This "holistic" thing is hurting DO schools

[dbeast]

Hey peeps, I don't usually venture over here but I wanted a second opinion on a conversation I had today. I was approached by a pre-med student who wanted to know her medical school options, considering she did poorly in her pre-reqs. I told her that DO is a great way to go, and with grade replacement, she could be a top applicant.

She gets this sour face and says, "yeah, but they're into this holistic thing and I just don't really understand it. I think I'm gonna be an ultrasound tech".

After suppressing the urge to yell at her for being ignorant, I began to think about how "holistic" as an adjective can be misleading. I think 99% of people on this DO forum want to practice the same types of medicine as their MD counterparts, and "treating the whole patient" has become just some weak buzzwords that really apply to both MD and DO philosophies.

Even as a MD student, I'm allllll about MD = DO. Why the eff can't we do away with this imaginary philosophical difference between the two degrees? We're all going to be doctors, let's start treating it like that. I feel like making these distinctions only hurts the DO degree. Am I crazy for thinking this?

Sorry for the rant, that convo from earlier just really aggravated me. That girl can go enjoy being an ultrasound tech and taking orders from MD's and DO's alike.

Also, sorry if this is like the 1,000th thread on this topic, I don't cruise over to these parts too often.

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[BestDoctorEver]

Hey peeps, I don't usually venture over here but I wanted a second opinion on a conversation I had today. I was approached by a pre-med student who wanted to know her medical school options, considering she did poorly in her pre-reqs. I told her that DO is a great way to go, and with grade replacement, she could be a top applicant.

She gets this sour face and says, "yeah, but they're into this holistic thing and I just don't really understand it. I think I'm gonna be an ultrasound tech".

After suppressing the urge to yell at her for being ignorant, I began to think about how "holistic" as an adjective can be misleading. I think 99% of people on this DO forum want to practice the same types of medicine as their MD counterparts, and "treating the whole patient" has become just some weak buzzwords that really apply to both MD and DO philosophies.

Even as a MD student, I'm allllll about MD = DO. Why the eff can't we do away with this imaginary philosophical difference between the two degrees? We're all going to be doctors, let's start treating it like that. I feel like making these distinctions only hurts the DO degree. Am I crazy for thinking this?

Sorry for the rant, that convo from earlier just really aggravated me. That girl can go enjoy being an ultrasound tech and taking orders from MD's and DO's alike.

Also, sorry if this is like the 1,000th thread on this topic, I don't cruise over to these parts too often.

Just tell her to shadow both a DO/MD, then she will see that there are no distinctions whatsoever.

 

[darklabel]

Did you explain how DO = MD and the only difference is you learn OMT/OMM?

But most of what I experience in the real world (and I am sadly surrounded by premeds) is that they want that MD title and see DOs as "inferior". 2 letters mean that much to them.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

A lot of the non-medical people I've talked to confuse the whole "holistic" approach as some sort of alternative medicine.

DO leadership needs to stop talking out of both sides of their mouths. "We're the same as MDs..... but different!"

 

[medickdb]

Even as a MD student, I'm allllll about MD = DO. Why the eff can't we do away with this imaginary philosophical difference between the two degrees? We're all going to be doctors, let's start treating it like that.

The things is... we all understand this, but it has been going on for so long that it is slow to change. I mean look at our generation and how we view the way the country should operate compared to people who are 60+ years old.

Modern medicine is relatively new. Osteopathic medicine itself wasn't recognized with full medical licensure in the United States until the 1970s, and that was after over a century-long struggle for recognition. There are still physicians of the old breed who still feel the need to distinguish the profession in this manner for various reasons. I kind of understand where they are coming from as they had to 'fight' to be viewed as equals for so long.

We are the new breed. I expect things to change with us and with the physicians who graduated within the last two decades.

 

[coolingglasses]

Sounds like a personal problem on her part. If she can't be bothered to do a little research, someone else will happily take her seat.

bye felicia

 

[rainbow girl]

I think 'holistic' has become a thing in today healthcare. Not only DO but the whole healthcare professions are claiming that they put patients at the center of treatments and actively try to improve patients' lifestyle (at least at all the doctors' offices I have been to, they have some of these lifestyle posters everywhere). If one is really into medicine, she should research/explore the field and not let some buzzwords prevent her whatsoever. In the end, it's about practicing medicine, not about the tiny initials. If this helps, people would address her (for example) Dr. Smith, not Smith MD or Smith DO

 

[AlienHandSyndrome]

.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I do think it would be nice to integrate the curriculum under a single Medical Doctor degree, as this would eliminate confusion a great deal. However, for that to happen one would need to sell MD leadership on the value of OMM, and DO leadership on the fact that it would be cut back some in the curriculum (you could learn more on rotations or if you chose to specialize in it). Getting that done may be harder than getting a bill through congress.

Any feed-back is welcomed, these are just my personal insights on the matter.

I don't think MD leadership will ever be on board with OMM. Personally, I think we should just eliminate it (or make it completely elective) and call everyone even. Won't ever happen though.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I don't see the stigma changing any time soon. When tonight's troll revived old threads from 1999, I noticed those people had the SAME conversations with the same opinions as we do today.

If we actually had a merger of residencies (thanks AlabamaPop), then maybe I can say "yeah things have changed." Until I see a merger, our osteopathic position and stigma will remain the same macroscopically. It's not like the 1999 DOs weren't getting the respect back then that we get today.

