Things to know for CV surgery rotation

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

neuroride

Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2006
Messages
143
Reaction score
5
First things, I am an anesthesia intern starting out with CV surgery at a private hospital with no surgery residency. Just me and the attending and his crew (PAs, etc.) I do not scrub in for the surgeries. Anything that I should look at before I start or am I just going to be a scut monkey?

Members don't see this ad.
 
You already know you won't be scrubbing? Not even to harvest the saphenous vein?

So what will you be doing? Manning the floor and unit?
 
Sounds like a typical CT Surgery rotation to me. Hell if the surgery interns elsewhere aren't getting to scrub in, then why would they let the anesthesia intern do it?

Since they don't have a surgery residency, sounds like the CT Surgeon has his PA scrub and probably doesn't want to "waste time" having a non-surgical intern scrubbing in and possibly slowing him down.

SO, yes...you'll probably be a scut monkey. See our threads above...keep the K above 4 (they'll probably have a protocol), the Mg above 2 (ditto), Gluc between 80 and 110, etc. What do they like to use for BP control (too high or too low)? Do they consult Cards for new onset arrythmias?

Perhaps you'll get lucky because these patients are generally lined up so you might get to put some TLCs and Alines in. What's happening with Swans? I've read the data so seems like they are falling out of favor...have ya'll noticed that in your hospitals?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Perhaps you'll get lucky because these patients are generally lined up so you might get to put some TLCs and Alines in. What's happening with Swans? I've read the data so seems like they are falling out of favor...have ya'll noticed that in your hospitals?

God I hate a-lines. Can't do them. Can easily feel the pulse anywhere, can't stick the damn artery. I'd rather do a peripheral IV than an a-line. I can drop a central line in less than a minute in most cases, but damn those a-lines!

Ahem. Anyway...our county hospital still uses Swans whenever there's an unclear fluid status situation...and some of the cardiac patients get them intra-op. But other than that, they do indeed seem to be falling out of favor.
 
God I hate a-lines. Can't do them. Can easily feel the pulse anywhere, can't stick the damn artery. I'd rather do a peripheral IV than an a-line. I can drop a central line in less than a minute in most cases, but damn those a-lines!

Ha ha...ain't it the truth. I got good at them and ABGs during medical school and then didn't do them again during 4th year and had a few lucky tries (mostly miracles in the trauma bay) but otherwise I totally sucked at those. Central line? No problem...matter of fact, I used to tell the nurses not to call me for peripherals because the patient was getting a central line because I could do it faster!

Ahem. Anyway...our county hospital still uses Swans whenever there's an unclear fluid status situation...and some of the cardiac patients get them intra-op. But other than that, they do indeed seem to be falling out of favor.

Seemed like everyone of our SICU patients had them when I was an intern and by the time I finished hardly anyone did. I only remember doing a couple that final year.
 
Ha ha...ain't it the truth. I got good at them and ABGs during medical school and then didn't do them again during 4th year and had a few lucky tries (mostly miracles in the trauma bay) but otherwise I totally sucked at those. Central line? No problem...matter of fact, I used to tell the nurses not to call me for peripherals because the patient was getting a central line because I could do it faster!

Seemed like everyone of our SICU patients had them when I was an intern and by the time I finished hardly anyone did. I only remember doing a couple that final year.

(1) ABGs, no problem. But a-lines for some reason...just impossible. I'm actually more likely to get a DP one than a radial one.

(2) Yeah, less and less frequent Swan use here now. Kinda sad since I liked using them...the whole Frank-Starling curve and all...
 
The hardest thing about doing A-lines- is knowing when to quit trying, and avoid injuring something
 
First things, I am an anesthesia intern starting out with CV surgery at a private hospital with no surgery residency. Just me and the attending and his crew (PAs, etc.) I do not scrub in for the surgeries. Anything that I should look at before I start or am I just going to be a scut monkey?

Bojar's maybe handy to have around. There is a section on cardiac anesthesia so maybe it will be useful later on as well. Here all cabs get a swan, and an aline before the case starts. Get in the OR for the start time and get these started. Alines are tough, and unrewarding but unlike most surgery or trauma patient who need them these patients are general not super edematous, and a little easier (i like to transfix the artery personally). Many cases anesthesia will do a TEE, maybe useful to watch or try. Know your parameters CVP, CI, SVR, PAD, ect, become very familiar with ionotropes and pressors. Make good with the PA's they can teach you a bunch.
 
