The self deprecating attitude and culture in medicine is awful

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MedicineZ0Z

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All MS3s are by default idiots who don't know how to tie their shoes and interns are useless and nurses protect patients from them.

^^ This is the mentality that circulates in healthcare essentially but it's mostly led by doctors/residents/med students themselves. No other profession has such an intense self deprecating attitude when it comes to knowing how to do your job as medicine. Nursing, dentistry, PT, any other healthcare profession? Not even remotely close. Polar opposite if anything. NPs on day 1 have the confidence of a veteran attending. RNs in their first month will be critical of patient plans. Dunning kruger? Absolutely.

But that doesn't mean we need to walk around like we don't know anything.

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All MS3s are by default idiots who don't know how to tie their shoes and interns are useless and nurses protect patients from them.

^^ This is the mentality that circulates in healthcare essentially but it's mostly led by doctors/residents/med students themselves. No other profession has such an intense self deprecating attitude when it comes to knowing how to do your job as medicine. Nursing, dentistry, PT, any other healthcare profession? Not even remotely close. Polar opposite if anything. NPs on day 1 have the confidence of a veteran attending. RNs in their first month will be critical of patient plans. Dunning kruger? Absolutely.

But that doesn't mean we need to walk around like we don't know anything.
you know i think it maybe also depends on the age. I am just an M2, but i am much older, and whenever i shadow, i am helpful. But i was a medical technician in the military before, so maybe i am just a bit more comfortable? BUt i do think age makes a difference.
 
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I agree confidence is important. What's even more critical is for physicians and trainees to lobby and protect our interests rather than firing and sabotaging each other for caring about patient safety. Somehow the culture of medicine is more interested in self sabotage and specialty bashing than collaboratively promoting our interests.
 
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The problem is that medical students have a lot of training and education, and they use that knowledge to make fun of NPs, RNs, PAs and others that don't have as much say that they are susceptible to the Dunning Kruger effect, except you are ignoring that you are also susceptible to it and are somehow unaware of all of that. And every single one of us goes through this.

In the realm of useful clinical knowledge, M3s really are in the same realm of "learning to tie your shoes." and interns are very new and often make mistakes, many of which nurses have seen before in the mistakes of previous interns. And they utilize this experience to prevent mistakes.

So I appreciate the medical students who walk around pretending like they are completely useless in regards to medical knowledge because it shows insight. I am halfway through a 3 year fellowship after a 3 year residency and med students often try to explain stuff to me in a way showing they don't actually understand what they are saying. And portraying this lack of knowledge shows others that you know you aren't the most knowledgeable so you are willing to learn.

I once overheard an attending say to a medical student, "just stop, there is nothing that you can teach me." At the time, I thought the attending was an a-hole. While I believe everyone can learn something from everyone else, I get it. And I was there. I am not above this argument.
 
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The problem is that medical students have a lot of training and education, and they use that knowledge to make fun of NPs, RNs, PAs and others that don't have as much say that they are susceptible to the Dunning Kruger effect, except you are ignoring that you are also susceptible to it and are somehow unaware of all of that. And every single one of us goes through this.

In the realm of useful clinical knowledge, M3s really are in the same realm of "learning to tie your shoes." and interns are very new and often make mistakes, many of which nurses have seen before in the mistakes of previous interns. And they utilize this experience to prevent mistakes.

So I appreciate the medical students who walk around pretending like they are completely useless in regards to medical knowledge because it shows insight. I am halfway through a 3 year fellowship after a 3 year residency and med students often try to explain stuff to me in a way showing they don't actually understand what they are saying. And portraying this lack of knowledge shows others that you know you aren't the most knowledgeable so you are willing to learn.

I once overheard an attending say to a medical student, "just stop, there is nothing that you can teach me." At the time, I thought the attending was an a-hole. While I believe everyone can learn something from everyone else, I get it. And I was there. I am not above this argument.

Perfect example of being completely incorrect.

There's a significant difference between treating a medical student like an adult who's learning on the job who has all kinds of life experience (even on some occasions more than an attending) than treating them like a three year old, brandishing your superiority and intellect without any actual meaningful input. And saying a medical student has nothing to teach you is 100% being a douche bag and I bet your residents and students could not care less about being around you.

The attendings I've respected the most throughout my training are the ones that can say they don't know.
 
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Perfect example of being completely incorrect.

There's a significant difference between treating a medical student or intern like a child than treating them like an adult who's learning on the job who has all kinds of life experience (even on some occasions more than an attending) than treating them like a three year old, brandishing your superiority and intellect without any actual meaningful input. And saying a medical student has nothing to teach you is 100% being a douche bag and I bet your residents and students could not care less about being around you.

The attendings I've respected the most throughout my training are the ones that can say they don't know.

I didn't say I agreed with him, I said I get it. I even said I didn't agree with it.
 
The problem is that medical students have a lot of training and education, and they use that knowledge to make fun of NPs, RNs, PAs and others that don't have as much say that they are susceptible to the Dunning Kruger effect, except you are ignoring that you are also susceptible to it and are somehow unaware of all of that. And every single one of us goes through this.

In the realm of useful clinical knowledge, M3s really are in the same realm of "learning to tie your shoes." and interns are very new and often make mistakes, many of which nurses have seen before in the mistakes of previous interns. And they utilize this experience to prevent mistakes.

So I appreciate the medical students who walk around pretending like they are completely useless in regards to medical knowledge because it shows insight. I am halfway through a 3 year fellowship after a 3 year residency and med students often try to explain stuff to me in a way showing they don't actually understand what they are saying. And portraying this lack of knowledge shows others that you know you aren't the most knowledgeable so you are willing to learn.

