There isn't anything Lizzy, is there?

[NickNaylor]

I don't think most people are agreeing with the OP's specific assertions. But the gist of what he/she is saying is still true - you need something that sets you apart from almost everyone else (if you have a below average MCAT for a top school).

Please tell us more about how "below average" those applicants were But seriously... there had to have been something that set them apart and got them interviews. If you don't know what those things were, then you should admit that. But you shouldn't claim that they didn't have "anything truly extraordinary to mail home about". That's BS. It's Pritzker, not Bert and Ernie Medical School.

So my only options are 1) admit that I'm wrong (because there's no possible way that your theology regarding medical admissions could be wrong) or 2) post examples of why I'm right? Please. You're welcome to believe or not believe what I post - I'm not interested in proving myself to you. However, you should realize that you're a pre-med that, at best, is in the middle of the process. Your perspective is limited. In this case, your perspective is just wrong. There are people who get into medical school - even top schools - without anything truly outstanding and an average MCAT score. No, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. I'm not involved with the interview/no-interview selection process, so I'm not sure what goes into those decisions. However, I DO have the ability to see nearly complete applications after applicants have been invited for the interview. Most applicants have strong apps or a couple of highly notable points in their apps in addition to strong numbers. But not all of them.

Again, though, this whole situation can be avoided by applying smartly. If you're applying with an average app (including average MCAT), you shouldn't apply to just top ___ schools or, really, even have high expectations for those schools. I'm not saying applicants with average apps shouldn't apply to these schools. Not at all. But, they need to be realistic about their expectations and evaluate their app candidly when choosing which schools to apply to.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Mjolner]

What, you never passed a bill or two in Congress? Amateur.

Get back to me when you've VETOED a bill or two from congress

 

[487806]

Chill. I did not mean to scrutinize anyone, and if I did I apologize. But if they're going to voluntarily give their input, as you put it, then they cannot expect not to be questioned. That's the nature of an online forum. They don't have to respond. Whether or not they decide to continue a discussion is up to them.

Let's take this slowly. As others pointed out, you're not even in med school yet. Wait till you finish everything, get into med school and come back to share your views as a med student. You seem to know everything regarding the admission process when you clearly,don't

 

[flyers]

I'm not involved with the interview/no-interview selection process, so I'm not sure what goes into those decisions.

Thanks for confirming that. Just so that we're on the same page, this means that if an applicant had a particular hook that got them an interview, you wouldn't necessarily know what that hook was, right?

Again, though, this whole situation can be avoided by applying smartly. If you're applying with an average app (including average MCAT), you shouldn't apply to just top ___ schools or, really, even have high expectations for those schools. I'm not saying applicants with average apps shouldn't apply to these schools. Not at all. But, they need to be realistic about their expectations and evaluate their app candidly when choosing which schools to apply to.

Exactly. And that's really the only take home message of this thread.

Let's take this slowly. As others pointed out, you're not even in med school yet. Wait till you finish everything, get into med school and come back to share your views as a med student. You seem to know everything regarding the admission process when you clearly,don't

Actually, all I'm going off of is information on here - in particular, posts from LizzyM. So maybe you should take things slowly and go through her most recent thread, and then come back here. I'm not sure who you think you are, but I'm going to assume from your post that you're a med student, not a pre-med. If that's the case, that does not mean you have the right to talk down to people on this forum.

Also, med students don't know everything about the admissions process either - only adcoms do. There are probably med students out there who are less informed about the admissions process than frequent posters on this forum! And of course vice-versa.

Take things slowly!

 

[Mako555]

it is certainly true that you have to make up for your MCAT score if it is below the school's average. that much should be extremely obvious. however, your list of things that it takes to do so is just idiotic. it is not so impossible to overcome an mcat average. it seems like you are trying to justify your poor cycle. i got a balanced 35 but my GPA is well below average for some of the schools I interviewed or will interview at. exact same situation as an MCAT deficit, and I have none of those things on your ridiculous list. publications? yes. first author? heck no. do you know what it takes to be a first author? do you know what it takes to be directly involved in legislation? why you think you have the knowledge to make that list is beyond me.

sorry for the rant. but your cynical post is basically an insult to the application process and everyone involved.

 

[NickNaylor]

Thanks for confirming that. Just so that we're on the same page, this means that if an applicant had a particular hook that got them an interview, you wouldn't necessarily know what that hook was, right?



Exactly. And that's really the only take home message of this thread.



Actually, all I'm going off of is information on here - in particular, posts from LizzyM. So maybe you should take things slowly and go through her most recent thread, and then come back here. I'm not sure who you think you are, but I'm going to assume from your post that you're a med student, not a pre-med. If that's the case, that does not mean you have the right to talk down to people on this forum.

