Third Molar Surgery Hands on CE?

[waza]

Anyone knows a CE for wisdom teeth extraction that includes a hands-on portion on real patients? A lot of my colleagues have mentioned courses South of the border, but I cant seem to find anything online.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

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[IHO]

yeah they are typically 4-6 years in length and you can apply every year, about this time.
AAOMS website can provide names. good luck!

 

[waza]

yeah they are typically 4-6 years in length and you can apply every year, about this time.
AAOMS website can provide names. good luck!

Thanks for your reply. I'm asking for a Continuing Education week course and not the OMFS speciality...

 

[Sublimazing]

Man you better hope you never go to court for any of these future wizzy extractions...when they hash out you took a week course in mexico you're sunk immediately...they might send you to mexican jail

 

[Pleonasm]

John Wayland has a hands on course in Costa Rica: ivwisdom.com

 

[alxspider]

How is this type of CE ethical? Basically you go learn to practice on poor people. Mess up big time and the person is just left there without help.

 

[waza]

Man you better hope you never go to court for any of these future wizzy extractions...when they hash out you took a week course in mexico you're sunk immediately...they might send you to mexican jail

Where else would you get the training? A lot of GP's routinely extract third molars, you select your cases.

John Wayland has a hands on course in Costa Rica: ivwisdom.com

Thank you!

How is this type of CE ethical? Basically you go learn to practice on poor people. Mess up big time and the person is just left there without help.

Mess up big time? Which crappy dental school did you graduate from? We all have basic skills and if you use your head, very rarely can you mess up. Obviously you select your cases. The point of this is that you practice and there is someone who can finish the work, should you not be able to. It's exactly like dental school. With anything new that you learn, there's a learning curve.

 

[Gentledental1]

If it was something that could be taught quickly in a weekend or two, there would be thousands of CE courses available. Theres nothing to be taught that you didn't already learn in dental school. The techniques are the same. The difference with OMS is that they can deal with any complication that arises. But you certainly aren't going to learn how to deal with all the potential complications in a weekend. You're better off just saving your money, read the chapter on it in your oral surgery text book and go at it.

If you do actually follow through and pay for a course, please follow up with us because i'd be really interested to hear what the learning was like.

 

[alxspider]

Where else would you get the training? A lot of GP's routinely extract third molars, you select your cases.



Thank you!



Mess up big time? Which crappy dental school did you graduate from? We all have basic skills and if you use your head, very rarely can you mess up. Obviously you select your cases. The point of this is that you practice and there is someone who can finish the work, should you not be able to. It's exactly like dental school. With anything new that you learn, there's a learning curve.

Why don't you do the same training here in the US? This has the same ethical issues as licensure exams - delayed treatment, paying people who do not need treatment, etc. Also, being in a 3rd world country, I am sure there is shady stuff going on, otherwise people would just get trained here.

 

[Sublimazing]

Where else would you get the training? A lot of GP's routinely extract third molars, you select your cases.

In a GPR or AEGD

 

[Xigris14]

I dont post often on this forum but for certain topics I do.

Buddy, leave the wisdom teeth to the surgeons. You dont see us doing root canals or crowns in our office. How about I start placing my own abutments on the implant and then taking the impression for the crown. I dont need your sorry ass to put a crown on a implant. I can even tell the patient I can do it all with them asleep and in one office. no back and forth. But no, we all need to make a living and we all have our areas of expertise. Mine is not in restorative and you dont see us surgeons encroaching on your territory. Its you guys who are going to f.ck us in the future. Dentist getting IV sedation on a weekend course, learing how to do implants in a weekend course, now thirds in Mexico. Its a matter of time for you guys messing it up for all of us, all for the Dollar. If you wanted to do wisdom teeth, implants, sedation, then you should have gone into a residency. I clean up messes from dentist on a weekly basis, from removing root tips, closing sinus perfs, treating your infections, treating your chronic osteo cases because you refuse to treat the tooth until the infection goes away, fixing your nerve injuries from implant placement, etc.

Please stay out and let us surgeons make a living. Stick with what your good at and leave certain things to a specialist.
PS. I already have been in 3 cases from a patient suing their dentist for a oral surgical complication. I dont even get to court to testify because they all have settled out of court when the attorney knows they cant defend you in court. All it will take is one oral surgeon to testify against you and a panel of jury hearing that you are not a specialist. They really will like to hear about your Mexican experience, or your extensive, hard weekend course to sedate patients. You will be held to the standards as a OMFS and thats when you can hear the dollar signs coming out of your pocket as you settle out of court. Think about it. Are those mexican wisdom teeth worth that?

 

[alxspider]

I dont post often on this forum but for certain topics I do.