I once overheard an attending say to a medical student, "just stop, there is nothing that you can teach me." At the time, I thought the attending was an a-hole. While I believe everyone can learn something from everyone else, I get it. And I was there. I am not above this argument.
Confidence is different from arrogance. Criticizing arrogant students is justified. But insulting and talking down students who are trying to learn is not.
 
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Confidence is different from arrogance. Criticizing arrogant students is justified. But insulting and talking down students who are trying to learn is not.
well to be fair, the med student was definitely trying to blow away the attending with his knowledge and doing it by correcting the things they attending was saying. thought that was clearer in my original post
 
The problem is that medical students have a lot of training and education, and they use that knowledge to make fun of NPs, RNs, PAs and others that don't have as much say that they are susceptible to the Dunning Kruger effect, except you are ignoring that you are also susceptible to it and are somehow unaware of all of that. And every single one of us goes through this.

In the realm of useful clinical knowledge, M3s really are in the same realm of "learning to tie your shoes." and interns are very new and often make mistakes, many of which nurses have seen before in the mistakes of previous interns. And they utilize this experience to prevent mistakes.

So I appreciate the medical students who walk around pretending like they are completely useless in regards to medical knowledge because it shows insight. I am halfway through a 3 year fellowship after a 3 year residency and med students often try to explain stuff to me in a way showing they don't actually understand what they are saying. And portraying this lack of knowledge shows others that you know you aren't the most knowledgeable so you are willing to learn.

I once overheard an attending say to a medical student, "just stop, there is nothing that you can teach me." At the time, I thought the attending was an a-hole. While I believe everyone can learn something from everyone else, I get it. And I was there. I am not above this argument.
You just rambled a bunch of utter nonsense.
 
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Perfect example of being completely incorrect.

There's a significant difference between treating a medical student or intern like a child than treating them like an adult who's learning on the job who has all kinds of life experience (even on some occasions more than an attending) than treating them like a three year old, brandishing your superiority and intellect without any actual meaningful input. And saying a medical student has nothing to teach you is 100% being a douche bag and I bet your residents and students could not care less about being around you.

The attendings I've respected the most throughout my training are the ones that can say they don't know.
I think we're seeing a literal display of what my thread is about.
Doctors are their own worst enemies.
Oh i agree there.
Surely that response wasn't completely fabricated to justify the story.
 
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All MS3s are by default idiots who don't know how to tie their shoes and interns are useless and nurses protect patients from them.

^^ This is the mentality that circulates in healthcare essentially but it's mostly led by doctors/residents/med students themselves. No other profession has such an intense self deprecating attitude when it comes to knowing how to do your job as medicine. Nursing, dentistry, PT, any other healthcare profession? Not even remotely close. Polar opposite if anything. NPs on day 1 have the confidence of a veteran attending. RNs in their first month will be critical of patient plans. Dunning kruger? Absolutely.

But that doesn't mean we need to walk around like we don't know anything.
It helps if you dgaf, put your head down and do your work, care for your patients and be a decent human being. That way you're clearly not partaking in this nonsense. Being honest about what you know (and don't know) and willingness to learn cuts through most of the BS you've mentioned. Imagine this scenario:

Patient's IV is beeping all the time and you have no idea what to do. So you tell the nurse. She rolls her eyes, tells you how she's busier than you can even fathom, and huffs to walk over to the patient's room.

One could:
1. Leave, call that nurse a bit*h, stew, and feel dejected

or

2. Say "Can I tag along and see how you handle this so I can learn what to do/not do next time? That way, I can learn and you won't be bothered"

I'll say that these similar situations have happened countless times, and genuine honesty and candor aligns everyone with the main goal. This literally happened to me when I was a third-year, and, lemme tell you, that nurse was the one going out of her way to save me a cupcake after a party, teach me how to start an IV, and was grateful to have a medical student on the floor (even though I didn't know my a$$ from my elbow)

However, there does exist a proportion of med students who fit into this "useless" role (either willingly or unwillingly) because that seems to be "what's expected of them."
 
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I can see that the infantilization I've been experiencing will continue until attendinghood (and even beyond). So encouraging. All this calling trainees "baby doc" BS makes me want to do the worm to some rock music. Like, just cut that crap out. It's extremely weird and annoying.
 
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This reminds me of an old favorite little poem:


Dilemma
by David Budbill

I want to be
famous
so I can be
humble
about being
famous.

What good is my
humility
when I am
stuck
in this
obscurity?

I probably use a good bit of self deprecating humor with patients and staff. I want people to find me approachable and easy to work with and so far I haven’t found such humor to be a detriment. People respect me and I’m definitely the one they call on when the proverbial it hits the fan.

I do think we have to acknowledge the large chasm between physicians and everyone else as well as the poor behavior of many who came before us. We aren’t entering the healthcare environment with a clean slate; we have generations of physicians before us who created a certain perception of physicians. Sometimes a little humor goes a long way.

I do agree that we gain little by demeaning the knowledge and role of students. I make a point to have students call me by my first name and I tell them it’s because we are colleagues now and I expect them to act like it. I think medical students are vastly underutilized in the clinical setting. It got this way largely out of a desire to improve their education by not scutting them out to draw labs write notes, but it’s left them in this strange limbo that isn’t good either.

I am definitely a bit tougher on interns and junior residents simply because they have so much power to actually hurt people while still not quite having the experience to know when that’s about to happen. I find supervising trainees to be mildly terrifying! So I use a little humor to remind them not to do anything major without talking to someone more senior first.