Also, med students don't know everything about the admissions process either - only adcoms do. There are probably med students out there who are less informed about the admissions process than frequent posters on this forum! And of course vice-versa.

Take things slowly!

I am unaware of what's included in LORs and secondaries. However, the latter usually comes up in the course of an interview, so I often become aware of those things. It's possible that an applicant could have truly outstanding LORs and I'm not aware of it. However I find it highly unlikely that an otherwise average or unremarkable applicant would somehow magically produce amazing LORs. That just doesn't make sense. Sure, it's possible, but I'm skeptical, and it probably doesn't happen all that often.

You are being talked down to because you are literally a parrot that just repeats information on SDN. In most cases there is nothing wrong with that, but it also contributes nothing. I'm sure you can understand others' irritation when you are questioning people with more experience than yourself and doubting what is said based on... what you've read on SDN? SDN is a great resource but it isn't the end all be all of medical admissions. If you don't believe what I or others say, that's fine. Your loss. However, I have absolutely zero incentive to make stuff up. Again, I hope you can understand why it might be irritating to be called out by a pre-med that has very little to no actual experience with the process other than reading about it on SDN. It's like being a professional athlete that gets called out and questioned by sports analysts. It's really not even worth the time to respond to in any sort of detail. That doesn't mean the athlete is omniscient or immune to questioning, but I'm going to go with the guy that's actually done stuff versus the guy that just talks about the stuff being done 99/100 times.

(sent from my phone)

 

[sliceofbread136]

The cycle can be hard on people with high MCATs too. It's ridiculously competitive out there, and it is an unpredictable and seemingly random process. If you keep trying to deal in absolutes and worrying about other people like you are doing then you will drive yourself insane. Just make your app the best you can, hope for the best, and be happy where you end up. That's really all you can do.

 

[flyers]

I'm sure you can understand others' irritation when you are questioning people with more experience than yourself and doubting what is said based on... what you've read on SDN? SDN is a great resource but it isn't the end all be all of medical admissions. If you don't believe what I or others say, that's fine. Your loss. However, I have absolutely zero incentive to make stuff up. Again, I hope you can understand why it might be irritating to be called out by a pre-med that has very little to no actual experience with the process other than reading about it on SDN. It's like being a professional athlete that gets called out and questioned by sports analysts. It's really not even worth the time to respond to in any sort of detail. That doesn't mean the athlete is omniscient or immune to questioning, but I'm going to go with the guy that's actually done stuff versus the guy that just talks about the stuff being done 99/100 times.

1. My talking down comment was aimed at Agent B, not you, because at least you positively contributed to this thread.

2. I was only trying to provide a balanced viewpoint through what LizzyM has posted on here. Why? Because some of the things LizzyM says aren't emphasized enough, leading to misconceptions about the process. Med student input in this forum is invaluable, I'm not bashing it. But there are always two sides to a coin, and it's important to acknowledge that. That's all.

3. On a side note, you do realize that many sports analysts, in particular the more popular ones, are former pro players in their sports right? Of course, this isn't at all applicable to this thread... I know But it was important to mention! lol

 

[CriticalCond]

As an "underdog" in this process, I like to see people being given the benefit of the doubt despite their scores. I'm just stating the fact of what it is like to be an excellent student outside of one aspect of your application and apply to medical school. If I could increase my MCAT score substantially, I would. I'm just not in that position and I am currently doing everything possible to "compensate" for when I reapply. I just don't think there really is any way to compensate (aside from doing the utterly remarkable). If you could see my application now, it is far from bad, but I'm sitting here unsuccessful. So instead of attacking me, please help me understand why my thinking is incorrect when an adcom spelled out that my experience this year is not out of the norm.

I promised myself I would never put this much personal info on the eboards, but I have to say something.

Your OP makes you sound like an entitled, spoiled, brat. There are a lot of people that would be very happy with your scores. It would give them an easy acceptance to ANY medical school, just not the top 50 schools.

This pretty much sums up why people are attacking you, Ppierce. I am one of the people that would give my left arm to have your stats. I'm guessing my LizzyM score is about 9 points below yours, and I have interviews at top 50 schools, even though I too am trying to prepare for reapplication in case that becomes a reality. I have an advantaged background according to the AAMC criteria, did not attend HYPS, am not a Rhodes/Marshall/Fullbright (which you forgot to mention ); I have a LOT of research but as luck would have it NO publications (which I was worried would look bad on my apps), a week abroad, zero policy experience, and no parental or faculty influence. I also have been out of college for several years, but have not done any grad coursework, and I was verified in August.

