"Things I learn" & "Medicine Sucks" discussion thread

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I've only read through page 23 but I had to join to tell you that this forum has given me a lot of understanding of my ortho doc bro's frustration with patching up the same GSW's over and over etc. I thought he was "losing his compassion." I have been humbly humbled. Thanks for that!

My story is this:

When my son was about 3 or 4 (late '80's) I was at the driving range trying out my 3 wood - friend watching my son lost sight of him, so jaw meets club in back swing. Off to children's ED, numbed with lidocaine patch and a couple stitches. His main problem - freaking out having his head covered by the sterile cloth.

Aside from worrying what his preschool would think when he told them "mommy, hit me with a golf club," he looked good as new.

A few weeks later, playing kick ball at the park, mommy (me) runs into home base. No, literally, home base was an iron bench in the park. I'm sure this was my great idea to begin with. So, I split my knee wide open. Back for stitches (why does this stuff only happen on the weekend or after hours?) for me this time.

I ask the doc if I may use this as a teaching tool for my son. I knew I could show him that getting stitches was no big deal. This was when I assumed the ER doc would numb me with a patch too. But no, my son got to watch mommy get about 4 shots of lidocaine in the knee with mommy smiling (grimacing?) the whole time.

Peace out, healers, I love you and your sense of humor too. Thanks for making this ol' gal laugh.

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I'm not a doctor but I do have a "from the other side of the curtain" story. I live in PA and winters here have become goofy in the past few years. So when I was about 24 or so(I'm 40 now) I decided to go to the car wash to get the grime off of my car because it was a beautiful above average temperature day. So I'm in the bay washing my car and there was some ice I didn't see. Boom! I fall flat on my butt. Hit my thumb on the car on the way down but other than that no injuries except to my pride.

So I go home pop a couple of Advil and go out clubbing with my friends(this was before the whole don't mix Advil and alcohol thing). I had a great time no aches, no pains and no signs of what was to come. My thumb was a tad sore but no biggie. I get up the next day and I am in excruciating pain. I could not stand upright to save my life. I was hunch over like a little old lady and I could only take baby steps without it hurting, I tried calling tele-nurse(b/c that's what out HMO at the time required) and she tells me to put a piece of plywood in between my mattress and box spring...uhhhh too late damage done. I call back again and beg to speak to the doctor on call. I explain the situation and he said "It sounds like you're in a lot of pain" I told him I was. He gave approval for me to go to the ER. My dad offers to drive me but I told him no, it couldn't possible be anything that serious.

I get called back by the nurse and I explain what happened. I forget why but the first thing she wanted was a urine sample. So I head on down to the ladies room with my specimen cup. I get done providing my sample and I go to put the lid on and the entire cup is filled with BLOOD. I don't know what but my first reaction was to dump it down the toilet but I didn't. I came out of the ladies room and the nurse sees the cup. She said "did you just do this now?" I told her I did and she asked me if I had my period. Nope. Had it the week before. She told me to get back into bed immediately and starts screaming "DOCTOR!! DOCTOR!!" Doctor comes in and says I see you have a little urine mixed in with your blood...ha ha..really funny.

So they call the urologist on call to come in. He wanted them to do an iodine test(I think that's what it was) before he got there. Once that stuff hits your veins it's like your hole body is on fire.The Urologist gets there and tells me that I ripped and bruised my kidney. I needed to be on bed rest for 2 weeks and after the 2 weeks they would know if I would lose that kidney or not. Thankfully my kidney did repair itself and all is well again. They could not believe I didn't hit anything on the way down due to the severity of the injury. I just had a normal fall.

Funny enough to me was what scared me the most was the nurse running down the hallway screaming for a doctor. Just for future reference to any budding nurses..running down a hallway screaming for a doctor will not calm down the patient. It only makes them freak out even more.

Before any asks why didn't I see the sign that says the bays maybe slippery.. it was because I chose the ONLY bay that did not have that sign. I didn't pick it on purpose it was just the next available stall. Now unless it's an automatic car wash I have a phobia about washing my car by hand...lol. Good thing hubby loves it enough to make sure it's in pristine condition.
 
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Hi All,

This has got to be one of the funniest threads I've found on here.
While I'm not in EM (just a lowly pre-med), I have some funny ER stories.

It is a good idea to smoke so much weed that you think you can fly and then pass out. When your friends leave you passed out and face down in the parking lot in the rain, be grateful that they had the sense to call EMS for you. When EMS picks you up, it is a great idea to complain about how you're going to die and how much your life sucks. In fact, it is a great idea to piss off all the nurses in the ER so much that they ask you why you "have sand in your vagina" and lecture you about how you had the privilege to actually have an ambulance ride to the ER while people had to walk in the rain.

It is also a good idea to call 911 after you take too many 'shrooms complaining of being too high. They're only going to give you anti-anxiety meds and watch you come down.

Hugging the homeless in the ER reminds them that they can get a warm bed and a sandwich when they are too drunk. (My friend did this...)

And something that you actually should do: Be nice to the nurses! When I showed up in the ER after foolishly deciding to drink over half a bottle of Cuervo in 45 minutes, use your manners! The Nurses will make sure you don't have to sleep next to the woman coming down from meth who keeps asking you why you're next to her and will give you more blankets. I apparently was the nicest patient they would have all month.
I'm really sorry that you all don't get treated well in the ER! You'd think that you should be nice to the people who are trying to help you. :)
 
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Amazing thread. I’m a pre-med student right now, at least until this Friday when The E-mail comes out (they let us know via e-mail first, then you get the letters if you are lucky).

Here’s one I learned from my former volleyball coach who was also a physiotherapist at a hospital in South America.

If the surgeons put the FB they removed from you in a box that also contains the unclaimed FBs removed from other patients’ rectums (recti?) and you find a beautiful pen there, feel free to take it for your girlfriend. Act surprised when she shows up to pick you up, shows off her “new” pen and gets told where that pen had been just a few evenings earlier. Start looking for new girlfriend.
 
