Thoughts on Harvard South Shore for residency?

[Bash Kashp]

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[PsyDr]

oops, i made a mistake. My bad.

 

[tellme_areyoufree]

I liked the program quite a bit when I was there, but unsure about the reputation question. Part of me says if you "don't remember" how you feel about a program, maybe that should say more to you than the program's reputation.

 

[billybb]

Having more than half your training in the VA system is a terrible idea. I loved my VA rotation, but that doesn’t mean it is a good place to be trained. If you want that Harvard name so bad to show off to people outside of psychiatry, it’s fine to compromise your training. But to answer your question about reputation, it is not well respected and not considered a decent program amongst psychiatrists.

 

[SmallBird]

Having more than half your training in the VA system is a terrible idea. I loved my VA rotation, but that doesn’t mean it is a good place to be trained. If you want that Harvard name so bad to show off to people outside of psychiatry, it’s fine to compromise your training. But to answer your question about reputation, it is not well respected and not considered a decent program amongst psychiatrists.

That is completely overstated. Having so much VA based training is a disadvantage, but at both Yale and UPenn you can end up doing more than half your training at a VA if you pick your rotations that way. Well organized VAs have a wealth of services and provide broad systems and diagnostic exposure. HSS might not be super prestigious but their resident have edited the AJP residents journal, many go to great fellowships, and they get jobs. I don’t think that there is any evidence that a large number of psychiatrists think it is not a decent program. I did not go to this program so have no skin in the game but wanted to offer this perspective to the OP.

 

[TexasPhysician]

but their resident have edited the AJP residents journal, many go to great fellowships, and they get jobs. I don’t think that there is any evidence that a large number of psychiatrists think it is not a decent

You just described 95% of psych residencies. HSS is not prestigious. It is heavily VA loaded. It will train you to be a psychiatrist. Otherwise, it’s best to interview and form your own opinion.

 

[billybb]

That is completely overstated. Having so much VA based training is a disadvantage, but at both Yale and UPenn you can end up doing more than half your training at a VA if you pick your rotations that way. Well organized VAs have a wealth of services and provide broad systems and diagnostic exposure. HSS might not be super prestigious but their resident have edited the AJP residents journal, many go to great fellowships, and they get jobs. I don’t think that there is any evidence that a large number of psychiatrists think it is not a decent program. I did not go to this program so have no skin in the game but wanted to offer this perspective to the OP.

Oh really?I interviewed at Yale, but didn’t train there so had no idea that that is the case. Do residents end up choosing that route quite often? I know there are some good research projects at Connecticut VA tied with Yale as well as some solid research fellowships, but doing your whole outpatient with VA patients? Seriously? In our program, VA outpatient is one of the least preferred clinical site (and I don’t think our VA is worse than Brockton VA. It’s actually one of the best VAMC in the country). Sorry I bashed HSS maybe too excessively, but I would seriously think that an outpatient solely based on the VA will not make you a well rounded psychiatist.

 

[SmallBird]

You just described 95% of psych residencies. HSS is not prestigious. It is heavily VA loaded. It will train you to be a psychiatrist. Otherwise, it’s best to interview and form your own opinion.

Never said prestigious - I was responding to the claim that it was ‘not considered decent’.

 

[NontradCA]

Oh really?I interviewed at Yale, but didn’t train there so had no idea that that is the case. Do residents end up choosing that route quite often? I know there are some good research projects at Connecticut VA tied with Yale as well as some solid research fellowships, but doing your whole outpatient with VA patients? Seriously? In our program, VA outpatient is one of the least preferred clinical site (and I don’t think our VA is worse than Brockton VA. It’s actually one of the best VAMC in the country). Sorry I bashed HSS maybe too excessively, but I would seriously think that an outpatient solely based on the VA will not make you a well rounded psychiatist.

I’ve noticed that most residents dislike their VA training (n=30ish, 12 different programs east to west coast) Anyone have insight as to why? I honestly have the impression that most people going into psych/psych residents don’t like veterans. Although whenever I ask why they don’t like the VA they say they love the patients

I don’t have the impression that it’s the quality of the training there.

 

[drsolo]

I interviewed at HSS last year. Boston VA is a tertiary care center with numerous Harvard faculty members and top research opportunities. Got the impression they see a huge range of psychopathology from dual diagnosis / SMI / medically complex pts at the VA to the complete opposite end of the spectrum at Mclean where pts tend to be higher socio-economic status. Over 50% rotations in PGY1 and 2 are non-VA with 8+ months at Mclean (up to 3 months of child at Mclean) and C/L at Beth Israel. Seems like residents matched into top fellowships, including at other Harvard programs. I considered ranking this program #1 but ultimately chose to be closer to my family. Not sure why this place gets so much hate on sdn, but it seemed pretty decent to me.