Buddy, leave the wisdom teeth to the surgeons. You dont see us doing root canals or crowns in our office. How about I start placing my own abutments on the implant and then taking the impression for the crown. I dont need your sorry ass to put a crown on a implant. I can even tell the patient I can do it all with them asleep and in one office. no back and forth. But no, we all need to make a living and we all have our areas of expertise. Mine is not in restorative and you dont see us surgeons encroaching on your territory. Its you guys who are going to f.ck us in the future. Dentist getting IV sedation on a weekend course, learing how to do implants in a weekend course, now thirds in Mexico. Its a matter of time for you guys messing it up for all of us, all for the Dollar. If you wanted to do wisdom teeth, implants, sedation, then you should have gone into a residency. I clean up messes from dentist on a weekly basis, from removing root tips, closing sinus perfs, treating your infections, treating your chronic osteo cases because you refuse to treat the tooth until the infection goes away, fixing your nerve injuries from implant placement, etc.

Please stay out and let us surgeons make a living. Stick with what your good at and leave certain things to a specialist.
PS. I already have been in 3 cases from a patient suing their dentist for a oral surgical complication. I dont even get to court to testify because they all have settled out of court when the attorney knows they cant defend you in court. All it will take is one oral surgeon to testify against you and a panel of jury hearing that you are not a specialist. They really will like to hear about your Mexican experience, or your extensive, hard weekend course to sedate patients. You will be held to the standards as a OMFS and thats when you can hear the dollar signs coming out of your pocket as you settle out of court. Think about it. Are those mexican wisdom teeth worth that?

Has your income been hurt that much by weekend CE folks?

I would imagine if things keep messing up, you can just report these clowns to the local dental board.

 

[west coast1]

You guys have got to check this out. This is a general dentist who has limited his practice to "wisdom teeth only."

http://drwisdomteeth.com/

There is a group of Oral Surgeons who started a public awareness campaign.

http://trooth.com/

All very interesting stuff.

 

[IHO]

interesting links West Coast1...at the end of the trooth.com video it implied all OMS in Utah accept all the same insurances. That is a bit peculiar, in my experience...the vast majority of surgeons in my community do not accept any insurances at all.

 

[Xigris14]

Has your income been hurt that much by weekend CE folks?

I would imagine if things keep messing up, you can just report these clowns to the local dental board.

No I have not been affected with thirds but I have with implants. I see it all the time. In the last 5 months I have taken care of patients with infections or failures from implants placed by dentist. I am making the statement that as an Oral Surgeon I already clean up lots of messes from Dentist practicing beyond their scope. I have to do it because they are my referrals. I wish I could just say no, you fix your mess. The more these courses come out attracting dentist to do more of implants, thirds, sedations the more there will be problems. Sure there are plenty of dentist that can perform these procedures. I just dont believe it can be done in a weekend course. I am truly scared about the sedation part of their training.

 

[Saddleshoes]

Anyone knows a CE for wisdom teeth extraction that includes a hands-on portion on real patients? A lot of my colleagues have mentioned courses South of the border, but I cant seem to find anything online.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

While not exactly a classic CE course, I got my best hands on training in wisdom tooth removal by going on dental mission trips to "3rd World" countries like Haiti and Honduras.

 

[The Anhedonia]

No I have not been affected with thirds but I have with implants. I see it all the time. In the last 5 months I have taken care of patients with infections or failures from implants placed by dentist. I am making the statement that as an Oral Surgeon I already clean up lots of messes from Dentist practicing beyond their scope. .

xirgis when you 'clean up messes' what are you billing your patients for? there's no CPT code for that

serious question though

 

[tingting]

I take out lots of wisdom teeth in the military as a general dentist, and I was trained to do so by an OMS. I really enjoy it and plan to offer the service in private practice in the future. I'm sorry OMS feel so threatened and resorted to insults here.

If you are serious about learning I would get a mentor that can guide you through some cases and teach you the basics, and then be very particular about case selection as you proceed on your own. Traditionally these are found with GPRs or military. I'm not sure the CE is worth it, because in one week you are not going to get past the beginner phase. It's all about volume and exposure to cases and that takes time. Without a mentor it will be hard to proceed into the more challenging cases. Dentaltown has some good reads and also some CE videos to learn the basics. Go slow and make sure you can handle post-op complications.

 

[Timeoutofmind]

You guys have got to check this out. This is a general dentist who has limited his practice to "wisdom teeth only."

http://drwisdomteeth.com/

There is a group of Oral Surgeons who started a public awareness campaign.

http://trooth.com/

All very interesting stuff.

CRNA's Can not practice anesthesia without an MD anesthesiologist. I am not sure how this guy is getting away with it.

 

[The Anhedonia]

You guys have got to check this out. This is a general dentist who has limited his practice to "wisdom teeth only."

http://drwisdomteeth.com/

There is a group of Oral Surgeons who started a public awareness campaign.

http://trooth.com/

All very interesting stuff.

this is the same argument of plastic surgeons who are against non board-certified plastics (i.e. OMFS) doing facial cosmetics. kind of ironic imo.

 

[Katzen7]

CRNA's Can not practice anesthesia without an MD anesthesiologist. I am not sure how this guy is getting away with it.

Actually, it's any MD - does not have to be an anesthesiologist. In most states dentist's and podiatrists are also allowed to "supervise" the CRNA by law. You would need to check the state's Nursing Practice Act for exact regulations.