If the surgeons put the FB they removed from you in a box that also contains the unclaimed FBs removed from other patients’ rectums (recti?) and you find a beautiful pen there, feel free to take it for your girlfriend. Act surprised when she shows up to pick you up, shows off her “new” pen and gets told where that pen had been just a few evenings earlier. Start looking for new girlfriend.

Anyone else catch that this was an episode from Scrubs?
 
I had a lady come into my office with a vibrator stuck up her butt. naturally I said "Ok, lets get you in the room and the Doc will come in to take it out"

She gets all confused and says, "Take it out!? I Just want the batteries changed!"
 
Anyone else catch that this was an episode from Scrubs?

As I said, I got it second-hand, but I was told that story in 2003 in Argentina. Not sure Scrubs was playing there then.
 
I had a lady come into my office with a vibrator stuck up her butt. naturally I said "Ok, lets get you in the room and the Doc will come in to take it out"

She gets all confused and says, "Take it out!? I Just want the batteries changed!"

Eh. I still don't think anything beats the contraceptive "jelly" episode of House. Although, the asthma inhaler idiot comes close.:laugh:
 
I just finished all 62 pages (does this make me pre-qualified for an EM residency)? and oddly enough, my story isn't in here yet, so here goes:

It is true that your roommate (me) is nothing but a lowly premed orthopod wannabe. It is also true that his sole source of medical knowledge is a well-thumbed copy of Where There is No Doctor. It is also true that this book was not in fact written by a real doctor. However, you should still believe him when he states that there is no possible way that sitting around reading your Bible can cause blood to show up in both your pee and poo, and that only getting shot or stabbed can cause that. You should not believe the 911 dispatcher, or even ask her for medical advice in the first place.

If, however, you ignore these facts and choose to have your roommate drive you to the ER at 1:30 AM, don't expect much sympathy when you complain about how the nurse obtained the stool sample. You will find even less sympathy when the urine and stool do not test positive for blood, but do test positive for the quart of beet juice you drank two hours ago.
 
I just finished all 62 pages (does this make me pre-qualified for an EM residency)? and oddly enough, my story isn't in here yet, so here goes:

It is true that your roommate (me) is nothing but a lowly premed orthopod wannabe. It is also true that his sole source of medical knowledge is a well-thumbed copy of Where There is No Doctor. It is also true that this book was not in fact written by a real doctor. However, you should still believe him when he states that there is no possible way that sitting around reading your Bible can cause blood to show up in both your pee and poo, and that only getting shot or stabbed can cause that. You should not believe the 911 dispatcher, or even ask her for medical advice in the first place.

If, however, you ignore these facts and choose to have your roommate drive you to the ER at 1:30 AM, don't expect much sympathy when you complain about how the nurse obtained the stool sample. You will find even less sympathy when the urine and stool do not test positive for blood, but do test positive for the quart of beet juice you drank two hours ago.

"Before making a fuss about having bloody poop, remember you drank a quart of beet juice 2 hours ago."

Done. 1 sentence, same message. Brevity is key

-El duderino
 
"Before making a fuss about having bloody poop, remember you drank a quart of beet juice 2 hours ago."

Done. 1 sentence, same message. Brevity is key

-El duderino

Hey, I'm a history major, not a harried ER doc. A good story is all in the telling.
 
I just finished all 62 pages (does this make me pre-qualified for an EM residency)? and oddly enough, my story isn't in here yet, so here goes:

It is true that your roommate (me) is nothing but a lowly premed orthopod wannabe. It is also true that his sole source of medical knowledge is a well-thumbed copy of Where There is No Doctor. It is also true that this book was not in fact written by a real doctor. However, you should still believe him when he states that there is no possible way that sitting around reading your Bible can cause blood to show up in both your pee and poo, and that only getting shot or stabbed can cause that. You should not believe the 911 dispatcher, or even ask her for medical advice in the first place.

If, however, you ignore these facts and choose to have your roommate drive you to the ER at 1:30 AM, don't expect much sympathy when you complain about how the nurse obtained the stool sample. You will find even less sympathy when the urine and stool do not test positive for blood, but do test positive for the quart of beet juice you drank two hours ago.

If you've read this whole thread you should know that sitting around reading one's Bible, is one of the most dangerous things one can do. Your roommate got off easy, probably because he wasn't on the porch.
 
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Another one from the other side of the table:

Just because your psych patient appears to have an indepth knowledge of various psychiatric medications, that does not mean you should call said patient, and ask their opinion on a medication you're considering prescribing someone else. You're the Doctor, capiche? :rolleyes:
 
Another one from the other side of the table:

Just because your psych patient appears to have an indepth knowledge of various psychiatric medications, that does not mean you should call said patient, and ask their opinion on a medication you're considering prescribing someone else. You're the Doctor, capiche? :rolleyes:

I dunno...kind of makes sense to me that a doctor might do so. After all, as said on a page regarding psychiatry, a doctor of psychiatry is expected by patients to have a much more intellectually correct understanding, and an educated ability to diagnose and medicate FROM that point...but if the doc, themselves, is on meds, it kind of destroys that trust bond, as a smart nutcase understands that a nut treating a nut is likely to attract squirrels, not make solid progress.

So a patient who educates themselves on the specific medications that can, or are, used in their treatment, and has experience with many of them, in that phase we all go through, of trying many different meds, in different combinations and doses, to find the one that works for us (a highly personal/individually successful thing), their experience "from inside", combined with a knowledge in the specific area *might* make them a semi-valid information source for a "rough consult".