What I do have is some time and great experiences that give me a different perspective than the one I had when I was in my dorm room dreaming about med school. Even though we all probably know some doctors that make us think, "someone picked YOU?", adcoms really are looking for people who will make compassionate and caring doctors (out of the mouth of someone who was on a UC adcom in the 90s). I see a LOT of snark, ego, and pompous attitudes on SDN that make me scared for what medicine will look like in 15 years. I see it in the barely post-adolescent MS3s who do their rotations at the hospital where I work.

So since you asked, and you say you want this thread to be helpful to future applicants, things I think you could improve that I think have helped me even get my foot in the door: I had AMAZING feedback on my personal statement. I already am a strong writer and I still revised it for the better part of a year. I didn't ask a million people (too many cooks), just a few people selected for their knowledge and insight on the process. I'm not sure, but if I had to guess my LORs are pretty strong. Interview skills can also be practiced. I've done mock interviews whenever I've had the opportunity and received really good advice on questions I would (and have) definitely see.

I don't think you need to give up on attending a top 50 school like some others here, but I do think you need some outside input on what things you can strengthen to improve a future cycle, if you in fact have to reapply.

 

[CriticalCond]

Also, maybe your superiority complex just shone through on your app and that's why you were rejected! I would not hesitate to give a bad review to someone that had brilliant stats/experiences but was condescending or overly competitive in person.

This is probably the best advice I've seen on this thread.

 

[kimposibl]

What, you never passed a bill or two in Congress? Amateur.

Does voting for Obama count as passing legislation on healthcare reform?

 

[1stmeds]

After reading through LizzyM's 2012 QandA session, I've realized why my cycle has been so unsuccessful. The path just isn't that paved for those who only score 30-32 on the MCAT and apply to top 50 programs. In real life and on here I honestly know of only one person (a reapplicant and long time SDN member who changed his handle name on here) who is having a successful season with such an MCAT score. Knowing that I was not the best test taker in the world and that I didn't come from HYPS, I thought there was a way around it, but I am here today telling anyone who will listen that there isn't.

The list of things that will make up for a sub-par MCAT score in the 30-32 range are incredibly short. From my experience they include:

1) URM status
2) Graduating from HYPS. You must have GOOD (to GREAT) letters from faculty from these institutions. The HYPS logos on your letters are key. You also need a GREAT GPA from here: 3.8+.
3) Winning a Rhodes or Marshall. No other awards carry any weight with adcoms. Of course you need to realize that 60%+ of those who win also qualify for #2. That's the kicker here.
4) One to multiple FIRST author publications. They must be first and there is no substitution here. I'm talking peer-reviewed journals only (preferably 4+ index).
5) Years abroad in third world countries making a profound difference that is affirmed by legislation, publications, or letters (from respected individuals). Week trips don't work.
6) Policy legislation. It needs to be profound. You need to take years off after graduation and push through multiple pieces of health care reform.
7) Parents on the faculty. Works every time.

That's pretty much it. As you can see, it's nearly impossible for most average Joe's (like myself) with high ~4.0 GPAs and 30-32 on the MCAT to succeed in the higher tier.

So what won't help. Well, given my credentials above and the fact that I have nearly every one of these things below checked off, I can tell you with certainty that these don't help negate the fact that your MCAT is deemed inferior.

1) High GPA from a school other than HYPS. Doesn't matter, UNLESS it is your ugrad and you are applying to their medical school. It may make a difference then.
2) Letter of recommendation from people other than HYPS. LizzyM said it herself, she doesn't really care about them compared to your numbers.
3) Tons of research. Anything other than a first author publication won't cover any ground with adcoms. The kids who never did research and got 35+ still beat you out.
4) ECs that don't lead to a Rhodes or Marshall (of that caliber). They have to be mind blowing and they have to make up for pedigree. This is nearly impossible. I thought mine were of this caliber, but now I have no idea what is.
5) Awards that aren't Rhodes or Marshall. LizzyM said it herself: she doesn't care about the Goldwater. You can put every other scholarship in list including the Fulbright.
6) Applying later than August. This will absolutely KILL your application. LizzyM said it best, you have to be an all-star from HYPS to get an interview this late.

Again, I'm not talking about kids who numbers absolutely blow, I talking about the middle ground applicants like myself with perfect GPAs, great ECs, and subpar MCATs (30-32).

So what is the best thing you can do to make sure you get a top 50 acceptance. Well be your average Joe BUT get the numbers. Besides being a good student you need the MCAT. Without the MCAT the road is much, much, much harder. Look at LizzyM's post about the cookie-cutter applicant. They have basically done nothing, but their MCAT is superior to the 30-32 slobs like me so they get the kick.

Applying to medical school is wonderful and awe-inspiring. I love it. Have fun. It's wonderful how we judge the future physicians in this country!

perhaps you should spend less time posting on SDN and more time studying for the MCAT.

