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This should be considered a Medical/Clinical job, yes?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical Allopathic [ MD ]' started by HinduHammer, 05.16.14.

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  1. HinduHammer

    HinduHammer We Do Not Sow 2+ Year Member

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    Preface: FWIW this may be one of my most meaningful experiences since it was during this period in my life where I started realizing with all the crap physicians have to go through I'd much rather be one of those than work in sales and make decent money for business owners. (The only thing preventing me was thinking that due to my poor undergraduate grades I was not competitive for medicine = lack of confidence), but I digress..

    So, I worked for 2+ years as an EMR/e-prescribing business development manager and sales person. About 55% of my total time was spent on the phone and gotomeeting screen with physicians, nurses, and office managers showing them e-prescribing and electronic medical record software, describing using the software in patient workflow, how to document various procedures, notes, consultations, etc.; and listening to unique provider situations and coming up with software work-arounds that our software team would add in their product.

    Another 25% of my time was made taking trips to individual doctor's offices specializing in ortho or ophtha to pitch our product. This required me to know extensive knowledge about everything from HIPAA, CMS incentives, the HITECH act, and HIT legislation at the state level as well. I also pitched provider groups and hospital systems.

    Further I spent much time at doctor's offices (partnered with our company) during my initial training to get accustomed to patient workflow and how software can help handle every part of a physician's practice from claims, billing, practice management, notes, etc.

    The last 20% of my time was general business work such as meetings, marketing, training, going over contracts with our people and their people, etc.

    Since most of my time was spent in a "clinical" mindset talking with physicians about their practices and understanding what they do on a day to day basis, I am inclined to list this experience as medical/clinical.

    Do you agree?

    Thanks.
     
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  3. Oso

    Oso

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    Did you have any interactions with actual patients? I think that's how most people define a clinical experience. Your job sounds like a 'medically related' job, but not really clinical experience. Often people gain this experience through hospital or hospice volunteering, scribing, EMT, etc..
     
  4. ridethecliche

    ridethecliche Meep Meep Meep 5+ Year Member

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    I don't think you understand what clinical means.
     
  5. LizzyM

    LizzyM the evil queen of numbers SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    Employment is tagged as military or non-military. This was not "volunteer-clinical".
     
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  6. Catalystik

    Catalystik Providing herd protection SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    AMCAS categories have changed to include:

    Paid Employment - Medical/Clinical
    Paid Employment - Non Medical/Clinical
    Military Service
    Physician Shadowing/Clinical Observation
     
  7. Keladry

    Keladry 2+ Year Member

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    If you make good use of the space given to describe the job, adcom members will realize that it's significant to your medical career, regardless of what category you put it in.
     
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  8. LizzyM

    LizzyM the evil queen of numbers SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    It's always something... thanks for the update!

    All the more reason to ask, "were you in proximity to people wearing plastic ID bracelets?" If not, "were you in proximity to people and their medical records?" If yes to at least one question, it might be a clinical experience.
     
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  9. HinduHammer

    HinduHammer We Do Not Sow 2+ Year Member

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    @ridethecliche
    Your sarcasm and lack of helpfulness says much more about you than me. A quick search of your sdn postings says much more about you than that.
     
    Last edited: 05.16.14
  10. HinduHammer

    HinduHammer We Do Not Sow 2+ Year Member

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    During training I shadowed doctors while they saw patients. I was a scribe also and technically in neither position did we "interact with patients"
     
  11. HinduHammer

    HinduHammer We Do Not Sow 2+ Year Member

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    Proximity to medical records, yes. Often physicians or .nurses would call me and say "this patient needs so and so filled at the local walgreens but the software is not letting me send it there." I would remotely log into their Emr as an admin and see that due to a drug drgug interaction, the system will not send it out until a physician electronically signs that they understand the risk. This is just one example of many times where I was in "proximity" to patient records.
    Please forgive typos I am on my phone.
     