For instance, having your doc tell you he has a patient with similar issues who is giving complaints about other meds, and their "problems", I could see calling a pateint with a fairly in-depth knowledge, and saying "this patient says depakote and prozac in combination will pull him out of suicidal depression, but that he says he "feels wrong, kind of fuzzy", so what helped YOU the most when we were trying the same combination? Oh, dropping the Prozac, keeping Ability, adding a low dose of welbutrin, reducing depakote, and adding lamictal is what brought you closer to "feeling more normal", but was fairly effective?"

In a case like that, the doctor isn't asking MEDICAL advice, he's asking for experiential information. And it makes sense, in a way, that one might do so. Liken it to an artist, doing a painting, and asking you, the non artist, but serious student of art appreciation, what technique HE thinks he'd most appreciate, in what medium, to convey a certain emotional state, and a good piece of art, at the same time. An artist's job is to inspire emotional response in others, he may ask an understanding "critic" for what they've found to be more effective, or more attractive, in evoking a certain type or group of emotional responses, when approaching a new painting...but he's still an artist, he may or may not respond to educated inside observation, but it's quite fair of him to ask for it, nobody will think him less "professional", or say "you're the artist, capiche?"
 
ArmyBoy - Just to clarify, this was a GP, and it wasn't a case of 'what helped you the best in this very similar situation to yours, I just wanted to get a patient's perspective', it was quite literally 'Here are the patients symptoms, what should I prescribe them?' One of the most bizarre phone calls I've gotten in my life to be honest. I mean I've had Doctors pull some pretty dodgy ****, but this was seriously like landing in the friggin' Twilight zone.

On a slightly related noted:

Just because I'm a new patient, and you've just taken over the previous Doctor's practice, I really don't need to be told 'Yeah, I took over Dr X's patient list after Doctor X committed suicide, because he was busted rorting the medicare system'. Why on earth would you think I needed to know that. :confused:
 
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Ahhh. I follow, Ceke, and yes, in those circumstances, it'd be disturbing as hell.
 
Ahhh. I follow, Ceke, and yes, in those circumstances, it'd be disturbing as hell.

Yeah it was rather. What made it worse was the fact that he was actually a really good Doctor otherwise. I honestly think it was just a lapse in judgment after he'd gotten too stressed out from taking on too heavy a patient load. I know shortly afterwards he cut back on his hours, and on the number of new patients he'd accept to his practice.
 
Funny enough to me was what scared me the most was the nurse running down the hallway screaming for a doctor. Just for future reference to any budding nurses..running down a hallway screaming for a doctor will not calm down the patient. It only makes them freak out even more.

I've had the same, only from a Doctor not a Nurse. Fell 15 feet through a ceiling, landed on my backside, jarred my back pretty good. I managed to call an ambulance, & got carted off to hospital. I figured it was just bruising, maybe a bit of muscle spasm, perhaps a slipped disc at the most, nothing really to worry about too much. And then the doc who examined me starts barking orders at the nurses that I'm not too be moved without being given a shot of Fentanyl first. The way he said it, I went from not being overly concerned to 'OMG, there must be something really wrong, what if I'm going to end up paralysed?' :eek: The main nurse who was taking care of me ignored the Doctor's orders and refused to give me the Fetanyl, before she tried to send me to X-ray, and I completely freaked out. I must have looked like the world's biggest drug seeker screaming for Narcotics, and the fact that I actually am a former addict, with an obvious track mark scar on my arm certainly wouldn't have helped. All I knew at the time was me being moved without being given Fetanyl first = something very bad was gonna happen.
 
Hey, I'm a history major, not a harried ER doc. A good story is all in the telling.

So, you're telling me, you and mac got locked in a stairwell for 20 or so minutes before the security guard let you out?
 
And I observed that being patient doesn't slow one's treatment down at all. The longer it takes, the better your chances of survival.

how very true. when people complain how long it takes when they go to the emergency dept (clumsy friends on facebook), i'm going to have to use this one. the day you go to the ED and get treated quickly, it's either a slow day or you're actively dying!
 
Found out with my grandfather that one of the best persons to have a stroke next too is your wife that is a physician assistant.

Thankfully a minor stroke with no damage other then some balance issues. The problem is that they had to put him on bloodthinners.... He is one of the worst people to put on bloodthinners with some of the crap he's pulled.
 
Forgot about one incident around 10-15 years ago. I found out that despite being a man in his 60's my grandfather decided it would be a good idea to cut down a tree. Well the chainsaw slipped and he cut a rather deep wound in his leg. He goes for help but the neighbors aren't home. Since the ambulance would take too long for him he decides to tie his bandanna around the wound and drive himself to the local ER. Somehow he managed to not hit anything major like nerves or veins and walks out of there a few hours later with only a whole bunch of stitches.
 
I'm up to page 41 of this thread, and it's seriously cutting into my sleep time! Thanks guys :)

In the same vein as the Tooth to Tattoo Ratio, I just wanted to add my personal favourite: the Inverse Law of Blood Borne Contamination, whereby the higher the likelihood of you having a blood borne contagious disease, the lower the likelihood that you will keep your bodily fluids to yourself.
 
Genius neighbors.

"Guy's camping trip" that consists of four ex-felons, one "I got away with it, so far" guy, a full rear SUV seat worth of beer cases, and multiple firearms, some of which would be illegal in the hands of anyone. Three off-road vehicles (2 quads and a bike), one helmet. In the high Cascades, along one of the steepest falling rivers in the US.


Planned trip: Thurs-Sun

Actual events...total drunk-out Thurs evening, after arriving, Fri morning, wake up drunk, proceed to drink more, to "stave off the hangover", get on the off-roaders, put the helmet on the guy on the bike, put two others on each quad, follow closely.

