The Sanders Tax Plan...the end of physician life as we know it?

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

I decided to post this here because firstly, the EM forum has some of the finest discussions on financial planning on SDN and secondly, because I'm 60-80% leaning towards going into EM.

At any rate, with some recent Sanders victories, the idea of the communist getting in the white house is no longer completely out of the question. Furthermore, now that Trump's campaign is imploding and a contested convention is looking more and more likely, we could see a downright meltdowm on the Republican side in the general and the democrats may gain control of both houses of Congress in addition to the presidency.

Are you guys worried? On the surface, the Sanders tax plan sounds like the stuff of a physician's nightmares. It eschews going after the machinations the really rich use to get richer in favor of taking a sledge hammer to W2 wages and other earned income for anyone in the middle class and above, with a particular emphasis on those making 200k+. In particular, Sander's plan to completely remove the cap on SS payroll tax is going to hurt real, real bad. Any thoughts?

[Of course, under Sanders single payer all private insurance would disappear in favor of 100% medicare, and medicare would pay 10% less than today, so that represents like a 50-60% cut in physician take home pay. But for craps and giggles let's assume we're only talking about the tax proposal, not his single payer armageddon.]

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[deleted480308]

this really should be in health care topics or sociopolitical

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

^^I was specifically curious about the impact on EM docs, since that is the field I am most likely to go into. I'd say there is probably enough differences between the tax situation of Orthos, Family Med, and EM to take a few examples to justify asking this question in a specialty specific context.

 

[gro2001]

I am very early in my career, so perhaps this is my naïveté speaking, but I am not too worried. I would not necessarily wish for the tax plan he proposes, but it might not be quite as horrible as some folks seem to believe, at least from where I'm standing.

First of all, the increases start on income above $250k, and the increase will start at +4%. I am currently in the North East where average community EM salaries are around $250k/year (for 30 hours/week at around $170/hour). If you throw in bonuses, and spouse income, and miscellaneous, that would push the average North East EM attending into above $250k territory, but the Bern would affect a relatively small portion of their income. Physicians in more highly paid specialties and my colleagues in Texas would be more affected, however.

Secondly, it is too early/impossible to estimate the effect of the rest on his policies on our wealth.

-If the extra tax means that I get to send my kids to college for free, then maybe I actually come out about even or perhaps ahead. Obviously how you feel about this will vary depending on how many kids you are planning to have.

-If he really will be able to pull off making a single payer system, that will definitely affect people differently. Physicians (and their families) get illnesses and expensive medical bills too. Even if you are lucky and no one in your family gets any expensive diseases over the course of your career, if you get to save a ton of money on health insurance and medical bills, you should also consider that against the extra tax burden.

-No one knows what would happen with reimbursement in a single payer system. Probably nothing much to EM income, but subspecialty ones will likely go down and primary care ones will go up. Still, it's difficult/impossible to predict what happens to our reimbursement models in such a system.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/3/25/11293258/tax-plan-calculator-2016
There is a nifty tool that purports to model the financial hit of the various candidates' tax plans. According to this tool, you will pay the following more in taxes under Sanders than you do today for the following incomes:

100k- you will pay $9,230 more for a total of $29,400 of Federal taxes
200k-you will pay $19,400 more for a total of $65,000 of Federal taxes
300k-you will pay $32,060 more for a total of $105,600 of Federal taxes
400k-you will pay $58,50 more for a total of $154,400 of Federal taxes

Want to pay off your med school loans faster by working like a madman out of residency and making 600k? Good for you, but you will keep less than half of it after state and miscellaneous taxes are added to the $252,600 you will give Sanders in federal taxes.

Based on the above, even the lowliest of pediatricians will see a massive tax hike under Sanders. It's not looking pretty.

@gro2001

I understand what you're saying in regards to some of this massive taxation resulting in additional services from which physicians will theoretically benefit. But mathematically speaking, doctors are in the top 2% of earners, so they will suffer a huge net loss in any redistributive scheme.

Even with single payer, just look at the situation in the UK and Canada. Chances are, unless doctors are left completely destitute, they will be partaking of medical care outside the underfunded, oversubscribed government system. So they will shoulder the costs of single payer while paying extra to receive better quality care outside of it on top.

 

[doggydog]

None of the analysts think that Bernie has any shot of winning. What are you worried about?

 

[filhodeinferno]

I decided to post this here because firstly, the EM forum has some of the finest discussions on financial planning on SDN and secondly, because I'm 60-80% leaning towards going into EM.

At any rate, with some recent Sanders victories, the idea of the communist getting in the white house is no longer completely out of the question. Furthermore, now that Trump's campaign is imploding and a contested convention is looking more and more likely, we could see a downright meltdowm on the Republican side in the general and the democrats may gain control of both houses of Congress in addition to the presidency.

