Thoughtful piece. Users of SDN (including myself) may benefit.

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Wait, the Ivies don't auto-grant their students life experience?!?

But joking aside, this is why I really approve of schools who recognize that SE diversity is just as vital, if not more, as any other form. It's amazing how strong the SE class barriers can be...and how often people either don't notice it, or dismiss it as unimportant because they utterly devalue the merits of the other side of the equation.
 
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this was really well written
 
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I go to one of the universities that the author is targeting. While I cannot say my experiences represent everyone's, everything that the author says is 100% true and applicable to my university.
 
Wow, good article. I remember this is exactly why my sociology professor said she didn't like the "quota" aspect of affirmative action - she said that it just favors the affluent minorities. I can't really say I disagree with that assessment. It's unfortunate that not every gifted mind gets the necessary opportunities to cultivate that intelligence. I wish I knew of a solution.
 
The author has a more recent piece on a similar theme: Don't Send Your Kid to the Ivy League

It opens with an interesting anecdote about how admissions work at these schools.

I think the whole limiting the number of extracurriculars you can list idea mentioned in this would really help with most admissions processes. Too many of my friends have a desire to get 15 activities. Its absurd! They have 2-3 that matter to them and they actually enjoy. I listed 7 things, I could've honestly narrowed it down to 3. Imagine how much more interesting that section would be if they limited it to 5 instead of 15.
 
I think the whole limiting the number of extracurriculars you can list idea mentioned in this would really help with most admissions processes. Too many of my friends have a desire to get 15 activities. Its absurd! They have 2-3 that matter to them and they actually enjoy. I listed 7 things, I could've honestly narrowed it down to 3. Imagine how much more interesting that section would be if they limited it to 5 instead of 15.
That is an intriguing idea. Here's the relevant part of the article about Yale's undergrad admissions:
Kids who had five or six items on their list of extracurriculars—the “brag”—were already in trouble, because that wasn’t nearly enough.
Scary thought. The author recommends:
Colleges should put an end to résumé-stuffing by imposing a limit on the number of extracurriculars that kids can list on their applications. They ought to place more value on the kind of service jobs that lower-income students often take in high school and that high achievers almost never do. They should refuse to be impressed by any opportunity that was enabled by parental wealth. Of course, they have to stop cooperating with U.S. News.
That does sound like it would improve med school admissions.
 
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That does sound like it would improve med school admissions.

This already happens in medical school admissions with the limit of 15 activities. I can assure you with a high degree of confidence that without that limit there would be people who put many, many more activities than that.
 
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It's amazing how strong the SE class barriers can be...and how often people either don't notice it, or dismiss it as unimportant because they utterly devalue the merits of the other side of the equation.
This is such a valuable insight, @mehc012.
 
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This already happens in medical school admissions with the limit of 15 activities. I can assure you with a high degree of confidence that without that limit there would be people who put many, many more activities than that.

That may be true, but i still think 15 is too many. How many people have 15 individual experiences that are really that in depth?
 
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Good article. I agree, 15 is too many, but most schools wont fault you if you don't have 15.
 
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Wait, the Ivies don't auto-grant their students life experience?!?

But joking aside, this is why I really approve of schools who recognize that SE diversity is just as vital, if not more, as any other form. It's amazing how strong the SE class barriers can be...and how often people either don't notice it, or dismiss it as unimportant because they utterly devalue the merits of the other side of the equation.

I can only speak for Columbia, but about 50% of the student body pays full tuition while the other half receives need-based scholarships. For households that make less than $60,000 tuition, other fees, room and board, etc. are covered. This, however, does not mean than the side paying full tuition and the "full-ride" people actually intermingle. Plenty of schools recognize the need for SE diversity and try to meet it by doing aid-blind admissions, but there are no actual steps to integrate students of different backgrounds. The idea that Ivy League schools are still exclusively home to the privileged and white makes invisible a significant population of students, all for the sake of a news-worthy narrative.

https://www.facebook.com/columbiaclassconfessions
 
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That's often because poor students are priced out of networking and bonding events because they don't have the discretionary income for that. Err... Rather their parents don't.
 