Maybe this is the disconnect, that the nurses and midlevels enter the wards knowing little and everyone else thinking they know little too. Physicians walk in on July 1st with an MD and a lot of responsibility and a perception by nearly everyone that they’re already competent. I remember walking in a room for a post op check on July 1 and everyone sitting around the bed of this sick child got off their phones and stood up saying “gotta go the doctor is here.” I’m willing to bet that doesn’t happen for the various “providers” when they start. Maybe they need a little more ego boosting than we do.
 
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Valid point and I agree to that our field has become more self-deprecating than ideal.

I'll piggyback off of Operaman's post to say its intended purpose is to restore trust for how physicians of the past conducted themselves and encourage approachability. What's unfortunate is that when new M3s come in, all it takes for one who doesn't have their emotions (to realize DK effect, etc.) in check to fire back instinctively at another healthcare professional and they've fulfilled the cynical expectations other providers want to have about us. It's unfair really, but I that's one of the reasons we are paid the big bucks.

I am in total agreement that we need to teach confidence more as a component of professionalism. I had an attending who watched me present plans in front of a patient. I was professional, I think the patient found my uncertainty at times endearing, but when we got outside the room she told me I inspired no confidence in the patient and that that's a mandatory skill in medicine. It didn't seem important at the time given the culture you alluded to, but it really changed my practice for the better.
 
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You just rambled a bunch of utter nonsense.
Well I am going to have to completely disagree with you than. And I don't care if you disagree with me.

Every year of residency, I see a handful of medical students do something completely stupid that I couldn't believe is true. And every year, interns doing dangerous stuff that gets either done to patients or stopped by nurses. And if you think it isn't happening, you are either dangerous or not opening your eyes.

I don't know if you are claiming that people need to be more confident in their own knowledge, but early physicians thinking they got medicine locked down is dangerous. I learn new stuff every day that shows me how fluid and incredible medicine is and how little my knowledge base is. I don't know how many years past medical school until I start thinking, "ok I think I really grasp this" but I can say with certainty that the number isn't going to be five.

So yes, I would agree that we as physicians need to be more confident in portrayal of our knowledge to patients, but I respect the physicians and medical students that recognize how little they know. Physicians aren't gods that should baffle people with our brilliance. We may be, as a group, smarter than the average person, but that doesn't mean there aren't brilliant RNs and RTs. And I don't respect those physicians who act like they are the smartest ones in the room or smarter than everyone else.

If I had to choose someone who as you state is self-deprecating and has no problem saying I don't know, or even joking about it, versus someone with unearned confidence, I am going to take the first one every time.

And maybe I am completely misunderstanding what you are arguing.
 
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As an M3 I really feel like I don't know anything though. But I agree that I've learned the most and gained more confidence from residents/attendings who are kind, supportive, and willing to answer questions, unlike some of the condescending pricks I've been stuck with.
 
The thing is the medical students, residents, and especially physicians likely are the smartest person in the room (with room for outliers). We train longer, more intensely, and are subjected to more quality assurance measures at every step of the way. This is not to say we should be arrogant or not learn from those around us (there is certainly things to to learn from everyone), but it's extremely counterintuitive to downplay our own value (and is hurting us politically and public perception). You don't see nurses, RTs, SW, etc downplaying their own value or the value of their trainees (in fact they do just the opposite and it's working for them).
 
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It helps if you dgaf, put your head down and do your work, care for your patients and be a decent human being. That way you're clearly not partaking in this nonsense. Being honest about what you know (and don't know) and willingness to learn cuts through most of the BS you've mentioned. Imagine this scenario:

Patient's IV is beeping all the time and you have no idea what to do. So you tell the nurse. She rolls her eyes, tells you how she's busier than you can even fathom, and huffs to walk over to the patient's room.

One could:
1. Leave, call that nurse a bit*h, stew, and feel dejected

or

2. Say "Can I tag along and see how you handle this so I can learn what to do/not do next time? That way, I can learn and you won't be bothered"

I'll say that these similar situations have happened countless times, and genuine honesty and candor aligns everyone with the main goal. This literally happened to me when I was a third-year, and, lemme tell you, that nurse was the one going out of her way to save me a cupcake after a party, teach me how to start an IV, and was grateful to have a medical student on the floor (even though I didn't know my a$$ from my elbow)

However, there does exist a proportion of med students who fit into this "useless" role (either willingly or unwillingly) because that seems to be "what's expected of them."
Or med students can be treated like very highly educated professionals. How about that?
What the hell kind of schools and residency programs do you people attend?
Even in the good ones, this attitude is rampant. It's just there's a polite overtone to it.
 
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Well I am going to have to completely disagree with you than. And I don't care if you disagree with me.

Every year of residency, I see a handful of medical students do something completely stupid that I couldn't believe is true. And every year, interns doing dangerous stuff that gets either done to patients or stopped by nurses. And if you think it isn't happening, you are either dangerous or not opening your eyes.

I don't know if you are claiming that people need to be more confident in their own knowledge, but early physicians thinking they got medicine locked down is dangerous. I learn new stuff every day that shows me how fluid and incredible medicine is and how little my knowledge base is. I don't know how many years past medical school until I start thinking, "ok I think I really grasp this" but I can say with certainty that the number isn't going to be five.

So yes, I would agree that we as physicians need to be more confident in portrayal of our knowledge to patients, but I respect the physicians and medical students that recognize how little they know. Physicians aren't gods that should baffle people with our brilliance. We may be, as a group, smarter than the average person, but that doesn't mean there aren't brilliant RNs and RTs. And I don't respect those physicians who act like they are the smartest ones in the room or smarter than everyone else.

If I had to choose someone who as you state is self-deprecating and has no problem saying I don't know, or even joking about it, versus someone with unearned confidence, I am going to take the first one every time.