Are you guys worried? On the surface, the Sanders tax plan sounds like the stuff of a physician's nightmares. It eschews going after the machinations the really rich use to get richer in favor of taking a sledge hammer to W2 wages and other earned income for anyone in the middle class and above, with a particular emphasis on those making 200k+. In particular, Sander's plan to completely remove the cap on SS payroll tax is going to hurt real, real bad. Any thoughts?

[Of course, under Sanders single payer all private insurance would disappear in favor of 100% medicare, and medicare would pay 10% less than today, so that represents like a 50-60% cut in physician take home pay. But for craps and giggles let's assume we're only talking about the tax proposal, not his single payer armageddon.]

Bern isn't going to win, but I would definitely share your concern if he does. We'd lose from both an income and taxation standpoint, like you pointed out. The govt doesn't care whether you made your money off of an inheritance from your daddy or whether you sold the best years of your life to work 80 hours a week to help out your fellow man.

 

[gman33]

I have a hard time thinking these policies will pass even if sanders gets elected.
Besides voting there is not a ton I can do currently, so I'm not going to worry about it.

 

[southerndoc]

There is no way Sanders will get his plans passed. Even most Democrats aren't as left-wing as he is. Remember, a president doesn't pass law -- he only signs it. So in order for there to be a single payer type system, it would require both the Senate and House (both currently Republican controlled) to pass legislation for him to sign.

I'm hoping Sanders and Trump run against each other. If so, then Bloomberg is going to run as an independent. He is the best candidate for POTUS by far.

 

[HoosierdaddyO]

There is no way Sanders will get his plans passed. Even most Democrats aren't as left-wing as he is. Remember, a president doesn't pass law -- he only signs it. So in order for there to be a single payer type system, it would require both the Senate and House (both currently Republican controlled) to pass legislation for him to sign.

I'm hoping Sanders and Trump run against each other. If so, then Bloomberg is going to run as an independent. He is the best candidate for POTUS by far.

I hope Bloomberg runs...he will screw the dems more than the republicans (with his big brother, anti nra approach to things). But it's a non issue, he already stated that he won't run as a third party candidate

 

[DokterMom]

Aside from the fact that the chance of it happening is miniscule...

There is the impact of taxes on us individually and on society as a whole. I try to keep both viewpoints in mind and often find myself voting to raise my own taxes. I'm fortunate to be able to afford to and most of you here will be also. It would be nice if student loan interest were deductible though as higher education certainly furthers the public good --

The better tax plan IMO, would be to go after capital gains taxes and narrowly-crafted exclusions for certain types of investment income gifted to some of the investment-banker types. Ordinary earned income is not where the super-rich get their money...

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

If Sanders doesn't get elected then of course all this is a moot point (I hope). However, the only thing currently standing between Sanders and the White House is Hillary. Let's say Sanders gets the nomination, which while less than probable, could very well happen. None of the analysts predicted him to get this far, after all.

The Republicans are a mess. Let's say Trump is denied the nomination through scheming at a contested convention and a significant fraction of his supporters stay home in November in protest. You could well have Sanders ride it home in an absolute blowout, taking the House and Senate in his wake since so many Trump supporters stayed home.

Is it really so unlikely, then, that Sanders could overcome opposition to his tax and single payer plans? Congress indeed writes the laws, but it is the President who sets the agenda, especially a victorious President who led his party back to control of Congress. I'm sure he'd also argue, with support of the media, that the election gave him a mandate-the people knew where he stood on single payer and taxes, and elected him. One also has to be skeptical of the institutional resistance to single payer within the democratic party, or even the larger overall political establishment. There were a lot of voices after Obamacare passed who argued that the only point of Obamacare was to muck things up so badly as to pave a way for Single Payer. And here we are, a few years later, with Single Payer touting Bernie Sanders separated from the White House only by a decrepit Hillary Clinton....

It could happen.

 

[Birdstrike]

The Sanders Tax Plan...the end of physician life as we know it?

You nailed it in the thread title and didn't really need to say anymore, EXCEPT for the typo. I fixed it for you...

The Sanders Tax Plan...the end of LIFE as we know it

 

[deltamed]

Taxing earned income at ridiculous rates is idiotic. I earn 450k now and my marginal dollar is taxed at 35% then bernie raises it to 55% guess what- I'm going to work less. I can afford it and I'm not going to have them take over half of what I earn. I agree that the super rich shouldnt pay a lower percentage via loopholes and passive income streams, but that only happens at the top 0.1% not for physicians.


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[The White Coat Investor]

Sometimes people forget that the president only controls 1/3 of the government, and even that is only the federal government. A great deal of government power is still reserved to the states. If you don't believe me, I'll show you how PPACA hasn't yet been implemented in my state as the state voted against Medicaid expansion.

