This is why I don't like Glock Handguns as Carry Weapons

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Detroit woman killed when hug triggers officer's gun, police say

Published July 09, 2012
Associated Press

DETROIT – A woman celebrating the weekend before her 25th birthday was fatally shot Sunday when she hugged an off-duty police officer while dancing at a party, causing the officer's service weapon to fire, according to police and her mother.
Adaisha Miller would have turned 25 on Monday, according to her mother, Yolanda McNair.
The shooting happened at an outdoor social gathering about 12:30 a.m., said police Sgt. Eren Stephens. It happened on the city's west side.
According to Stephens, the woman "embraced the officer from behind, causing the holstered weapon to accidently discharge." The bullet punctured Miller's lung and hit her heart, and she died at a hospital.
Stephens said the Detroit officer will remain on administrative duties while authorities investigate the shooting and report their findings to the Wayne County prosecutor. The officer's name was not released.
"For this to happen to her, whether they want to call it freak accident or mistake in judgment, it should have never happened to my child, and there's nothing I can do to get her back," McNair told WDIV-TV.
McNair said her daughter was out to mark her upcoming birthday.
"All she wanted to do was enjoy the weekend for her birthday," the mother said. "She had every right to enjoy turning 25 and look beyond that."





Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/08/detroit-woman-killed-when-hug-triggers-officer-gun-police-say/#ixzz208JGVyVH

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Detroit police service weapons are S&W M&P40.


Thank You. I meant to say "Glock like triggers" are very light with no safety. Smith and Wesson M and P 40 has a light, Glock like 6.5 pound trigger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ccriZs4v9E


Glocks and other striker fired weapons with a similar trigger have been know to easily discharge a round. Be extra careful with them.
 
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Pre-set (striker or hammer)
Pre-set strikers and hammers apply only to semi-automatic handguns. Upon firing a cartridge or loading the chamber, the hammer or striker will rest in a partially cocked position. The trigger serves the function of completing the cocking cycle and then releasing the striker or hammer. While technically two actions, it differs from a double-action trigger in that the trigger is not capable of fully cocking the striker or hammer. It differs from single action in that if the striker or hammer were to release, it would generally not be capable of igniting the primer.
Examples of pre-set strikers are the Glock, Smith and Wesson M&P, Kahr Arms, and Ruger SR series pistols.
 
"Some of the same factors that give it tremendous high-speed hit potential while you're fighting for your life also make it more prone to accidental discharges," Massad Ayoob, a New Hampshire police captain who also runs a firearms instruction institute, said. "You don't want your 16-year-old kid out of driver's ed driving a Corvette Stingray. The Glock is like a Corvette Stingray."

"The only thing about the Glock is, once you start pulling on that trigger, there's no coming back," Robertson said. "You don't get a second thought with it."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/deadlyforce/police4page4.htm
 
"The only thing about the Glock is, once you start pulling on that trigger, there's no coming back," Robertson said. "You don't get a second thought with it."

What an inane thing to say. :smack:


I'm curious what kind of holster (if any) this guy was using. Properly carried guns don't "just go off" ...

Shot through the lung & heart when hugging someone? There's more to this story.
 
"The only thing about the Glock is, once you start pulling on that trigger, there's no coming back," Robertson said. "You don't get a second thought with it."

This is a horrible statement and not even vaguely true. I suspect Robertson has very little trigger time with a glock.

External safeties have no place on a combat weapon, and can only impede you in the heat of the moment when the bad guy already has the drop on you, and who's to say that there wasn't enough force exerted on the trigger of whatever weapon this was that it would have fired had it been a 10# double action trigger?
 
What an inane thing to say. :smack:


I'm curious what kind of holster (if any) this guy was using. Properly carried guns don't "just go off" ...

Shot through the lung & heart when hugging someone? There's more to this story.

There's speculation that the cop was carrying with a shoulder holster.
 
External safeties have no place on a combat weapon,

I tend to agree with you but the military has a long & glorious history of issuing sidearms with external safeties, eg the current Beretta M9 and old Colt M1911. Never really made sense to me until I saw just how uncomfortable/sloppy so many sidearm-carriers in the .mil are with them, got to protect people from themselves, even in the military.


There's speculation that the cop was carrying with a shoulder holster.

That's kind of what I figured (so she hugged him from behind?), but even so, no holstered gun should ever go off. Maybe he was Mexican-carrying with duct tape Die-Hard-style or something.
 
I tend to agree with you but the military has a long & glorious history of issuing sidearms with external safeties, eg the current Beretta M9 and old Colt M1911. Never really made sense to me until I saw just how uncomfortable/sloppy so many sidearm-carriers in the .mil are with them, got to protect people from themselves, even in the military.