I may be off on the semantics, but I believe what you are referring to is the ability to bill Medicaid/Medicare without anesthesiologist supervision. That being said, if you are not billing Medicaid/Medicare this is not an issue and I believe Utah is an opt out state meaning this doesn't apply to them anyways.

 

[Sublimazing]

CRNA's Can not practice anesthesia without an MD anesthesiologist. I am not sure how this guy is getting away with it.

17 states are opt out states meaning that CRNAs can practice unsupervised...other states allow CRNAs to practice w/ supervision by the surgeon (dental or md)...some require stricter supervision...and then of course it varies at different institutions

 

[preOMFS]

this is the same argument of plastic surgeons who are against non board-certified plastics (i.e. OMFS) doing facial cosmetics. kind of ironic imo.

Except OS residents should have logged cosmetic cases from residency that legitimately qualify them for the procedures.

How many logged cases does this guy have from residency? - wait, that's right, he didn't go to residency.

 

[IHO]

I take out lots of wisdom teeth in the military as a general dentist, and I was trained to do so by an OMS. I really enjoy it and plan to offer the service in private practice in the future.

Great! my position, and I believe the position of other posters, as long as you have adequate training to treat AND deal with complications than you can practice away. A military service period (I assume 2-4 years) under the supervision of an oral surgeon would easily qualify as a GPR. that is not in the same ballpark as what the OP is looking for...a weekend CE.


I'm sorry OMS feel so threatened and resorted to insults here.

nobody insulted anybody, and I'm certainly not threatened. I am a little bit disgusted every time a general dentist calls me to fish a root tip out of the sinus or floor of the mouth or when an MD calls me to evaluate a neck abcess in the SICU s/p exo 3rds or when the dentists asks me to evaluate a numb lip or when a patient is in my office after a 1-2hr attempted extraction. It happens ALL THE TIME. the level of training obtained in a 4-6 year residency compared to a week long CE, or watching a 30 minute video on the internet...well there is no comparison. Ask yourself...would you rather your daughter/son/loved one have impacted 3rds removed by a board eligible OMS or a dentist who took a weekend course/watched a video/stayed at a holiday inn express. If you are honest, we all know what the answer would be. Again, no insults here, just cold hard truth.

... and then be very particular about case selection as you proceed on your own.

sounds fine, but I have seen the simplest most routine exos turn into deep space neck abscesses requiring extra-oral IandD and trachs and OAFs. Can you handle these complications? do you have admitting privileges to the local hospital for 3-5 days of IV antibiotics? do you have OR privileges for extaoral IandDs and trachs? or privileges for Caldwell lucs to get up in the sinus?

or even if no complications, was the patient best served by a 40-90minute extraction under local/nitrous versus a 5-10 minute extraction under general anesthesia.

Again, I am not speaking from insecurity or a desire to insult anyone. I have a 1 month waiting list for appointments, I am doing quite well despite general dentists in my community practicing beyond their scope. I speak for what is ultimately in the best interest of the patient.

Cheers

 

[MrRongeurs]

The reason he has such a market and is successful (in the market) is because all Mormon missionaries are required to have their thirds extracted prior to serving on their missions.

 

[Gentledental1]

I take out lots of wisdom teeth in the military as a general dentist, and I was trained to do so by an OMS. I really enjoy it and plan to offer the service in private practice in the future.

Great! my position, and I believe the position of other posters, as long as you have adequate training to treat AND deal with complications than you can practice away. A military service period (I assume 2-4 years) under the supervision of an oral surgeon would easily qualify as a GPR. that is not in the same ballpark as what the OP is looking for...a weekend CE.


I'm sorry OMS feel so threatened and resorted to insults here.

nobody insulted anybody, and I'm certainly not threatened. I am a little bit disgusted every time a general dentist calls me to fish a root tip out of the sinus or floor of the mouth or when an MD calls me to evaluate a neck abcess in the SICU s/p exo 3rds or when the dentists asks me to evaluate a numb lip or when a patient is in my office after a 1-2hr attempted extraction. It happens ALL THE TIME. the level of training obtained in a 4-6 year residency compared to a week long CE, or watching a 30 minute video on the internet...well there is no comparison. Ask yourself...would you rather your daughter/son/loved one have impacted 3rds removed by a board eligible OMS or a dentist who took a weekend course/watched a video/stayed at a holiday inn express. If you are honest, we all know what the answer would be. Again, no insults here, just cold hard truth.

... and then be very particular about case selection as you proceed on your own.

sounds fine, but I have seen the simplest most routine exos turn into deep space neck abscesses requiring extra-oral IandD and trachs and OAFs. Can you handle these complications? do you have admitting privileges to the local hospital for 3-5 days of IV antibiotics? do you have OR privileges for extaoral IandDs and trachs? or privileges for Caldwell lucs to get up in the sinus?

or even if no complications, was the patient best served by a 40-90minute extraction under local/nitrous versus a 5-10 minute extraction under general anesthesia.