And maybe I am completely misunderstanding what you are arguing.
This is about attitude and culture. All med students are literally taught to walk around saying "I'm dumb and know nothing." Then non-physicians view med students as being *****s and interns as just a notch above that. You think law or pharmacy students have this culture? No. Or how about physical therapy? Chiro even? It's the only profession where being one of the highest IQ people in the work setting also equates you to being treated like an actual idiot. To those outside of medicine, getting into med school actually equates to high levels of intelligence. To those in medicine, it means you're dumb.

Brand new nurses do actually walk around high and mighty like they know it all. That's a hard fact. Most are very nice and easy to work with, but they do think they know a lot and will critique management plans. Older highly experienced nurses are treated like they're veteran doctors. Yet I've seen countless and countless things they've said be completely wrong. Same goes for midlevels.
 
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Or med students can be treated like very highly educated professionals. How about that?
Really? I'm all for treating people with respect and basic human decency which is what I thought you meant. However, med students are not "very highly educated professionals" they are students training to be a doctor, and to apply to residency. Yes as med students, we have had our noses in books than most people--and will probably forget more than most people learn in their lifetimes--but that doesn't make med students "very highly educated professionals." Your status says "Resident," so I'm not sure if that's a lie, if you're a troll, or if you really mean this statement. A third year med student deserves to be treated fairly, with respect, congenial attitude and all-in-all an environment rich with learning. However, that's a big jump from being "very highly educated professional." Which, btw, I don't even know what that means?
 
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Self deprecating....Humorous or modestly critical of oneself. I think like LeBron James saying I played OK when getting MVP. Not sure how the Title matches the theme of this thread.
I don't disagree that many students aren't treated well. Some do make it a challenge. I remember that many of the university students I would question, may not know the right answer, but were never in doubt about the answer they gave me. This would be an invitation for some aggressive teaching from me. Its easier to say, " I don't know". It will only sting for a moment, rather than try to BS way through it. Afterwards, they would respond, " I'm going to look that up", like they didn't believe me. I would respond, " Better late than never". Students attitude have a role in some of these stressful encounters. There are difficult attendings and residents, there are also difficult students.
House of God Rule 11
Show me a medical student who only triples my work, and I will kiss his feet.
 
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Or med students can be treated like very highly educated professionals. How about that?

But in the realm of medicine, they aren’t. They are teenagers.

New RNs have met licensing standards at the peak. Some are dangerous but they are legally practicing in their proper spot. So if they walk around high and mighty, they are technically equal to every other nurse at their level. In the realm of medicine, med students aren’t educated. They don’t qualify to sit for any licensing exams. And it isn’t medicine specifically. If this were law, it is the same thing. Sure, in comparison to their peers in other areas of society, medical students are highly educated. But on the spectrum of practicing medicine, medical students are in middle school.

When you graduated from law school, dental school, or PT school, you are technically equal to the rest and can practice your specialty. It isn’t like that in medicine.
 
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This is about attitude and culture. All med students are literally taught to walk around saying "I'm dumb and know nothing." Then non-physicians view med students as being *****s and interns as just a notch above that. You think law or pharmacy students have this culture? No. Or how about physical therapy? Chiro even? It's the only profession where being one of the highest IQ people in the work setting also equates you to being treated like an actual idiot. To those outside of medicine, getting into med school actually equates to high levels of intelligence. To those in medicine, it means you're dumb.

Brand new nurses do actually walk around high and mighty like they know it all. That's a hard fact. Most are very nice and easy to work with, but they do think they know a lot and will critique management plans. Older highly experienced nurses are treated like they're veteran doctors. Yet I've seen countless and countless things they've said be completely wrong. Same goes for midlevels.
Dude. Nurses and mid levels are done training. Pharmacy and law students are literally almost done training when they’re allowed to do anything. I hope they feel competent within their role because they didn’t learn near as much and there’s literally nothing else to learn.

An M3 is AT LEAST 5 years out from being fully trained. We say we don’t know anything because we’ve looked at the difference between us and the attending and have been thoroughly humbled. The ones that don’t have the introspection to do that are typically annoying and think they’re hot **** despite being, at best, average.

Also, as an M3 I was useless. My notes didnt matter, I couldn’t put in orders and any procedure I did had to be supervised for liability reasons. Not to mention the general uselessness of an M3 to a surgical service fresh off his/her psych rotation lol. If you thought you were super awesome and more useful to the team than the people being paid to be there, please see the above bolded.

Nurses and mid levels have big egos because they have very narrow scopes and are trained to be efficient in that narrow area. Furthermore, if they mess up, it isn’t on them. We can’t afford that luxury.
 
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Also, as an M3 I was useless. My notes didnt matter, I couldn’t put in orders and any procedure I did had to be supervised for liability reasons. Not to mention the general uselessness of an M3 to a surgical service fresh off his/her psych rotation lol. If you thought you were super awesome and more useful to the team than the people being paid to be there, please see the above bolded.
Are med students useless because they literally cannot help, or because we assume they can't and therefore don't let them?

Frankly, I think it's a mix. Some med students are an asset to the team, and can be pretty damn helpful. A lot of medicine these days is grunt work, not complex decision making, but it still has to get done.

Was I useful as a medical student? Yes, on days where the system would let me and when I was on a service that wasn't loaded with 15 layers of people learning things. My surgery rotation had me on a busy vascular service with one chief, one intern, and me. The intern was often pulled elsewhere for call, etc., so there were days when the only person getting numbers, preparing presentations, and writing notes was me. And yes, we could use my notes, if they were attested/cosigned appropriately. The chief would have had a hell of a day running rounds without me, even just in that having 2 sets of hands for nasty vascular dressing changes is a boon.
When I was on trauma, I often went off and did wound cleaning/simple laceration repairs on my own without supervision. The resident would examine the wound first, sure, and at the beginning usually took a look at the final product. But they saved the time of gathering supplies and actually doing the procedure.
On Psych, I usually wrote notes for the entire service which were used.

