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Thoughts: what is a major problem facing osteopathic medicine ?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical Osteopathic [ DO ]' started by AKMCAT, 09.24.14.

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  1. AKMCAT

    AKMCAT

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    Thoughts: what is a major problem facing osteopathic medicine today ?
     
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  3. pezzoil

    pezzoil

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  4. user3

    user3 SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor 5+ Year Member

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    perceptions of our training as inferior or questionable (ie, DO bias)
     
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  5. AlteredScale

    AlteredScale Staff Member SDN Moderator 2+ Year Member

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    Representation. But that is swiftly changing.

    Perhaps also the evidence behind the efficacy of osteopathic manipulative therapy in terms of representation in high impact journals.
     
  6. costales

    costales 2+ Year Member

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    Too many applicants.
     
  7. Awesome Sauceome

    Awesome Sauceome SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor 2+ Year Member

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    I hear (from the Osteo thread) that Cranial is no good.
     
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  8. VanEman

    VanEman

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    I think the biggest problem that osteopathic medicine is facing is that insurance companies and our government have a system that pays for procedures rather than care, and drug companies market to give you a pill that will fix your problem. To the extent that osteopathic medicine is focused on prevention, it is really at odds with how "the system" works in America.
     
  9. Awesome Sauceome

    Awesome Sauceome SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor 2+ Year Member

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    I agree with your first part. But I actually see your last point as being a bonus to osteopathic medicine, it actually is a little niche for DOs to fill...
     
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  10. PhoenixFire

    PhoenixFire 5+ Year Member

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    Degree is not recognized internationally.
     
  11. dcguthrie7

    dcguthrie7

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    I see where you're coming from on that, but in terms of making a living it's difficult to fill this niche when you have loans and bills to pay.

    I think a big problem is the misunderstanding that a DO is inferior to an MD, and there is a lack of research and publications on OMT. With more information and research more people would potentially accept OMT.
     
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  12. VanEman

    VanEman

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    Ah, yes, every problem is an opportunity in disguise.
     
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  13. Awesome Sauceome

    Awesome Sauceome SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor 2+ Year Member

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    Or even discredit parts of it that are not accurate. I think that would even help as well... nothing wrong about having two nearly identical paths to become a doctor.

    I have never heard of DDS and DMD students having any trouble finding jobs even though they come from "different" training.
     
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  14. DopaDO

    DopaDO 5+ Year Member

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    Love when people make stuff up.

    Minimal difference in international recognition between MD and DO degrees. Also being a part of an organization like doctors without borders gives you practice rights of the organization (for the few countries that recognize MD but not DO)
     
  15. karling

    karling 2+ Year Member

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  16. cliquesh

    cliquesh 7+ Year Member

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    Too many schools. I think the profession was pretty solid at 3500 graduates per year.
     
  17. MajorUnderDog

    MajorUnderDog 2+ Year Member

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    to add onto that, not enough residency spots...but we'll see what happens with the merger
     
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  18. Plecopotamus

    Plecopotamus 2+ Year Member

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    The bar has been set too low for new DO schools.
     
  19. AKMCAT

    AKMCAT

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    I'm confused about the merge for residency programs, so ultimately MDs will have a chance to apply and have a greater chance to get a sub specialty since more MDS will be applying and potentially taking the spots that were previously only for DOs. Can anyone clarify ?
     
  20. IslandStyle808

    IslandStyle808 Akuma residency or bust! 2+ Year Member

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    even less spots than before...
     
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  21. AKMCAT

    AKMCAT

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    So I'm not sure how DOs would benefit from the merger ? Wouldn't it make it more competitive to get residency spots considering you the larger pool of MD and Do applicants ?
     
  22. IslandStyle808

    IslandStyle808 Akuma residency or bust! 2+ Year Member

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    With the merger, any MD can apply to a DO residency and fellowship. And yes to the bold.
     
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  23. IslandStyle808

    IslandStyle808 Akuma residency or bust! 2+ Year Member

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    Your questions hit on major points of matching during the merger. The benefits won't quite be seen matching wise, but will definitely be seen post-match. 1) Now DOs that are in AOA residencies can apply to ACGME fellowships. 2) Now that the AOA residencies will become ACGME accredited also, physicians graduating from AOA residencies won't have hospitals questioning the quality of their residencies as much as the past, during the job hunt.

    EDIT: There is still the benefit of the joint match for those applying to residencies, but that is yet to be seen.
     
    Last edited: 09.26.14
  24. Lawgiver

    Lawgiver Banned Banned Account on Hold

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    too many trying too hard to educate others about DO. Let them think DO is just a naturopath or whatever else these kiddies believe, less competition for me. I like the fact DO schools on average have lower entrance reqs and I like the schooling is different than MDs. So lets stop trying to make DO like MD in every way imaginable.
     
  25. GUH

    GUH Underdawg 5+ Year Member

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    It's the very obvious fact that no DO who supports the merger wants to talk about.
     