As far as higher taxes, the worst thing that could happen to me would be to eliminate the cap on SS taxes. But if that came with a higher SS benefit, even that wouldn't be the end of the world. Another $12.2K of every $100K I make would be a huge tax increase.

But if taxes go up, I'll learn the new rules and play accordingly. I'll always be better off than someone who doesn't know the rules.

 

[gman33]

I don't agree with the concept of tax as a percentage of income. The rich pay way more than their share under the current system. No need to increase that further. How about cutting spending?

 

[airball]

with some recent Sanders victories, the idea of the communist getting in the white house

lol yeah and how do you define communism? Any democratic candidate? The thing I hate most about political talk is how stupid people are when it comes to the party they do not support. Stop watching Fox News.

the democrats may gain control of both houses of Congress in addition to the presidency.

Good, might get something done. What I'm actually worried about is that there are people in real life who support these jesters that are being presented as "serious" candidates from the republican side. Let's not forget that the very same policies that Trump has been selling and advocating (alienating Muslims, bashing Mexicans and other illegals, turning our backs to refugees that we helped displace, attacking access to women's health, etc) are shared by the other potential candidates albeit under a more veiled rhetoric. John Kasich is at least a respectable human being but still has deplorable ideas.

Wasn't there some study that found happiness doesn't increase after you make 75k? Food for thought

 

[Angry Birds]

We really should have an "ER lounge room" sub-forum.

On that note, I just did my taxes. Glad to get that over.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

Wasn't there some study that found happiness doesn't increase after you make 75k? Food for thought

I was going to respond, but this part made me realize Don't Feed the Troll is the word.

 

[da8s0859q]

Wasn't there some study that found happiness doesn't increase after you make 75k? Food for thought

Yes, there was, and no, it isn't. You're missing the point, or you're trolling. Either way.

 

[airball]

I was going to respond, but this part made me realize Don't Feed the Troll is the word.

Yes, there was, and no, it isn't. You're missing the point, or you're trolling. Either way.

I wasn't intending to troll but my overall point is that there are way more important things on the line in this election than what tax bracket you fall in.

Anyways, this looks to be the study just so you all don't think I was just randomly throwing crap out there http://www.pnas.org/content/107/38/16489.full

 

[da8s0859q]

I wasn't intending to troll but my overall point is that there are way more important things on the line in this election than what tax bracket you fall in.

Anyways, this looks to be the study just so you all don't think I was just randomly throwing crap out there http://www.pnas.org/content/107/38/16489.full

I don't disagree that there are other issues at stake, but when the time comes that you're looking at falling into one of these higher tax brackets, you will have a different opinion on the matter. And that's coming from someone who starts his first attending job in a few months, not to mention people who have been out and dealing in these numbers for years.

 

[gman33]

Taxes aren't the only issue, but they are related to many of the other issues.
Paying another $30-40k a year in taxes wouldn't be the end of the world, but I have no desire to do this to fund programs that would have no benefit for me personally.

Yearly this might not impact my happiness, but working for another 5-10 years to fund my retirement wouldn't be loads of fun.

 

[Angry Birds]

I wasn't intending to troll but my overall point is that there are way more important things on the line in this election than what tax bracket you fall in.

Anyways, this looks to be the study just so you all don't think I was just randomly throwing crap out there http://www.pnas.org/content/107/38/16489.full

I'm a Green Party supporter, and very liberal in views. I find Donald Trump's rhetoric to be deplorable (as is Ted Cruz's)... In fact, I think the Republican Party is absolutely nuts.

On the other hand, it is hard to argue that "there are way more important things on the line in this election than what tax bracket you fall in." While this might certainly be true on a national level, to the individual person--what could be more relevant than their livelihood?

And, despite how liberal I am, I think physicians deserve the salary they have (or even higher to compensate for student loans). I think it is commensurate to the long years of education and training, as well as ability and intelligence. I have friends in the tech world, of equal ability and intelligence as me, and I will say that even though I now finally earn more than them (probably?), my net worth is far less than them, and I am still not positive net worth. So, when someone says to me that they think my salary is too high--or wants to threaten that--then you can understand why this is frustrating to the nth degree.

 

[Fox800]

Wasn't there some study that found happiness doesn't increase after you make 75k? Food for thought

Feel free to move to the UK and work for the NHS if you're okay working full time as a new attending...I mean "consultant" and making $75K USD after taxes.

 

[MamaPsalmist]

communism =/= socialism

It's pretty common to afraid of things you don't understand. Knowledge is power!

