The Trials and Tribulations of a UK student...

[sHyGuY]

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Hey all,

I am currently an undergrad student in the United Kingdom, studying Medical Biochemistry. It is a 3 year program, but between my 2nd and 3rd year (i.e. now!) I have been working in a research institute called National Institute for Medical Research (NIMR).

I have been aspiring to work as a translational scientist, and would like to aim towards immunological clinical research which requires medical experience/MD/MBBS (UK equvilent of MD). However, in the UK, there is no such program that offers what the US offers as MDPHD/MSTP .

I have contacted a few universities (to name but a few; Columbis, Penn State, Yale etc.) and await for responses. However, I would love to get some input from you guys.

My main obstacle I guess is financial backing. Without it, there is no way I can afford to pay the tutition every year. I think its a huge disadvantage for people like me who would like to undertake the MDPHD program, but cannot due to their nationality (foriegn student).

I do think I am more than capable of participating in the course, as my ambition and drive overwhelmingly supports my currently decent grades. I guess my dedication to research was awarded by having this opportunity to work in NIMR.

Anyhow, any information and opinions are gratefully appreciated. I apologise if such thread of messages do exist, so if you can point them out, I would be grateful.

Cheers

I forgot to mention...as I am a UK student, I obviously havent got MCAT and GPA scoring. I do not know how this will swing my application so to speak, but I am willing to take any exams...please, pass this message to anyone who knows of such a precicament (maybe they experienced it..?)
Thanks again!

 

[leorl]

Hiya, it's a shame b/c you sound like you'd be a great student. However, getting into medical school in the US would most likely require you to have gone to a US undergrad university, although there may be very rare chances that a foreign student is admitted. However, they definitely wouldn't offer anything in the way of scholarships... US med students don't even get scholarships (or if so, only rather minimal) - it's not like PhD programs where they offer people money to come do a PhD there. Quite a few US students can't afford medical school, which is why we go on loans - and some come out $200,000+ in debt by the end of medical school.

But by all means, try. If you don't get a response from the schools you contacted, try calling and you'll be able to speak to someone individually. There's no set process for foreign applications I don't think, so it's best if you talk to the colleges individually and see how they would view an application such as yours. It would sound promising, given that the course you want to do doesn't seem to be available in the UK and that you have quite a lot of research experience.

You probably would have to take the MCAT though.

The thing in the UK though, is that isn't an MD a research degree? You'd sit for an MD after getting your MBBS? And since you'd have an undergrad degree, you could try for a fast track MBBS degree (4 yrs)? Or, just undertake a postgrad PhD program in clinical immunology? There has to be some sort of venue for that?

 

[Purifyer]

I have been aspiring to work as a translational scientist, and would like to aim towards immunological clinical research which requires medical experience/MD/MBBS (UK equvilent of MD). However, in the UK, there is no such program that offers what the US offers as MDPHD/MSTP .

http://www.medschoolguide.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6506

Many if not most medical schools in the oz/nz/uk offer medical degree/phd combined programmes.

 

[sHyGuY]

Thank you for pointing me towards the right directions - it never was made obvious that there are some equivalent of MD-PHD's in the UK by universities

But, man, W4G, you have been helpful, but whats all that outburst about?

This seems to be a trend on these boards but is usually, "Hi, I'm an american student with a 3.1 GPA and 26 on my MCATs - I 'want' to go abroad for my medical school education - does anyone know if Oxford or Cambridge takes US students?". I'm sorry to say that it appears we have people in the UK who are just as deluded.

Deluded? I am more than capable of doing all the running around finding details as I have been so far, but these forums are here to point people towards the right direction, positive criticism and so forth. I had no idea universities like Oxford, UCL etc offer such positions. The only reason why I enquired about MD-PHD in the states is
1- a good friend of mine has been dogging me to take up the avenue as they were certain its a career move that I would appreciate greatly (they're currently midway through the program)
2- and she also told me of many international students who are currently doing MD-PHD in the states and who I am in current contact with.

Of course its more logical to carry out my studies here in the UK- the blatant point on the fact of finance. I apologise if my "broad" enquiry seemed mundane and not of your standard, but I use these forums for advice and "enquiries" like mine are somewhat expected.

Is anyone reading this in their latter stages of the MD-PHD equivilent in the UK?

Thanks again...

 

[13538]

Shyguy, what's the hurry in doing an MB/PhD programme? You'd be better off qualifying and spending sometime in hospital medicine, getting the MRCP and then taking time out to get a PhD. There are plenty of clinical research fellowships available from the likes of the Wellcome Trust to facilitate medical graduates wishing to complete a PhD.

Although you might want to be a clinical immunologist right now...but a few years of medical school and clinical teaching might change your perspective completely.

Where do you see yourself in 10-15 years time...in the US, the UK...doing what?? To be honest, unless you are a US citizen and have completed 4 years of undergad in a US institution...medical school in the US isn't really an option.

 

[sHyGuY]

Shyguy, what's the hurry in doing an MB/PhD programme?

Theres no hurry - its an option thats available. I understand the apprehension of partaking medical school in the US being a UK citizen. Yes, I might as well do the MBBS/MD here and carry out a further Ph.D. - or take up a fellowship the Welcome Trust and/or MRC fund.

I guess the fact that in the States (well, initially thought only offered in the states) the program is amalgimated in one. The problem with switching from medicine to "research" is lack of experience in a wet lab - and the common ethos. Going from Ph.D. to medicine is, in my opinion, just as difficult, unless its warranted because an individual wants a complete career change.

With these MD-PHD programs, you marry both fundamental aspects which then lays down the pathway towards clinical/medical research.

Thank you for your response....

