There are now lodged 1100 applications for 740 Intern spots in QLD

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qldking

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Has it occurred to you that there are always many more P1-P6 applicants than there are spots this early in the Ballot?

Breaking news: in 2008, there were 763 applications for 423 spots in Round 1 of the Ballot! How did they all get jobs?
(360, or 80%, over-subscribed in 2008 versus 340, or 50%, this year).

I don't see how your headline shows anything "out of control". Unless you're simply pointing out that there are more spots.
 

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Has it occurred to you that there are always many more P1-P6 applicants than there are spots this early in the Ballot?

Breaking news: in 2008, there were 763 applications for 423 spots in Round 1 of the Ballot! How did they all get jobs?
(360, or 80%, over-subscribed in 2008 versus 340, or 50%, this year).

I don't see how your headline shows anything "out of control". Unless you're simply pointing out that there are more spots.

Over-subscribed as in were accepted to more than one hospital and between states? Elaborate a bit.
 
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Huh? I just posted the same table of preferences that you posted, at a similar point (Round 1), but for the 2008 Ballot. This has nothing to do with acceptances, and applicants can't put more than one hospital down as first preference in the Ballot. Are you even in Queensland, because there's really no mystery among Qlders as to how this all works.
 
Huh? I just posted the table -- the same table that you posted, at a similar point (Round 1) in the 2008 Ballot. This has nothing to do with acceptances, and applicants can't put more than one hospital down as first preference in the Ballot. Are you even in Queensland, because there's really no mystery among Qlders as to how this all works.

If there's more applicants than positions available, how is everyone getting a position? Especially if most hospitals are 'over-subscribed' as they are now by P1s who automatically get their first choice...and then what happens to those who choose an over-susbscribed hospital such as PA or RBWH--wouldn't they then get placed in another site before a P2-P6 has an opportunity?
 
Ok, you have just completely admitted to knowing absolutely nothing about how Australian internship ballots work, which means that you never took part in one. I am now left wondering whether you could even be a medical student in Australia wilfully not understanding any of this. Yet, this has not stopped you from making sensationalist claims on the topic as this thread's OP.

The short answer to your question is, most of the over-subscribed are from out-of-state and remain in their respective states, while just as consistently, many in-state go elsewhere. This has always been the case. And no, P1s don't 'automatically get their first choice'. Never have.
 
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Ok, you have just completely admitted to knowing absolutely nothing about how Australian internship ballots work, which means that you never took part in one. I am now left wondering whether you could even be a medical student in Australia wilfully not understanding any of this. Yet, this has not stopped you from making sensationalist claims on the topic as this thread's OP.

The short answer to your question is, most of the over-subscribed are from out-of-state and remain in their respective states. This has always been the case.

Then why were so many internationals on Commonwealth funded places? And now their states are giving preference to other applicants, effectively barring them from returning to their home state. You also haven't even looked at the final position status report from today.

Things have changed since your time, old man. And yes I am in QLD but in a rural area so I never had to worry about the process when I went through it.
 
Yet not so ironically, this 'old man' understands far more than you about the topic you are discussing.

How can you with a straight face sensationally headline a thread title as you have, characterizing with, "universities are absolutely out of control", when you don't understand the first thing about Qld ballots, their history, what the numbers mean, what it even means if a hospital becomes over-subscribed!? For unis to be 'out of control', there would either have to be something radically new and outrageous about your number of applicants vs. spots, or there is nothing newer than at least as far back as 2008 that you are 'reporting'. Take your pick.

Your entire thread has fallen flat, and your grand scheme to wreck the joint again defies rational thought. As LeForte recently said in the last thread you sabotaged, Australia has had a very good track record of meeting internship demand of those who train here. It has consistently met demand. That does not guarantee demand will be met in the future, but your incessant scaremongering and bold assertions and demonizing based on unchanged stats and a hypothetical future that has defied the many naysayers over the past decade, is really tired.