Again, I am not speaking from insecurity or a desire to insult anyone. I have a 1 month waiting list for appointments, I am doing quite well despite general dentists in my community practicing beyond their scope. I speak for what is ultimately in the best interest of the patient.

Cheers

Well said.

 

[UCSD6]

@IHO

give me a break, theres a reason why there is a code for simple TE!

@the butt hurt attending

time to change ur attitude, u live and die by GP referrals. Time to realize that simple cases can be done by a caveman. Don't worry there are plenty of difficult cases for u to do.

 

[Localnative]

As an OS, it's not really 3rd molar exos by Nonspecialist's I'm worried about. What keeps me up at night are clinicians doing IV sedations in their office who have taken these CE courses. A number of publicized screw ups, deaths etc by GPs performing IVS AND GA in their office (in my homestate south of the Mason Dixon line its RAMPANT) and the AMA and medical anesthesiologists will have further cause to go after EVERYONE in dentistry including OS AND Dental anesthesiologists. There is already a number of people in the medical community who would love to dissolve the surgeon-operator role of OS.

People doing sh-t in their office they aren't qualified to do is bad for ALL OF US. Stick to what you know best. If you are NOT 100% competent in dealing with all complications don't do it.

As an aside... getting a call at 5p on a Friday afternoon to clean up another's mess will often generate additional referrals (from both clinicians and patients alike) and solidifies good will among practitioners in the dental community. Yes, its a pain in the ass but does have its rewards.

 

[Supersonic]

I have been finding that general dentists eventually realize that it is not financially wise to take out thirds without the proper equipment, speed and skill of an OS. If it takes longer than 30-40 minutes to take out a couple of thirds, causing the patient significant anxiety while performing the procedure on a nonsedated patient, the dentist would probably have been better served by filling that appointment with a RCT or crown. If the dentist is struggling so much they're doing their own hygiene or using their nondominant hand to assist themselves, let the poor bastard sweat through an impacted third for a couple of hundred bucks they can put towards their sl500, a purchase they shouldn't have made to begin with (get the pattern here)

 

[alxspider]

As an OS, it's not really 3rd molar exos by Nonspecialist's I'm worried about. What keeps me up at night are clinicians doing IV sedations in their office who have taken these CE courses. A number of publicized screw ups, deaths etc by GPs performing IVS AND GA in their office (in my homestate south of the Mason Dixon line its RAMPANT) and the AMA and medical anesthesiologists will have further cause to go after EVERYONE in dentistry including OS AND Dental anesthesiologists. There is already a number of people in the medical community who would love to dissolve the surgeon-operator role of OS.

People doing sh-t in their office they aren't qualified to do is bad for ALL OF US. Stick to what you know best. If you are NOT 100% competent in dealing with all complications don't do it.

As an aside... getting a call at 5p on a Friday afternoon to clean up another's mess will often generate additional referrals (from both clinicians and patients alike) and solidifies good will among practitioners in the dental community. Yes, its a pain in the ass but does have its rewards.

As bad as this sounds, shouldn't OMFS throw these idiots under the bus and help the patient that has harm done to them sue the daylights out of these people?

 

[Truedat]

I have been finding that general dentists eventually realize that it is not financially wise to take out thirds without the proper equipment, speed and skill of an OS. If it takes longer than 30-40 minutes to take out a couple of thirds, causing the patient significant anxiety while performing the procedure on a nonsedated patient, the dentist would probably have been better served by filling that appointment with a RCT or crown. If the dentist is struggling so much they're doing their own hygiene or using their nondominant hand to assist themselves, let the poor bastard sweat through an impacted third for a couple of hundred bucks they can put towards their sl500, a purchase they shouldn't have made to begin with (get the pattern here)

Why would anyone want to do impacted wizzies on a non-sedated patient if they can avoid it?! I'm currently a general dentist military and private practice (OMS resident this coming year, YAY!) and I do a ton of IV sedation and impacted Wizzies and if the pt can't afford sedation I'll give it to them for free just so I can feel more at ease. I hate having pts AAOx3 during surgery, heck I'll sedate a hangnail if I need to. IV sedation is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

For those GDs that can semi quickly shuck Wizzies it is much more lucrative than doing a crown or RCT. I pocket $$$ in 60 minutes of pt chair time for impacted Wizziesx4 vs 180 mins for a crown prep and delivery that generates $$$. It's no wonder why Lots of GDs would like to do Wizzies it's fun and its a quick money maker. I agree with the above Replies in regards to dealing with complications and adverse outcomes, luckily I was very well taught by a Marx trained Fellow

 

[Gentledental1]

Everyone wants to be a surgeon. No one wants to put in the blood, sweat and tears.

 

[browncrack]

I gotta say it. If you don't know how to handle the complications - it is just a matter of time before it will happen to you regardless of how careful you are. I agree with the careful case selection but you also need to know or else be a trained omfs. Make sure that person knows you will be in touch in your moment of need. Follow their advice when they give it to you and remember to say thank you.