Of course, I've seen students who can't help out with gathering supplies because they need to be hand-held through finding gauze in a supply closet, or who never learn to present concisely. It's a crap-shoot.

Are med students necessary? No. A system that has med students as the ultimate responsible party for necessary work is doomed to fail because some med students won't/can't do it. But can they be helpful and useful? Absolutely. Can they decrease the work of the team? Yes. Can they do some of the necessary work that otherwise would have to be done by the resident? Yes. As long as the system is set up to recognize this and allow it.


Administrators seem to think that if they let med students do work, nobody else will ever do it and quality will all suffer. That's bull...most teams I've been on ultimately care about the quality of the work that gets done, and will let students do as much as they have demonstrated an actual ability to do. I've never signed a med student note without reading and addending it, but my work load is lessened by only having to read and addend it.

The 'uselessness' comes in when the institution's attitude becomes "well, some med students write crappy notes, so we shouldn't let any of them write any notes that count even with attestation". This means that students are only allowed to do useless duplications of actual work, and yet still require teaching and revision. Then I have to write a note and read/edit the students' meaningless duplicate version, which is extra work for me. In that system, I have extra work whether my student is good or bad (more, actually, if they're good and I have to review more notes), and the only way to save myself work is to ignore them and not teach.

In a system where the resident is ultimately responsible for the quality and completion of the work, but allowed to delegate to the student up to their discretion, a good student can decrease their workload, a bad one usually won't help much, and helping students become good can decrease my workload in the long run.
 
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I have to respectively disagree with one aspect of your thoughtful post. Medical students require supervision until signed off by a responsible superior. I personally am aware of a case at a teaching hospital where a med student in the ER was sent to repair a small scalp laceration on a toddler. Probably some steri strips would have sufficed, maybe a scar underneath the hair. Not much happening in the ER so the med student was dispatched . The child was restrained, surgical drapes applied, and the repair begins. The student relaxed after the crying under the drapes finally quieted down after 20 min or so. After completing the repair, the student took off the drapes to find a blue, unresponsive, suffocated toddler. Resuscitation efforts failed. This is why all students require supervision and follow up. They are learning after all. Cutting corners is not without risk.
 
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The most intelligent people tend to be the most critical of themselves since they realize how much they don't know. Physicians, at least outside of surgery (ahem), also tend to have low levels of narcissism compared to other high-powered careers, which can unfortunately mean they're run roughshod in a society that rewards narcissistic, self-promoting behavior.
 
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Dunning-Kruger.jpg


I don't know, I'd rather be in the Valley of Despair than on Mt. Stupid.
 
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Nurses and mid levels have big egos because they have very narrow scopes and are trained to be efficient in that narrow area. Furthermore, if they mess up, it isn’t on them. We can’t afford that luxury.
This is false. They do not have narrow scopes at all ( they can practice in whatever specialty they are so inclined) and are often practicing minimally supervised (or not at all). And they are constantly pushing to expand their scope (rather successfully, unfortunately).

Med students (M3s) have equivalent (or better) training to NPs and PAs and passed a much more difficult test of competency (Step 1). The only difference between us is political/legal, not related to actual ability/competence. I see no reason responsibilities and respect should not be more similar.
 
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I have to respectively disagree with one aspect of your thoughtful post. Medical students require supervision until signed off by a responsible superior. I personally am aware of a case at a teaching hospital where a med student in the ER was sent to repair a small scalp laceration on a toddler. Probably some steri strips would have sufficed, maybe a scar underneath the hair. Not much happening in the ER so the med student was dispatched . The child was restrained, surgical drapes applied, and the repair begins. The student relaxed after the crying under the drapes finally quieted down after 20 min or so. After completing the repair, the student took off the drapes to find a blue, unresponsive, suffocated toddler. Resuscitation efforts failed. This is why all students require supervision and follow up. They are learning after all. Cutting corners is not without risk.
I don't disagree that they require supervision and shouldn't be left alone until signed off on...and their seniors should discuss the plan with them.

The resident should look at the wound, know how it is going to be repaired, and verify that the student understands the plan. Students are not at the point where their judgment of how to do the procedure should be trusted without verification (aka they can make a plan, but they've got to tell you and you agree it's a good plan before they start doing it). They shouldn't be comfortable leaving until they have seen the student perform this sort of procedure and trust them (aka signed off). The above would be prevented with good supervision.

Every lac repair (or other procedure) that I did unsupervised as an MS3, the resident had seen the lac and both of us knew before I went in the room
a) how was I planning to anesthetize
b) which suture I was using and what layers
c) how I was dressing it (or if I was leaving it open for a check)
d) any additional concerns

The scenario you describe, while horrible, doesn't mean students shouldn't ever do procedures, or even that they should never do so unsupervised. That just means that the first time they do so unsupervised will be 1-2yrs later, without any guarantee of improved teaching between those points. The trick isn't when to start letting people do things, in that an intern isn't magically going to be safe on their own. The trick is how to get them to that point. The entire system failed that child.
 
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A big issue with medical students being helpful is that in many of my med student rotations, and now at my residency program, they don't have the EMR access to write notes or place orders. So while they can present patients on rounds and assist or perform procedures (which I try to prioritize when I have them), they are not in any way "helping" unless they do scut work like gathering EKGs or making sure the nurses are aware of the plan for the day. I'm fine with them not being helpful because they're not here to help, they're here to learn how to be doctors and I'm happy to try to teach them, but their role is not suited to lessening the workload on the medicine service.