Seriously, this is so bitter and discouraging to people. You need to add to this list the importance of having a good attitude.

 

[gbc2013]

I think this is an extremely, extremely narrow and jaded definition of what makes a successful applicant. I have a 29 MCAT and I got an interview at Cleveland Clinic (No I'm not lying, no I'm not a troll. Believe me, I almost died when I got that update). I was ultimately rejected, which certainly came as no surprise to me, but I can tell you for a fact that I would never have even gotten that interview if it weren't for the strength of the rest of my application, which included none of the things you listed. Yes, there are certain rules that apply broadly to the application process, and there are some over-the-top ways to show you're "worthy," but there are other ways to show that you should be given the opportunity to interview.

OP, this was incredibly discouraging, and believe me, I wish I would have been in your position instead of sitting on a 29 as a student at a middle of the road liberal arts college.

 

[circulus vitios]

As you can see, it's nearly impossible for most average Joe's (like myself) with high ~4.0 GPAs and 30-32 on the MCAT to succeed in the higher tier.

I really have no idea what the hell a "top 50" school is, but you stand an 82.6% chance of getting into medical school as a white person with a 3.8-4.0 and a 30-32. If you can't stand the idea of not going to a school that falls outside of some arbitrary ranking system that no one outside of US News or a pre-med message board cares about, then that's your own fault.

 

[MelissaThompson]

I think this is an extremely, extremely narrow and jaded definition of what makes a successful applicant. I have a 29 MCAT and I got an interview at Cleveland Clinic (No I'm not lying, no I'm not a troll. Believe me, I almost died when I got that update). I was ultimately rejected, which certainly came as no surprise to me, but I can tell you for a fact that I would never have even gotten that interview if it weren't for the strength of the rest of my application, which included none of the things you listed. Yes, there are certain rules that apply broadly to the application process, and there are some over-the-top ways to show you're "worthy," but there are other ways to show that you should be given the opportunity to interview.

OP, this was incredibly discouraging, and believe me, I wish I would have been in your position instead of sitting on a 29 as a student at a middle of the road liberal arts college.

Could be Cleveland Clinic made a mistake and invited you because of a computer error. LizzyM said it happened at her school.

 

[gbc2013]

Could be Cleveland Clinic made a mistake and invited you because of a computer error. LizzyM said it happened at her school.

Eh, could be. But there are genuinely other reasons beyond what the OP listed that get people interviews. Maybe I'm just an awful example.

 

[nets445]

Congrats to OP for making everyone fall for the biggest troll thread in recent memory. Flatearth22 can learn a thing or two from this guy

 

[487806]

Congrats to OP for making everyone fall for the biggest troll thread in recent memory. Flatearth22 can learn a thing or two from this guy

I'm pretty sure we knew OP was trolling us... except the recent discussion got a bit heated due to a drama halfway in the thread...

 

[nets445]

I'm pretty sure we knew OP was trolling us... except the recent discussion got a bit heated due to a drama halfway in the thread...

ooh i stopped reading after the first couple of posts lol

 

[Ismet]

ooh i stopped reading after the first couple of posts lol

that was a good choice.

 

[487806]

ooh i stopped reading after the first couple of posts lol

Smart move.

 

[galaxyx]

Could be Cleveland Clinic made a mistake and invited you because of a computer error. LizzyM said it happened at her school.

 

[cinamin]

Congrats to OP for making everyone fall for the biggest troll thread in recent memory. Flatearth22 can learn a thing or two from this guy

op is for real..... he/she made several threads just like this one

 

[theamazingbil]

"3) Tons of research. Anything other than a first author publication won't cover any ground with adcoms. The kids who never did research and got 35+ still beat you out."

This is not true at all.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

Got into medical school with only an Olympic Bronze Medal...





but was URM, too


and a Stanford grad


And with regard to that other thread... Yes, women can do orthopedics!

http://espn.go.com/skating/news/2000/0209/345701.html

Damnit, now we have to get medals in the olympics to be competitive. Son of a...

Okay, so, what events look best to adcoms? How would you rank them? Would a bronze in the triathlon be like a silver in archery? And do winter olympic medals count? I mean, certainly a gold in bobsleigh is worth something, right?

 

[Ichiban88]

What an entertaining thread! My PI who is on the admissions said that this cycle's applicants were unusually strong compared to previous years. This probably does not add anything to this thread but just as comfort/encouragement to people in this cycle.

Oh, to add to this thread, obviously, it helps to have those unique gems in your app but i think it is very helpful to be able to strategize and play the game. Not saying that you should say/write solely in a way that is appealing to the adcoms but the ability to convey positive character through your experiences can help a lot. Not all of us have the opportunities, but the key is how you used the opportunities available to you. OP, I am also just a premed so take my advice as a grain of salt.