 

[Sajitude]

It is always important to seek as much knowledge as you can when you are responsible for care of other people. I strongly commend you for trying to better your skills and knowledge base.
In relation to your question, I try to complete as much CE as possible and you will have a hard time finding a patient based one within the US. There are great one year residencies that focus on OS.
Also keep in mind most specialists are great individuals that are always willing to help especially if you refer to them. Feel free to call your referral OS and ask questions or maybe assist on some cases. I have had great experiences calling with questions to individuals I refer to and we have a very healthy and dynamic relationships with them.
Most of them are NOT like Xigris14. Very few are so judgmental and pompous, and the ones that are end up working at hospitals because they struggle building a referral dentist population in private practice.

We refer out very few OS cases, and with the right training you will discover that a full boney 3rd molar CAN be less difficult than a #6 root tip. Case selection is key.

Good luck

 

[Xigris14]

Hey now, I am only speaking my mind and opinion on this matter. Sorry its not accepted with most GP. Thats why we have forums and to think most people dont think like myself is just plan foolish. When we Oral Surgeon have meetings with our society guess what some of our discussion are about. The GP. Thats right. We see the same problem occurring. its not just me, so sorry to disappoint.

I see broken first molars, retained root tips, infections not managed properly, implants in the sinus, broken instruments within the oral cavity, etc, etc. Sure OMFS can cause this but the point is that this is seen in agreement with my OMFS by GP getting in over their head with OS cases. Weekend courses don't make you proficient. This is happening more and more but seen in states like Fl and others where new GP come out taking courses on sedation, implants, ortho, etc. In a way im happy you are wanting to learn more and broaden your scope but in a way Im sick of cleaning up your crap. If you are willing to take a tooth out or place a implant then you better be ready to handle every complication. Im not the janitor ready to accept your patients with problems to clean up the mess. There are some GP that sure can place implants, ext teeth, sedate, etc very proficiently but the mistake is when others get involved to try and make more money and think that they too can become proficient with these courses. These practice solution groups come to your office and say, "doctor why refer out when you can treat this patient yourself?" Trust me i have many dentist friends and they tell me this all the time. Or my friends who see the ability to make a nice income taking out wisdom teeth and placing implants. My best friend is a dentist that places implants. He is great at this procedure. I don't care he is doing this. My point is not for those that are very proficient but those that are not and don't see the damage they can do by not understanding their limitations but only see the $$$. There is a reason why residencies exist and not just weekend courses to train us to all be oral surgeons or endodontist, orthodontist etc. I will leave you with this. If you or your loved one needs open heart surgery, you will be researching what surgeon does the procedure you are enquiring, how many have they done, are they board certified to do this type of surgery, any law-suites or malpractice claims against them and their scope of practice. Do they just specialize in this type of surgery. I dont want my treating physician/surgeon to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.

I will take a #6 root tip any day over a full bony 3rd molar. Your an idiot Sajitude.

 

[briansle]

Hey now, I am only speaking my mind and opinion on this matter. Sorry its not accepted with most GP. Thats why we have forums and to think most people dont think like myself is just plan foolish. When we Oral Surgeon have meetings with our society guess what some of our discussion are about. The GP. Thats right. We see the same problem occurring. its not just me, so sorry to disappoint.

I see broken first molars, retained root tips, infections not managed properly, implants in the sinus, broken instruments within the oral cavity, etc, etc. Sure OMFS can cause this but the point is that this is seen in agreement with my OMFS by GP getting in over their head with OS cases. Weekend courses don't make you proficient. This is happening more and more but seen in states like Fl and others where new GP come out taking courses on sedation, implants, ortho, etc. In a way im happy you are wanting to learn more and broaden your scope but in a way Im sick of cleaning up your crap. If you are willing to take a tooth out or place a implant then you better be ready to handle every complication. Im not the janitor ready to accept your patients with problems to clean up the mess. There are some GP that sure can place implants, ext teeth, sedate, etc very proficiently but the mistake is when others get involved to try and make more money and think that they too can become proficient with these courses. These practice solution groups come to your office and say, "doctor why refer out when you can treat this patient yourself?" Trust me i have many dentist friends and they tell me this all the time. Or my friends who see the ability to make a nice income taking out wisdom teeth and placing implants. My best friend is a dentist that places implants. He is great at this procedure. I don't care he is doing this. My point is not for those that are very proficient but those that are not and don't see the damage they can do by not understanding their limitations but only see the $$$. There is a reason why residencies exist and not just weekend courses to train us to all be oral surgeons or endodontist, orthodontist etc. I will leave you with this. If you or your loved one needs open heart surgery, you will be researching what surgeon does the procedure you are enquiring, how many have they done, are they board certified to do this type of surgery, any law-suites or malpractice claims against them and their scope of practice. Do they just specialize in this type of surgery. I dont want my treating physician/surgeon to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.

I will take a #6 root tip any day over a full bony 3rd molar. Your an idiot Sajitude.

paragraph - one of several distinct subdivisions of a text intended to separate ideas; the beginning is usually marked by a new indented line.