Bike hits nasty root, throws rider. First quad hits the bike, throws rear passenger over driver, slams driver's chin into handlebars, gives rear quad good skid plate (rider somewhat protected from this by a backpack full of beer cans), passenger on 2nd quad bails before impact, driver gets thrown forward, slams chest on handlebars, faceplants on beer filled backpack, breaks both cheekbones and nose, flips, so his back hits the handlebars of the fist quad, the rear frame of the bike, then tumbles him carwheeling headfirst into a tree.

Friday evening:Worst injured (driver from 2nd quad) checks out of hospital AMA, still disoriented, head swollen, minor bleeding, intermittent, from right ear, can't see properly, dark brown urine, bruise all the way across lower back, crease in right side of forehead a new addition.

Monday...none of these gents can walk without showing stiffness and other signs of pain. Worst injured (my neighbor) has not been back to doctor, had friend "re-set" his nose with two pencils, cheekbones untreated. Swelling down, still disoriented, but not as much as at first (when he didn't even know who HE was), still can't see clearly, still blood in urine, crease still there, less common, but bleeding from ear still occurs.

And Monday, 5PM? You guessed it, Fireworks and beer...copious amounts of beer...consumed by all the injureds.

not a TtT proof, but certainly a principal of inverse value example (the less society NEEDS them, the more likely they are to remain a part of it)
 
nicely done, docB...

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Yay for me!

I did it on a moped that I modified myself with no helmet, flip flops and after "2 beers."

That's just how I roll.

Awesome!

So, when you hit 88 MPH, did you go back in time? Oh wait, you weren't in a DeLorean. NVM!
 
I'm trying to figure out how to send pizzas to the ED that treated me a few months ago so it comes from the pizza place directly (less creepy, i'd hope, than food brought in by a random person off the street) but without anyone there having to sign for it.

You could go into the pizza place in person and order the pizzas to be delayed at a specific time and pay for it there. I've done it before at Pizza Hut, not sure if other places do that, though.
 
Yay for me!

I did it on a moped that I modified myself with no helmet, flip flops and after "2 beers."

That's just how I roll.
You say this as if riding like this is a bad thing. Aside from the barley and hops fermented beverage part, that's an ideal way to ride, if you're hitting that kind of speed. As a doc, you know all a helmet will do at 45mph+ is change a crippling crash that follows with tons of medical bills on your family, with your loss of ability to aid for a messy, but likely very quick, death.

Sorry...I'm a "no helmet law for adults" supporter (kids, of course, should have helmet legislation until they are legally "adult"...incapable of making informed or responsible choice). I'd rather my family collect life insurance, than support me in this sort of situation.
 
You say this as if riding like this is a bad thing. Aside from the barley and hops fermented beverage part, that's an ideal way to ride, if you're hitting that kind of speed. As a doc, you know all a helmet will do at 45mph+ is change a crippling crash that follows with tons of medical bills on your family, with your loss of ability to aid for a messy, but likely very quick, death.

Sorry...I'm a "no helmet law for adults" supporter (kids, of course, should have helmet legislation until they are legally "adult"...incapable of making informed or responsible choice). I'd rather my family collect life insurance, than support me in this sort of situation.

Every time I see someone on a motorcycle without a helmet, I just think to myself "there goes another potential organ donor."
 
Every time I see someone on a motorcycle without a helmet, I just think to myself "there goes another potential organ donor."
Yup...got that box checked on my license.
Like I said, rather have my noggin splattered, and life insurance pay my wife, than my neck cracked. One should be given the option to make their own choices. Isn't "death with dignity" a big cause, these days? Hopefully most of my organs are in usable condition, when my time comes, whatever it is that does me in...I'd hate to see good hardware go to waste.

Seatbelt laws? I wear a seatbelt, every time. Do I think it should be mandatory? No. Again, allow personal choice. If the law considers you and "adult", don't you think it should treat you like one? If it's not endangering others, but only yourself, you should be free to make the choice for yourself. Never seen or heard of a case where someone failing to wear a seatbelt was the cause of someone ELSE dying.

The legal system tries you as "an adult" if you make stupid choices that hurt others (or even deprive them of property)...if you're responsible for those decisions, isn't it logical that YOU, not the state, be responsible for personal safety decisions?

And yes, if you choose to wear safety gear, you should probably choose to wear gear that will do the bloody job, when needed.

Also...note I do NOT advocate allowing a "responsible adult" to make safety issue decisions for a minor...the state AND parents are jointly responsible for the well being of minors (and justifiably so...as often noted, some people shouldn't be allowed to breed), and, this being the case, I fully recognize, and agree with, state mandates regarding acceptable safety measures for minors.

Just a side note...I tend to wear leathers, no matter what speed I'm planning on going. Good leather prevents nasty road rash at any speed, and, since the choice is not life and death, but comfort, and slow, painful healing...I would avoid the road rash, thank you very much. A good jacket is advisable, boots or high shoes really don't matter, if your feet are going to get messed up, it really doesn't matter what's covering them, they'll get done, anyhow, and shorts are a bit dumber than jeans...but if you're not going to wear skid pants, or at least chaps, anyhow, the choice between short or long leg covers is moot.
 
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Never seen or heard of a case where someone failing to wear a seatbelt was the cause of someone ELSE dying.

People who don't wear seatbelts can move about in the vehicle, injuring the passengers around them, and have in some cases resulted in their death. Also, you aren't as likely to die from not wearing a seatbelt as you are likely to end up with multiple fractures and head injuries that will require long rehabilitation. Since these jokers also tend not to have any insurance or money it costs the government a bunch, and therefore I support the seatbelt laws as long as they actually improve compliance.

I have seen the same thing with helmets. Sure, if you wreck at high speed without one you may be more likely to just die, but it won't always be a high speed crash, and then it turns an accident you would get up and walk away from to one that leaves you trach'ed and Peg'ed, possibly with a crani (again it seems to be the uninsured and broke people so they are stuck at the trauma center until their state funding kicks in).
 