Call it a day, qldking. Maybe spend it trying to understand those things you are so quick to blame for your own dark views.
 
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You haven't explained anything yet. All you have done is attack me for no reason.

Explain to me how P2-P6 students will get positions if P1s don't get their positions first.
 
No, I won't help you understand the system. You have clearly shown that you take no issue with making up condemnations before understanding the things you condemn -- that you condemn first, then ask later. As I've said before, why would I help feed such a clearly warped agenda?

Stop making stuff up, stop the rants, stay on topic, and show some genuine curiosity in the matters you discuss, and people may treat you with respect.
 
No, I won't help you understand the system. You have clearly shown that you take no issue with making up condemnations before understanding the things you condemn -- that you condemn first, then ask later. As I've said before, why would I help feed such a clearly warped agenda?

Stop making stuff up, stop the rants, stay on topic, and show some genuine curiosity in the matters you discuss, and people may treat you with respect.

Ok so you admit you know nothing about basic mathematics.
 
You haven't explained anything yet. All you have done is attack me for no reason.

Explain to me how P2-P6 students will get positions if P1s don't get their positions first.

Honestly mate, I would ignore pitman. He's trolling you and everyone on these boards. I'm honestly curious what his agenda is by defending uq but let people make up their own minds. It is confirmed now that the majority of internationals in SA will miss out on an internship unless there's a mass exodus of people from the state. It'll be interesting seeing what happens elsewhere and with the cmi stuff. Haven't heard anything about the cmi in a while. Wonder if it's still being funded.
 
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Honestly mate, I would ignore pitman. He's trolling you and everyone on these boards. I'm honestly curious what his agenda is by defending uq but let people make up their own minds. It is confirmed now that the majority of internationals in SA will miss out on an internship unless there's a mass exodus of people from the state. It'll be interesting seeing what happens elsewhere and with the cmi stuff. Haven't heard anything about the cmi in a while. Wonder if it's still being funded.

I'm genuinely curious as to what makes someone support the universities when it's universally agreed upon that they have absolutely screwed our generation.

And he never actually makes any salient points but opts instead to insult everyone who doesn't agree with him.

How many internationals in SA try to go rural?
 
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I'm honestly curious what his agenda is by defending uq but let people make up their own minds. It is confirmed now that the majority of internationals in SA will miss out on an internship unless there's a mass exodus of people from the state. It'll be interesting seeing what happens elsewhere and with the cmi stuff. Haven't heard anything about the cmi in a while. Wonder if it's still being funded.
Defending from extreme scaremongering is a far cry from not allowing people to make up their minds. In fact, it serves to allow people to make up their own minds. That's my agenda, while those who defend their own Australia-bashing and incessant scaremongering, like yours every year that get proven false, clearly have a different agenda.

Nothing is confirmed in SA, Transition, except that one federal program has been cut, while another has been in place for two years with great results. You haven't heard anything about CMI yet because, just like for the past two years when people like you claimed that there weren't any jobs (and huge swaths of int'ls with no prospects -- "182 to be exact" was your phrase, when the reality was zero), there won't be any decision or numbers until much later in the season, which is also when traditionally in many states spots have been created to match the demand.

Yes, we all wonder whether CMI will continue, and some of us here hope it will while not throwing out condemnations based on multiple false claims in the middle of the ballot cycle that there are no jobs:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/anyone-applying-for-2015.1063442/page-5#post-15299469

Of course, you'll just keep ignoring the specific examples countering this recurring theme of yours, but hey, that's just part of your MO (you'll just "ignore" me? really?)...to distract from your agenda, the one that keeps coming back to you?

The point remains that this thread, started with a doom-and-gloom scaremongering claim that makes no sense and further clarified by what many would consider paranoid nonsense, serves no point except for drawing the three of us together into a 'debate' about who the real trolls are. Nice strategy. Keep it up.
 