That's kind of what I figured (so she hugged him from behind?), but even so, no holstered gun should ever go off. Maybe he was Mexican-carrying with duct tape Die-Hard-style or something.

PGG,

Would you ever carry a gun COCKED and UNLOCKED (single action) ready to go? This means just a light touch of the trigger and the gun goes bang. Of course you wouldnt carry that way.

Yet, many LEO and Civilians carry these "feather weight" Glock like triggers with 4 pounds of pull. All it takes is just a touch of these triggers and BANG.

For most of us (some LEOs included) the best carry weapon doesn't have a feather weight trigger without a safety. I prefer a heavy double action trigger myself when I carry because of the additional safety factor. Other ex-military and Ex-Seals can carry whtever they choose to.

Most likely this death would NOT have happened with a standard issue double action revolver or an H and K semi-auto with a heavier trigger.
 
I tend to agree with you but the military has a long & glorious history of issuing sidearms with external safeties, eg the current Beretta M9 and old Colt M1911. Never really made sense to me until I saw just how uncomfortable/sloppy so many sidearm-carriers in the .mil are with them, got to protect people from themselves, even in the military.

Quite true, and I always wondered about that. I had a chance to talk to one of my military buddies about it who told me that the military puts almost no value on the sidearm. Our troops are quite handy with their long arms but have little use for handguns, and view them as little more than decoration. He said they get almost no training on them and that he only recalls shooting a single magazine through a pistol before he was done with basic.

IIRC, specops, who have more time for weapons training, are issued handguns without external safeties (the mk23 and the sig 226)
 
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Quite true, and I always wondered about that. I had a chance to talk to one of my military buddies about it who told me that the military puts almost no value on the sidearm. Our troops are quite handy with their long arms but have little use for handguns, and view them as little more than decoration. He said they get almost no training on them and that he only recalls shooting a single magazine through a pistol before he was done with basic.

IIRC, specops, who have more time for weapons training, are issued handguns without external safeties (the mk23 and the sig 226)

My best guess is she didn't have any Spec-Ops training whatsoever:



"All she wanted to do was enjoy the weekend for her birthday," the mother said. "She had every right to enjoy turning 25 and look beyond that."
 
My best guess is she didn't have any Spec-Ops training whatsoever:



"All she wanted to do was enjoy the weekend for her birthday," the mother said. "She had every right to enjoy turning 25 and look beyond that."

Taken a bit out of context, but I'll assume you were being funny :)
 
Taken a bit out of context, but I'll assume you were being funny :)

Yes, Funny, Whitty, Sarcastic, etc. The fact is these triggers are real light and lack any safety (the trigger safety is BS). Only the Springfield XDM type of gun has the light glock trigger with a real safety on the grip. If this cop was carrying an XMD that girl would still be alive today.
 
IMGP1555.jpg
 
Yes, Funny, Whitty, Sarcastic, etc. The fact is these triggers are real light and lack any safety (the trigger safety is BS). Only the Springfield XDM type of gun has the light glock trigger with a real safety on the grip. If this cop was carrying an XMD that girl would still be alive today.

You can't possibly draw that conclusion from the limited information available.
 
The bottom line is that this accident was an issue of retention and not of any lack of a physical firearm safety mechanism. Had this officers trigger guard not been somehow defeated (or not present to begin with), then this girl would still be alive.
 
You can't possibly draw that conclusion from the limited information available.

Sure. Whatever. IT's pretty obvious SHE accidentally hit the LIGHT trigger and the gun went off. But, maybe it was aliens, a ghost or an ex-boyfriend. But, I'll stick with the horse when I hear hoof beats.
 
The bottom line is that this accident was an issue of retention and not of any lack of a physical firearm safety mechanism. Had this officers trigger guard not been somehow defeated (or not present to begin with), then this girl would still be alive.

Sure. I understand you are defending Smith and Wesson here. But, the gun is simply not the SAFEST carry weapon for police/LEOs. There are reports of injuries and discharges.
 
Would you ever carry a gun COCKED and UNLOCKED (single action) ready to go? This means just a light touch of the trigger and the gun goes bang. Of course you wouldnt carry that way.

Lots of people carry 1911s that way, there's still a grip safety and a trigger. I don't like 1911s so I wouldn't. I prefer Sigs and DA/SA. And occasionally a Ruger LCP, but nobody would ever acuse that thing of having a light trigger.


Most likely this death would NOT have happened with a standard issue double action revolver or an H and K semi-auto with a heavier trigger.

That's a bold statement. :)

Unless this was some kind of modified or customized gun, I'm just not buying the story that a FACTORY gun in a holster "just went off" ...