 

[Angry Birds]

EDIT: Never mind.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

On the other hand, it is hard to argue that "there are way more important things on the line in this election than what tax bracket you fall in." While this might certainly be true on a national level, to the individual person--what could be more relevant than their livelihood?

And, despite how liberal I am, I think physicians deserve the salary they have (or even higher to compensate for student loans)..........So, when someone says to me that they think my salary is too high--or wants to threaten that--then you can understand why this is frustrating to the nth degree.

Funny, that's exactly how I feel (aside from being extremely liberal) and this is the precise line of reasoning that leads me to be firmly in the immigration restrictionist Trump camp. Unlike current attendings, I am still years and years away from earning my first real paycheck. Even under the status quo for physician salaries and taxation, I am likely at least 10 years away from being in the filthy rich "zero net worth" category, and at least 20 years away from being anywhere close to financially “set.” For me, long term socio-political trends matter not in the abstract, but in the personal,as they will directly affect my paycheck when I finally start earning one.

More immigration leads to more demand for government services, since most of the 2m immigrants the US accepts each year are low skilled, low wage workers who often have large families and who don't earn enough to pay any income tax, let alone net income tax. When they or their children get citizenship, they also (quite reasonably) tend to vote for higher government spending and higher taxes, since they benefit from them. These demographic forces have already massively changed the political landscape in this country, and they are likely to change it even more massively in the ensuing decade.

To make a long story short, mass immigration and my future paycheck as a physician are mutually antagonistic. So I'm a Trump supporter. Plain and simple. There is no racism or “inbred” stupidity behind my support for Trump. I just want to keep some of the money I worked long and hard for. I'd wager this is the primary motivating factor behind most people's support of Trump, not just mine. I don't care how many bombastic statements he makes or inappropriate pictures he tweets, so long as he ensures I didn't spend the best years of my life to become a debt slave for perpetuity.

 

[deltamed]

Funny, that's exactly how I feel (aside from being extremely liberal) and this is the precise line of reasoning that leads me to be firmly in the immigration restrictionist Trump camp. Unlike current attendings, I am still years and years away from earning my first real paycheck. Even under the status quo for physician salaries and taxation, I am likely at least 10 years away from being in the filthy rich "zero net worth" category, and at least 20 years away from being anywhere close to financially “set.” For me, long term socio-political trends matter not in the abstract, but in the personal,as they will directly affect my paycheck when I finally start earning one.

More immigration leads to more demand for government services, since most of the 2m immigrants the US accepts each year are low skilled, low wage workers who often have large families and who don't earn enough to pay any income tax, let alone net income tax. When they or their children get citizenship, they also (quite reasonably) tend to vote for higher government spending and higher taxes, since they benefit from them. These demographic forces have already massively changed the political landscape in this country, and they are likely to change it even more massively in the ensuing decade.

To make a long story short, mass immigration and my future paycheck as a physician are mutually antagonistic. So I'm a Trump supporter. Plain and simple. There is no racism or “inbred” stupidity behind my support for Trump. I just want to keep some of the money I worked long and hard for. I'd wager this is the primary motivating factor behind most people's support of Trump, not just mine. I don't care how many bombastic statements he makes or inappropriate pictures he tweets, so long as he ensures I didn't spend the best years of my life to become a debt slave for perpetuity.

I understand you dont care about his bombastic or racist statements but where do you draw the line? Will you still support him if he says he'll start putting illegal immigrants in concentration camps before deportation? What if he says he will require all muslims citizens to wear a identifying mark for the police? Its not too far from what he's said already....

Its a shame, because I'm 100% with the republicans fiscally and usually vote that way because of that but they are falling apart. I'd probably even vote for cruz over hillary (even though i dont like him) but not trump.


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[RustedFox]

I wasn't intending to troll but my overall point is that there are way more important things on the line in this election than what tax bracket you fall in.

Anyways, this looks to be the study just so you all don't think I was just randomly throwing crap out there http://www.pnas.org/content/107/38/16489.full

I would be amazingly unhappy making 75k doing the maddening things that I do at work. Matter of fact, I'd quit outright and make more doing less risky things with no nights or weekends. This is old hat, though.

 

[emergentmd]

Sanders plan will never pass congress. They might throw him a bone so he will feel he accomplished something.

Do you think all of these millionaires in congress is going to increase their taxes? That is laughable.

Now if congress starts to be full of college grads or blue collar workers then I would be worried. But until then, they will never increase taxes substantially.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

I understand you dont care about his bombastic or racist statements but where do you draw the line? Will you still support him if he says he'll start putting illegal immigrants in concentration camps before deportation? What if he says he will require all muslims citizens to wear a identifying mark for the police? Its not too far from what he's said already....

Its a shame, because I'm 100% with the republicans fiscally and usually vote that way because of that but they are falling apart. I'd probably even vote for cruz over hillary (even though i dont like him) but not trump.