 

[MrRongeurs]

Hey now, I am only speaking my mind and opinion on this matter. Sorry its not accepted with most GP. Thats why we have forums and to think most people dont think like myself is just plan foolish. When we Oral Surgeon have meetings with our society guess what some of our discussion are about. The GP. Thats right. We see the same problem occurring. its not just me, so sorry to disappoint.

I see broken first molars, retained root tips, infections not managed properly, implants in the sinus, broken instruments within the oral cavity, etc, etc. Sure OMFS can cause this but the point is that this is seen in agreement with my OMFS by GP getting in over their head with OS cases. Weekend courses don't make you proficient. This is happening more and more but seen in states like Fl and others where new GP come out taking courses on sedation, implants, ortho, etc. In a way im happy you are wanting to learn more and broaden your scope but in a way Im sick of cleaning up your crap. If you are willing to take a tooth out or place a implant then you better be ready to handle every complication. Im not the janitor ready to accept your patients with problems to clean up the mess. There are some GP that sure can place implants, ext teeth, sedate, etc very proficiently but the mistake is when others get involved to try and make more money and think that they too can become proficient with these courses. These practice solution groups come to your office and say, "doctor why refer out when you can treat this patient yourself?" Trust me i have many dentist friends and they tell me this all the time. Or my friends who see the ability to make a nice income taking out wisdom teeth and placing implants. My best friend is a dentist that places implants. He is great at this procedure. I don't care he is doing this. My point is not for those that are very proficient but those that are not and don't see the damage they can do by not understanding their limitations but only see the $$$. There is a reason why residencies exist and not just weekend courses to train us to all be oral surgeons or endodontist, orthodontist etc. I will leave you with this. If you or your loved one needs open heart surgery, you will be researching what surgeon does the procedure you are enquiring, how many have they done, are they board certified to do this type of surgery, any law-suites or malpractice claims against them and their scope of practice. Do they just specialize in this type of surgery. I dont want my treating physician/surgeon to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.

I will take a #6 root tip any day over a full bony 3rd molar. Your an idiot Sajitude.

*You're

 

[tjung789]

Hey now, I am only speaking my mind and opinion on this matter. Sorry its not accepted with most GP. Thats why we have forums and to think most people dont think like myself is just plan foolish. When we Oral Surgeon have meetings with our society guess what some of our discussion are about. The GP. Thats right. We see the same problem occurring. its not just me, so sorry to disappoint.

I see broken first molars, retained root tips, infections not managed properly, implants in the sinus, broken instruments within the oral cavity, etc, etc. Sure OMFS can cause this but the point is that this is seen in agreement with my OMFS by GP getting in over their head with OS cases. Weekend courses don't make you proficient. This is happening more and more but seen in states like Fl and others where new GP come out taking courses on sedation, implants, ortho, etc. In a way im happy you are wanting to learn more and broaden your scope but in a way Im sick of cleaning up your crap. If you are willing to take a tooth out or place a implant then you better be ready to handle every complication. Im not the janitor ready to accept your patients with problems to clean up the mess. There are some GP that sure can place implants, ext teeth, sedate, etc very proficiently but the mistake is when others get involved to try and make more money and think that they too can become proficient with these courses. These practice solution groups come to your office and say, "doctor why refer out when you can treat this patient yourself?" Trust me i have many dentist friends and they tell me this all the time. Or my friends who see the ability to make a nice income taking out wisdom teeth and placing implants. My best friend is a dentist that places implants. He is great at this procedure. I don't care he is doing this. My point is not for those that are very proficient but those that are not and don't see the damage they can do by not understanding their limitations but only see the $$$. There is a reason why residencies exist and not just weekend courses to train us to all be oral surgeons or endodontist, orthodontist etc. I will leave you with this. If you or your loved one needs open heart surgery, you will be researching what surgeon does the procedure you are enquiring, how many have they done, are they board certified to do this type of surgery, any law-suites or malpractice claims against them and their scope of practice. Do they just specialize in this type of surgery. I dont want my treating physician/surgeon to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.

I will take a #6 root tip any day over a full bony 3rd molar. Your an idiot Sajitude.

You are right. Maybe you can't get enough experience and knowledge about pulling 3rds in just a weekend course. However, you can learn in about 4-5 weeks, depending on how much you do in those weeks. Stop acting like all oral surgery residencies are just focused on wisdom teeth and implants. You guys do a lot of other stuff, which most GPs would never touch. Also, if a dumb CRNA can learn sedation, then why can't I?

Knowledge is nobody's property. In some countries, they don't even have OMFS as a specialty! Orthodontics is also another really bitter group of specialists.

And stop flaunting your 'surgeon' title please. Everyone knows OMFS call themselves "Surgeons" as a political weapon merely to remove the tag of 'dentist '. You guys are nothing more than just a GP really good at pulling thirds and doing sedation.