  12. mehc012

    mehc012 Big Damn Hero 2+ Year Member

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    You never spoke to a single patient while scribing?
     
  13. masaraksh

    masaraksh 5+ Year Member

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    I'd say this is clinical in the same way that working as a medicinal chemist for a pharma company is clinical. As in, it's not.

    You could have worked in IT selling servers to large hospitals. Still doesn't make the job clinical

    Intimately defer to @LizzyM Though
     
  14. HinduHammer

    HinduHammer We Do Not Sow 2+ Year Member

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    @Oso @mehc012
    Well during my training I did interact with patients as in being introduced to them explaining that I was there to understand how their workup would be entered into the medical record etc. As a scribe, I was not technically "allowed" to interact with patients. The doc would (usually) introduce me as the scribe and I would smile and wave - but that was usually about it. Of course there were dozens of times when the doc asked me to get water for the patient or bring them a warm blanket. There were also times when the patient would just start talking to me, and I couldn't just not engage. Once or twice the doc let me glove in on a minor procedure too, like a hip reduction. But my point is, clearly scribes are clinical experience but as an EMR manager/salesperson I dealt with physicians of all stripes DAILY.

    @Keladry
    Thanks for your response, I appreciate your perspective. I am afraid that AdComs might just glance over my application and discount my job as business/sales if its not marked as clinical/medical. With the time they have per applicant, I don't blame them, but I also would like this experience to get read and weighed for what it was -- as I've heard over and over that understanding what the daily life of a physician is, which unfortunately includes tons of screen time, is important -- and I have this experience. Perhaps my fear is unfounded but that's what it is. If AdComs take the time to look at my application and read it, though, I think you're right that they will realize its important to my career/application -- IF they read it.

    @masaraksh
    I disagree with your reasoning. If I were selling hospitals large servers or a medicinal chemist, I would not be speaking to physicians and nurses daily, visiting their offices weekly or monthly. and becoming intimately familiar with their patient workups and workflow ("I'm a primary care doc, 80% of my patients are on simvastatin, do I need to click "refill simvastatin" EVERY time or can it just be a default setting?"). For this reason that I may know more about outpatient family medicine, primary care, ortho, and ophtha work-ups and workflows -- and have accessed patients charts as they were in the doctor's offices while I may have been states away -- I believe this is clinical/medical. (The definition of medical ("of or relating to the science of medicine, or to the treatment of illness and injuries.") and clinical ("of or relating to the observation and treatment of actual patients rather than theoretical or laboratory studies.") fits my job I think, as I indirectly "helped" physicians comply with government regulation but more importantly allowed them to see more patients daily, have software that could check for common mistakes like the example above of drug-drug interactions, and filled in common PEx findings for certain diagnoses, allowing them to save time on charting.

    @LizzyM @Catalystik
    As AdComs, I just wanted to get your opinion on this because I personally believe it is clinical/medical as I talked to hundreds of medical providers discussing their patients generally and specifically, their individual workflows, coding/billing issues, their treatment algorithms, etc. However, I do not want to seem by medical schools to be "stretching" it or something they perceive to be "false advertising." I have no problem designating it as non-medical, but I think it is, and want to know if I put it like this on AMCAS if you were the AdCom reading it that you would not think worse of me for designating it so.

    Thanks for your help!
     
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  15. LizzyM

    LizzyM the evil queen of numbers SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    I could see some adcom members discounting it because you did not put your hands on the patient (like an EMT would do) and in all likelihood you did not speak to patients or do things for them such as fetch water or push their wheelchairs.

    It is better to be "modest" and say "non-clinical" and then be bumped up than to stretch and be squashed.
     
  16. Catalystik

    Catalystik Providing herd protection SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    As you've been a scribe, you are not desperate for a Medical/Clinical listing of some sort. Instead of the Medical/Clinical tag, why not add "&Physician Shadowing" to whatever thoughtful title you come up with for this Employment activity, to cue (truthfully) readers in that the activity has additional relevance. Since you're using a "Most Meaningful" designation, you'll have plenty of space to include all the above meaty descriptions of what you do.