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Trump has an unfortunate way of speaking that makes the substance of what he says sound much worse than it is. Take his proposed Muslim ban. Aside from frankly insane Western European countries, his stance on Muslim immigration would just mirror what the entire rest of the world already quietly does as a matter of course. How many Muslim immigrants does Japan take in each year? Or South Korea, or (laugh) Saudi Arabia? These countries do not see immigration as in their national interest, and being sovereign nations, act in accordance with that perceived interest. America has no responsibility to be any less sovereign than the rest of the world's sovereign states.

In my point of view, we should have a moratorium on all immigration, not just Muslim immigration. The real unemployment rate (the labor force un-participation rate, lol) is at historic highs, wages have not grown in decades, so what need is there to throw more bodies at the few jobs we do have? It is certainly not in the best interest of current Americans to bring in ever more people. So while it sounds ugly to particularly single out people from certain war and terrorism affected regions for the security issues they may pose, it at the very least makes economic sense. There is nothing cruel or unusual in a country telling foreigners they cannot come: that is the entire point of having a country. No one has a right to come, unless they are citizens.

 

[Angry Birds]

Funny, that's exactly how I feel (aside from being extremely liberal) and this is the precise line of reasoning that leads me to be firmly in the immigration restrictionist Trump camp. Unlike current attendings, I am still years and years away from earning my first real paycheck. Even under the status quo for physician salaries and taxation, I am likely at least 10 years away from being in the filthy rich "zero net worth" category, and at least 20 years away from being anywhere close to financially “set.” For me, long term socio-political trends matter not in the abstract, but in the personal,as they will directly affect my paycheck when I finally start earning one.

More immigration leads to more demand for government services, since most of the 2m immigrants the US accepts each year are low skilled, low wage workers who often have large families and who don't earn enough to pay any income tax, let alone net income tax. When they or their children get citizenship, they also (quite reasonably) tend to vote for higher government spending and higher taxes, since they benefit from them. These demographic forces have already massively changed the political landscape in this country, and they are likely to change it even more massively in the ensuing decade.

To make a long story short, mass immigration and my future paycheck as a physician are mutually antagonistic. So I'm a Trump supporter. Plain and simple. There is no racism or “inbred” stupidity behind my support for Trump. I just want to keep some of the money I worked long and hard for. I'd wager this is the primary motivating factor behind most people's support of Trump, not just mine. I don't care how many bombastic statements he makes or inappropriate pictures he tweets, so long as he ensures I didn't spend the best years of my life to become a debt slave for perpetuity.

Just to clarify, I have no significant similarity to you, and want nothing to do with you whatsoever.

You're like the people who supported Hitler or Mussolini for their economic policies. People often have their own personal reasons to vote for demagogues.

Also, you are almost certainly an implicit racist, judging by your posts above. Let me guess: you're probably white, and definitely not Mexican or Muslim.

 

[Angry Birds]

Trump has an unfortunate way of speaking that makes the substance of what he says sound much worse than it is. Take his proposed Muslim ban. Aside from frankly insane Western European countries, his stance on Muslim immigration would just mirror what the entire rest of the world already quietly does as a matter of course. How many Muslim immigrants does Japan take in each year? Or South Korea, or (laugh) Saudi Arabia? These countries do not see immigration as in their national interest, and being sovereign nations, act in accordance with that perceived interest. America has no responsibility to be any less sovereign than the rest of the world's sovereign states.

The fact that you are a right-wing nut job can be gleaned by your use of phony "facts." The idea that Japan blocks Muslim immigration/residency/etc. has been very popular amongst nutty right wing sites (including on the nutty Alex Jones website), which is where you probably gets this erroneous idea from.

However, it's simply not true. See Snopes and Politifact, the latter of which called it a lie and gave it a rating of "pants on fire."

Your statement on South Korea is also incorrect. The Muslim population in South Korea has increased by leaps and bounds in the last couple decades.

It is, in fact, the pursuit of "national interest" that most threatens American safety and security. Foreign military and covert interventions are in fact what causes the United States to be targeted. The idea that closing immigration--Muslim, Mexican, etc.--is going to keep you safer is not only just completely erroneous, but it is also the very definition of xenophobia.

Anyways, just think about how your entire anti-immigration stance is based on complete 100% phooey. It is neither true for Japan or South Korea, the two examples you gave. But, keep on justifying your myopic, parochial viewpoints...and keep on justifying a demagogue.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

No need to clarify anything, I never said we were similar, just that I place similar emphasis on the paycheck as you do. So you're safe.

I'm neither white nor Mexican nor Muslim. What difference does it make what my skin color is? You seem to place a lot of emphasis on race for someone who professes to be a paragon of liberal virtue.