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Dude it's not made with the intent to scare people away. It's about pointing out that the system cannot survive when the medical schools are dumping too many people into the system. It's a very possible reality that there simply won't be any jobs out there for doctors,
 
Your headline has nothing to do with possibility. They never do.
 
Well I guess we can chase down the results at the end of the year and if I am wrong then I will gladly admit it.
 
This is right off the Flinders MBBS website

All international applicants and medical students should be aware that Australia currently has more medical student graduates than the number of internship places in Australia. Graduate projections show that this will continue for the next few years and that this will affect graduates from all states and territories of Australia, including South Australia. The matter of internships is complex and Flinders University is unable to give advice to applicants on this matter as it falls outside of its jurisdiction. The University encourages all medical students to consider their options following graduation. International medical students should seek information about their home country’s medical internship and medical registration provisions and to explore all possible avenues for undertaking an internship in their home country, or another country, in the event that an internship is not available in Australia.

http://www.flinders.edu.au/medicine/sites/medical-course/after_graduation/international-students.cfm
 
Yes, just as was the case at this point in the season for the past few years. Yet...everyone wanting to stay has been able to.
 
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Nah I'm just saying I don't trust him because he flip-flops on issues depending on what helps him soothe his fragile ego.

I'm unable to find any examples supporting your notion that shan flip-flops, but I did find this interesting tidbit, from just two months ago:

...I'd recommend University of Melbourne, and would not recommended University of Queensland
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...to-nz-or-oz-med-school.1063664/#post-15088546

...while UMelb this month is a big corporate *****?

We are pretty much witnessing right before our eyes the end of the university system as a semi-legitimate institution in Australia.

...I think the combination of PAYE and AUD-USD rate is why schools except the biggest corporate ****** (UQ/UM) are not accepting Staffords/Grad Plus.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...nger-accepts-us-finaid.1076515/#post-15308260
 
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Hi everyone, I am applying to the UQ School of Medicine from the United States. I'm applying to the SoM rather than Ochsner because if I would prefer to stay in Australia after graduating than pursue training back in the United States. I would be happy to train and work in a rural community after graduation. However, my research online has resulted in more confusion than answers regarding the internship shortage. The vast majority of sources I have found reference a drastic internship shortage in 2012 that seemed to be solved by the last-minute addition of a number of internship spots. I have found no information indicating that a similar shortage occurred in 2013. I also cannot find any sources indicating that a shortage similar to 2012 is expected to occur in 2014. Is this no longer a real concern?

I spoke with a representative of the school and was told "Queensland Commonwealth funds positions, so in that province intern opportunities have been expanded to meet the expected shortage in the physician workforce. Applications for those spots are separate from the general internship application process." I have also spoken with a friend who is currently an international student at QL-SoM and he told me that everyone he knows has been able to secure internships upon graduation as long as they are open to going to a rural community and that he is not really concerned about obtaining an internship.

From what I have read on this forum and elsewhere, all AUS med school grads seeking an internship in Australia has eventually found one. The concern seems to be that in 2012, a crisis was narrowly avoided. Furthermore, since medical graduates are still increasing, there is a concern that this could happen again. By the time I would graduate, it seems like the number of medical school graduates will already have peaked. I would really appreciate anyone's thoughts on the training prospects for international students in the upcoming years. I am mostly concerned about internship spots since residency spots in pgy2 are awarded on merit and I longer be at a disadvantage as a non-citizen. However, I would really appreciate any advice regarding the training process you think international applicants should be aware of. All my research has indicated that although there may be bottlenecks in the training process, Australia is expecting a physician shortage in the next 10 years as well. I have taken it as a good sign that the Australian has been able to meet internship demand, even when the 2012 crisis occurred.

@pitman, could you please explain what you meant by hospitals "oversubscribing"? I was completely lost over that part of the conversation.

Thank you!
 
I'm not quite sure where to start in addressing your comments, as there is quite a mouthful there. I'd advise you read through many old threads to answer much of what you're asking to fill in some of the gaps below.