    I doubt you want to annoy adcomms by using a designation that implies patient interaction, when it is not the focus of your job. @Keladry hit the nail on the head with the comment:
     
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  17. mehc012

    mehc012 Big Damn Hero 2+ Year Member

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    Oh trust me, I know what scribes do...I was raising my eyebrow at you for suggesting that scribes don't interact with patients!
     
  18. HinduHammer

    HinduHammer We Do Not Sow 2+ Year Member

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    @LizzyM @Catalystik

    Thank you both very much for your responses! This is why SDN is great (sometimes), I was planning on doing one thing but after getting some relevant feedback decide to play it differently. I will list it as non-clinical (to avoid annoying adcoms) and add more description to the title as Catalystik suggested. I will also take @Keladry 's advice.

    Not to thread hijack myself, but I have one more question:

    I am a founding board member of a medically related foundation, how would your list this on AMCAS - as leadership/not listed elsewhere or as community service/volunteer - medical/clinical?

    Backstory: My good friend just graduated MD/PhD and is starting residency this year in a genetics track. His goal is to run his own academic medicine research lab in the field of genetics more specifically genetic diseases. His medical track will be diagnosing pediatric patients who are suffering from some unknown genetic disease at birth. So he'll have clinic days and also run a lab.

    I have a mentally/physically handicapped older sister as a result of genetic disease, who has been a big influence on my wanting to enter medicine. I also work in a research lab at present. We were discussing about 6 months ago the trials and tribulations of grant money and how the academic institution will usually take a large amount of the grant money awarded for a specific individual, as was the case many times with my friend.

    So, we had an idea to start a foundation as a place where donors could give money to a foundation, instead of a school or lab, and we would use this money to fund research independently: rent lab space, pay for an undergrad to run assays etc. My friend would be the PI as he has his MD/PhD (but won't have time to do research as he will be in an IM residency - probably the rules may not allow him to do so either), I would be involved with experiment design, case review (which genetic disease cases will we choose to investigate further, which ones either are already sufficiently investigated or which we do not have the means to start research on at this time, etc.). So, any research/papers that gets done from this endeavor, I would be 2nd or 3rd/4th author after the PI and any undergrads who might be doing a majority of the leg-work (if any).

    Long story short: My MD/PhD friend and I decided to start a foundation as a destination for money to go and to fund research activities while my friend is in his IM residency. His long-term goal is to do academic medicine in genetics research. My long term goal is to be a clinician, but am highly interested in genetic disease research due to my sister. My role in the foundation will be case review, research/experiment design, editing, donor solicitation, and administrative.
    How would you list this on AMCAS?

    Thanks again for your help!
     
  19. mehc012

    mehc012 Big Damn Hero 2+ Year Member

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    Volunteer/nonclinical.
    Remember:
    Medically related ≠ Clinical experience (or Medical/clinical designation on AMCAS)

    Adcoms aren't dumb, they can figure out that your experience is medically related from your description.
    However, that does NOT make it clinical experience.
    If you can smell patients, it is a clinical experience (Thanks @LizzyM )
     
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  20. HinduHammer

    HinduHammer We Do Not Sow 2+ Year Member

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    Hi @Catalystik and @LizzyM

    I was wondering if I could trouble you for your opinion once more on this situation: Do you agree that being a founding board member of a foundation with the express purpose of researching genetic disease under the heading of an MD/PhD currently in residency should be "volunteering-(non-clinical)" instead of "volunteering-(clinical)" or "leadership - not listed elsewhere"?

    I have bolded the relevant information - thank you!:

    I am a founding board member of a medically related foundation, how would your list this on AMCAS - as leadership/not listed elsewhere or as community service/volunteer - medical/clinical?