I can only speak for Columbia, but about 50% of the student body pays full tuition while the other half receives need-based scholarships. For households that make less than $60,000 tuition, other fees, room and board, etc. are covered. This, however, does not mean than the side paying full tuition and the "full-ride" people actually intermingle. Plenty of schools recognize the need for SE diversity and try to meet it by doing aid-blind admissions, but there are no actual steps to integrate students of different backgrounds. The idea that Ivy League schools are still exclusively home to the privileged and white makes invisible a significant population of students, all for the sake of a news-worthy narrative.

https://www.facebook.com/columbiaclassconfessions
Same 50% stat at my ivy league alma mater, but if you look closer you see that all students whose family incomes are less than $180,000 receive some sort of need-based aid. And that's great, but that means a full half of students come from families making more than $180,000 a year. Which is crazy. The resources are clearly there for students of lower SES, but not enough are taking advantage of it to actually change the school culture, which still is very stratified and a lot of the social scene is totally inaccessible to students who don't come from really wealthy families.
 
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I can only speak for Columbia, but about 50% of the student body pays full tuition while the other half receives need-based scholarships. For households that make less than $60,000 tuition, other fees, room and board, etc. are covered. This, however, does not mean than the side paying full tuition and the "full-ride" people actually intermingle. Plenty of schools recognize the need for SE diversity and try to meet it by doing aid-blind admissions, but there are no actual steps to integrate students of different backgrounds. The idea that Ivy League schools are still exclusively home to the privileged and white makes invisible a significant population of students, all for the sake of a news-worthy narrative.

https://www.facebook.com/columbiaclassconfessions
Yup. I went to a school which, while not technically an Ivy, is in the same ranking/price bracket/percentage of ridiculously wealthy students. My dorm-mate's parents were running the US economy or owning national hospital networks. I was the only one on my floor who was on financial aid. It was a bit of a culture shock, to say the least, and I definitely feel as if the accommodation came much more from the poor side of the pool than the wealthy. We learned to blend in and interact smoothly with our well-off counterparts, and to spare them awkwardness, rather than the other way around. I don't particularly mind that, as I think it is a valuable skill to have...but it certainly didn't help them any. I wouldn't say that the average student gleaned much benefit from the SE diversity which was present - instead, we all learned how to gloss it over and to ignore its existence.

Even measures taken to help protect the low SE students from embarrassment (such as buying our textbooks for us at the normal book store instead of making us publicly stand in line at the textbook library, which only finaid kids were allowed to utilize), while awesome for those with limited budgets, only served to further bury any evidence of SE diversity. On one hand, I get it, and I really appreciate it, but on the other I was forced to think "wait, was I supposed to be embarrassed that I am budget-conscious enough to wait in line for hours to rent textbooks for free rather than dropping hundreds on them?" It simply had never occurred to me that that was something I'd want to hide until the school made a point of helping me do so. :shrug: It was more as if our school granted us lower-SE kids the opportunity to live as if we were well-off than that all students were exposed to people with different ways of life. From my end, that was great...but it probably did little to help close the gap in the long run.

Working in the ED post-graduation, I cannot count the number of ignorant, hateful comments I've heard from care providers (mostly PAs, actually, but a few docs) about poor people, those on Medicaid, those with housing subsidies, etc. They seem to have nothing but disdain for a large portion of their client base, and that always, fundamentally, bothered me. It was not my place to speak up, so I would sit there, silently, as the people on either side of me carried on a conversation utterly disrespecting those of lower SE statuses both in and out of the hospital, and making it clear that they just *do not* understand that perspective, at all...I would sit there, seething, and resolve to make it into med school so that ten years down the line, maybe I'd be in a position to gainsay such ignorance. At the very least, I hope I will be able to carry the perspective of my less-fortunate years into my own practice.
 
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What's the point of a slots limit if the limit doesn't matter?

I agree in that no matter the number it's arbitrary. But "how many people actually have 15 in-depth experiences to include in their app?" is quite possibly the worst. I regularly see people use all slots on non-fluff stuff.
 