People who don't wear seatbelts can move about in the vehicle, injuring the passengers around them, and have in some cases resulted in their death. Also, you aren't as likely to die from not wearing a seatbelt as you are likely to end up with multiple fractures and head injuries that will require long rehabilitation. Since these jokers also tend not to have any insurance or money it costs the government a bunch, and therefore I support the seatbelt laws as long as they actually improve compliance.

I have seen the same thing with helmets. Sure, if you wreck at high speed without one you may be more likely to just die, but it won't always be a high speed crash, and then it turns an accident you would get up and walk away from to one that leaves you trach'ed and Peg'ed, possibly with a crani (again it seems to be the uninsured and broke people so they are stuck at the trauma center until their state funding kicks in).

Both decent points. Never considered the increased likelihood of serious injury for no seatbelts, when otherwise it'd be a couple bruises. Never heard about an unbelted person in an auto crash being thrown about in such a way as to injure or kill others, but that may be simply a lack in my reading and experience. But even then, if there are no minors in the car, hold the ADULT in question responsible...to make their own choices, and to face charges, when appropriate.



As for the motorsickle...I specifically said "if I intend to be driving over 45"...I may have needed to modify that to "for the majority of the trip". About town, I would wear one, whether there was a law, or not. In fact, before this was a helmet law state, I did. But ONLY for "puttering around town". If it was "club ride", or such, mostly at freeway speeds, no helmet.

And I still believe law shouldn't mandate choices for legal adults. If we're responsible for choices, we're responsible for ALL choices, regarding our behavior. Don't know about ya'll, but I don't need a nanny telling me what's wrong, what's good for me, what's bad for me. I can figure that out, myself, and act accordingly to my own decisions, as I will. If I damage other people, sure, hold me responsible. But if I'm not, what gives anyone permission to make choices for me?
 
How about this: make it public policy/law for first responders that if they find you at the scene of an accident without a seat belt, you go to the bottom of the triage pile.
 
How about this: make it public policy/law for first responders that if they find you at the scene of an accident without a seat belt, you go to the bottom of the triage pile.
Sounds plenty fair to me. Like I said, my POV is make your own choices, and face the consequences for yourself.
shopsteward...dramatizations, what could theoretically happen. I would agree that if the car owner, or driver, required a belt as a condition of riding in their car, it's that person's right to boot anyone who won't/doesn't. However, I stand on the "you're an adult, make your own decisions, pay the butcher's bill when/if it comes due." Hold anyone who doesn't wear a belt (or his insurance, or next of kin) liable for injuries related to his choice, but don't interfere with his right to make the choice, under law.

I'm all for leaving someone to face the results of their choices/actions, and even to pretty much any extent law places...but I also advocate leaving those choices for them to make. You want to charge someone who wasn't wearing a belt with negligent manslaughter, if someone dies as a result, or whatever charge could apply without seatbelt mandates, after an accident, I'm fine with that. But it's an "adult" right and responsibility to make their own choices, and face the consequences, and that right should be protected at all cost. It is after all, the base precept that this country was founded on.
 
If it's not endangering others, but only yourself, you should be free to make the choice for yourself. Never seen or heard of a case where someone failing to wear a seatbelt was the cause of someone ELSE dying.

http://mydeathspace.com/article/2007/12/05/Meshawn_Brown_%2823%29_was_killed_in_an_accident_when_an_unrestrained_passenger_struck_him_from_behind

Just one example found after a quick Google search. Non-belted passenger survived, and the belted one didn't because he was hit by the non-belted one flying forward upon impact.

So in such a case, your unwillingness to wear a seatbelt is indeed endangering others. Why endanger others by refusing to wear a seatbelt? Your actions are harmful, and can be argued to be premeditated. Your desire for freedom can cost someone else their life. That's just irresponsible.


Here are some excerpts if you don't want to click on the link, all copied directly from the article:

Brown was killed when another student fell asleep while driving and ran into a utility pole, according to Sgt. Whitney Butler of the Dayton police.

Brown was sitting in the front passenger seat of the car when it struck the pole around 8:30 a.m. The rear seat passenger was not wearing a seat belt and flew over the seat striking the man in front of him, Butler said.

"The back seat passenger became a missile that struck [Brown] from behind, injuring his head and neck," Butler said. "The law doesn't require a seat belt for adults in the back seat, but this is a perfect example of why they should be belted. When this car hit the pole at maybe 40 miles an hour, anything that's not strapped down will continue moving forward at 40 miles an hour."

Butler said the man who had been in the rear seat received injuries that did not appear to be life-threatening, but Miami Valley Hospital officials did not release his condition. Butler said Brown died at the hospital.
 
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And I still believe law shouldn't mandate choices for legal adults. If we're responsible for choices, we're responsible for ALL choices, regarding our behavior. Don't know about ya'll, but I don't need a nanny telling me what's wrong, what's good for me, what's bad for me. I can figure that out, myself, and act accordingly to my own decisions, as I will. If I damage other people, sure, hold me responsible. But if I'm not, what gives anyone permission to make choices for me?

From your previous posts, it does seem like you need someone telling you what to do since you don't seem to consider all the benefits of wearing safety protection such as seatbelts and helmets:

Never considered the increased likelihood of serious injury for no seatbelts, when otherwise it'd be a couple bruises. Never heard about an unbelted person in an auto crash being thrown about in such a way as to injure or kill others, but that may be simply a lack in my reading and experience.

There are people who have studied this carefully for years and determined that it's a small inconvenience for the general public that has a HUGE positive impact in saving lives and preventing major injuries.

I don't mean to rag on you, but it really irritates me when people say they don't wear seatbelts/helmets because they'd rather die than become a vegetable, but suffer those serious injuries when they could've walked away with some bruises and minor injuries.

I've worked in EMS and I've seen it. It's just a shame when people's ignorance and disdain for government telling them what to do (even though in such a situation it makes sense) puts them in such sad and preventable situations.
 