During my 3rd year IM rotation I could at least write notes, which was both helpful for the physicians who could then cosign my (garbled, terrible) notes, and good for me because I came into residency able to write a reasonable progress note and H&P, as well as understand the plan better as I actually had to write it out. I think if nothing else, med students should be able to do this.
 
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I feel like part of the problem is expectations that don’t align with the level of training. An MS3 should function as an MS3. They are made to feel dumb/treated like a freshman in college (even though they’re a 25 year old graduate student) because they can’t function as a pgy-3.
This attitude allows them to be brushed aside and disrespected by other healthcare personnel which only serves to reduce the quality of their education.
 
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Dude. Nurses and mid levels are done training. Pharmacy and law students are literally almost done training when they’re allowed to do anything. I hope they feel competent within their role because they didn’t learn near as much and there’s literally nothing else to learn.

An M3 is AT LEAST 5 years out from being fully trained. We say we don’t know anything because we’ve looked at the difference between us and the attending and have been thoroughly humbled. The ones that don’t have the introspection to do that are typically annoying and think they’re hot **** despite being, at best, average.

Also, as an M3 I was useless. My notes didnt matter, I couldn’t put in orders and any procedure I did had to be supervised for liability reasons. Not to mention the general uselessness of an M3 to a surgical service fresh off his/her psych rotation lol. If you thought you were super awesome and more useful to the team than the people being paid to be there, please see the above bolded.

Nurses and mid levels have big egos because they have very narrow scopes and are trained to be efficient in that narrow area. Furthermore, if they mess up, it isn’t on them. We can’t afford that luxury.
Your argument doesn't follow logic. Midlevels practice medicine independently and nurses can sometimes dictate patient care. Titles are just semantics here when the reality of actual patient care has very blurred lines.

Not sure how this turned into talking about MS3s anyway. That's just an example. It applies to residents too (nurses calling them baby doctors) and even to fellows and at times younger attendings. The culture is an issue, even if it doesn't affect YOU specifically.
 
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This is false. They do not have narrow scopes at all ( they can practice in whatever specialty they are so inclined) and are often practicing minimally supervised (or not at all). And they are constantly pushing to expand their scope (rather successfully, unfortunately).

Med students (M3s) have equivalent (or better) training to NPs and PAs and passed a much more difficult test of competency (Step 1). The only difference between us is political/legal, not related to actual ability/competence. I see no reason responsibilities and respect should not be more similar.
Lol midlevels literally practice like attendings. 0 supervision and do whatever they want. Nurses will operate similarly in many settings too with minimal attending presence.
But doctors are held to insane standards.
 
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I feel like part of the problem is expectations that don’t align with the level of training. An MS3 should function as an MS3. They are made to feel dumb/treated like a freshman in college (even though they’re a 25 year old graduate student) because they can’t function as a pgy-3.
This attitude allows them to be brushed aside and disrespected by other healthcare personnel which only serves to reduce the quality of their education.

The other problem is with the structure of medical school. A good trade school teaches you the skills that employers want. On the other hand, only the 3rd (maybe the 4th) years of med school actually covers what residency PDs need.

For instance, the first year is filled with pointless low-yield information. Anatomy is useless without understanding the significance of the structures you're dissecting and awfully taught by anthropologists rather than clinicians.

Furthermore, rather than being sent straight to the wards during M1 and picking up useful clinical skills (such as putting in IVs), we're instead thrown into 1.5-2 years of low-yield lectures and treated like toddlers with the buzzards of professionalism hovering overhead. Lo and behold, we know jack **** when M3 starts.

Additionally, most of medical school is taught by IM docs and rather poorly at best. We don't need 30,000 small group sessions on sociology, quality improvement and community service. That's not what residency PDs care about. We don't need to be taught as M1's to do 50 page long H&Ps (an aberration on any other service but IM) rather than learning how to use the information in the EMR (eg utilizing previous consult notes to do a focused history and physical) so we can survive a busy night in the ED when over 9000 consults are being paged in our direction
 
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The other problem is with the structure of medical school. A good trade school teaches you the skills that employers want. On the other hand, only the 3rd (maybe the 4th) years of med school actually covers what residency PDs need.

For instance, the first year is filled with pointless low-yield information. Anatomy is useless without understanding the significance of the structures you're dissecting and awfully taught by anthropologists rather than clinicians.

Furthermore, rather than being sent straight to the wards during M1 and picking up useful clinical skills (such as putting in IVs), we're instead thrown into 1.5-2 years of low-yield lectures and treated like toddlers with the buzzards of professionalism hovering overhead. Lo and behold, we know jack **** when M3 starts.

Additionally, most of medical school is taught by IM docs and rather poorly at best. We don't need 30,000 small group sessions on sociology, quality improvement and community service. That's not what residency PDs care about. We don't need to be taught as M1's to do 50 page long H&Ps (an aberration on any other service but IM) rather than learning how to use the information in the EMR (eg utilizing previous consult notes to do a focused history and physical) so we can survive a busy night in the ED when over 9000 consults are being paged in our direction
You're spot on correct.

Been saying this for a long time. Step 1 material is completely useless beyond the baseline needed to pass. Step 2 material is actually quite useful but could still be further fine tuned to maximize learning high yield material.

Should we learn and be tested on low yield material? Yes. But spending enormous amounts of time on it and ignoring big chunks of high yield material is pretty nuts. I also agree that procedural skills are completely lost. I literally see MS3s and MS4s who struggle to draw up and give an injection.
Most of medical training nowadays is just tailoring what you do to impress whoever is supervising you, so that you get good marks for professionalism and your never ending feedback from them (which will be 180 opposite of another supervisors feedback) is good. Learning high yield material and getting actual hands-on experience with real world stuff takes a back seat (or no seat at all).
 