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QUOTE[Working in the ED post-graduation, I cannot count the number of ignorant, hateful comments I've heard from care providers (mostly PAs, actually, but a few docs) about poor people, those on Medicaid, those with housing subsidies, etc. They seem to have nothing but disdain for a large portion of their client base, and that always, fundamentally, bothered me. It was not my place to speak up, so I would sit there, silently, as the people on either side of me carried on a conversation utterly disrespecting those of lower SE statuses both in and out of the hospital, and making it clear that they just *do not* understand that perspective, at all...I would sit there, seething, and resolve to make it into med school so that ten years down the line, maybe I'd be in a position to gainsay such ignorance. At the very least, I hope I will be able to carry the perspective of my less-fortunate years into my own practice.[/QUOTE]



Really glad you are going to be a doc.
 
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I remember reading this article a few years ago and agreeing with some but not all of the points. I also think that this is an interesting rebuttal to it (presented in crude comic form on a blog).
http://www.willa.me/2012/07/why-ivy-league-grads-arent-all.html

Namely, it also points out the fact that sometimes it takes being surrounded by other intelligent peers to humble oneself. A big fish in a small pond will likely possess a greater ego than a small fish in a big pond.
 
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I can only speak for Columbia, but about 50% of the student body pays full tuition while the other half receives need-based scholarships. For households that make less than $60,000 tuition, other fees, room and board, etc. are covered. This, however, does not mean than the side paying full tuition and the "full-ride" people actually intermingle. Plenty of schools recognize the need for SE diversity and try to meet it by doing aid-blind admissions, but there are no actual steps to integrate students of different backgrounds. The idea that Ivy League schools are still exclusively home to the privileged and white makes invisible a significant population of students, all for the sake of a news-worthy narrative.

https://www.facebook.com/columbiaclassconfessions


...this isn't common knowledge amongst people of lower SES though. Even if it was, I doubt that would result in a significant increase of lower SES students at these schools, as their likelihood of having a competitive application it is low. A lot of low SES kids , such as myself, get sidetracked early in our education and any chances of getting into a school like Yale would be nearly impossible.

I think it's also surreal that a household income of <60k is low enough to merit a full-ride; that's roughly 11k more than the median household income in my state. That's not to say that it isn't generous, but the people who could benefit the most from the economic mobility that an ivy education provides are usually already shut out of the system. It's rare that a very low SES student will get the resources and encouragement they need to make it into an Ivy League school.
 
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That's because if Harvard et al. really cared about equality they wouldn't be accepting >50% of the .1%. If they actually did that, Harvard would lose its luster, since it's not really about getting an education it's about connecting with rich people that can help you down the line (potentially). Who would go to Harvard if there were no sons/daughters of the titans of industry?
 
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After reading TDTAEE, Columbia's confession page, and the comic, I feel like a total plebeian at community college.

):
 
...this isn't common knowledge amongst people of lower SES though. Even if it was, I doubt that would result in a significant increase of lower SES students at these schools, as their likelihood of having a competitive application it is low. A lot of low SES kids , such as myself, get sidetracked early in our education and any chances of getting into a school like Yale would be nearly impossible.

I think it's also surreal that a household income of <60k is low enough to merit a full-ride; that's roughly 11k more than the median household income in my state. That's not to say that it isn't generous, but the people who could benefit the most from the economic mobility that an ivy education provides are usually already shut out of the system. It's rare that a very low SES student will get the resources and encouragement they need to make it into an Ivy League school.

The fortunate thing for you is that success in life does not require an Ivy League education.
 
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Same 50% stat at my ivy league alma mater, but if you look closer you see that all students whose family incomes are less than $180,000 receive some sort of need-based aid. And that's great, but that means a full half of students come from families making more than $180,000 a year. Which is crazy. The resources are clearly there for students of lower SES, but not enough are taking advantage of it to actually change the school culture, which still is very stratified and a lot of the social scene is totally inaccessible to students who don't come from really wealthy families.
What the hell kind of events are those rich kids engaging in that are so unaffordable? Hunting the homeless from helicopters in the jungles of Belize or something?
 