I love that embrace life video (the first of the two that shopsteward posted).

I am all for people making informed choices for behavior that doesn't harm others. However, most of the people that decide not to wear appropriate safety gear are not making an informed choice. They are making choices based on incorrect information (I would rather die than be a vegetable is the classic argument and I can't tell you enough how incorrect that argument is), lack of information (how many of us have ridden in the bed of a pickup truck as kids in the days before people realized how dangerous this was), or lack of ability to make a different choice (people with old cars that only have lap belts, who are then at greater risk for bowel injury in an accident). And since there will never be an option to simply walk away and let the unbelted/unhelmeted people die or recover on their own the harm comes about from the increased costs to society to care for these folks. I have taken care of guys on motorcycles who wrecked at more than 120 mph and came in with only a few sore areas and the need to buy new gear since what they were wearing so fully protected them. I have had numerous guys wreck at highway speeds without helmets and survive severely incapacitated (although I have also cared for some who either had advance directives, or families who knew they wouldn't want to live that way that I was able to make comfort care only). So they are harming everyone that has to pay for their care (taxpayers typically), as well as me personally since if they were fine it wouldn't occupy so much of my time and I would be able to have more time to read or post on SDN (sort of joking, but I'm still bitter about this guy that was ejected that I was taking care of since I would have gotten home five hours ago if he wasn't so damn injured)
 
From your previous posts, it does seem like you need someone telling you what to do since you don't seem to consider all the benefits of wearing safety protection such as seatbelts and helmets:



There are people who have studied this carefully for years and determined that it's a small inconvenience for the general public that has a HUGE positive impact in saving lives and preventing major injuries.

I don't mean to rag on you, but it really irritates me when people say they don't wear seatbelts/helmets because they'd rather die than become a vegetable, but suffer those serious injuries when they could've walked away with some bruises and minor injuries.

I've worked in EMS and I've seen it. It's just a shame when people's ignorance and disdain for government telling them what to do (even though in such a situation it makes sense) puts them in such sad and preventable situations.
Urr...I don't think you read my posts beyond the "let people make their own choices"...I actually DO wear a seatbelt, but object to laws DEMANDING we do. I wear a helmet puttering around town (and did, even before it was mandatory), but again, object to it being a REQUIREMENT...and did not wear one, if I was planning to be doing freeway speeds for the majority of the time...and with full knowledge of the stats for a motorcyclist with and without helmet at 45+. I admit (and admitted earlier that this may be the case) that I was ignorant of articles or stats regarding others being hurt/killed by unbelted drivers/passengers, and, when the serious injury over minor injury in a minor crash was brought up, I conceded that point as a valid consideration. I also said a driver (or owner of the car) has every right to insist all passengers wear a belt, if they so choose, the same as I, as a homeowner, can insist guests not put cold glasses directly on wooden tables. If a driver or owner makes no such demand, that is their choice, and it is then up to the individual passengers to make their own choice. And if it does lead to the statistically (and I looked them up, finally...the belt laws were enacted because of level of injury during minor accidents and high speed accident ejections of smaller bodies...I.E. children...and I'm all for regulating safety standards for minors, as I've repeatedly said) slim chance of the beltless, flying body killing crippling, or seriously injuring someone else, yes, hold them just as responsible, under law, as they would be for similar results from negligence the rest of the time.

ZERO problem with making someone face consequences for decisions, but MAJOR problem when the choice to make the mistake resulting IN consequences is taken away.


We hand out Darwin Awards, make televisions shows, and base a good bit of our courtroom time, off stupid decisions...nothing is going to stop those decisions from being made, in one form or another, and everyone considered legally "adult" should have the right to make those decisions, when it is not actively and directly, infringing on the rights of anyone else. Not "potentially" infringing on them..."potentially" infringing on someone's rights being an excuse can be applied to having a drink ("oh, you MIGHT get in a car, and MIGHT drive, and MIGHT hit someone, so we can't allow THAT"...better yet, the laws we have...you DUI, you get caught as an active danger (this is no longer a "maybe", you actively pose a danger to yourself and everyone else anywhere near you), you face the consequence...if you don't get caught until you kill someone...vehicular manslaughter charges are applied, these days...and I think that that is too LIGHT a consequence to face. It's too highly publicized how many accidents involve impaired driving, how many of THOSE end in a death, and so DUI is as openly known a danger as firing a rifle straight into the air, in the middle of city limits (actually, the dangers of DUI are better known)...I'm NOT saying "let them get away without charges if their stupid choice results in someone else's injury", I AM saying "let them make the choice...and if bad things happen, let them face appropriate consequences"
 
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I love that embrace life video (the first of the two that shopsteward posted).

I am all for people making informed choices for behavior that doesn't harm others. However, most of the people that decide not to wear appropriate safety gear are not making an informed choice. They are making choices based on incorrect information (I would rather die than be a vegetable is the classic argument and I can't tell you enough how incorrect that argument is), lack of information (how many of us have ridden in the bed of a pickup truck as kids in the days before people realized how dangerous this was), or lack of ability to make a different choice (people with old cars that only have lap belts, who are then at greater risk for bowel injury in an accident). And since there will never be an option to simply walk away and let the unbelted/unhelmeted people die or recover on their own the harm comes about from the increased costs to society to care for these folks. I have taken care of guys on motorcycles who wrecked at more than 120 mph and came in with only a few sore areas and the need to buy new gear since what they were wearing so fully protected them. I have had numerous guys wreck at highway speeds without helmets and survive severely incapacitated (although I have also cared for some who either had advance directives, or families who knew they wouldn't want to live that way that I was able to make comfort care only). So they are harming everyone that has to pay for their care (taxpayers typically), as well as me personally since if they were fine it wouldn't occupy so much of my time and I would be able to have more time to read or post on SDN (sort of joking, but I'm still bitter about this guy that was ejected that I was taking care of since I would have gotten home five hours ago if he wasn't so damn injured)
Ahh...but you specifically point out that they are harming those who have to pay for their care...and stress taxpayers being one source...would you not, then, be effectively arguing my point, exactly? Knowing that at highway speeds IF a helmet is any use at all, it is almost always (there is always the odd case that beats the point spread), that it is only useful in preventing death, not partial or total disability, which is then an even greater pull on healthcare resources?