 

[aspiring20]

What an entertaining thread! My PI who is on the admissions said that this cycle's applicants were unusually strong compared to previous years. This probably does not add anything to this thread but just as comfort/encouragement to people in this cycle.

Oh, to add to this thread, obviously, it helps to have those unique gems in your app but i think it is very helpful to be able to strategize and play the game. Not saying that you should say/write solely in a way that is appealing to the adcoms but the ability to convey positive character through your experiences can help a lot. Not all of us have the opportunities, but the key is how you used the opportunities available to you. OP, I am also just a premed so take my advice as a grain of salt.

and next year's applicants will also be unusually strong compared to previous years, and the next one, so on and so forth....

this is not good. when will there be a dip?

 

[darklabel]

and next year's applicants will also be unusually strong compared to previous years, and the next one, so on and so forth....

this is not good. when will there be a dip?

Until the economy improves and people see other jobs as attainable. Realize there are a lot of people going back to school, re-applicants applying again and so on. Becoming a doctor is one of the few almost guarantee tickets to getting a 6 figure job (or even a job at all!).

I'm sure even DO schools have experienced an unexpectedly large number of strong applicants. This is good thing in general, but a bad thing for us applying.

Also realize that the averages only creep up a little (can only go so high and I doubt 4.0 will be the average), the PI probably meant that A LOT more are hitting 3.8+ and high MCAT scores than ever before (as well as above average E.C.'s I'm sure). This is why people on SDN who complain about not getting in anywhere should realize its tough out there and A LOT of people who should go to medical school won't.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

and next year's applicants will also be unusually strong compared to previous years, and the next one, so on and so forth....

this is not good. when will there be a dip?

The birthrate of Gen Y rose from the late 70s onward, peaked around the early/mid 90s, and declined after that. It is, in fact, the largest generation ever (hence why in addition to being called "millennials" they're also called "echo boomers"). As a result, if you were born during that peak, you've had the most competition of any US generation ever for scholarships, awards, admissions, etc., and that's going to follow you for the rest of your life. It gets even "better" when you consider the cultural pressure placed on Gen Y to attend higher education, as well as the Great Recession swelling applications to grad schools even more.

However, you'll recall that I said the peak of Gen Y births ended in the early 90s. As a result, kids who are roughly 16 have it easier than the 17 year olds, and it gets better the younger you are. In fact, the amount of high school students in the country has been declining since 2009 when they hit their peak. So the answer is that med school competitiveness should begin slowly cooling down again in about 3-4 years once those 2009 high school freshmen have passed through the system leaving behind the smaller, younger classes. Of course, that means that each year until then things are going to get worse and worse, with 2015 or 2016 being the worst year in history for med school applicants (you might recognize the significance of 2015 in med school admissions for a couple of other reasons; I'd be willing to bet that's not a coincidence).

So basically Gen Y was the worst generation to be born in, and will remain so until Gen Y starts having kids of their own at which point those poor SOBs will be as worse off compared to us as we are compared to the baby boomers.

 

[aspiring20]

i am applying june of 2014...so that means i might have it EVEN worse?

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

i am applying june of 2014...so that means i might have it EVEN worse?

Look on the bright side: You still won't have it as bad as 2015 and maybe 2016. So you're only going to be part of the 2nd or 3rd worst off applicant class in the history of med school admissions

 

[aspiring20]

Look on the bright side: You still won't have it as bad as 2015 and maybe 2016. So you're only going to be part of the 2nd or 3rd worst off applicant class in the history of med school admissions

there's a good chances i wont get in the first time...

if that's the case and i dont get in during the 2014-2015 cycle, then i am gonna put it off for 3-5 years before trying again. and yes, that means taking the new MCAT in addition to the current MCAT i am scheduled for this May.

my peers who graduated with me last june are currently MS1s. looks like i'll never be on their level in this lifetime. all because of a few stupid decisions/unfortunate circumstances that happened during undergrad...

but that's life.

 

[flodhi1]

After reading through LizzyM's 2012 QandA session, I've realized why my cycle has been so unsuccessful. The path just isn't that paved for those who only score 30-32 on the MCAT and apply to top 50 programs. In real life and on here I honestly know of only one person (a reapplicant and long time SDN member who changed his handle name on here) who is having a successful season with such an MCAT score. Knowing that I was not the best test taker in the world and that I didn't come from HYPS, I thought there was a way around it, but I am here today telling anyone who will listen that there isn't.