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I manage a large workforce of blue collar laborers. We talk about boats, guns, dirtbikes and beer. Everyone really likes me. Sounds like the guy in the article just needs some cooler hobbies.
 
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What the hell kind of events are those rich kids engaging in that are so unaffordable? Hunting the homeless from helicopters in the jungles of Belize or something?

Greek life and philanthropy actually. Two really big parts of undergrad social life. Anyone can do philanthropy but one needs the time to devote to it and thats hard to do if you work.

Greek life is the bigger one. It's rich kid central and the fees for some Greek groups are larger than the cost of attendance here. "Fiji" for example costs more here than actually going to school here and they have the biggest, nicest house in the campus area (it looks like a plantation). I have a friend at SMU in Dallas (rich kid central in itself) and he rushed. When he was rushing Fiji they asked him what his dad did and if his dad could connect them with job opportunities later down the line. He didn't get too far in the rush process with them.

Greek life is also very, very white and is exclusive for other reasons besides money. Personally, I don't partake in Greek life because I don't see the point in buying my friends and I don't let other people tell me what to wear or how I can and cannot spend my time and with who, however, it's a significant part of college social life - more so at some places than others.

Similarly, I have another friend at Princeton who worked in his family's dry cleaning business in high school to help them out and he was often unavailable, I imagine if you work in undergrad you might be in a similar situation. now that Princeton is paying for his education he has really branched out and become more social.

That being said, it's hard to relate to people taking lavish, frequent vacations with their family in exotic locales or people that talk about investments, sports cars, and "having enough money to live comfortably."

My freshman year I had a conversation with another premed about class in the US and he was shocked to learn that his parents earning 500k+ a year did indeed make him rich. He also feels that 700k+ is the threshold for making "enough" money.

The woes of the leisure class.
 
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My freshman year I had a conversation with another premed about class in the US and he was shocked to learn that his parents earning 500k+ a year did indeed make him rich. He also feels that 700k+ is the threshold for making "enough" money.

The woes of the leisure class.
:barf:
 
I can only speak for Columbia, but about 50% of the student body pays full tuition while the other half receives need-based scholarships. For households that make less than $60,000 tuition, other fees, room and board, etc. are covered. This, however, does not mean than the side paying full tuition and the "full-ride" people actually intermingle. Plenty of schools recognize the need for SE diversity and try to meet it by doing aid-blind admissions, but there are no actual steps to integrate students of different backgrounds. The idea that Ivy League schools are still exclusively home to the privileged and white makes invisible a significant population of students, all for the sake of a news-worthy narrative.

https://www.facebook.com/columbiaclassconfessions
Try and ask what people that go to other ivy league schools think of Columbia. Hint: Not very highly.
 
Try and ask what people that go to other ivy league schools think of Columbia. Hint: Not very highly.

Try asking people that go to any ivy league school what they think of any other ivy league school. People that aren't in HYP think those guys are elitist and totally stuck up. People in HYP think that the others aren't in a "real" ivy.

It's pretty much the most disgusting conversation you can experience.
 
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I never said that it was and I'm glad that it's not.

But you did say this:

...this isn't common knowledge amongst people of lower SES though. Even if it was, I doubt that would result in a significant increase of lower SES students at these schools, as their likelihood of having a competitive application it is low. A lot of low SES kids , such as myself, get sidetracked early in our education and any chances of getting into a school like Yale would be nearly impossible.

I think it's also surreal that a household income of <60k is low enough to merit a full-ride; that's roughly 11k more than the median household income in my state. That's not to say that it isn't generous, but the people who could benefit the most from the economic mobility that an ivy education provides are usually already shut out of the system. It's rare that a very low SES student will get the resources and encouragement they need to make it into an Ivy League school.

This implies two things: economic mobility is most available from an Ivy League education and, conversely, that other avenues that do not include getting an Ivy League education do not provide that same mobility. Both are wrong.
 
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That's like asking a Harvard student what they think of Yalies and vice-versa...
 