 

[Purifyer]

You do realise an MD in the UK is different to an MBBS shyguy? It's just a little confusing when you intermingle the two terms.

 

[sjkpark]

Shyguy, I think you should research more into programmes in UK. I'll be VERY surprised if they didn't have MBBS/PhD programme in UK. We have it hear it in Auckland, and not many people do it. There's even a scholarship for MBChB/PhD candidates.

I think (don't want to start a flame-war here, so I think...) the programme is very popular in US because their med school fee's so expensive AND MSTP programme pays for med school tuition and stipend.

I personally think MBChB/PhD is not such a good idea. Because:

1) Lets say that you do preclinical, then PhD, then go onto clinical year... and you decide that you don't want to be a physician or paediatrician (which clinical immunologists are), instead you want to be a surgeon. What are you gonna do then?

2) A lot of the specialty training programmes here in Aus/NZ (and I imagine situation won't be too different there) accept PhD coursework as part of advanced training. (sorry I'm not as lucid as I can be, because it's 2 am!) So if you do PhD after basic physician training, there's a good chance that they will accept 1-2 year of PhD work towards advanced training. Who knows, you might even be able to wiggle yourself out of couple of exams.

3) Aren't you sick of being a student? I'm currently doing my general medicine run at a hospital with good teaching programme, wonderful consultants, regs, house surgeons, nurses, etc, etc. But sometimes I get sick and tired of being a student and feeling that I'm getting in everybody's way. Nobody makes me feel that way, but I myself feel that way.

4) I don't think a big gap between pre-clinical and clinical year is a good idea. There's a guy in my group who's spent 2 years doing master's in molecular medicine and I think he's finding things pretty difficult.

5) That bench experience. It doesn't apply to you, does it? You already have PLENTY of bench experience, right?

I've pretty much made my mind up to do PhD after I finished my basic training in my chosen specialty for all of the reasons above. Will probably take a year out after 5th year to do honours research (if I'm not sick of being a student by then).

So far I've done: anaesthetics, ED, orthopaedics, GP, and now gen med, and I don't want to go into any of them. But I've done 3 summer research studentships, one of which won the prize for the best studentship, and another project resulting in publication. So at least I think I have something to fall back on if I can't find anything in clinical medicine I like.

I can guarantee you that your perspective towards LIFE will change after starting med school, then after starting clinical years. Don't have such a narrow focus, because you gotta have sound background in every system. Especially in clinical immunology, you'll dealing with every single organ in the body, right?

 

[leorl]

If you want bench/research experience, you can always apply for research project grants and talk to people in departments you're particularly interested in while you're completing your MBBS. For summer / holiday work, or part-time work during college. Just because you'll be in med school doesn't mean you can't get research / clinical experience. Remember, it's what you make of it.

 

[Purifyer]

But I've done 3 summer research studentships, one of which won the prize for the best studentship, and another project resulting in publication. So at least I think I have something to fall back on if I can't find anything in clinical medicine I like.

Do you have something against holidays sjkpark? 🙂

 

[sjkpark]

I went to Colorado last summer (that is, our summer, their winter) too, for 4 weeks. I found it quite managable with the studentship. If anything, the holiday plan made me far more efficient, just get it done and over with so that I can go on holiday.

Summer studentship is like having your summer job pre-arranged. I was quite lucky because there was a separate funding set aside for retina project, so I knew that I'll get the money no matter what. Whereas many of my friends ended up staying home for most of the holidays looking for jobs! Most of them ended up on the emergency holiday allowance thing too. Grrhhh....

BTW I've done a 6-month OE, and promised myself I'll never travel more than 3 months.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I'm a British graduate who was lucky enough to do my Ph.D. in the U.S. before applying to U.S. medical schools. Perhaps I can offer you some first-hand advice.

There are a couple of M.D./Ph.D. programmes in the U.S. that are open to foreign nationals - with funding. They tend to take the best of the best and you will DEFINITELY owe them the MCAT before they will consider you. Two of those places are Washington University in St.Louis (Wash. U.), and the Medical University of South Carolina (MUSC). There are others.

Less than 200 first year places for the pure M.D. degree are offered to foreign nationals in the U.S., and none of them are funded (actually, I take that back; Harvard offers a full-tuition waiver to one outstanding foreign national in every first year class) but, again, you'd have to be stellar.

Having experienced both systems myself, I am acutely aware of benefits and drawbacks on either side of the pond. If you have a British undergraduate degree and you are a not a permanent resident in the U.S., you will face issues applying to U.S. medical schools.

My educational background and resident status are now a hybrid of both countries. There are one or two other British graduates on SDN who have attended U.S. medical schools as their first choice but I've not found them helpful, so please feel free to pm me if you want to discuss anything further. Best of British to you! 🙂

 

[Purifyer]

There's a pretty arrogant British 'MB/PhD' student on this board. Don't let that person discourage you if you want to look into to studying in the U.S.

Arrogant? If you looked a little more closely W4G was actually very helpful to shyguy before he realised how little effort shyguy had put into (1) his post (2) consideration of his future.

I thought it was pretty ironic that someone with such a self purported interest and experience in research would make a sweeping generalisation about no schools in the UK offering a combined PhD programme without even investigating google for an answer 😀

 

[Scottish Chap]

Arrogant? If you looked a little more closely W4G was actually very helpful to shyguy before he realised how little effort shyguy had put into (1) his post (2) consideration of his future.

I thought it was pretty ironic that someone with such a self purported interest and experience in research would make a sweeping generalisation about no schools in the UK offering a combined PhD programme without even investigating google for an answer 😀

Your point is well-taken....and I was not referring to the person you quote.