    Long story short: My MD/PhD friend and I decided to start a foundation as a destination for money to go and to fund research activities while my friend is in his IM residency. His long-term goal is to do academic medicine in genetics research. My long term goal is to be a clinician, but am highly interested in genetic disease research due to my sister. My role in the foundation will be case review, research/experiment design, editing, donor solicitation, and administrative.
    How would you list this on AMCAS?
     
  21. LizzyM

    LizzyM the evil queen of numbers SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

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    It sounds like "leadership, not listed elsewhere" or "volunteer, non-clinical" would be the correct choices. However, starting a foundation is pretty heady stuff.... what qualifies you to do "case review" (do you mean review of grant proposals?) research/experimental design, and so forth. Are you really qualified to run a charity? Are you a 401.3c not-for-profit? Did you file a 990 last year with the IRS? Where does your funding come from? Do you pay yourselves salaries for administration of the charity? You might decide that this is not something you want to be grilled about at interview. Some of these charities for medical research are pretty shady money laundering deals these days.
     
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  22. HinduHammer

    HinduHammer We Do Not Sow 2+ Year Member

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    Hi @LizzyM

    Thank you for the reply and for bringing up these questions.

    Are you a 401.3c not-for-profit? Did you file a 990 last year with the IRS?

    So, my MD/PhD friend's dad is a lawyer and is kindly handling the setting-up of this charity, it is still in its infancy stages. So far I basically wrote the founding documents, charter, purpose, operational structure, etc - my friend's dad is working with a law center at the university to get us set-up in an expedited fashion. We will be a 401.3c not-for-profit, but the entire process could take up to a year. I believe in the mean time we are still allowed to do our activities. I will have to double-check.

    Do you pay yourselves salaries for administration of the charity?
    Absolutely not. The main premise for this charity came from a situation wherein while my friend was in his MD/PhD program, there were organizations that wanted to give money to his lab for him specifically, they would only give to the lab if the money were used to fund my friend's research. He found out that the university (Baylor in this case) took a large portion of the money, like 30%+. Now that he has graduated the situation is that there are still donors who want to give money to his research (several of them are parents or groups of parents of children with extremely rare genetic diseases) but since he is not associated with a lab - he can't just take their money. If he were to have a lab under the auspices of a university, he would have to give an even larger amount of the donations for research to the university for "overhead" costs.

    Instead, he found the work-around to be setting up a foundation wherein donors could give money to the foundation, and we could then use the money to a. pay for rent at either a university or more likely private lab space b. pay for an undergraduate to perform the research while my friend is in residency and me ostensibly will be applying/interviewing/in medical school c. pay for materials, computers, instruments, etc.

    I personally wouldn't be getting a salary, and the only foreseeable perks *might* be paying for tickets or travel to a conference to present at some point down the line.

    Are you really qualified to run a charity?

    So I have had internships with two congressman, one as a district intern in Louisiana following Katrina, so I had alot of familiarity with money disbursement and bureaucracy; my other internship was a campaign internship where I did a fair amount of donor solicitation and fundraising.
    This I believe qualifies me to do administration/fundraising/marketing/etc. I have also worked for a few years in business as seen above in the medical software field so I have a tiny bit of business acumen.
    There are three board members in total.

    Am I qualified? Let's hope so! (I really don't know, but maybe).

    What qualifies you to do "case review" (do you mean review of grant proposals?) research/experimental design, and so forth.

    I have worked as a government contractor in an FDA lab for the past year under an awesome PI (Spectroscopy) and am working on a paper now (principal component analysis of excipients in pharmaceutical products to determine adulteration in the manufacuring processes) - I have been hands-on in every step of the research including experiment design. I am also an author on a paper in the Jan/Feb issue of the American Pharmaceutical Review (not sure how prestigious but it is a national journal).

    While my friend will be doing most of the research design, I will have a hand in it as well as reviewing all the cases that come in asking us to do research on their children's disorders and determining if we have the capability to do such research or if we want to devote the time to do it. I will basically be a second pair of hands/eyes and sometimes the primary pair of eyes as my friend will be in his intern year next year and super busy.