That's because if Harvard et al. really cared about equality they wouldn't be accepting >50% of the .1%. If they actually did that, Harvard would lose its luster, since it's not really about getting an education it's about connecting with rich people that can help you down the line (potentially). Who would go to Harvard if there were no sons/daughters of the titans of industry?

Sure, the ability to make connections to other powerful/influential people is important. Could you not say the same thing about going to any prestigious school (in any discipline)? But let's say starting next year we BAN every single person who has a "powerful/rich" family from attending Harvard (so that a 10-time Nobel prize winner who cured cancer would be banned from Harvard if his dad happened to be super rich). Most people would still by lining up to go to Harvard. You still get to be in an environment with extremely accomplished/intelligent peers and you still have access to amazing resources. Many of your accomplished peers will end up becoming powerful/influential (even though they never came from that type of background). It's not an accident that some of the most accomplished/intelligent people at Harvard end up actually becoming some of the most powerful/influential people in society.

The education you get at HYPMS is top-notch. You have some amazing professors and amazing resources beyond the classroom as well. If you are intellectually curious about something, chances are that HYPMS can support you (basically no matter what it is).

And Harvard et. al do care about the non-top 1%. Are you aware of how generous the FA policies are at HYPMS? Over half of the country* could go to HYPMS essentially for free (like 5k per year that would be paid for via work-study). Over 3/4 of the population could go there without really paying any tuition.

*For HYPMS, in general if you make <60k, then you pay essentially nothing. Median family income in the US is like 52k. And even if you make double that (like 100k), you essentially pay 0 tuition and only room/board. It is a great myth that HYPMS is "expensive". They are actually some of the most affordable colleges in the world for the average (or poor) person.


Try and ask what people that go to other ivy league schools think of Columbia. Hint: Not very highly.

It's all relative. If you ask someone to compare HYP vs. Columbia, obviously HYP > Columbia. But in general, Columbia is an extremely good school and is regarded (deservedly) as one of the top schools in the world.
 
Greek life is the bigger one. It's rich kid central and the fees for some Greek groups are larger than the cost of attendance here. "Fiji" for example costs more here than actually going to school here and they have the biggest, nicest house in the campus area (it looks like a plantation). I have a friend at SMU in Dallas (rich kid central in itself) and he rushed. When he was rushing Fiji they asked him what his dad did and if his dad could connect them with job opportunities later down the line. He didn't get too far in the rush process with them.

Greek life is also very, very white and is exclusive for other reasons besides money. Personally, I don't partake in Greek life because I don't see the point in buying my friends and I don't let other people tell me what to wear or how I can and cannot spend my time and with who, however, it's a significant part of college social life - more so at some places than others.

I seriously appreciate my greek experience when I read stuff like this. When all was said and done, COL in the fraternity was about a grand cheaper per year where I went to school (mostly because of the board plan). It was also hard to be elitist or exclusive when over 60% of the students on campus were Greek.

Sure we lived in relative squalor, but it was squalor with a DirecTV and over 250 channels (yay for economies of scale).
 
I seriously appreciate my greek experience when I read stuff like this. When all was said and done, COL in the fraternity was about a grand cheaper per year where I went to school (mostly because of the board plan). It was also hard to be elitist or exclusive when over 60% of the students on campus were Greek.

Sure we lived in relative squalor, but it was squalor with a DirecTV and over 250 channels (yay for economies of scale).

Yah it's not to say that all of Greek life is like this but there are certainly groups that give the rest a bad name. Everyone knows who those people are on their respective campus.
 
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This implies two things: economic mobility is most available from an Ivy League education and, conversely, that other avenues that do not include getting an Ivy League education do not provide that same mobility. Both are wrong.

Yes, you're right. I didn't mean that an Ivy League education is the only way to economic mobility, but my late night rant didn't convey that.
 
Yup. I went to a school which, while not technically an Ivy, is in the same ranking/price bracket/percentage of ridiculously wealthy students. My dorm-mate's parents were running the US economy or owning national hospital networks.... <snip>
At the very least, I hope I will be able to carry the perspective of my less-fortunate years into my own practice.

I cannot say enough how much this reflects both my experience and my personal goals. Kindly continue kicking butt, okay?
 
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