Triggers don't pull themselves, good holsters properly used prevent accidental trigger pulls.

Something else happened here.
 

Sabrina Whittle, who was Wise's partner, said in a recent interview that she and her partner were not taught to keep their fingers off the triggers of their Glocks unless they intended to fire.

Dukes said in a recent interview, "He was playing with the weapon. This was the second time I had told [Mayberry] during that tour of duty not to point the weapon at me."

"A 2-year-old can pick up the Glock and kill someone. It doesn't take much to fire the weapon."

And the problem is the gun?

God forbid these people buy a cup of coffee at McDonalds.
 
What an inane thing to say. :smack:


I'm curious what kind of holster (if any) this guy was using. Properly carried guns don't "just go off" ...

Shot through the lung & heart when hugging someone? There's more to this story.

Definitely more to this story.

For some reason, the concept of "guns don't kill people - people kill people" seems appropriate here.
 
I reserve any judgement until the details are out, and I want a lot more details like how does a handgun secured at the waist in a holster hit her in the lungs and chest when she is hugging him?



Woman killed after off-duty Detroit officer's gun goes off



As he was off duty, we don't know exactly what he is carrying, but has anyone head of/ seen a department that issues holsters that do not cover the trigger as part of the retention setup?

- pod
 
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I'm a card carrying member of the Glock Haters Club but I'm dubious about blaming this on a Glock. Need more details.

Absolutely agree. Something doesn't sound right. I'd gladly take a Glock and throw it at the wall 100 times, the thing is MADE not to discharge unless you squeeze the trigger. Something doesn't sound right.

Wedding.

Alcohol.

Need more info.

D712
 
I tend to agree with you but the military has a long & glorious history of issuing sidearms with external safeties, eg the current Beretta M9 and old Colt M1911. Never really made sense to me until I saw just how uncomfortable/sloppy so many sidearm-carriers in the .mil are with them, got to protect people from themselves, even in the military.




That's kind of what I figured (so she hugged him from behind?), but even so, no holstered gun should ever go off. Maybe he was Mexican-carrying with duct tape Die-Hard-style or something.

Maybe not holstered properly and in a freak accident she placed her finger in the EXACT wrong spot? This is not a problem with Glocks. I'm about to get one. I'd get a Sig or a S&W for that matter though.

D712
 
Maybe not holstered properly and in a freak accident she placed her finger in the EXACT wrong spot? This is not a problem with Glocks. I'm about to get one. I'd get a Sig or a S&W for that matter though.

D712

Glocks are great Guns but there are many stories of accidental discharges of these weapons. I would not carry one on me or in my car unless properly holstered. The odds of you ever firing this weapon at a person is lower than an accidental discharge (in my opinion). Again, I like Glocks but for a civilian carry gun there are safer options.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-carry-guns/131714-glock-accidental-discharge.html
 
Glock handguns are very popular. They are reliable, easily maintained, and easy to shoot. That last attribute is also a dangerous shortcoming. With no manual safety and a light trigger pull the user needs to apply an additional gun safety rule: Carry the gun in a manner in which the trigger cannot be pulled unintentionally.

Apparently, that was the problem in the case in Fredricksburg, VA, described at WTVR.com:

The father, a 45-year-old Spotsylvania man, was in his minivan with his children waiting for his wife to return a DVD to the Redbox outside the Giant Food Store in Harrison Crossing when he was shot, said Captain Elizabeth Scott with the Spotsylvania County Sheriff's Office.

The wife said she heard a pop and when she ran back to the minivan, her husband told her he thought he'd shot himself, said Capt. Scott.

When a Spotsylania County Sheriff's Deputy arrived on scene minutes after the shooting, the man's wife and others in the Giant parking lot were trying to revive the man.

The deputy reported the man suffered significant blood loss and was already unconscious when he arrived. The man was later pronounced dead at Mary Washington Hospital, said Capt. Scott.

She said the initial investigation indicated when the man tried to unbuckle his seat belt, he hit the trigger of his .40 caliber glock and shot himself in the hip.

It is unclear whether the man carried his gun in a holster or his pocket. The family friend says it likely was loose in his pocket.

Such a tragedy. It cost him his life. But he gave a valuable lesson to others who might be tempted to carry a handgun without a manual safety loose in a pocket.

Update. It was probably in his waistband, not his pocket. See updated:

Investigators said Wednesday that the gun the victim was carrying was not housed in a holster and that they think the gun was simply tucked into the waistband of the man's pants.

The victim's wife said she believes that when her husband went to adjust the gun, which had likely shifted and become uncomfortable, the gun accidentally discharged.

Kudos to the reporter who was able to provide the make of the handgun.