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  26. AlbinoHawk DO

    AlbinoHawk DO Student Osteopath 2+ Year Member

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    Are you guys serious? Neither of these are a problem. We have plenty of international rights, and the number of applicants is the problem of admissions offices, which I don't think they mind because it generates money.
     
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  27. MajorUnderDog

    MajorUnderDog 2+ Year Member

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    I've read from Goro that DOs should benefit from the merger more so than what it seems right now....I can't remember Goro's reasoning though
     
  28. Mad Jack

    Mad Jack Critically Caring Gold Donor 2+ Year Member

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    There are only a handful of countries internationally that allow US MDs to practice but not DOs. International practice is a really hard thing to make happen because of protectionist regimes in other countries (just like the one we have in ours).
     
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  29. Mad Jack

    Mad Jack Critically Caring Gold Donor 2+ Year Member

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    The higher the perception of DOs, the greater the number of doors that will be opened for DO graduates. Don't be so shortsighted.
     
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  30. IslandStyle808

    IslandStyle808 Akuma residency or bust! 2+ Year Member

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    Come to think of it, it may have been an answer to my question a while back (well then again there were many other who posed the same question LOL). His reasoning, if I remember correctly, was that it forces the MD residencies to recognize DOs. This would show with increased interviews at places where DOs rarely receive an interview. I could see this happening if this were a joint match. Mainly because it will push DOs to apply to places where they would be afraid to apply before, for the fear of not matching. This is because they can use former AOA residencies as a safety net if things go south. I'm not saying that they are going to put those AOA residencies at the end of their list, but have a mixture of reach schools on the ACGME side and ones they like formerly on the AOA side. Other than that, I am uncertain there is any reassuring proof that ACGME PDs will treat DOs differently after the merger.
     
    Last edited: 09.25.14
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  31. puppylatte

    puppylatte

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    You cannot practice in Ireland with a DO degree. It's not accepted as a Primary Medical Qualification.
     
  32. radkat101

    radkat101 2+ Year Member

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    The biggest problem I see, is that the difference between MD and DO is so small now, that it has become difficult/awkward to describe the difference between them. It's really strange to me that a couple hours of OMM lab every week and a few competencies over skills most of us aren't really proficient in, and will never use in practice is still used as justification for having two different degrees. We put in this work on TOP of learning everything else MD students learn only to be discriminated against by residency programs when we graduate. Sure, it's a little easier to get into these schools right now but that's ONLY because of the letters "DO" and the stigma associated with it. How much longer can this go on?
     
  33. AlbinoHawk DO

    AlbinoHawk DO Student Osteopath 2+ Year Member

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    That is totally a major problem then. :rolleyes:
     
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  34. Lawgiver

    Lawgiver Banned Banned Account on Hold

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    yeah DO not worth it now that we know this, all DO med students should drop out and go PA. At least then they wont dare to ever dream of Ireland medicine.
     
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  35. puppylatte

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    As an Irish person, yeah this matters. Maybe not to you which is fine. I wrote it for the benefit of those who may care. No need to get snarky.
     
  36. Mad Jack

    Mad Jack Critically Caring Gold Donor 2+ Year Member

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    That's one particular country. There are a few countries in Europe that don't accept the DO degree, but there are plenty of them that do. It's virtually impossible to become licensed as a US MD in Japan, does that mean the degree has no international utility? Hell no.
     
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  37. nontrad78

    nontrad78 2+ Year Member

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    Wonder if as DO schools become more competitive, the number of students that elect to do rural and primary care will dwindle...

    (this should not be construed as a knock against those choosing to enter family medicine, IM, etc)
     
  38. puppylatte

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    Who said that it has no international utility? I didn't. I made one comment about a particular country.. One particular country doesn't sound like a big deal unless you happen to be from there. It's in Western Europe and a good number of Americans hail from there so... I'm sure it's relevant to some of us.
     
  39. costales

    costales 2+ Year Member

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    Speaking of the Medical Council of Ireland:

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-is-struck-off-medical-register-30610221.html

    Dr Ndaga gained her medical qualifications in Romania in 2008 and subsequently relocated to Ireland, where she was placed on the Register of the Medical Council of Ireland in 2009.

    But concerned doctors decided it was necessary to formally assess her competence. During the assessment Dr Ndaga was asked to take a patient's pulse. She then incorrectly placed her fingers on the top of the patient's wrist instead of the underside.

    She was then asked to show the consultant how to take a pulse from the patient's foot and once again put her fingers in the wrong place. Dr Ndaga was also unable to gauge how much oxygen the patient was on. After being sacked it later emerged she did not get enough points in a multiple-choice entrance exam for acceptance to a training post in one of Romania's hospitals.

    She also had no experience in caring for patients.​
     
  40. Strudel19

    Strudel19 5+ Year Member

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    The merger.
     