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Mid levels are technically allowed to practice any specialty. But the vast majority do a very very small subset of things in one field.
 
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Mid levels are technically allowed to practice any specialty. But the vast majority do a very very small subset of things in one field.

Yeah for all the bitching about midlevels in primary care, don’t 75% of them work in a non-primary care field?
 
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The other problem is with the structure of medical school. A good trade school teaches you the skills that employers want. On the other hand, only the 3rd (maybe the 4th) years of med school actually covers what residency PDs need.

For instance, the first year is filled with pointless low-yield information. Anatomy is useless without understanding the significance of the structures you're dissecting and awfully taught by anthropologists rather than clinicians.

Furthermore, rather than being sent straight to the wards during M1 and picking up useful clinical skills (such as putting in IVs), we're instead thrown into 1.5-2 years of low-yield lectures and treated like toddlers with the buzzards of professionalism hovering overhead. Lo and behold, we know jack **** when M3 starts.

Additionally, most of medical school is taught by IM docs and rather poorly at best. We don't need 30,000 small group sessions on sociology, quality improvement and community service. That's not what residency PDs care about. We don't need to be taught as M1's to do 50 page long H&Ps (an aberration on any other service but IM) rather than learning how to use the information in the EMR (eg utilizing previous consult notes to do a focused history and physical) so we can survive a busy night in the ED when over 9000 consults are being paged in our direction
I agree that training could be more clinically oriented which I think some schools have adopted more clinically oriented curriculums. However it is partly our science based and pathophys knowledge that separates us from the other healthcare people out there that get on the job training to follow an algorithm. So I do get why certain enzymes from biochemistry seem useless but for instance understanding glycogen metabolism,insulin,GLUT transporters all explain postprandial hyperglycemia that occurs with glucocorticoids.knowing why something happens versus just knowing that it happens is important.
But yes the 30,000 professionalism group sessions didn’t prepare me for residency lol.
 
Are med students useless because they literally cannot help, or because we assume they can't and therefore don't let them?

Frankly, I think it's a mix. Some med students are an asset to the team, and can be pretty damn helpful. A lot of medicine these days is grunt work, not complex decision making, but it still has to get done.

Was I useful as a medical student? Yes, on days where the system would let me and when I was on a service that wasn't loaded with 15 layers of people learning things. My surgery rotation had me on a busy vascular service with one chief, one intern, and me. The intern was often pulled elsewhere for call, etc., so there were days when the only person getting numbers, preparing presentations, and writing notes was me. And yes, we could use my notes, if they were attested/cosigned appropriately. The chief would have had a hell of a day running rounds without me, even just in that having 2 sets of hands for nasty vascular dressing changes is a boon.
When I was on trauma, I often went off and did wound cleaning/simple laceration repairs on my own without supervision. The resident would examine the wound first, sure, and at the beginning usually took a look at the final product. But they saved the time of gathering supplies and actually doing the procedure.
On Psych, I usually wrote notes for the entire service which were used.

Of course, I've seen students who can't help out with gathering supplies because they need to be hand-held through finding gauze in a supply closet, or who never learn to present concisely. It's a crap-shoot.

Are med students necessary? No. A system that has med students as the ultimate responsible party for necessary work is doomed to fail because some med students won't/can't do it. But can they be helpful and useful? Absolutely. Can they decrease the work of the team? Yes. Can they do some of the necessary work that otherwise would have to be done by the resident? Yes. As long as the system is set up to recognize this and allow it.


Administrators seem to think that if they let med students do work, nobody else will ever do it and quality will all suffer. That's bull...most teams I've been on ultimately care about the quality of the work that gets done, and will let students do as much as they have demonstrated an actual ability to do. I've never signed a med student note without reading and addending it, but my work load is lessened by only having to read and addend it.

The 'uselessness' comes in when the institution's attitude becomes "well, some med students write crappy notes, so we shouldn't let any of them write any notes that count even with attestation". This means that students are only allowed to do useless duplications of actual work, and yet still require teaching and revision. Then I have to write a note and read/edit the students' meaningless duplicate version, which is extra work for me. In that system, I have extra work whether my student is good or bad (more, actually, if they're good and I have to review more notes), and the only way to save myself work is to ignore them and not teach.

In a system where the resident is ultimately responsible for the quality and completion of the work, but allowed to delegate to the student up to their discretion, a good student can decrease their workload, a bad one usually won't help much, and helping students become good can decrease my workload in the long run.
I don’t disagree with the majority of your post. It would be great to be in a system you describe. However, I’ve never been in a scenario where a med student is allowed to do what you describe. I write notes all day, but they’re not allowed to be attested/co-signed. They have to be redone. I’ve had to beg to do supervised lac repairs despite being just as good or better at it than some of the mid levels I’ve “assisted” in the process. But that’s the system I’m in right now. And because of it, I am useless.


This is false. They do not have narrow scopes at all ( they can practice in whatever specialty they are so inclined) and are often practicing minimally supervised (or not at all). And they are constantly pushing to expand their scope (rather successfully, unfortunately).

Med students (M3s) have equivalent (or better) training to NPs and PAs and passed a much more difficult test of competency (Step 1). The only difference between us is political/legal, not related to actual ability/competence. I see no reason responsibilities and respect should not be more similar.
You really think passing step 1 and going through a few SP encounters makes you as useful as a PA whose been doing the job for a few years? you’ve got a higher knowledge base than them for sure. But they’re familiar with a lot of hospital protocols we’re not at the beginning of MS3. They’ve also just seen the natural progression of the few things they’ve been trained to manage on an inpatient that you haven’t as an MS3. Now by the end of MS3 or early MS4, yeah you’re kicking their butts and the only thing they’re better at is using the EHR and knowing specifically what certain docs want.
 