Posted by George Johns on November 16, 2011 at 04:01 PM in Guns | Permalink
 
Yes, Funny, Whitty, Sarcastic, etc. The fact is these triggers are real light and lack any safety (the trigger safety is BS). Only the Springfield XDM type of gun has the light glock trigger with a real safety on the grip. If this cop was carrying an XMD that girl would still be alive today.

I seriously doubt it. She was suppsoedly shot in the chest by a gun that was worn IWB in a holster that covered the trigger. I think this scenario is as likely as her actually being shot by a sniper located in the Texas Book Depository.

Somebody was messing with the gun and mechanical safeties don't fix that. That is the job of the safety between the ears.
 
It is unclear whether the man carried his gun in a holster or his pocket. The family friend says it likely was loose in his pocket.

Next you'll be telling us the reason Plaxico Burress shot himself in the leg was because it was a GLOCK he had tucked in his sweatpants that night.

;)
 
Next you'll be telling us the reason Plaxico Burress shot himself in the leg was because it was a GLOCK he had tucked in his sweatpants that night.

;)

If Plaxico had an XDM or HK that night he wouldn't have shot himself, avoided prison and made millions more in the NFL instead of Zero inside a cell. Being stupid definitely has consequences.

Better yet is to obey all local and state laws especially in NYC
 
If Plaxico had an XDM or HK that night he wouldn't have shot himself, avoided prison and made millions more in the NFL instead of Zero inside a cell.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. :)


Being stupid definitely has consequences.

Better yet is to obey all local and state laws especially in NYC

True enough on both of those though.
 
The factory trigger on my HK is lighter than the one on my Glock and there is no external safety. It does have a slightly longer trigger pull.

- pod
 
Pre-set (striker or hammer)
Pre-set strikers and hammers apply only to semi-automatic handguns. Upon firing a cartridge or loading the chamber, the hammer or striker will rest in a partially cocked position. The trigger serves the function of completing the cocking cycle and then releasing the striker or hammer. Examples of pre-set strikers are the Glock, Smith and Wesson M&P, Kahr Arms, and Ruger SR series pistols.

So you know alot about hand guns. What hand gun would you recommend? The purpose will mainly be personal protection at home. Will likely not carry it much.
 
The factory trigger on my HK is lighter than the one on my Glock and there is no external safety. It does have a slightly longer trigger pull.

- pod

I have Many HK handguns. Many. I even have a special trigger on one LE edition (no safety). That extra light trigger guarantees I won't be using it as a carry weapon.

Most HKs are DA/SA and the DA pull is 14 pounds or so.
 
So you know alot about hand guns. What hand gun would you recommend? The purpose will mainly be personal protection at home. Will likely not carry it much.

If you don't shoot much (1-2 times a year) then consider a revolver. I own several including Smith and Wesson and Ruger. For the buck the Ruger is a great gun. If you want to have the best then Smith and Wesson has several lines of revolvers.

Revolvers can be abused and left to sit in the drawer for decades. I'm not advising that course of action but I know that gun will go bang every time.

There is no substitute for a gun course, gun safety and time at the range. That said, novices woud benefit from the ease and simplicity of a revolver. Want a semi auto which holds 18 rounds? Then, consider one with a DA/SA trigger plus a safety. The list includes a lot of manufacturers and I own one from most:

1. CZ
2. HK
3. Sig
4, Beretta
5. Walther
6. Ruger

I recommend a .38/357 in a revolver (.357 frames will shoot a .38) and a 9mm in semi auto (cheaper to shoot, easy to find and mag holds lots of rounds).
 
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I cannot believe you are recommending a .357 instead of a .9mm around the house for safety.

I don't get that at all.

D712
 
Old-School Officers Swear By the Vanishing .38
By MICHAEL WILSON
Published: December 16, 2004
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Roughly 19 out of 20 officers in the New York City Police Department carry the semiautomatic pistols that have been standard issue for 11 years, a boxy handful of steel and polymer as clean and smooth as many of their young faces.

This story is not about them. It's about the 1 in 20, and the old, heavy piece parked on that officer's hip like a jalopy at the top of the driveway. Wow, people say -- look at that thing. Does it work?

An older model of sidearm was grandfathered in with officers who are, in some cases, grandfathers. It is thick, but elegant in its way, its grip curling lazily out of the holster, the grooves in the hammer like those around aging eyes.

It goes by many names -- thirty-eight, six-shooter, pea-shooter, wheel gun -- but the .38-caliber revolver is a dying breed on the belts of New York, soon to go the way of the rosewood nightstick.

Today, a few more than 2,000 service weapons are revolvers, down from more than 30,000 in 1993. Never again, the police said, will new revolvers be issued, and so the number shrinks with every retirement. Many officers own two guns, and some officers continue to carry revolvers off-duty, but again, that choice is no longer available to new recruits.