There wasn't a "2012" crisis -- there has been a growing problem over the past decade of increasing graduate numbers. The increases in med student numbers starting in 2004 were in response to huge shortages that resulted from the previous ~20 years of underfunding for medical education here, but the problem now is how to train the new surge (formerly called 'the medical student tsunami', and now as the surge moves to the junior doctor level, 'the junior doctor tsunami'). But the first hurdle is how to get all the grads internship.

2012 was simply the first year that states were not able to do this on their own after about five years of being able to increase spots sufficiently to meet demand. Because int'l students are of lower placement priority than domestic students, they would be the ones without internship (all the states have affirmed their commitment to guarantee domestic students internship spots). Because int'l students are big money, and because politically and for other reasons it's better to use Australian-trained docs than to import docs from other countries to help fill continued specific doctor shortages (chiefly, rural docs), at the last moment that year, the federal government helped to fund ~100 spots in private hospitals for the express use of int'l students (aka Commonwealth Medical Internship, or CMI, spots). These spots are separate, and are offered after, the normal ballot process. There are stipulations, like you must do 4 weeks of Return of Service work in an area of need, and if you break the contract (not completing internship of doing the RoS) you are obligated to pay back the cost of your internship training (estimated up to $130k). Not much of a requirement really, but that does not include the normal restrictions for former int'l students (along with all IMGs) of what is known as the Ten Year Moratorium (which you should search for in these forums if you don't understand).

Anyway, the federal funding continued last year for another 100 CMI spots. As a result, all int'ls wanting to stay have been offered internship, with many of the new spots remaining unfilled for each of the past two years. However it is not guaranteed that this federal funding will continue. The number of grads is expected to peak after another couple of years of much smaller increases in grad numbers, so it has already been shown that Australia can physically create enough spots for everybody; the issue is where the funding to do so will come from (with other related issues, like the quality of the training grads might be expected to get in an environment with so many more junior docs vying for the same opportunities for work experience as were gotten before the tsunami, or if training in private hospitals, a new thing here, will be comparable to what's found in the public hospitals,...).

Accommodating all the junior docs for their training after internship is another issue, and is rather complex, but basically it means that much of the surplus will become general practitioners, particularly rural generalists, or potentially, many will become hospital house officers not on a training path for a prolonged period (e.g., instead of, say, 2 years postgrad to get into some of the specialty training colleges, it may take 4 years, or 4 instead of 3...).

Oversubscribing in the internship ballot is simply when more people preference (subscribe to) a particular hospital for internship than there are spots at that hospital. Since all grads in Qld preference all training hospitals in the ballot, the result is that some of those in oversubscribed hospitals get pulled out of that preference and then placed into the pool for their second (or third, or fourth...) preference. Who gets taken out of an oversubscribed hospital is currently done randomly, but this may change to some sort of merit-based system (however, it will never be the case that int'l students in Qld could get a higher priority than domestic students -- any merit-based system would occur in bands, like it does in the current system, except that the federally funded spots are only available after the normal ballot and are just for int'l students).

At any rate, please read through threads going back a couple years at least to understand some of this, and then if you have questions, be focused with your questions and ask in the appropriate thread(s).
 
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Thanks for your comments @pitman! Sorry if this was not the appropriate thread. I was looking for updates on possible intern shortages but most of the information is from 2012.
 
Its the same scaremongering every single year... "omg there are more graduates than intern spots, this is an abomination! We are all doomed!"

Then when the selection process comes around and all internationals end up getting internship spots all the trolls are forced to relinquish their loudspeaker for a few months until next years ballot starts. Until you can show me that international students in Queensland who want internship spots are not getting them, and not just post an endless stream of conjecture and misinformation, you should probably stop posting sensationalistic information qldking. Fact of the matter remains, that although there is concern about internship spots, EVERY student who has wanted one so far has gotten one. Some of your posts are nothing but pure slander.