The list of things that will make up for a sub-par MCAT score in the 30-32 range are incredibly short. From my experience they include:

1) URM status
2) Graduating from HYPS. You must have GOOD (to GREAT) letters from faculty from these institutions. The HYPS logos on your letters are key. You also need a GREAT GPA from here: 3.8+.
3) Winning a Rhodes or Marshall. No other awards carry any weight with adcoms. Of course you need to realize that 60%+ of those who win also qualify for #2. That's the kicker here.
4) One to multiple FIRST author publications. They must be first and there is no substitution here. I'm talking peer-reviewed journals only (preferably 4+ index).
5) Years abroad in third world countries making a profound difference that is affirmed by legislation, publications, or letters (from respected individuals). Week trips don't work.
6) Policy legislation. It needs to be profound. You need to take years off after graduation and push through multiple pieces of health care reform.
7) Parents on the faculty. Works every time.

That's pretty much it. As you can see, it's nearly impossible for most average Joe's (like myself) with high ~4.0 GPAs and 30-32 on the MCAT to succeed in the higher tier.

So what won't help. Well, given my credentials above and the fact that I have nearly every one of these things below checked off, I can tell you with certainty that these don't help negate the fact that your MCAT is deemed inferior.

1) High GPA from a school other than HYPS. Doesn't matter, UNLESS it is your ugrad and you are applying to their medical school. It may make a difference then.
2) Letter of recommendation from people other than HYPS. LizzyM said it herself, she doesn't really care about them compared to your numbers.
3) Tons of research. Anything other than a first author publication won't cover any ground with adcoms. The kids who never did research and got 35+ still beat you out.
4) ECs that don't lead to a Rhodes or Marshall (of that caliber). They have to be mind blowing and they have to make up for pedigree. This is nearly impossible. I thought mine were of this caliber, but now I have no idea what is.
5) Awards that aren't Rhodes or Marshall. LizzyM said it herself: she doesn't care about the Goldwater. You can put every other scholarship in list including the Fulbright.
6) Applying later than August. This will absolutely KILL your application. LizzyM said it best, you have to be an all-star from HYPS to get an interview this late.

Again, I'm not talking about kids who numbers absolutely blow, I talking about the middle ground applicants like myself with perfect GPAs, great ECs, and subpar MCATs (30-32).

So what is the best thing you can do to make sure you get a top 50 acceptance. Well be your average Joe BUT get the numbers. Besides being a good student you need the MCAT. Without the MCAT the road is much, much, much harder. Look at LizzyM's post about the cookie-cutter applicant. They have basically done nothing, but their MCAT is superior to the 30-32 slobs like me so they get the kick.

Applying to medical school is wonderful and awe-inspiring. I love it. Have fun. It's wonderful how we judge the future physicians in this country!

You scored a 41 on the MCAT. I think this conversation ends right there. Your medical school says it best....they only interview students with 34-38 on the MCAT. There is literally no way around it besides being incredibly out of the norm.

Yes, flyers. I'm sorrry, I wasn't very clear about it in my first post. I'm only talking about OOS right now. In state is a different ballgame unless we are talking about Umich or one of the Cali schools.

Look, I'm not saying that I am a bitter prick or anything like that. I'm am literally very happy for you. As an "underdog" in this process, I like to see people being given the benefit of the doubt despite their scores. I'm just stating the fact of what it is like to be an excellent student outside of one aspect of your application and apply to medical school. If I could increase my MCAT score substantially, I would. I'm just not in that position and I am currently doing everything possible to "compensate" for when I reapply. I just don't think there really is any way to compensate (aside from doing the utterly remarkable). If you could see my application now, it is far from bad, but I'm sitting here unsuccessful. So instead of attacking me, please help me understand why my thinking is incorrect when an adcom spelled out that my experience this year is not out of the norm.

Congrats though, I hope you end up matching a specialty of your choice and have a fruitful career.

Again, please note that I'm not just talking about getting in anywhere. Sure there are a lot of kids sitting in seats at Drexel or Wayne state with the stats I'm describing. I'm just trying to say that average applicants (as I've defined above) stand literally no chance at the top 40-50 schools because admissions has become so number driven to the point where anyone with under a 34-35 is deemed unqualified (unless they hit the marks I described above). I've read many LizzyM posts, and she she seems to be the real deal and tells things how adcoms at here level perceive students. This forum is meant to help students, and I'm just trying to paint the other side of the picture that just doesn't get discussed enough.

Yes, but let's be real here. Those kids who get into Uchicago with under a 34 are definately on that list I described in my first post. The difference between students who get rejected from top schools with top stats and those with low (30-32) is that the top stats will inevitably get accepted by another top school. Don't look at it like that. Those of us with low stats hope for one interview from a top school and have such a slim margin of error it's not even funny. One slip up and we are done. The margin of error gets larger and larger as your MCAT creeps up.