 

[CMistry]

You are right. Maybe you can't get enough experience and knowledge about pulling 3rds in just a weekend course. However, you can learn in about 4-5 weeks, depending on how much you do in those weeks. Stop acting like all oral surgery residencies are just focused on wisdom teeth and implants. You guys do a lot of other stuff, which most GPs would never touch. Also, if a dumb CRNA can learn sedation, then why can't I?

Knowledge is nobody's property. In some countries, they don't even have OMFS as a specialty! Orthodontics is also another really bitter group of specialists.

And stop flaunting your 'surgeon' title please. Everyone knows OMFS call themselves "Surgeons" as a political weapon merely to remove the tag of 'dentist '. You guys are nothing more than just a GP really good at pulling thirds and doing sedation.

Wow. Once (if) you become a dentist you should come back and re-read this. "dumb CRNA"... wow.

 

[UltimateHombre]

And stop flaunting your 'surgeon' title please. Everyone knows OMFS call themselves "Surgeons" as a political weapon merely to remove the tag of 'dentist '. You guys are nothing more than just a GP really good at pulling thirds and doing sedation.

The fact that you don't think that OMS deserves the title of "surgeon" makes me question your knowledge of the dental field. The extensive training they receive in facial trauma and reconstructive/orthognathic surgery more than qualifies them to use that title.

 

[periopocket]

DDS = doctor of dental surgery. The first individuals who entered the dental field were actually all surgeons back in the day check the history.

 

[tjung789]

DDS = doctor of dental surgery. The first individuals who entered the dental field were actually all surgeons back in the day check the history.

Haha. That last comment of mine, about OMFS not really being surgeons, was meant to be a joke and a rehash of the plastic surgeons complaining. I know a lot of plastic surgeons are ticked about OMFS doing cosmetic stuff, but none of the plastic surgeons want to take trauma call! Cause it's all about the Benjamins!!

But joking aside, I don't really understand why a specialist (like an OMFS) would be so ticked at a GP doing a couple of 3rds. One mess up for the GP and its to the courts for him/her, where their work will be compared to a level of a specialist. If you are sick of cleaning up the crap of GPs, then don't take their cases. If your practice is booming, 1 or 2 referral sources disappearing isn't going to be the end of the world. Or better yet, call up a couple of law firms and say that if they get a case where a GP messed up a 3rd molar that you would be happy to testify as an expert witness against the GP. You get to make some money and you get to 'teach a GP' a lesson.

You knew that one of the freedoms you give up when you become a specialist is the freedom to turn down every case that you don't like. You knew that when you became a specialist you have to kiss up to the GPs and make them happy and become somewhat of a slave to the GPs (like when you 'clean up their crap'). If you weren't very aware of this when you decided to specialize, then you shouldn't have specialized You give up this freedom and gain the freedom to make more per procedure. It works both ways.

And its not like you are prevented from going to the chains to supplement your private practice income.

 

[OMFS21]

You are right. Maybe you can't get enough experience and knowledge about pulling 3rds in just a weekend course. However, you can learn in about 4-5 weeks, depending on how much you do in those weeks. Stop acting like all oral surgery residencies are just focused on wisdom teeth and implants. You guys do a lot of other stuff, which most GPs would never touch. Also, if a dumb CRNA can learn sedation, then why can't I?

Knowledge is nobody's property. In some countries, they don't even have OMFS as a specialty! Orthodontics is also another really bitter group of specialists.

And stop flaunting your 'surgeon' title please. Everyone knows OMFS call themselves "Surgeons" as a political weapon merely to remove the tag of 'dentist '. You guys are nothing more than just a GP really good at pulling thirds and doing sedation.

Haters gonna hate

 

[charlestweed]

You knew that one of the freedoms you give up when you become a specialist is the freedom to turn down every case that you don't like. You knew that when you became a specialist you have to kiss up to the GPs and make them happy and become somewhat of a slave to the GPs (like when you 'clean up their crap'). If you weren't very aware of this when you decided to specialize, then you shouldn't have specialized You give up this freedom and gain the freedom to make more per procedure. It works both ways.

I agree with this. GP referrals are very important for the well-being of a specialty practice. If you don't like going from door to door to meet the GPs, then you shouldn't specialize. And if you still want to specialize, you should consider getting a teaching job at a dental school instead of setting up a private practice. Without the continued supports from my referring GP friends, I wouldn't come here so frequently to post how cool it is to be an orthodontist or how cool it is to be a periodontist (my wife).

I'd be glad to take over a case (or cases) that the GP failed to treat properly. This would give me the opportunity to show the GP my clinical skills and to gain his/her trust. This would possibly help save the GP from a potential malpractice lawsuit. This would also help fulfill the patient's expectation. And I also get paid for doing this. A win-win combination for both the GP and the specialist.

The GP is the captain of the ship. He/she gets to decide which cases he/she can treat and which cases to refer to the specialist. You, the specialists, have no say in it.