More than anything else, it is carrying a gun -- the daily familiarity of it, the expectation that it must be used on a second's notice -- that most sets apart the police from the policed.

And yet, choosing the gun was unceremonial, rushed and uninformed: pick up a revolver off a table, see how it feels, try the next one, then a third, then pick your favorite. Then, during training, the recruits learned to respect this piece of equipment that can take a human life. Now it feels strange to leave the house without it. They have come a long way together, these 2,000 officers and their revolvers. Uniforms have come and gone, and the belly under the belt has grown, but the gun hanging there is not to be messed with.

''Eventually, they'll all be gone,'' said Inspector Steven J. Silks, commanding officer of the firearms and tactics section of the Police Academy. ''It's like people who like to have a stick shift. You take it away from them, they feel like they can never drive in the snow again.''

In the early years of the Police Department, officers carried any weapon they chose, until Theodore Roosevelt, as president of the Board of Police Commissioners, ordered the 4-inch, .32-caliber Colt revolver to be the standard sidearm. Training with the guns began on Dec. 30, 1895.

Ninety-eight years later, in 1993, after much debate among the department and the unions and legislators in Albany, the department switched from revolvers to semiautomatics, primarily to meet the advanced weaponry carried by criminals and dispel the perception that the officers were outgunned.

The newer guns were easier to reload and held 15 rounds in the magazine and one on the chamber, almost three times as many as the revolver. Officers with revolvers were allowed to keep them if they chose, while rookies received the new guns.

So, the model of an officer's gun dates him or her like rings on a tree. The outer bands are the semiautomatic, 9-millimeter pistols. The next ring is much thinner, the brief period of the so-called spurless revolver, a gun with an internal hammer that for safety cannot be cocked. Finally, in the center, there is the classic revolver, such as the Smith & Wesson Model 10 or the Ruger Police Service Six, more commonly seen on ''T.J. Hooker'' reruns or film noir than on the streets of New York.

The grips still echo the earliest revolvers, designed in the 19th century to feel like the handle of a plow in a man's hand. Lt. Eugene Whyte, 45, with 22 years on the job, remembers arriving at a meeting for the Republican National Convention this summer, and men in suits quickly calling him aside, agog at his snub-nosed sidearm. ''I had Secret Service guys asking me if they could see it,'' he said. ''It was as if I was carrying a flintlock pistol.''

It is not only fellow law officers who notice. Officer Andrew Cruz, 41, was posted in Times Square recently when a tourist did a double take at his revolver. ''He said, 'Old school,''' the officer recalled. They get that a lot: ''You're a real cop,'' or, ''You must have seen a lot,'' or, ''You must be getting ready to retire.''

''They say, 'What are you, an old-timer?''' said Officer Mark Steinhauer, 41, who joined the department in 1991. ''My answer to them is, 'It worked for John Wayne.'''

The guys with revolvers, they say, are the same guys who married their high school girlfriends. Dependable. No surprises.

''It's put me through 20 years, and I'm still alive,'' said Officer Gregg Melita, 41, who not only carries a Ruger Police Service revolver, but the old ''dump pouches,'' two leather carriers that hold loose cartridges. ''This is when guns were guns, and cops were cops,'' he said. ''The new guys don't even know what dump pouches are. They go, 'Hey, what's that hold?''' He chuckled. '''Bullets, kid.'''

The design of a 9-millimeter magazine, with a spring pushing cartridges in single file into the chamber, makes it susceptible to malfunction, to jamming. With a revolver, there is always another round ready to fire, no matter whether the one before it did.

''These aren't Ferraris,'' Inspector Silks said. ''These are Chevrolets.''

Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly ordered the switch to 9-millimeter pistols 11 years ago, and learned to shoot one himself. But it is his revolver, a Colt Detective Special, that he carries today, under the slight break in his trouser leg at the left ankle.

''It's easier to carry, for me, anyway, the revolver. I've carried it for a long time,'' he said. ''I actually won it in the Police Academy, many years ago,'' graduating first in his class. It is inscribed: ''Bloomingdale Trophy won by Probationary Patrolman Raymond W. Kelly. May 15, 1967.''

As for the decline of the revolver, he said, ''I don't think it means very much, tactically. I don't see that much difference in shooting a semiautomatic handgun or a revolver. The difference, people will tell you, is dependability. You take a revolver that's been in a drawer for 100 years, take it out, pull the trigger, and it's going to go off. Automatics have the potential, probably more so than revolvers, for jamming. At least, that's what people think.''