I think when enough of us Pro-OMM elective dudes can actually make it to the AOA board, we can make a difference. Until then, the AOA board members will make sure to get their adequate paychecks for inadequately looking out for our professional well-being.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Just started the local SOMA chapter at my COM...working my way up the chain...change is coming folks

 

[Donkk]

I must admit for me it is weird to see all the threads about this topic since I have been shadowing D.O.'s for several years now. I am not sure if I am from a D.O. friendly state or nobody says anything to these people because they are attending's. I also never hear any of them say oh we are DO we treat the whole body, love the rural backwoods and all I want to do is family medicine either. I have also yet to see OMM performed by any of them. I have yet to see one difference between the DO and MD in hospital and private practice thus far, I dunno.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

I must admit for me it is weird to see all the threads about this topic since I have been shadowing D.O.'s for several years now. I am not sure if I am from a D.O. friendly state or nobody says anything to these people because they are attending's. I also never hear any of them say oh we are DO we treat the whole body, love the rural backwoods and all I want to do is family medicine either. I have also yet to see OMM performed by any of them. I have yet to see one difference between the DO and MD in hospital and private practice thus far, I dunno.

Thats because in modern medicine...there really isn't any...but many people do not know that. Hence the threads.

 

[CSqueed]

I haven't met a DO physician who is more "holistic" than MD physicians.

Edit: OUTSIDE the staff of DO schools...

 

[Mr Kenobi]

^that

 

[Escape_Goat]

DO leadership needs to stop talking out of both sides of their mouths. "We're the same as MDs..... but different!"

I think the phrase is "separate but equal", which, of course, has always worked out sooooo well in the past...

But the whole "DO philosophy" is really just the "physician philosophy". I'm of the opinion that most DOs don't buy into the hype. I told an interviewer that I'd practice medicine the same whether I was an MD or DO, but a few OMM methods seemed like they could be useful. He agreed. The problem is that the AOA still promotes this antiquated notion that the evidence-based medicine and practice DOs learn is different than what MDs do. I think that will change in time as new, younger DOs replace the old guard of the AOA. But until then, DO students and physicians just need to do a better job more accurately portraying what DOs are to the public. Hell, read the Wikipedia entry for osteopathic medicine, it's filled with buzzwords.

 

[wjs010]

Only pre meds think this way. Zero physicians do

 

[Silent Cool]

Just tell DOs to stop the back-cracking nonsense and all will be well.

But seriously,
OMM should be taught as a series of electives--for those who are actually interested--rather than define a different but equal degree. A separate degree shouldn't exist.

Unfortunately, with the oncoming residency crunch, DOs will get hit fairly hard in the match. Sad but true.

Go MD if you can.

good luck.

 

[Silent Cool]

Did you explain how DO = MD and the only difference is you learn OMT/OMM?

But most of what I experience in the real world (and I am sadly surrounded by premeds) is that they want that MD title and see DOs as "inferior". 2 letters mean that much to them.

The sad truth, however, is that MDs have a huge advantage in the match--for any given board score.

 

[DocWinter]

The "holistic" nature is something of a buzzword - and that desire to be "natural" has been running in waves around our country for decades. It's going to ebb and flow for a long, long time.

It's not hurting DO's, because every seat in a new entering class is filled with a waiting line for miles. It's somewhat overplayed, yet usually, in real life, not different in the vast majority of practicing physicians.

When I answer the "why DO" question, I say, "because I want to get closer and work hands-on with my patients, and I have a great interest in the muscoloskelatal system." Take the majic out of it and it is a cool , common sense approach.

 

[costales]

The holistic aspect is historic and dates back to ancient times when Still was lecturing on the environmental and biopsychosocial etiologies/risk factors of disease, including slavery and poverty. Over time, many of the founding principles have been co-opted or downright plagiarized by various other movements.

In the real world of hospitals and clinics, people just want to go to work and go home. Patients are too sick to care - they're just glad to see a doctor.

 

[Goro]

To quote Forrest Gump: "you can't fix stupid" .

What we try to teach our students is to not merely look at a patient as a "case" or a pair of lungs. The standardized patients who rotate through here and also work at the nearby MD schools say our students have a more gentle touch, and they appreciate that.

Maybe that's what it means. I have a friend on faculty at another school who refuses to let interviewees say the word "holistic" or "whole body" in interviews. I haven't stolen that one. Yet.


She gets this sour face and says, "yeah, but they're into this holistic thing and I just don't really understand it. I think I'm gonna be an ultrasound tech".

 

[pattr]

I try not to use the words "whole-person/patient," "holistic" etc when describing DOs or the osteopathic philosophy. The distinguishing factor is OMM/OMT and the philosophy it entails (structure function, body is a unit, self-healing) and that in itself is enough of a distinction.

As other ppl have mentioned in this thread the very process of going through OMM class for 200-300 hours, whether or not you choose to use it in your practice... It changes your mindset about medicine and it puts you in a situation where you are now the vulnerable one and your body is the one literally in the hands of someone whom you might not be familiar with, wherein you may very immediately experience either pain or comfort.

Similar to the experience of someone who has a chronic illness treated by doctors for long periods of time and pursues medicine/healthcare as a profession, if nothing else OMM makes you appreciate being on the other side. You realize the sense of trust/communication/rapport you need as a patient in order to feel truly cared for.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

The problem is alternative medicine quacks talking over the terms holistic and integrative medicine. Before these simply meant patient centered approach and complimentary things to help your life like eating healthy for cholesterol or doing yoga for exercise. Now both terms are almost always conflated with bull**** like homeopathy.