 

[Sajitude]

Hey now, I am only speaking my mind and opinion on this matter. Sorry its not accepted with most GP. Thats why we have forums and to think most people dont think like myself is just plan foolish. When we Oral Surgeon have meetings with our society guess what some of our discussion are about. The GP. Thats right. We see the same problem occurring. its not just me, so sorry to disappoint.

I see broken first molars, retained root tips, infections not managed properly, implants in the sinus, broken instruments within the oral cavity, etc, etc. Sure OMFS can cause this but the point is that this is seen in agreement with my OMFS by GP getting in over their head with OS cases. Weekend courses don't make you proficient. This is happening more and more but seen in states like Fl and others where new GP come out taking courses on sedation, implants, ortho, etc. In a way im happy you are wanting to learn more and broaden your scope but in a way Im sick of cleaning up your crap. If you are willing to take a tooth out or place a implant then you better be ready to handle every complication. Im not the janitor ready to accept your patients with problems to clean up the mess. There are some GP that sure can place implants, ext teeth, sedate, etc very proficiently but the mistake is when others get involved to try and make more money and think that they too can become proficient with these courses. These practice solution groups come to your office and say, "doctor why refer out when you can treat this patient yourself?" Trust me i have many dentist friends and they tell me this all the time. Or my friends who see the ability to make a nice income taking out wisdom teeth and placing implants. My best friend is a dentist that places implants. He is great at this procedure. I don't care he is doing this. My point is not for those that are very proficient but those that are not and don't see the damage they can do by not understanding their limitations but only see the $$$. There is a reason why residencies exist and not just weekend courses to train us to all be oral surgeons or endodontist, orthodontist etc. I will leave you with this. If you or your loved one needs open heart surgery, you will be researching what surgeon does the procedure you are enquiring, how many have they done, are they board certified to do this type of surgery, any law-suites or malpractice claims against them and their scope of practice. Do they just specialize in this type of surgery. I dont want my treating physician/surgeon to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.

I will take a #6 root tip any day over a full bony 3rd molar. Your an idiot Sajitude.

Hahaha of course you would prefer to take a #6 root tip out because you don't know squat about prostodontic challenges with vertical bone defects. You will just blow through bone and call it a day. The rest of us (that actually care about the final outcome) do our best to maintain as much bone as we can. Or maybe you just don't know how to take out full bony thirds. I am pleased you prefer not to receive GP referrals. Please indulge us with your name and practice, we need to have lists of incompetent OS such as yourself.

Also please proof read your posts, your knowledge base is showing.

 

[GreatOMFSHope]

Hahaha of course you would prefer to take a #6 root tip out because you don't know squat about prostodontic challenges with vertical bone defects. You will just blow through bone and call it a day. The rest of us (that actually care about the final outcome) do our best to maintain as much bone as we can. Or maybe you just don't know how to take out full bony thirds. I am pleased you prefer not to receive GP referrals. Please indulge us with your name and practice, we need to have lists of incompetent OS such as yourself.

Also please proof read your posts, your knowledge base is showing.

I can't help it.

Proofread is one word. Prosthodontic, not prostodontic.

I'm an oral surgeon.....you're the dick.

 

[DREDAY]

Here's one: gp office extracts full bony impacted 3rds on young healthy patient. 2 days later pt gets Septic with parapharyngeal absces. Spends 30 days in icu. And guess who had to deal with complication..... We did. I ordered all the preop X-rays, no signs of preop infection.... Now how bout that for patient safety..

 

[yappy]

I think it is an interesting relationship that Gp's have with specialists. With all the comments on this thread, and another thread on a similar topic, it seems that the specialist really is dependent on GP referrals. Someone even mentioned that GP's are "gate keepers" to other areas of dentistry that specialists practice in. I think this is true for the most part.

 

[Rlow04]

To respond to the OP's question, First I would check out Dr. Jay Resnick's website onlineoralsurgery .com. He's an oral surgeon that has taken the approach of: if we can better educate GPs in their technique and ability to manage complications, patients will be better off. He also does a good job of helping GPs walk through the decision to refer or treat in office.

I haven't watched all his stuff, but the head of oral surgery at our school is good friends with him and showed us a few of the videos. Dr Resnick is a great teacher and his videos are very well put together.

The second resource I would turn the OP to is a thread on dental town called "I would like to extract teeth?" (Part 1 and 2) It's a thread 20,000 posts long started by a dentist named Dr Tommy Murph. He's a GP who extracts a LOT of teeth in his private practice, mainly because of the low dental IQ of his patient base. In his thread, he posts videos, pictures, and stories of the extractions he does every day and encourages other dentists to post theirs as well. Some of the best learning experiences on that thread are hearing the post-op complications and how they handled.

Dr Murph also does a 10 day course in Guatemala where they do a ton of extractions with him guiding you and teaching you. It won't turn you into an oral surgeon that schuck impacted thirds in your sleep, but it will give you way more confidence and speed with exodontia in general. Dr Murph is a true mentor and tells people they can call him any time if they need advice on cases.

My classmate and I wanted to take his course this summer, but we can't get a Guatemalan dental license because we're still students.