Officers with revolvers say that yes, they feel more comfortable with a gun that is virtually malfunction-proof, and that six shots at a time, along with their extra six-shot speed-loaders, ought to be enough. ''After 18 rounds, if I can't hit him, I'm in big trouble,'' said Officer Sean Murtha, 40, who carries two speed-loaders. (And he would be a statistical aberration. To date in 2004, the average number of rounds fired by a single officer in a police shooting is 2.8, down from 4.6 in 2000 and 5.0 in 1995.)

But there is something else about the gun. It makes a statement.

''It has to do with identity,'' said Officer Cruz, from the 88th Precinct in Fort Greene in Brooklyn. ''You see someone with a .38, you know they've got some time on them.''

Officer Melita, with his dump pouch, joined in 1986 and patrolled in Harlem for 18 years. He believes his gun shows younger officers that he was at work when times were different in New York. ''That's how you can tell who's been on the job awhile,'' he said. ''Back when it was, you know, wild.''

Officers must appear twice a year at the firing range in Rodman's Neck in the Bronx. Detective Tomasa Rodriguez, with the Midtown South precinct, remembered the announcement for everyone with revolvers to step aside to a separate range. ''It was embarrassing. All the young kids were looking at us like, 'Oh my God, these people, they're emotionally disturbed, they still have a .38,''' she said. ''Before you know it, you're out of there. There's, like, two or three people. I told my partner, 'I was embarrassed at the range.' But I don't care. I like my weapon, I know how to use it.''

The department had 2,367 revolvers in service in 2003. At last count this fall, that number had dropped to 2,019. Wait, make that 2,018 -- Marty Paolino, 42, retired from the 88th Precinct a few weeks ago. (''I never wanted to go for the special training,'' he said on his last day of work. ''They don't pay you enough.'') Next year, with the expected retirements of officers who joined in 1985, a relatively large class of recruits, hundreds of revolvers will disappear from service.

It is too soon for eulogies, but not much. For an epitaph on the revolver's tombstone, consider two statements from two officers, six little words for why they kept their six-shooters.

''I hate change.''

''It looks cool.''
Photos: Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly carries a revolver under his trouser leg at the left ankle. ''I've carried it for a long time,'' he said. (Photo by Nancy Siesel/The New York Times)(pg. B12); Officers with their revolvers. ''Someone with a .38, you know they've got some time on them,'' says one. (Photographs by Nancy Siesel/The New York Times)(pg. A1)

Chart/Diagram: ''A Dying Breed''
The .38-caliber revolver is carried by only a relative handful of veteran New York City police officers, and as they retire, so will their revolvers. Here is a look at a six-shooter and the 9-millimeter semiautomatic that is now the standard issue.

Smith & Wesson
Model 10 .38-caliber revolver
CALIBER -- .38
CAPACITY -- 6
LENGTH -- 8.9'
BARREL LENGTH -- 4'
WEIGHT -- 36 oz.

(without cartridges or magazine)

Glock 19
9-millimeter semiautomatic
CALIBER -- 9 mm
CAPACITY -- 16*
LENGTH -- 6.9'
BARREL LENGTH -- 4'
WEIGHT -- 21 oz.

(without cartridges or magazine)

*Includes 15 rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber.
 
I have Many HK handguns. Many. I even have a special trigger on one LE edition (no safety). That extra light trigger guarantees I won't be using it as a carry weapon.

H&K has what, 9 action variants? The point is, it isn't the gun, my H&K also has the same (factory) LEM trigger as the one you referred to. No safety whatsoever and a light pull. If the Glock is unsafe, the H&K is even more unsafe in that particular variant. The essentially identical DAK from Sig is equally unsafe.

Of course all of these "AD" NDs have one thing in common... individual operator error. The question is would applying a systems error type solution (like you seem to be calling for) actually result in any decrease in the number of NDs or would the individual operator just find another way to screw things up?

NYC felt that it would make a difference and increased the trigger pull weight on it's Glocks. Detroit looked at the same thing and decided a systems approach would not make a difference, although after some bad press they decided to switch from Glocks entirely.

- pod
 
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H&K has what, 9 action variants? The point is, it isn't the gun, my H&K also has the same (factory) LEM trigger as the one you referred to. No safety whatsoever and a light pull. If the Glock is unsafe, the H&K is even more unsafe in that particular variant. The essentially identical DAK from Sig is equally unsafe.

Of course all of these "AD" NDs have one thing in common... individual operator error. The question is would applying a systems error type solution (like you seem to be calling for) actually result in any decrease in the number of NDs or would the individual operator just find another way to screw things up?

- pod

I'm not calling for anything. I'm just stating that these striker fired Guns with 4 pound triggers are easily set off. As a civilian I prefer to carry safer Guns as the odds favor my never having to actually use the gun.
 