Mid levels are technically allowed to practice any specialty. But the vast majority do a very very small subset of things in one field.
They literally staff every urgent care and minute clinic in the country. Big chunk of EDs are staffed by midlevels. ICUs overnight are as well. Rural anesthesia is also entirely midlevel driven. And while in *some* of these cases there is "supervision" (lolol) - maybe 0.0001% of the cases are ever even remotely run by a physician.

I agree that training could be more clinically oriented which I think some schools have adopted more clinically oriented curriculums. However it is partly our science based and pathophys knowledge that separates us from the other healthcare people out there that get on the job training to follow an algorithm. So I do get why certain enzymes from biochemistry seem useless but for instance understanding glycogen metabolism,insulin,GLUT transporters all explain postprandial hyperglycemia that occurs with glucocorticoids.knowing why something happens versus just knowing that it happens is important.
But yes the 30,000 professionalism group sessions didn’t prepare me for residency lol.
You're telling me 50 year old attendings in the community can explain to me all the of detailed mechanisms involved in day to day medicine? lol.

Also a nice chunk of that stuff is indeed high yield. But much of it is not. Rare peds genetic syndromes don't need to take up a big part of study time. Instead, I'd prefer med students knowing diabetes drugs in very extensive detail.
That's just one example ^ but you can see how there are equivalent cases when it comes down to how study time is spent. No one is saying to just cut things out. Volume of material can remain the same (if anything, slightly increase) while things are displaced.
 
Yeah for all the bitching about midlevels in primary care, don’t 75% of them work in a non-primary care field?
No clue. Honestly, they’re better utilized in a narrow specialty role. Like there’s one NP at my site who literally just sees a-fib. Nothing else. Kinda hard to mess up.
 
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No clue. Honestly, they’re better utilized in a narrow specialty role. Like there’s one NP at my site who literally just sees a-fib. Nothing else. Kinda hard to mess up.
Then they'll move to derm then to ortho then to working in an urgent care. All unsupervised.
 
They literally staff every urgent care and minute clinic in the country. Big chunk of EDs are staffed by midlevels. ICUs overnight are as well. Rural anesthesia is also entirely midlevel driven. And while in *some* of these cases there is "supervision" (lolol) - maybe 0.0001% of the cases are ever even remotely run by a physician

And they rarely perform everything a doctor does. Yes they go into multiple specialties. But in those specialties they usually aren’t operating at the same level as a doc. Just because they’re staffed doesn’t mean midlevel=doc. They’re in fast track in the ED. They’re calling attendings for anything that isn’t covered by an premade order set. They’re in limited roles in whatever they’re doing.

Of course, anesthesia is out of control. You got me there. But they’re still better at anesthesia than a med student so the point still stands.

BTW, I’m the complete opposite of being pro midlevel. I’d be happy to take a pay cut to never deal with them again. But a mid level who does ~5 things for years is going to be better at those things than an M3. Anyone who can’t admit that has an ego problem.
 
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I think we're seeing a literal display of what my thread is about.
Doctors are their own worst enemies.

Surely that response wasn't completely fabricated to justify the story.
To be fair, I've seen plenty of med students do something very similar to this. I remember in late PGY1 being lectured and yelled at by a med student on a consult service, thinking, why is this resident (it was over the phone and they didn't identify themself) being such a douche, and why does his plan not make any sense. Come to find out, when the actual fellow came in with the recs that the person I talked to was a med student. That was the first of many interactions with med students who think they know better. At least when it's in person, I just walk away now.

What the hell kind of schools and residency programs do you people attend?
Most RNs don't treat me like crap. I don't really see them doing it to med students too. Occasionally you get the crappy one, but you can usually spot them because they are the most insecure ones, who get overly flustered at even the idea of trying something they haven't done before.

The other problem is with the structure of medical school. A good trade school teaches you the skills that employers want. On the other hand, only the 3rd (maybe the 4th) years of med school actually covers what residency PDs need.

For instance, the first year is filled with pointless low-yield information. Anatomy is useless without understanding the significance of the structures you're dissecting and awfully taught by anthropologists rather than clinicians.

Furthermore, rather than being sent straight to the wards during M1 and picking up useful clinical skills (such as putting in IVs), we're instead thrown into 1.5-2 years of low-yield lectures and treated like toddlers with the buzzards of professionalism hovering overhead. Lo and behold, we know jack **** when M3 starts.

Additionally, most of medical school is taught by IM docs and rather poorly at best. We don't need 30,000 small group sessions on sociology, quality improvement and community service. That's not what residency PDs care about. We don't need to be taught as M1's to do 50 page long H&Ps (an aberration on any other service but IM) rather than learning how to use the information in the EMR (eg utilizing previous consult notes to do a focused history and physical) so we can survive a busy night in the ED when over 9000 consults are being paged in our direction
The first 2 years are literally what differentiates you from those PAs and NPs. That base is important. No matter what field you go into at least some of that info will actually impact your practice. Being a surgeon would be a bit hard without all that low yield anatomy.
 
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Then they'll move to derm then to ortho then to working in an urgent care. All unsupervised.
Again, closing in the OR does not make a surgical PA a surgeon.
 
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I really feel like part of the problem is that doctors don’t actually advocate for their profession. While the other medical personnel do. Not only advocate but also claim equivalency and even better care. While we sit here and argue about how we deserve less and don’t know much. That’s the problem and that’s why we still make less than 60,000 as residents working in a pandemic.
 
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