Are you talking about UWashington by any chance? Is it a state school? I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear in my opening post, I only referring to private institutions (for the most part).

See, this just wasn't me. I really had a passion for what I did. I did it (well several great things) every day of the week for years at a time even while holding a heavy work-load. If that didn't show dedication, I honestly don't know what ever will. I was sincere. I also described this in my essays and descriptions because I have had to do similar types of writing when applying for collegiate and national awards. Just, none of it matters at this level it seems. Try hard on the MCAT and in school, it's just too hard to make it back up when they deem your academics inferior. Good luck.

OP, I'm going to keep this short and sweet. If you spend even 10 % of the time and energy you're literally wasting whining about the application process towards actually improving your application, YOU WILL BE IN THE "top 5".

 

[impact2d]

I scored in that range. I've had 3 interviews at schools between 40-60 rankings. I have had 2 between 25-40 interviews. My GPA is very high, but most of all I think I just worked really hard to be genuine, convey passion, professionalism, teamwork, and leadership on interviews. I also worked really hard on my personal statement and developing great relationships with LOR writers. I have great community service, but little to no research. So far on every interview they've mentioned one of my LORs and service work. IMHO, 30-32 does not keep anyone out of anything but possibly the top 20ish, it won't open any doors by itself either. It's the applicants job to work their tail off and demonstrate a great work ethic and character. Add in great LORs and maturity gained through experiences, and it is possible to get into a 25-50 ranked school without curing cancer, being a URM, etc.

 

[Geebeejay]

I scored in that range. I've had 3 interviews at schools between 40-60 rankings. I have had 2 between 25-40 interviews. My GPA is very high, but most of all I think I just worked really hard to be genuine, convey passion, professionalism, teamwork, and leadership on interviews. I also worked really hard on my personal statement and developing great relationships with LOR writers. I have great community service, but little to no research. So far on every interview they've mentioned one of my LORs and service work. IMHO, 30-32 does not keep anyone out of anything but possibly the top 20ish, it won't open any doors by itself either. It's the applicants job to work their tail off and demonstrate a great work ethic and character. Add in great LORs and maturity gained through experiences, and it is possible to get into a 25-50 ranked school without curing cancer, being a URM, etc.

Unless you consider the opportunity to interview for consideration for admission to medical school to be a "door".

 

[physiologist]

After reading through LizzyM's 2012 QandA session, I've realized why my cycle has been so unsuccessful. The path just isn't that paved for those who only score 30-32 on the MCAT and apply to top 50 programs. In real life and on here I honestly know of only one person (a reapplicant and long time SDN member who changed his handle name on here) who is having a successful season with such an MCAT score. Knowing that I was not the best test taker in the world and that I didn't come from HYPS, I thought there was a way around it, but I am here today telling anyone who will listen that there isn't.

The list of things that will make up for a sub-par MCAT score in the 30-32 range are incredibly short. From my experience they include:

1) URM status
2) Graduating from HYPS. You must have GOOD (to GREAT) letters from faculty from these institutions. The HYPS logos on your letters are key. You also need a GREAT GPA from here: 3.8+.
3) Winning a Rhodes or Marshall. No other awards carry any weight with adcoms. Of course you need to realize that 60%+ of those who win also qualify for #2. That's the kicker here.
4) One to multiple FIRST author publications. They must be first and there is no substitution here. I'm talking peer-reviewed journals only (preferably 4+ index).
5) Years abroad in third world countries making a profound difference that is affirmed by legislation, publications, or letters (from respected individuals). Week trips don't work.
6) Policy legislation. It needs to be profound. You need to take years off after graduation and push through multiple pieces of health care reform.
7) Parents on the faculty. Works every time.

That's pretty much it. As you can see, it's nearly impossible for most average Joe's (like myself) with high ~4.0 GPAs and 30-32 on the MCAT to succeed in the higher tier.

So what won't help. Well, given my credentials above and the fact that I have nearly every one of these things below checked off, I can tell you with certainty that these don't help negate the fact that your MCAT is deemed inferior.

1) High GPA from a school other than HYPS. Doesn't matter, UNLESS it is your ugrad and you are applying to their medical school. It may make a difference then.
2) Letter of recommendation from people other than HYPS. LizzyM said it herself, she doesn't really care about them compared to your numbers.
3) Tons of research. Anything other than a first author publication won't cover any ground with adcoms. The kids who never did research and got 35+ still beat you out.
4) ECs that don't lead to a Rhodes or Marshall (of that caliber). They have to be mind blowing and they have to make up for pedigree. This is nearly impossible. I thought mine were of this caliber, but now I have no idea what is.
5) Awards that aren't Rhodes or Marshall. LizzyM said it herself: she doesn't care about the Goldwater. You can put every other scholarship in list including the Fulbright.
6) Applying later than August. This will absolutely KILL your application. LizzyM said it best, you have to be an all-star from HYPS to get an interview this late.