I am currently a second year at the UQ-ochsner program and have been following closely on the intern situation myself. Although it's true that every international student has gotten an internship spot according to statistics, it doesn't account for the fact that many of these international students have already gone back to their home countries before the intern match was over. In addition, another reason why it appears everyone got an internship is that it is possible a lot of Aussies found placement in other states outside of QLD whether it be in NSW, SA, etc. On top of that, last year the federal government opened up new intern spots pretty much at the 11th hour. Those international students who accepted them, however, had to agree to go rural for their intern spots. So it may be luck that everyone found a spot, but who knows whats going to happen in a couple of years down the line with even more people applying
 
I believe the newly opened intern spots were more likely to be in private hospitals in Brisbane like Wesley and Greenslopes.
 
Correct. The rural requirement is simply that you spend 4 few weeks in a rural area within 5 years. Trivial, really. I think the requirement to pay back $130k if you bail before finishing the requirement is what's scared off the most (efficiently getting rid of those who planned to bail mid-year if they had got a job back in Canada), despite the fact that it's really an unenforceable fine (assuming the offender is ok with not returning to Australia ever).

IMO anyone who leaves before finding out if they got a job -- or who didn't want to apply while back in Canada before potentially flying back for internship -- didn't really want a job here. True, not all int'ls who stayed ended up in Qld, but that's not the point. All who wanted a job in Australia got one, and there were spots left over in Qld.

It's true that for the past two years, the CMI spots came about in a haphazard manner. And for sure, any year the **** could hit the fan and grads could be without jobs (particularly if the Commonwealth decides to kill their own two-year precedent), just as has been the case since the beginning of the tsunami (2007 in Qld), when spots were usually found at the last minute (13 extra spots found that first year after QHealth said for months that they could not create any more).

Certainly it cannot be assumed that there WILL be jobs. The point is that so far, there HAVE been jobs, despite many claims made to the contrary each year. And the remaining increases in grad numbers that will be seen over the next 2-3 years will be much smaller than have been accommodated to date. So I continue to be *cautiously* optimistic. Time will tell.

CORRECTION: the RoS commitment is for one year (in RA 2-5, which for Qld is anywhere outside of the southeast Qld coastal region), but must be done in blocks of at least 4 weeks each. Apologies for the misinformation.
 
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True the spots are going to be placed in private hospital, but you will have to enter a return of service agreement where you will have to go rural for 1 year after your internship. This is still a small "price" (if you will call it) to be able to work in Australia.
 
Is the one year rural a new requirement for next year? Last year's requirement was only four weeks, sometime over five years.

CORRECTION: no, was one year.
 
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Is the one year rural a new requirement for next year? Last year's requirement was only four weeks, sometime over five years.

The requirement that you must do one year of rural if you accepted the position started for 2014, which stated:

"graduates who accept a CMI internship position will need to enter into a Return of Service Agreement (ROSA) with the Commonwealth. The ROSA will require you to complete twelve months return of service in an approved location (generally regional or rural as specified by the Australian Standard Geographical Classification - Rural Areas 2-5) which is to be completed within five years of commencing internship;"

However, it also appears if your 1 year internship is in one of these rural locations, then it will satisfy this requirement as well. Last I remember, places like Sunshine Coast and Cairns counted which aren't too bad (I actually would love to do an internship in Cairns). Don't know if Townsville counts anymore, but can check.

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/m...-commonwealth-medical-internships-information
 
My bad. I took the "4 weeks continuous" clause of the contract as the total commitment. One year makes far more sense. I'll correct my above posts..

I have a house on the Cairns northern beaches. Yes, pretty much everyone who does internship in Cairns loves it. Then again, virtually all leave after 2-3 years.
 
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That was when I realized UM has as many students as UQ MBBS

One day we can go for a drink. Women love me in my tin foil hat.

So, yet again, you just say whatever "facts" you make up that fit your preferred narrative, without actually checking what you are talking about. Usually it helps to figure out what actually is and then form an opinion based on that.
 
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