Again...I don't advocate riding about town, even on a skateboard or moped, without a helmet. I don't advocate skiing or snowboarding without one. I advocate that people be given the ability to make their own choice..and yes, once again, I stress, to face the consequences...whether they be legal through being responsible for injuries or deaths of others, or pain through major bone breakage in what could have been a "bumps and bruises" low speed collision.


This will probably exasperate some of you to the steam coming out of the ears point, but I used to race my little sports car at the local track on "open field drag" days...but before ever taking it out on the track for the first time, I had a full weld body support cage welded in, and a 4 point plus helmet strap restraint system added.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be careful, or that they shouldn't be held responsible for EVERY choice they make, just that they should have the option of MAKING a choice. There's an insurance commercial out, right now, that mocks this very point, making the statement "You don't want someone else making all your decisions for you, so call us, and build the policy that YOU want".

Heinlein was always a favorite author of mine, and had two things very germane to the subject to say: "Freedom of choice includes freedom to face the results", and "Stupidity isn't a crime, though it should be, but it is often a fatal illness."

Where I AM reckless, anyone who wants to consider me "stupid" is welcome to...99% of the time, I know exactly what level of stupidity is involved, a base likelihood of results and chances of something going less-than-perfectly, and am doing it, anyhow. My right, and shouldn't be yours to take away from me. Same for anyone else. Doesn't matter what you do, or how careful you are, you're going to make some bad calls, and get hurt (or possibly killed), unless we legislate things to the point that people have to wrap themselves head-to-toe in bubble wrap, and tape themselves to a chair that is, in turn, bolted to a solid floor, in an earthquake resistant building. Making those bad calls, and all the good ones, is your right, the most basic of freedoms...and with it comes the "right" to be solely responsible for what comes of it.
 
...I'm NOT saying "let them get away without charges if their stupid choice results in someone else's injury", I AM saying "let them make the choice...and if bad things happen, let them face appropriate consequences"

The problem is that on an individual level the consequences may or may not happen, but on a societal level they are statistically certain to happen. Your individual choice is not one society as a whole can responsibly make.
 
I've been lurking these boards and reading this thread and the equivalent Pharmacy thread for YEARS. I finally joined, though I'm not in any medical field, to say a few things.

1. Thank you. I'm a hyperklutz and I end up in the ER for a lot of dumb injuries like impaling myself on a metal broom handle and getting a concussion from a big metal rotisserie at my job. You guys keep my injuries from becoming Darwin Awards, and I thank you heartily!

2. I've had my share of good and bad ER docs, and the good ones are always great. The bad ones assume that my age (28) means I'm a drug seeker. I've gotten a lot of flack if my injury is the type that would typically mean a narcotic prescription, because apparently everyone is looking for a buzz.

Now, for a few stories!

The other night I headed to the ER because my jaw had swollen to the point I could no longer open my mouth or talk, due to a dental abscess. Now, Whatever response this'll get from you guys, everyone in my family loses their teeth by 30, and not due to lack of dental care(though towards the end for me that was my problem. I couldn't afford to do anything about it. Yay genetics. So my teeth have gotten worse and worse over the years, and I've lost out on jobs and people generally treat me like crap for it; but never have I gotten worse treatment than the doctor that saw me a few nights ago.

I know that typically an abscess isn't an ED problem; it was Saturday night though, and it came on very suddenly. The ER was empty that night (both the waiting room and the back) so I was seen in a matter of minutes. They stuck me on a bed, and the guy walks up, looks at me, sees my chipmunk face and the fact that I'm holding it and crying. I look like crap because who dolls themselves up at midnight to go to the ER? He shakes his head and sticks his hand in my mouth, while saying, "You really should get something done about that," yeah no ****. I've gotten 3/4 of them out and the remaining eight give me trouble. I'm working on this; it doesn't automatically make me a drug addict. Please don't assume.:(

At the same ED, I went in one evening because I'd dropped a very heavy, very slippery frozen turkey on my foot. (Told you, dumb injuries) I'm sitting in triage awaiting a doctor, and when she came in, she didn't even look at my foot. Instead she went straight for the staph infection on my arm (long story how it got there, but I was already being taken care of by my PCP in regards to it) grabbed it and squeezed it, causing the worse pain I've ever felt in my life (and i've given birth three times and dropped a 20 pound turkey on my foot), then yelling at me for yelling at her for it. I'm sorry, I would have let you mess with it if you'd been nice about it. No, though, you were feeling sadistic and just had to get the anger out after being yelled at by the spoiled rich lady with the cut on her finger in the next curtain. You then denied an x-ray after not even looking at my foot; in fact refusing to on the grounds that my already-being-treated staph was more important and if you couldn't play with it then you were taking your toys and going home.

I limped home that night in incredible pain on both my arm and my (broken in 6 places, I found out at the ER across town) foot, and the incredibly nice ER doc I met at the other hospital got more mad than I did at what you did; asking your name so SHE could yell at you. Lucky for you, I couldn't remember it.

For the record, while a staph infection IS an important and dangerous thing, I was having recurring MRSA(again, long story involving an open lawsuit), and had already had it lanced and packed, and I was living on antibiotics. She had no reason to go after it, she could see the iodine stains and the packing sticking out.