Again, I'm not talking about kids who numbers absolutely blow, I talking about the middle ground applicants like myself with perfect GPAs, great ECs, and subpar MCATs (30-32).

So what is the best thing you can do to make sure you get a top 50 acceptance. Well be your average Joe BUT get the numbers. Besides being a good student you need the MCAT. Without the MCAT the road is much, much, much harder. Look at LizzyM's post about the cookie-cutter applicant. They have basically done nothing, but their MCAT is superior to the 30-32 slobs like me so they get the kick.

Applying to medical school is wonderful and awe-inspiring. I love it. Have fun. It's wonderful how we judge the future physicians in this country!

I have a 3.5 gpa, 30-32 MCAT, and 4 interviews from amazing schools. I also don't have anything on your above checklist (but everything on your below checklist).

3 of these schools are top-40.

You really have to be genuine and captivate the adcom with great writing if you have any zits. Heck, in that sense I have full-blown acne! I'm a first-gen science student.

You also have to be very lucky. You have stats I'd kill for (well not literally kill since that goes against "first do no harm" but you know what I mean). This means that if you come out of this cycle empty handed you'll need to try again.

That being said, it's not over yet! I just got an interview yesterday! It ain't over till the fat lady sings (Her concert is booked for sometime between the end of February and the middle of march)

Advice for when you try again if it comes to that:
1) build on your ECs. Try to do something non-cookie-cutter. I was a clown who performed in hospitals, for example.
2) you have amazing stats but no interviews, which means your app either fell flat or has red flags. Carefully read trough your app and start your PS and EC descriptions from scratch. Make then sound exciting by using as much active language as possible. Emphasize how they made you grow as a person. Focus on personal development because a doctor is always a work in progress because the field is very dynamic.
3) send it on June 1st and finish secondaries ASAP.
4) get new referees for this time around.

I could tell you with 100% certainty that it was not your gpa or MCAT that sunk your ship. It was something else or a lack of something else somewhere else in your app.

Good luck!

 

[darklabel]

The birthrate of Gen Y rose from the late 70s onward, peaked around the early/mid 90s, and declined after that. It is, in fact, the largest generation ever (hence why in addition to being called "millennials" they're also called "echo boomers"). As a result, if you were born during that peak, you've had the most competition of any US generation ever for scholarships, awards, admissions, etc., and that's going to follow you for the rest of your life. It gets even "better" when you consider the cultural pressure placed on Gen Y to attend higher education, as well as the Great Recession swelling applications to grad schools even more.

However, you'll recall that I said the peak of Gen Y births ended in the early 90s. As a result, kids who are roughly 16 have it easier than the 17 year olds, and it gets better the younger you are. In fact, the amount of high school students in the country has been declining since 2009 when they hit their peak. So the answer is that med school competitiveness should begin slowly cooling down again in about 3-4 years once those 2009 high school freshmen have passed through the system leaving behind the smaller, younger classes. Of course, that means that each year until then things are going to get worse and worse, with 2015 or 2016 being the worst year in history for med school applicants (you might recognize the significance of 2015 in med school admissions for a couple of other reasons; I'd be willing to bet that's not a coincidence).

So basically Gen Y was the worst generation to be born in, and will remain so until Gen Y starts having kids of their own at which point those poor SOBs will be as worse off compared to us as we are compared to the baby boomers.

Whole-heartedly agree except economy has something to do with it as well. When people are constantly telling you health care is the only one with rising employment and parents pressure Gen Y to go to medical school or anything medically related then you get a net increase of people trying for medical school. IIRC, for my school we saw the largest enrollment of students who declare themselves Pre-Med ever . While a lot may drop off, there is a significant sum that will stay until the application process.

 

[OPanchor]

I think this is a little silly, although a bit depressing too . You say what can the average Joe do to get into these top schools... well didn't you kind of answer it yourself? They're TOP schools for a reason. Average Joes most likely are not a fit there! Best of luck in your future endeavors. (Sorry for the bump, was just surfing this )

 

[487806]

I think this is a little silly, although a bit depressing too . You say what can the average Joe do to get into these top schools... well didn't you kind of answer it yourself? They're TOP schools for a reason. Average Joes most likely are not a fit there! Best of luck in your future endeavors. (Sorry for the bump, was just surfing this )

You really shouldn't have bumped this thread.

But good point though.

 

[Anathema]

Average Joe with those numbers. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

Almost as stupid as the Adcom rigor thread.