Also, are you implying that the nations of Japan, South Korea, and Saudi Arabia are all filled with a bunch of bigoted racists because their immigration policies would make even someone like Trump blush?

P.S.
Don't worry, I'm not expecting you to reply and disprove any of this stuff. Feel free to continue with the personal attacks. File it under "liberal privilege."

 

[Angry Birds]

Also, are you implying that the nations of Japan, South Korea, and Saudi Arabia are all filled with a bunch of bigoted racists because their immigration policies would make even someone like Trump blush?

Look at my second post, which completely rebuts this completely fallacious point of yours.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

In regards to immigration in Japan, less than 1.5% of that country's population is foreign born, and a very big chunk of that are not immigrants but temporary workers or expats who are not staying in the country permanently. Japan has been among the world's most prosperous nations for decades now, so it's not an issue of it failing to attract immigrants but of it refusing to accept very many. When it comes to their immigration policy, the proof is in the pudding. Not going to bother to look up the rest of the world's 200+ countries, I think you get the point.

And just to clarify, I never suggested these countries have special laws targeted explicitly against Muslims. That would be stupid. They simply eschew all mass immigration. That is the policy that I myself favor as well, as I clearly stated in the post you took issue with. I am in favor a moratorium on all immigration, not Muslim immigration in particular. And yes, this includes Europe.

 

[Kazaki]

IMG here. Referring to Sanders as a communist just shows how much capitalism has corrupted the minds of the American public.
Honestly, worrying about money as a physician in the US is pointless. The median income of an American household is about 50k (53k to be exact), so making 4x the median as a family doctor or an internist isn't really a loss, but I guess it'll increase the time spent to repay student loans.
No matter what residency you end up doing, you're going to live a comfortable life, with a mortgage on a nice house, a car or two, and 1.4 kids to take care of. Sure, not all of us are going to live in a huge mansion on the beach with a Maserati parked out front like a plastic surgeon or a busy orthopod, but as a doctor, you won't be struggling to put food on the table for your family as is the case with a huge chunk of American households, nor will you have to live frugally once you finish residency, nor will you struggle to enjoy whatever free time you have playing golf or travelling, and you most certainly won't end up living on social security once you retire, and if you play your card rights, you can end up retiring before 60 with a healthy sum of moola.
At the end of the day I'm just an IMG and I maybe missing out on something that I'm not aware of.

 

[hoot504]

Glad to see Godwin's law is in full effect here on the EM boards.

Right or wrong, what emergentmd said above is correct. Even in the unlikely event of a Sanders' presidency, taxes would be very unlikely to change significantly unless very specific circumstances were met.

As it stands anyway, a Clinton presidency is all but assured at this point.

 

[Angry Birds]

In regards to immigration in Japan, less than 1.5% of that country's population is foreign born, and a very big chunk of that are not immigrants but temporary workers or expats who are not staying in the country permanently. Japan has been among the world's most prosperous nations for decades now, so it's not an issue of it failing to attract immigrants but of it refusing to accept very many. When it comes to their immigration policy, the proof is in the pudding. Not going to bother to look up the rest of the world's 200+ countries, I think you get the point.

Umm, sorry to burst your bubble again, but Japan is facing a well-known crisis due to a shrinking and aging population, which has caused a labor shortage and a shrinking economy. Experts both within and outside the country have argued for a change in the immigration policy, with the view that immigrants can actually save the country from economic crisis.

But, continue to tout your xenophobic ideology, devoid of facts.

 

[Angry Birds]

Glad to see Godwin's law is in full effect here on the EM boards.

Glenn Greenwald's excellent piece on that:
http://www.salon.com/2010/07/01/godwin/

As Godwin himself commented there:

Godwin himself appears in comments (authenticity confirmed via email) to explain that his “law” sought to discourage frivolous, but not substantive, Nazi analogies and comparisons.

I don't ever draw "Nazi comparisons" frivolously or easily, but comparing Trump to fascist leaders of the past is very appropriate. This is exactly the time to draw such comparisons.

EDIT:

Godwin himself on Trump comparisons:

Sure, call Trump a Nazi. Just make sure you know what you’re talking about.

The inventor of "Godwin's Law" about Hitler comparisons on the Internet says they're not always inappropriate.

...

The best way to prevent future holocausts, I believe, is not to forbear from Holocaust comparisons; instead, it’s to make sure that those comparisons are meaningful and substantive. This is something a pleasantly surprising percentage of commentators in this political season have managed to do (like this piece on Trump by New America and CNN analyst Peter Bergen).​

 

[hoot504]

Umm, sorry to burst your bubble again, but Japan is facing a well-known crisis due to a shrinking and aging population, which has caused a labor shortage and a shrinking economy. Experts both within and outside the country have argued for a change in the immigration policy, with the view that immigrants can actually save the country from economic crisis.