  41. DrEnderW

    DrEnderW 2+ Year Member

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    The fact that DOs won't be barred from all ACGME fellowships and now all residency training will have the same standards sounds like a real tragedy to me. An eventual joint match where DOs rank all program sounds just awful.
     
  42. puppylatte

    puppylatte

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    Yeah, and I can also quote you a story about an Africa-trained physician in Ireland who read x-rays upside down before ultimately losing his license. But that doesn't address the OP or the probem that any DO student who might want to practice there would have to gain some kind of precedent setting exemption from the Medical Council. It's stupid, but it's currently a fact.

    Also the Romanian example is unfortunate because EU grads are favoured even if a US DO could beat some Eastern European doctors on every competency.
     
  43. GUH

    GUH Underdawg 5+ Year Member

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    This has not been confirmed. Whereas the fact that all current DO residencies will be forced to take applications from MDs is absolutely confirmed.
     
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  44. AlbinoHawk DO

    AlbinoHawk DO Student Osteopath 2+ Year Member

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    It may be a major problem facing you, but the thread isn't about you.
     
  45. Awesome Sauceome

    Awesome Sauceome SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor 2+ Year Member

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    They will take the applications - as required. But there is no indication that AOA PDs plan on ranking MD students heavily (just as the ACGME PDs currently go against DO students). Hopefully though, the door will at least be open for more communication and openness in the application process, which hopefully over time will result in a "true" merging of the professions.

    Obviously you cannot force the ACGME residencies to take DOs, but on the flip side you cant force the AOA residencies to take MDs. I think there will be just as much bias for their own people, on both sides of the fence..

    However... again... I think the positive is that the door will be open. The opportunity will finally be there. I agree that it wont necessarily make anything more positive for DOs.. BUT I think that is true only for the beginning of the process... I think in the long run though that it will be positive, I think it is major step to integration of the two fields into the same level of training. The only way that MDs and DOs will truly be equal is by leveling the field between them. This was a major step in leveling the field. Now only the culture of people in medicine and individual programs can physically change how DOs fare in the future - but again at least the opportunity of change is here.

    Its almost like the official "merger" will not necessarily be the "official" part. Sure the rules are changing but until PDs change their attitudes, then absolutely the bias against DOs will continue to exist. It will not be until the "unofficial" merger occurs (i.e. change in the culture and thought process of residency PDs) will the bias officially be gone. But at least the "official" merger moves us one step closer to the cultural change that WILL eventually occur.
     
    Last edited: 09.26.14
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  46. DrEnderW

    DrEnderW 2+ Year Member

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    I completely agree, that's why I said "eventual."

    I was told by the AOA president, in person, that he and the AOA support a joint match. I know it's not in the cards now and may not affect any of us here, but I think it's safe to say it will be adopted years down the road.
     
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  47. Awesome Sauceome

    Awesome Sauceome SDN Gold Donor Gold Donor 2+ Year Member

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    Exactly! the keyword is "eventual." The bias against DO will not disappear over night. But the merger supports the idea of "the long game." Whereby the changes will be subtle and only over enough time. But by closing any option of the merger you basically solidify the fact that they will never be equal and they will never work together on this process.
     
  48. Mad Jack

    Mad Jack Critically Caring Gold Donor 2+ Year Member

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    I was assuming your quote was in response to this:
    So I was clarifying that it is recognized internationally, just not in Ireland. I just connected two dots that weren't related, I apologize. You can always try and fight for recognition though- that's how we get recognized in other countries. It's taken time, but we add a country every other year or so to the list.
     
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  49. HoboCommander

    HoboCommander 7+ Year Member

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    There's no need to fight for DO practice rights in Ireland. After the merger, DO should be changed to MD to avoid confusion. There's no point in having a different degree that is equivalent. Then after changing to MD title, you can practice in Ireland.
     
  50. AlbinoHawk DO

    AlbinoHawk DO Student Osteopath 2+ Year Member

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    I seriously doubt it. There's money at play with all the new schools and the easier regulations to build a DO school. I think at the end of the day it'll just be DMD/DDS in the medical world. The only way I see a change happening is when we reach the limits of residency because then it'll be about making schools stronger, and before that happens, I can see the 2 tier system where all US MD/DO must match first before any spots go to IMG/FMG.
     
  51. puppylatte

    puppylatte

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    I'll reiterate -- I contributed on-topic specific knowledge about international practice rights for the thread. You chose to respond by rolling your eyes and implying that it wasn't a big deal. You went out of your way to do that. This thread is supposed to be a compilation of issues facing DOs. I contribute one sentence and you jump all over it just to make a snarky remark. I ask you to stop being snarky and you reply with "it's not about you?" Real mature. But to get back on topic I disagreed with your implication that it's not a big deal and will further clarify there are 25 million people in the USA that have a claim to Irish citizenship and many thousands of those are first generation with immediate family ties to the region so this is relevant to American DOs. I don't go around thinking I'm the only one and that is why I came to this thread to say that you cannot practice in Ireland as DO.
     
    Last edited: 09.26.14

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