    I would also be writing grant proposals with my friend reviewing them and both of us collaborating on them.


    ----

    Given all that, do you have any further thoughts? I personally think its a great thing, and I hope will show medical schools that I care about genetic disease research...while I do not want to be a researcher in my career, my genetically diseased sister has been a HUGE influence on me in my life and desire to pursue medicine. I believe this experience kind of "solidifies" that in a way, I am taking action to "fix" the problem of genetic diseases in whatever small way I can.

    (PS one of my most meaningful activities will be as a caregiver to my sister).

    Any further thoughts you have would be helpful. And, lastly, do you see any advantage in picking "Leadership not listed elsewhere" versus "community service - not clinical" over the other?

    Thank you again very much.
     
    Last edited: 05.21.14
  23. Goro

    Goro 5+ Year Member

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    100% agree with my learned colleague. My students, wo take part in interviews at my school, in particular would jump all over you for trying to equate "business" with "clinical".

     
  24. HinduHammer

    HinduHammer We Do Not Sow 2+ Year Member

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    Thanks @Goro . The more I've thought about it, I understand how its much more appropriate to put in non-clinical. However, I started this thread because it was a very interesting job wherein I spoke to doctors and nurses almost daily and learned a great deal about the average day of a physician and about the various specialties, what kind of patients they see, procedures they do, etc. Anyway, I will be designating it as non-clinical. (I hope you know it was never my intention to "fool" anyone, its just a unique job that I thought could go either way!)

    Also, if you have any thoughts on this other position, being a board member in a medical research non profit, I would be much appreciative!
     
  25. mehc012

    mehc012 Big Damn Hero 2+ Year Member

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    Honestly, this sounds great.
    Here's the issue Re: clinical, though...
    In your entire long long description, you did not once use the word 'patient'. If you can describe the entire activity in great detail without mentioning patients or hell, even physicians (other than "my friend is in residency") or nurses, IT IS NOT CLINICAL. Bottom line.
     
  26. mehc012

    mehc012 Big Damn Hero 2+ Year Member

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    Ugh, my computer took too long to load the quote and you beat me to posting. Sorry to beat a dead horse when you'd already moved on.
     
  27. HinduHammer

    HinduHammer We Do Not Sow 2+ Year Member

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    Lol, no problem. For anyone who is reading this disjointed thread there were two issues.

    1. was my EMR job clinical/medical or not. Conclusion: I will designate it "not clinical or medical."

    2. is being founding board member of a medical research non profit clinical/medical volunteering, non-clinical volunteering, or leadership not listed elsewhere. Conclusion: Definitely not clinical. Not sure whether 'leadership' or 'non clinical volunteering' is more appropriate/beneficial/if it matters at all.


     
  28. mehc012

    mehc012 Big Damn Hero 2+ Year Member

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    Leadership seems far more appropriate to me. Yes, you are volunteering your time, but it is far more important to highlight the fact that you have initiative, responsibility, organization, etc. Adcoms will see that it is volunteer anyway if they read the description at all.
     
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  29. cmlanz

    cmlanz

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    @Goro @LizzyM I have a similar problem. I worked at a medical school in a center for clinical research one summer. I was an "intern" which meant consolidating patient files and creating/updating an EMR system. I attended all meetings and worked directly with clinical researchers.

    Because I worked in a hospital, in a clinical research lab, I previously considered this to be a "clinical" work experience. After reading this thread I'm leaning toward "non-clinical." Is this right? Feedback is very much appreciated! Thank you.
     
  30. Goro

    Goro 5+ Year Member

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    To me it seems much more non-clinical, than clinicial. After all, someone who waxed the floors at a hospital or did the laudry of the surgical gowns wouldn't be "clinical", would it?

     
  31. mehc012

    mehc012 Big Damn Hero 2+ Year Member

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    Which is kind of funny, because somebody who puts blankets away and stocks shelves is typically counted as clinical...only difference is you get paid to wax floors.
     
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