 

[MrWonderful]

I interviewed at HSS last year. Boston VA is a tertiary care center with numerous Harvard faculty members and top research opportunities. Got the impression they see a huge range of psychopathology from dual diagnosis / SMI / medically complex pts at the VA to the complete opposite end of the spectrum at Mclean where pts tend to be higher socio-economic status. Over 50% rotations in PGY1 and 2 are non-VA with 8+ months at Mclean (up to 3 months of child at Mclean) and C/L at Beth Israel. Seems like residents matched into top fellowships, including at other Harvard programs. I considered ranking this program #1 but ultimately chose to be closer to my family. Not sure why this place gets so much hate on sdn, but it seemed pretty decent to me.

I agree. When I interviewed here, this program checked all the boxes: top-notch training sites, balanced schedule, world-renowned faculty, excellent fellowship matches, and Harvard affiliation. My one negative was the facilities were a bit dated at the VA and having to drive to multiple sites. Also, Dr. Dickey is the Harvard SS PD and she is probably the most overwhelmingly pro-resident PD I have ever met. She published countless articles on their specialized track to encourage resident-driven changes. I got the impression that nothing was impossible at this program, and I think she might be the only one that not only talks the talk, but walks the walk about this. If a resident wants something done badly enough & can find a way to implement that change, they will do it. The negative reviews of HSS were definitely yesteryear and are a reflection of the ego problems associated with their Haahvard name

 

[tellme_areyoufree]

I agree. When I interviewed here, this program checked all the boxes: top-notch training sites, balanced schedule, world-renowned faculty, excellent fellowship matches, and Harvard affiliation. My one negative was the facilities were a bit dated at the VA and having to drive to multiple sites. Also, Dr. Dickey is the Harvard SS PD and she is probably the most overwhelmingly pro-resident PD I have ever met. She published countless articles on their specialized track to encourage resident-driven changes. I got the impression that nothing was impossible at this program, and I think she might be the only one that not only talks the talk, but walks the walk about this. If a resident wants something done badly enough & can find a way to implement that change, they will do it. The negative reviews of HSS were definitely yesteryear and are a reflection of the ego problems associated with their Haahvard name

I was really impressed with Dr. Dickey. She reminded me of Joan Anzia at Northwestern, both struck me as really genuinely invested in resident success in a way that made me excited when thinking about being at their programs. Because of this HSS will be in my top 3 (no idea about order of that top3 yet, thinking about ordering the rank list feels overwhelming). Like I said in a comment above, I dunno about reputation but I really like my interview day at HSS... if the original poster didn't walk away with that feeling, maybe that should matter more than reputation or prestige or whatever.

 

[splik]

I’ve noticed that most residents dislike their VA training (n=30ish, 12 different programs east to west coast) Anyone have insight as to why? I honestly have the impression that most people going into psych/psych residents don’t like veterans. Although whenever I ask why they don’t like the VA they say they love the patients

I don’t have the impression that it’s the quality of the training there.

the key to anything is balance. it probably isn't ideal to do all your training at the VA, and is a missed opportunity to have no VA exposure at all. Personally I loved doing VA rotations for the most part as a resident and there are some perks. for example no prior auths (though there are formulary requests), you have access to most all of their prior records, it's easier to coordinate care, you can discharge people with outpatient follow up, they often have good addiction services, specialist clinics, access to neuropsych testing, and some VAs even offer TMS, ketamine etc. Depending on the VA, they often have specialized programs in TBI, addictions, dementia, PTSD, psychosis etc. There is some pretty interesting research work funded through the VA too. The VA has been responsible for much of the residency program expansion in psychiatry, and many C/L, geriatrics, and addictions fellowships are VA funded. it's a good setting to do training in PE, CPT, group therapy, and couples therapy.