I cannot believe you are recommending a .357 instead of a .9mm around the house for safety.

I don't get that at all.

D712

Why? The 125 gr 357 is a great defense round. If I need to use it, I'm going full house. .38 special for practice and .357 for show. Plus, the 357 is very versatile and can be loaded in a large variety of weights and velocities.

Frankly my wife has used autoloaders in steel and polymer and always goes back to our SW 686+
 
Source Life

Editor's note: This is a guest post from Jon at Armslist.com.* Armslist.com is an online firearms marketplace that helps users find buyers and sellers in their local market and effect transactions in the simplest way possible.

Disclaimer: This article is aimed at helping those who are not sure where to start their research process.* It is not a definitive guide to firearms purchases.* Some of the information is generalized and all readers should conduct further research before making any decision.

Nearly every American man has heard the story of the shootout at the OK Corral.* Wyatt Earp and his cohorts confronted a group of outlaw cowboys and emerged victorious.* While much myth and mystery surrounds the circumstances of this encounter, a few things are very clear.* Wyatt Earp was proficient with his Colt Peacemaker and Doc Holiday with the shotgun. While much has changed since the days of the Wild West, both the handgun and the shotgun remain top choices for clearing out ruffians who are encroaching on your territory.*

A man has always been the king of his castle and protector of his domain. When things go bump in the night, it's your job to check on things. What should you grab when you head downstairs? Today we'll the discuss the best guns for home defense as well as some of the pros and cons of each.

Training

Gun safety training is essential for every man.

Before you even think about purchasing a gun, it is imperative that you are trained on how to properly use it. Remember: guns are a weapon. With the right to bear arms comes the heavy responsibility of handling them with the precaution and respect they deserve.

Moreover, a gun in the hands of man who doesn't know what he's doing with it is a liability to him and to his family. Regardless of what you purchase, you should frequent the firing range, take a firearms course, and attend or even partake in shooting events. All of these tasks will help you to learn to properly handle firearms.

Here are some resources to check out to get started:

Appleseed Project, a grassroots marksmanship program: http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

IDPA, Defensive Pistol shooting: http://www.idpa.com/

The Best Guns for Home Defense

Pump Action Shotgun



Mossberg 500 – 12 Gauge Pump Shotgun

The general consensus in the firearms community is that the pump action shotgun is the top choice for home defense. They're relatively easy to use and nearly impossible to break. More importantly, the sound of chambering a hot round into a pump action 12 gauge is sure to soil the britches of even the most hardened criminal.

The Mossberg 500 and the Remington 870 are extremely popular choices in this category.* Both are proven to be extremely reliable for a reasonable price, beginning at around $200.

Ease of Use and Reliability

The pump action shotgun is a relatively simple weapon to use.* Shotgun shells are loaded into the gun, and the pump action chambers a round. Pulling the trigger fires the chambered round.* The next pump ejects the spent shell and loads another round into the chamber. *These attributes contribute to the pump action shotgun's reliability.

Effectiveness

Shotguns are most commonly used to fire a number of projectiles, anywhere from roughly nine pellets used in 00 buckshot up to hundreds of bb sized pellets in bird shot. *At close range and with proper ammunition, shotguns can be extremely effective in defending you and your loved ones.

For more information on different types of shot and their ballistic qualities, refer to this article.

Verdict (out of 5)

Cost: 5

Ease of Use: 4

Reliability: 5

Effectiveness: 5

Bonus: (Sound of chambering a round)

Overall: 4.75

Revolver




Smith & Wesson 686 .357 Mag 4″, 6 round

The next best weapon for home defense is the revolver.* Revolvers are the simplest and most reliable of hand guns. *One of the major advantages of the revolver is its small size which allows for easy storage and access.* Also, another benefit of the revolver is its price. You can find quality revolvers for as little as a few hundred dollars.

Ease of Use & Reliability

Revolvers are produced in double action and single action varieties.* Single action revolvers require the user to pull back the hammer manually before firing the gun.* Most modern revolvers offer double action operation which alleviates the need to pull back the hammer before firing the weapon. While there are advantages to using a single-action revolver, the double-action revolver is the superior choice for home defense because of its ease of use. When an intruder has entered your home, you don't want to have to think about cocking a gun.

Because of it's simple design, the revolver is an extremely reliable weapon. Unlike semi-automatic weapons, it is nearly impossible for a revolver to jam. If there is a round in the cylinder of a double-action revolver, pulling the trigger will fire the gun.* Simple as that. This simplicity is an important factor for use in already stressful situations.