And last, but certainly not least...The rotisserie I mentioned above. I worked at a grocery store, in the deli, and we made rotisserie chicken (which is delicious). At the end of the night, we take a scrubbing stone and this gooey cleaner stuff and go to town. Unfortunately, the height of the table we clean on and the rotisserie on top of that, coupled with the fact that it rolls around while you do it, and right at my eye level...well, let's just say it didn't end well. I had a nice cut on my eyelid and brow, a concussion, and grease in my eye. The ambulance hauled me off after nearly passing out, and the EMTs thought I was rather amusing, as I was joking how being short always caused me these kinds of problems. Once I got to the hospital, they checked everything out, and I accidentally freaked out a tech when I dozed off in the machine (it was 1am, i was tired!) but overall, everyone was fantastic. From minute one, I was well taken care of, and they actually believed me when I explained that making ******ed jokes was my way of dealing with my pain (it really is, several years of dental pain kind of numb you to traditional methods like crying and moaning) and it was great.

So yeah, I didn't just show up to whine about bad ER docs; I came to praise you guys because by and large you are amazing people who do something that most people only wish they had the testicular fortitude to do. Keep up the fantastic stories, they amuse me and make me feel better about myself. :D:D
 
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Yay for me!

I did it on a moped that I modified myself with no helmet, flip flops and after "2 beers."

That's just how I roll.

Since you were riding a moped, i'm guessing the fiery skid marks were caused by friction applied by said flip flops.
biggrin.gif


and sorry this picture caused so much debate on the social dynamics of helmet use!
 
Yeah, Melanthe, got on a philosophical high-horse for a bit, there...I do appreciate a good ER doc, and I know how hard their jobs are. And it's a damned good thing there are many who have a sense of humor, a drive to do their best, and stay human...especially when they're doing their best over someone who should have known better (I'll still stand for their right to have made a decision, if it's self-inflicted...but sum peepul's jus' stoopid).

I've had good ones, I've had bad ones (as should be obvious, have visited ER quite a few times, both over failure to apply logic and foresight, and for getting the bad side, while riding the statistical horse), but the best are always the ones who take the time to treat you as a PERSON, not a symptom, injury, or illness. Even when they're treating you like a person who really should have known better to do whatever brought you in.

shopsteward, you just said it in a wonderful way, even if it doesn't MEAN what you meant it to. Society CAN'T responsibly make the choices for an individual. Determine the punishments, sure, as applied to the damage society, as the larger being, suffers as a result. But not the choices. Making a law for anything you like doesn't stop it being done...it just ensures punishment when caught. I go a bit left from there, or right, depending on your viewpoint, in saying a nation made up of a government that is a true representation of the people (socialism to hard republic, and between) can't rightfully make those decisions for someone else, and shouldn't try. Should be perfectly allowed, as the representative for that society, however, to hold the individual responsible for the outcome. And shouldn't allow "passing the buck" for the responsibility...you didn't rob someone because you were poor, nobody forced you to get drunk, then drive home, or to the next party, you didn't cheat on your taxes because the government made them too high, and, if you were insane, or in emotional distress, when you did something, first, you DID it, and there's no way to be certain the circumstances combined won't reoccur, and second, if you do get better, you still carry the guilt for having done whatever you did...if you're guilty, the price should be paid, good, or bad.
 
Well ArmyBoy, I sorta agree with you. People should be allowed to make their own choices. Personally I disagree on the helmet subject. Either you wear a helmet, or at least make it so you have to opt OUT of organ donation when you get your motorcycle license.

In other news, I forgot a story!

Several months ago I was bitten by something. The bite itself was minor, but it became horribly infected, and I ended up in the ED. The wound, by this time, was an inch wide knob on my upper arm, all sorts of pretty colors and oozing pus. It was yummy. It was also some of the worst pain I've ever been in.

When the doctor entered the room, I was treated to the best introduction ever:

"Hi there Melanthe,:) My name is Doctooooooaaawoah :eek:HOLY CRAP!":wow:

Yeah he gathered up other doctors who weren't busy and they all oohed and ahhed over it. Then when they lanced it they accidentally went past where the lidocaine shots were effective. :cry:

It was worth it though, it has to be the best time I've ever had in an emergency room! As well as one of the few times where the visit wasn't a matter of being clumsy, which is ALWAYS a plus. :thumbup:
 
Hospital Nightmare. My Guide to losing 20lbs in 4 days!
Step 1. Have a 9 Month old who requires 6 Emergency surgeries in a Row.(cystic hygroma )
Step 2. Have a 8 Year old fall off the Monkey Bars and Shatter his Elbow.
Step 3. Have 2 Children in the same hospital on the same floor recovering from surgery.
Step 4. Have 6 year old stick beads in his ear at home and puncture his ear drum.
Step5. Have Aunt drop off said child, and put other 2 children in a wagon and sit with them all in ED.
Step 6. Be arrested for munchausen by proxy. No explanation is good enough to explain a Post Op infection, blown drain and Lymph fluid leakage on a 9M old. A shattered Elbow on a 8 Year old, and Punctured ear drum on a 6 Year old.All in 36 hours.
Step7. Run into the 9M olds surgeon on your way to the police car. Have him stop the police and explain there is no way I injured the Kids.9mo HAS A CONGENITAL DEFECT!
Step 7. Have a Nurse that works at another hospital verify I was no where near when 8yo broke his arm, as I was in OR waiting room.
Step 8 Have 6 year old confess to beading his ear.
Step 9, Spend 4 days straight with no sleep, running all over a hospital 4 city blocks wide by 3 city blocks long.
Lose 20 Lbs, and you also gain 12 gray hairs before you reach 30 years old.

Having the whole incident hit the newspapers , because we were already participating in a Article on Disabled children, priceless! The Look on the Chief of Emergency Medicines face when he realized the quiet guy with me when I was arrested was no my Brother but a reporter for the Kansas City Star? Hillarious!!!!
 
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