Things people don't like are:
1. the bureaucracy and inefficiency and how long it takes for anything to happen.
2. some of the staff are lazy/incompetent and will be there for ever doing as little as possible.
3. the food in the cafeteria is usually not very good.
4. the patient population typically lacks diversity and gets kind of boring.
5. its not a great setting for psychodynamic psychotherapy training.
6. not ideal if you're main interest in women (though there are often women's programs)
7. they have to pander to political whims and bad press, much of it unwarranted
8. CPRS (some people love it and they're transitioning to Cerner at some point anyway)
9. the compensation & pension system. many people are seeking benefits, not treatment, and have no interest in getting better.
10. some of the veterans can be scary and they often don't do a good job of limit setting

 

[erg923]

I’ve noticed that most residents dislike their VA training (n=30ish, 12 different programs east to west coast) Anyone have insight as to why? I honestly have the impression that most people going into psych/psych residents don’t like veterans. Although whenever I ask why they don’t like the VA they say they love the patients

No sure what this about? I would be hard pressed to say people inherently dont "like" veterans. They have taken a job that most of us simply have little interest in, have little tolerance for the sacrifices involved, and the importance of which is oblivious to many of us in the modern civilian world. Most people, I think, "respect" this by default, and even as relatively pacifist Catholic, I always felt respect for the job and the the motivations (generally) behind it.

The monotony of presenting concerns/symptoms can be an issue for people (such as myself unless you are dealing with SMI, which of course there is less of compared to CMH and community and state hospital systems.

There are some things the VA healthcare system does just plain poorly and/or more complicated than they need to be though. And there are indeed barriers to care for patients. There is also too much care (infantilizing) at times, as well as ill conceived entitlement programs for some patients (e.g., "the caregiver program"...which in reality is NOT what it sounds like). There is also the taint of it being/becoming an unnecessary/wasteful welfare entity for anyone who completed boot-camp or who think their military experience is responsible for every ill of their current life.

 

[SmallBird]

No sure what this about? I would be hard pressed to say people inherently dont "like" veterans. They have taken a job that most of us simply have little interest in, have little tolerance for the sacrifices involved, and the importance of which is oblivious to many of us in the modern civilian world. Most people, I think, "respect" this by default, and even as relatively pacifist Catholic, I always felt respect for the job and the the motivations (generally) behind it.

The monotony of presenting concerns/symptoms can be an issue for people (such as myself unless you are dealing with SMI, which of course there is less of compared to CMH and community and state hospital systems.

There are some things the VA healthcare system does just plain poorly and/or more complicated than they need to be though. And there are indeed barriers to care for patients. There is also too much care (infantilizing) at times, as well as ill conceived entitlement programs for some patients (e.g., "the caregiver program"...which in reality is NOT what it sounds like). There is also the taint of it being/becoming an unnecessary/wasteful welfare entity for anyone who completed boot-camp or who think their military experience is responsible for every ill of their current life.

Just completing boot camp does not entitle you to VA benefits- I know you probably knew that but to be clear for anyone reading the post. The vast majority of VA patients will have been active for at least four years or reserves for at least eight years.

 

[erg923]

Just completing boot camp does not entitle you to VA benefits- I know you probably knew that but to be clear for anyone reading the post. The vast majority of VA patients will have been active for at least four years or reserves for at least eight years.

If you get injured and then service connected it does.

 

[SmallBird]

If you get injured and then service connected it does.

Yes, but your sentence literally said ‘anyone who completed bootcamp’ and I’m just trying to point out that isn’t the case.

 

[Bash Kashp]

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[TexasPhysician]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I am down to these as my top 4 (in no particular order): Baylor in Houston, Emory in Atlanta, UTSW in Dallas, and Harvard South Shore in Brockton. I know everyone is different and I should go with my gut - but if you guys were in my shoes, how would you rank those 4 programs?

1. UTSW - excellent diversity and faculty

2. Emory - great faculty and training but high volume

3. HSS - improving program with Harvard name

4. Baylor

 

[Monocles]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I am down to these as my top 4 (in no particular order): Baylor in Houston, Emory in Atlanta, UTSW in Dallas, and Harvard South Shore in Brockton. I know everyone is different and I should go with my gut - but if you guys were in my shoes, how would you rank those 4 programs?

I don't know anything about Baylor, Emory, or UTSW, but I imagine you can't go wrong with any of these 3. Do some research about these and rank them 1-3 in any order.

 

[MrWonderful]

Yeah seriously, you can't go wrong. All are excellent programs that will open doors for you in every way possible. I would go with your gut and try to remember how you felt on interview day.

 

[Doc1401]

I don't know anything about Baylor, Emory, or UTSW, but I imagine you can't go wrong with any of these 3. Do some research about these and rank them 1-3 in any order.

Put Emory first. Top rock solid psychiatry program, very prestigious in the medical world and in brain health. All fellowships are accessible, and run by renowned faculty. CDC next door. Chairman is in charge of FOCUS Psychiatry review. Faculty and trainees are editors in psychiatry journals. Many “zebra” cases. I know people who chose Emory over Yale, Columbia, JHU for those reasons and due to strong faculty investment into their trainees.