One drawback on revolvers, or any handgun for that matter, is the skill required to properly and effectively operate them. Don't be fooled by your hours of playing Duck Hunt. Hitting a target, even if it's just a few feet away, is deceptively difficult.

Effectiveness

Handguns are produced in a number of different calibers and the stopping power is dependent upon which round is used. Common choices are .38 Special (also available in a slightly stronger "+P" variety), .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .45 Long Colt. *One advantage to buying a .357 revolver is that the owner can use .38 special, .38 special +P, or .357 magnum rounds as the gun accepts and safely fires all of them.* (Conversely, a .38 revolver cannot fire .357 magnum.)

It's important to consider that larger caliber revolvers may be more difficult to fire accurately in quick succession.* Unfortunately, smaller caliber revolvers may lack the stopping power necessary to quickly incapacitate an attacker.

Further reading about stopping power.
Further reading about wound ballistics studies.
Further reading about .357 Magnum and .38 Special +P
Visual comparison of common handgun cartridges. Left to right:


1) 3 inch 12 ga magnum shotgun shell
2) AA battery (for size comparison)
3) .454 Casull
4) .45 Winchester Magnum
5) .44 Remington Magnum
6) .357 Magnum
7) .38 Special
8) .45 ACP
9) .38 Super
10) 9 mm Luger
11) .32 ACP
12) .22 LR

Verdict

Cost:4

Ease of Use: 3

Reliability: 5

Effectiveness: 3

Overall: 3.75

Semi-Automatic pistols



Les Baer Premier II 1911

Every AoM reader has seen these in movies and TV shows. They're also the guns that most police officers carry. While semi-automatic pistols might be good for cops, they're not a good choice for one's first firearm purchase, at least not when home defense is the primary use. We'll go into why that is further below.

Two iconic semi-automatic pistols are the 1911 variants and polymer pistols such as Glocks. The 1911 has seen action through two world wars and is still in use by US Special Operations and FBI HRT. Glocks have been heralded for their ease of use and reliability and have seen much use in law enforcement. Quality semi-automatic pistols can cost as little as a few hundred or as much as a few thousand.

Ease of Use and Reliability

The operation of a semi-automatic handgun is more complicated than a revolver.* An operator must become familiar with operating slide-stops and safeties, loading magazines, chambering rounds and clearing jams. *The additional actions involved make it less than ideal for those unfamiliar with hand guns.* This, combined with the skill required to accurately shoot a handgun, means that semi-automatic handguns are the least user friendly of the choices mentioned.

Because rounds are automatically loaded and the design is more complex, semi-automatic weapons are also more prone to jamming failures than revolvers.

Because of the semi-automatic handgun's lower reliability and more complicated operation, first time purchasers should probably consider a shotgun or a revolver.

Effectiveness

As with revolvers, effectiveness varies drastically with caliber.* There are many different calibers for semi-automatic handguns. The most common are .380 ACP, 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.* The 9mm is perhaps the most popular caliber, in use by military and law enforcement around the world. The .40 S&W was created by the FBI to allow for additional stopping power over the 9mm.* The 45 ACP came about during the development of the 1911.

Further reading about stopping power.
Further reading about wound ballistics studies.
Verdict

Cost: 3

Ease of Use: 2

Reliability: 3

Effectiveness: 3

Overall: 2.75

Conclusion

This article is aimed at providing a starting place for those that lack prior knowledge of and experience with firearms.* Again, proper education, training, and practice are essential when deciding to purchase a gun.

For another take on what weapons are the best for home defense, see Primer Magazine's article: Hero Training: Best Weapons for Home Defense.

What are your thoughts on the best guns for home defense? Do you prefer a baseball bat over a gun? Let us know in the comments.




Related Posts
The Basics of Cleaning Your Revolver
How to Shoot a Rifle
A Primer on the Shotgun
How to Stock a Home Bar
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Any 'best home defense gun' article that doesn't mention an AR15 isn't worth the electrons wasted to e-distribute it.

And this:
The general consensus in the firearms community is that the pump action shotgun is the top choice for home defense. They're relatively easy to use and nearly impossible to break. More importantly, the sound of chambering a hot round into a pump action 12 gauge is sure to soil the britches of even the most hardened criminal.
:rolleyes: At least they didn't talk about rock salt ammo, bird shot, wall non-penetration fables, and not having to aim it.

But what's not to like? Except low capacity, high recoil, short-stroking under stress ...

Benelli M4 with an extended tube solves some of that. I'm still planning to buy one, but I keep getting distracted by other guns.



doctor712 said:
I cannot believe you are recommending a .357 instead of a .9mm around the house for safety.

I don't get that at all.

What exactly do you mean by this? That .357 is inadequate, or that 9mm is less dangerous? I don't see where you're going.
 
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