making a lot of assumptions about what His will is in the first place. You are assuming that He gives people diseases, and even if He does, couldn't it be the case that He gave it to you to get your attention so that you would pray and see the power that prayer can have?

And could you please quote me where it says prayers are meaningless. 1 Thes. 5:17 says "pray continually".
Like I said, I don't really care. It doens't work to begin with.
 
Panda Bear, I swear you must have been asleep in some of your classes, or medical education is really slipping.

"The Psychoneuroimmunology Research Society is an international organization for researchers in a number of scientific and medical disciplines including psychology, neurosciences, immunology, pharmacology, psychiatry, behavioral medicine, infectious diseases, endocrinology and rheumatology, who are interested in interactions between the nervous system and the immune system, and the relationship between behavior and health."

www.pnirs.org

Panda's going to believe whatever he wants to believe despite all evidence to the contrary. I mean having a cultist following from premeds on SDN must mean you're right, right? Even though the sky must be falling because I agree with him about religion in medicine.

Getting back to the point, the problem with religion in medicine is that it ignores (disvalues) people who aren't religious and people who aren't a part of the dominant religion. My school talks it up, and it makes me very uncomfortable because in Oklahoma, I'm sure religion in medicine really means Baptists in medicine. I agree that's it's good to assess people's psychosocial status and all, but I don't think it should go beyond that.
 
And for those of you who think religion should be more incorporated into medicine, do you think non-theists make worse doctors? Also, if you're religious and encounter a patient who's an atheist, is that going to bug you?
 
...Panda's going to believe whatever he wants to believe despite all evidence to the contrary. I mean having a cultist following from premeds on SDN must mean you're right, right?...

Come on now. In all fairness you need to point out that Zenman, as a modern day Shaman, believes that yer' ulcerative colitis can be cured by appealing to Utapu, the Otter God.
 
I think its appropriate to ask if a patient is spiritual in the social history, it gives you information about their support system and their state of mind and thats important. If a patient asked me to be with them while they pray or to facilitate something that would more comfortable because of their religion I would have no problem trying to accommodate them. If my holding their hand while they pray is going to make a big difference in their state of mind thats important to me. I don't think my religion or lack there of has any place in my relationship with my patients, its part of my personal baggage that I plan on leaving at the door.
 
As is probably obvious, I'm Hindu. That said, if a patient were Christian I would still pray with them if asked to do so. Down here, I met an imam who thought I was Pakistani and talked to me about the benefits of bringing God into patients' hearts. After his little speech, I didn't have the heart to tell him I was hindu, especially since, for the most part, I agreed with what he said. Happier patients lead to better outcomes. Even if it doesn't, it can't hurt.
There are many ways to patients happier, but only spirituality can help a patient accept his/her situation and fight for the optimum resolution.

Like what the above posters have already said religion doesn't work for everyone and I do not think that clinicians should say that patients should pray. However, a simple question of "are you religious" may be sufficient to set up some type of spiritual support during in-patient stay or have someone present during out-patient visits.
 
Like I said, I don't really care. It doens't work to begin with.

I am sure there are many who would disagree, who have seen prayer work in their own life, myself included.
 
I think there is a strong correlation between one's religious perspective and their healing. I think it would be great to integrate religion and medicine.
 
I think there is a strong correlation between one's religious perspective and their healing. I think it would be great to integrate religion and medicine.

But again, how are you going to deal with the non-religious patient? As a non-theist, I would be highly offended if a doctor proselytized to me or suggested prayer as a medical solution. Like a typical religious American, you're just assuming that everyone out there shares your values.
 
There is a connection between spirituality and emotions and the physical. It's called holistic medicine, and if you don't agree with it, you're in for a ****-storm when you're expected by the faculty to be engaged in it. What the hell did all those hours of volunteering teach you if not for the fact that people are people and have needs in every aspect of their being, not just in their physical being? Did you just do the volunteering to put the hours on your AMCAS?

Frankly, I am shocked that most of you people call yourselves "pre-medical" when you arrogantly decide on your own ignorant 20-year understanding of the universe that there is nothing more to your patients lives than what you can see in a radiology image or in the results of a blood test.

I feel sorry for your patients, if you have any.
 
There is a connection between spirituality and emotions and the physical. It's called holistic medicine, and if you don't agree with it, you're in for a ****-storm when you're expected by the faculty to be engaged in it. What the hell did all those hours of volunteering teach you if not for the fact that people are people and have needs in every aspect of their being, not just in their physical being? Did you just do the volunteering to put the hours on your AMCAS?

Frankly, I am shocked that most of you people call yourselves "pre-medical" when you arrogantly decide on your own ignorant 20-year understanding of the universe that there is nothing more to your patients lives than what you can see in a radiology image or in the results of a blood test.

I feel sorry for your patients, if you have any.

Well, we knew the stereotypical "you'll be a bad doctor" sdn attack had to hit. Thanks for sharing! :rolleyes:
 
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