But, continue to tout your xenophobic ideology, devoid of facts.

Not to pile on Brahnold but Angry birds has your nuts in a vice here.

Japan's economy has stagnated for decades, so much so that they've coined a term for it. Ever heard of the lost decade(s)? Google it

 

[RustedFox]

IMG here. Referring to Sanders as a communist just shows how much capitalism has corrupted the minds of the American public.
Honestly, worrying about money as a physician in the US is pointless. The median income of an American household is about 50k (53k to be exact), so making 4x the median as a family doctor or an internist isn't really a loss, but I guess it'll increase the time spent to repay student loans.
No matter what residency you end up doing, you're going to live a comfortable life, with a mortgage on a nice house, a car or two, and 1.4 kids to take care of. Sure, not all of us are going to live in a huge mansion on the beach with a Maserati parked out front like a plastic surgeon or a busy orthopod, but as a doctor, you won't be struggling to put food on the table for your family as is the case with a huge chunk of American households, nor will you have to live frugally once you finish residency, nor will you struggle to enjoy whatever free time you have playing golf or travelling, and you most certainly won't end up living on social security once you retire, and if you play your card rights, you can end up retiring before 60 with a healthy some of moola.
At the end of the day I'm just an IMG and I maybe missing out on something that I'm not aware of.

The bit that you're missing out on (and this has nothing to do with your IMG status), is that its immoral to legislate the right of someone else to the money that you earned. Want to make more money? Good, work more. Want to make more money and give it away because somebody else said you "had to"? - Doesn't (and shouldn't) work that way. I busted my @ss to enjoy the money that I earn and the life that I live. I don't "owe" it to anyone else because they "can't have the same things".

To quote Veers (and I love saying this to people when "politics" breaks out at the pub): "The government is not the fairness nanny."

If I want to give my money away to a charitable organization; I can do that... but I will not be mandated to do that.

I'm also willing to bet (regarding the Japan/Korea argument) that you can line up Japanese experts to say publicly "there's no such policy"... but if you look hard enough at the numbers, there's a tacit understanding that "those that fit a certain profile... just won't get their visas/citizenship/etc approved". I remember a story that broke some years back about some Japanese politican who was ostracized internationally (but interestingly, not domestically) for saying something to the tune of "shoot the dogs" when asked what to do about the Korean immigrant "problem". Try immigrating to a number of western nations with no job skills, no cash in-hand, and no clear plans to do much of anything. You can't show up on the doorstep of the Swiss and just say; "hey, I'd like to put my feet up here, take advantage of your social welfare systems, not contribute a lick, bring some criminal element or background with me, and just chill"... its not happening. You're going to find yourself quickly turned around. Yet, that is precisely what some people clamor that we "should" do here in the US because "its the right thing to do"... so long as its with someone else's hard-earned money.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

Umm, sorry to burst your bubble again, but Japan is facing a well-known crisis due to a shrinking and aging population, which has caused a labor shortage and a shrinking economy. Experts both within and outside the country have argued for a change in the immigration policy, with the view that immigrants can actually save the country from economic crisis.

But, continue to tout your xenophobic ideology, devoid of facts.

Come on man, I didn't bring up Japan in order to argue the economic benefits of immigration restriction, but to put Trump's hard line on immigration in context of the world norm. People are saying being hard line on immigration is something racist white bigots do, so I brought up the case of Japan and a few other countries that are not typically thought of as being full of racist white bigots, yet which nevertheless have hard line immigration policies. Now the goal posts are being moved.

So to clarify, yet again: I am not saying immigration restriction is the best policy for Japan. This thread isn't about that. I am saying it is the best policy for my paycheck. I only brought up Japan to refute the idea that having national borders is something only Trump's "racist" supporters approve of.

And, lol, to be sure, you are now backtracking on your own assertion. You were first trying to prove that I was wrong about Japan being tough on immigration, but now you're bringing up "experts" who are arguing how bad being tough on immigration is for Japan's economy! So which is it finally, is Japan tough on immigration, or isn't it? And if it is tough on immigration, despite such a stance being bad for its economy, does it mean that Japanese people are a bunch of racist white bigots?

 

[Angry Birds]

Come on man, I didn't bring up Japan in order to argue the economic benefits of immigration restriction, but to put Trump's hard line on immigration in context of the world norm. People are saying being hard line on immigration is something racist white bigots do, so I brought up the case of Japan and a few other countries that are not typically thought of as being full of racist white bigots, yet which nevertheless have hard line immigration policies.

...

? And if it is tough on immigration, despite such a stance being bad for its economy, does it mean that Japanese people are a bunch of racist white bigots?