God I hate a-lines. Can't do them. Can easily feel the pulse anywhere, can't stick the damn artery. I'd rather do a peripheral IV than an a-line. I can drop a central line in less than a minute in most cases, but damn those a-lines!

Ahem. Anyway...our county hospital still uses Swans whenever there's an unclear fluid status situation...and some of the cardiac patients get them intra-op. But other than that, they do indeed seem to be falling out of favor.

(1) ABGs, no problem. But a-lines for some reason...just impossible. I'm actually more likely to get a DP one than a radial one.

I can usually get radial lines relatively quick if the patient has a pulse. I think it has less to do with skill, and more to do with an absolute refusal to allow Anesthesia to be better than me at a procedure that we share.

Still, on the difficult ones, I've found that ultrasound is an excellent tool. You can see the radial artery pulsating, and can cannulate it under direct visualization. I especially like to use this when the patient's wrist already looks like a pincushion from previous attempts/ABGs/etc.

I swear, once you use ultrasound on a tough one, and it works, you'll be sold.

As for the DP lines, I don't have that skill in my repertoire, but one of our CC attendings that trained at your program likes to do them....


Overall, I've encountered tons of people who just can't get art lines despite being very technically skilled, and I totally understand. It's funny when you do a radiocephalic fistula for the first time and see how small that artery is...all the struggles to cannulate it start to make sense.

Of course, you can always go to the groin......
 
Ultrasound is a great tool for a-lines, and I would add that one of the best uses for it is seeing that sometimes the ulnar is actually a larger caliber vessel. I never really approached the ulnar blindly, but now with u/s, I occassionally see that it's bigger and is easier to cannulate. Some tips that I've found helpful (I'm an anesthesiology resident and do a ton of these):

1) I don't go in for that 45 degree angle crap unless they're super fat or edematous. low and slow.

2) If I'm using an Arrow kit and I'm getting good flow but can't pass the wire/shuttle, I'll rotate the whole apparatus 90 or 180 degrees.

3) if I had my drothers, I'd do them all with a long 20 g angiocath and a free wire. Our 0.018 inch wires are much more sensitive than the wire on the Arrow kit. I like the trans-arterial approach.

4) the obvious stuff about positioning is really true. Extending the wrist, but not too much, having the volar surface perfectly parallel to the floor all seem to help.

As for the swans, we still use them on all our hearts, but I keep getting told that texas heart does them with 2 peripherals, an a-line, and no echo...
 
Yeah I've had to put in a femoral a-line on a small handful of occasions. Good times.

I've used femoral arterial lines relatively often. Usually it's in the patient whose wrists are both trashed from previous sticks/lines. But, like I said, I don't have the DP in my arsenal. I'd be willing to try it on my younger trauma patients.

Ultrasound is a great tool for a-lines, and I would add that one of the best uses for it is seeing that sometimes the ulnar is actually a larger caliber vessel. I never really approached the ulnar blindly, but now with u/s, I occassionally see that it's bigger and is easier to cannulate. Some tips that I've found helpful (I'm an anesthesiology resident and do a ton of these):

I tend to stay away from ulnar arterial lines, regardless of vessel caliber. That's because I don't see a situation where you'd try the ulnar first. The hypothetical patient therefore already has some needle holes in his radial artery with iatrogenic loss of perfusion, and now we're trying to bag the ulnar too.....

There's been a couple occasions where someone's trying for an ulnar line, and I'm watching the hand become progressively more ischemic right in front of me......
 
I agree...bad idea to use the ulnar, especially if the radial has been tried before. The percentage of people who have a single supply to the hand is actually not that low despite what the Allen Test naysayers tell us.
 
I agree...bad idea to use the ulnar, especially if the radial has been tried before. The percentage of people who have a single supply to the hand is actually not that low despite what the Allen Test naysayers tell us.

right, I never used it either until I started to see on u/s that it was the bigger artery sometimes BEFORE sticking them elsewhere.
 
Top