You are so clueless, it's not even funny:

Japan Times: Tackle embedded racism before it chokes Japan

Newsweek: JAPAN'S PROBLEM WITH RACE

The Japanese immigration policy is closely tied to xenophobia/racism/discrimination. This is well-known, but you can read the articles above, since you don't seem to know much.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

You got me, man. Looks like the world is full of racists. Seems like just about every country outside of Europe and the Anglosphere are a bunch of filthy racists, in fact, because Japan is the world's norm when it comes to immigration policy.

Well, except the South Africans. They are worse than the Japanese, they actually form mobs and beat immigrants bloody.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/20/africa/south-africa-anti-foreigner-attacks/

Or look at Mexico's treatment of Central American children. They should be made to pay for the Wall just for that if for nothing else!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/12/mexico-deporting-central-america_n_7571174.html


So hey, Trump is looking pretty darn reasonable all of a sudden compared to all those racist foreigners, isn't he?

And to think that was the only point I was trying to make this whole time. Sigh.

 

[Angry Birds]

You got me, man. Looks like the world is full of racists. Seems like just about every country outside of Europe and the Anglosphere are a bunch of filthy racists, in fact, because Japan is the world's norm when it comes to immigration policy.

Well, except the South Africans. They are worse than the Japanese, they actually form mobs and beat immigrants bloody.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/20/africa/south-africa-anti-foreigner-attacks/

Or look at Mexico's treatment of Central American children. They should be made to pay for the Wall just for that if for nothing else!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/12/mexico-deporting-central-america_n_7571174.html


So hey, Trump is looking pretty darn reasonable all of a sudden compared to all those racist foreigners, isn't he?

And to think that was the only point I was trying to make this whole time. Sigh.

You're on the ropes, my friend.

I never said that the Japanese are racist. Rather, racism/discrimination/xenophobia is a major problem in the world, including in Japan. To deny that is absurd. (This is not the same as saying "all Japanese are racist" or "Japan is full of racists.")

And, for clarification, I would never say that racism is not a problem in Europe or the Anglosphere. Exhibit A: Donald Trump.

But, in any case, you are now down to a standard tu quoque fallacy: everyone else is racist, so it's OK if we're racist too.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

All right man, you win. I'm not going to make this my Custer's Last Stand on the EM forum. Consider your immigration policy victorious in this mighty struggle. Now we can go back to talking about the threat of Sanders' tax policy.

Peace.

 

[filhodeinferno]

lol yeah and how do you define communism? Any democratic candidate? The thing I hate most about political talk is how stupid people are when it comes to the party they do not support. Stop watching Fox News.


Wasn't there some study that found happiness doesn't increase after you make 75k? Food for thought

Spoken like a true "we make too much money anyway as doctors" medical student. Start wading through the dregs of residency and you'll start to see why you deserve far more than 75K/year.

Funny, that's exactly how I feel (aside from being extremely liberal) and this is the precise line of reasoning that leads me to be firmly in the immigration restrictionist Trump camp. Unlike current attendings, I am still years and years away from earning my first real paycheck. Even under the status quo for physician salaries and taxation, I am likely at least 10 years away from being in the filthy rich "zero net worth" category, and at least 20 years away from being anywhere close to financially “set.” For me, long term socio-political trends matter not in the abstract, but in the personal,as they will directly affect my paycheck when I finally start earning one.

More immigration leads to more demand for government services, since most of the 2m immigrants the US accepts each year are low skilled, low wage workers who often have large families and who don't earn enough to pay any income tax, let alone net income tax. When they or their children get citizenship, they also (quite reasonably) tend to vote for higher government spending and higher taxes, since they benefit from them. These demographic forces have already massively changed the political landscape in this country, and they are likely to change it even more massively in the ensuing decade.

To make a long story short, mass immigration and my future paycheck as a physician are mutually antagonistic. So I'm a Trump supporter. Plain and simple. There is no racism or “inbred” stupidity behind my support for Trump. I just want to keep some of the money I worked long and hard for. I'd wager this is the primary motivating factor behind most people's support of Trump, not just mine. I don't care how many bombastic statements he makes or inappropriate pictures he tweets, so long as he ensures I didn't spend the best years of my life to become a debt slave for perpetuity.

I'm not exactly a Trump supporter or anti-immigrant, but your point on not wanting to be forced to care for and treat thousands of new immigrants for free as an ER doctor is an interesting one that I hadn't considered.

 

[Angry Birds]

All right man, you win. I'm not going to make this my Custer's Last Stand on the EM forum. Consider your immigration policy victorious in this mighty struggle. Now we can go back to talking about the threat of Sanders' tax policy.

Peace.

Big of you. Respect.