Apr 4, 2010
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By the end of dental school, I will have $350K+ in student loans to pay back.

Here are the loans I will have to take in my dental career:
1. $350K loan for dental school
2. $___K loan for house, buying a car, family etc
3. $___K loan for opening own practice

How do most people do it? Find a job in someone else's clinic and pay off the student loans? Assuming I find a job in someone else's clinic straight out of dental school, how much will I be making? How long will it take to pay back $350K?

How much do people take out for starting their own practice? How long will that take to pay back?

I'm sure everyone has considered this before, so if you already have an excel worksheet, it would be great to share it. Otherwise, please share your insight.

==> EDIT: I will be attending UPenn Dental Medicine. People were wondering, so I thought I should give everyone a full picture to help me out.
 
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Apr 3, 2010
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By the end of dental school, I will have $350K+ in student loans to pay back.

Here are the loans I will have to take in my dental career:
1. $350K loan for dental school
2. $___K loan for house, buying a car, family etc
3. $___K loan for opening own practice

How do most people do it? Find a job in someone else's clinic and pay off the student loans? Assuming I find a job in someone else's clinic straight out of dental school, how much will I be making? How long will it take to pay back $350K?

How much do people take out for starting their own practice? How long will that take to pay back?

I'm sure everyone has considered this before, so if you already have an excel worksheet, it would be great to share it. Otherwise, please share your insight.
350k in loans?!?!

wow, where will you be attending? i was under the impression the MAX you can borrow anyway is 240K
 

DrDDSman

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350k in loans?!?!

wow, where will you be attending? i was under the impression the MAX you can borrow anyway is 240K

When you factor in the cost of living and state residency (if applicable) its a fair estimate. For example attending NYU, USC, Pacific, Columbia, Penn, Indiana (OOS) will cost about OPs number, give or take. And it is possible to borrow more than that, depending on your school.

And to the OP, I think the key is to be wise with your finances and not jump in too deep with buying an expensive home, practice, nice cars, etc all at once. Otherwise you'll probably find your self in some difficult situations. Take it slowly
 
Apr 3, 2010
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When you factor in the cost of living and state residency (if applicable) its a fair estimate. For example attending NYU, USC, Pacific, Columbia, Penn, Indiana (OOS) will cost about OPs number, give or take. And it is possible to borrow more than that, depending on your school.
fair enough...

i know for pharmacy school right now, im going to borrow a total of 90k, plus i have ~35k from undergrad

:(

hopefully i wont need to borrow too much for dental though... since when i do work part time, it will be as a pharmacist
 
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@ pharmddds: I will be attending UPenn Dental Medicine.
Also, pure curiousity (as opposed to SDN bashing, lol), what made you switch from pharm to dents?

@ DrDDSman: How will you handle the repaying of loans?
 
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@ pharmddds: I will be attending UPenn Dental Medicine.
Also, pure curiousity (as opposed to SDN bashing, lol), what made you switch from pharm to dents?

@ DrDDSman: How will you handle the repaying of loans?
i love both :D
 

DrDDSman

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@ pharmddds: I will be attending UPenn Dental Medicine.
Also, pure curiousity (as opposed to SDN bashing, lol), what made you switch from pharm to dents?

@ DrDDSman: How will you handle the repaying of loans?

Not quite sure yet...from what I have heard, it can be tough as a new dentist making large payments (since many times pay is dependent on production which is dependent on speed). I think my plan would be to pay down as much as I can in a short time frame, to avoid paying a ton of interest. I dont know what my situation will be 4-10 years from now so it is all speculation, but these are things many new dentists go through. You might get some better input if you post this on the dental forum.
 

hausee

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new dents here in CA earn 50k first year, then under 100k in the first few year if he/she doesn't own a business.
 

BiomajorPreDent

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By the end of dental school, I will have $350K+ in student loans to pay back.

Here are the loans I will have to take in my dental career:
1. $350K loan for dental school
2. $___K loan for house, buying a car, family etc
3. $___K loan for opening own practice

How do most people do it? Find a job in someone else's clinic and pay off the student loans? Assuming I find a job in someone else's clinic straight out of dental school, how much will I be making? How long will it take to pay back $350K?

How much do people take out for starting their own practice? How long will that take to pay back?

I'm sure everyone has considered this before, so if you already have an excel worksheet, it would be great to share it. Otherwise, please share your insight.

==> EDIT: I will be attending UPenn Dental Medicine. People were wondering, so I thought I should give everyone a full picture to help me out.
First, you set your loan repayments to the 30 year fixed rate plan, that way you can get on your feet with as low payments as possible. Don't worry, there will be plenty of time to send the government a larger check each month to pay down the principal once you are established.

Get a job as an associate and build up your speed. The average associate compensation is about $120k-ish (according to the last ADA surveys)

Find a practice that you want to buy into, or start working as an associate in a practice you'd like to buy into as either a partner or complete ownership.

Alot of banks offer 0 down financing with working capital for dentists and physicians. How much depends on the practice you purchase. The payments for the practice would be figured as an expense to the practice (ie: it is just another thing on your monthly office overhead, unless there are tax advantages to declaring it on your personal income that I am not aware of)

Then you save up your money and you will be able to put a down payment on a house.

Don't forget, once your speed is built up and you own your own practice your income will probably go up (average GP owner makes $200k)

Don't buy an expensive car or have a kid for the first 2-3 years out of school.

If you get married, hopefully your wife has a job too

Don't worry, thousands of dentists do this every year.

edit: $350,000 with maxed out subsidized loans and the rest on the PLUS loan gives you about $2,500 a month in repayments

https://loanconsolidation.ed.gov/loancalc/servlet/common.mvc.Controller?controller_task=startCalculator
 
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Dec 5, 2009
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^^^Agree with biomajorPredent.

And don't forget: there are loan repayment programs if you work in an underserved area. There is HRSA and, at least in my state, there is state money set aside that you can apply for. You qualify for both if you work in an "underserved" community. Where I live, I was surprised at what that meant... 1 hour thata way.

Think of your education as a mortgage. People pay off debts like that all the time. And just because your loan terms are for 30 years, you can pay it off before then. If you are single, you might want to pay it off in 4-5 years so that you can start thinking about a practice of your own or your own house. If you have kids and a mortgage, you'll have to stretch it out because you will have other debts and loans in which your monthly income will have to be stretched.
 

dentalWorks

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new dents here in CA earn 50k first year, then under 100k in the first few year if he/she doesn't own a business.
this doesn't make any sense :confused:
 

DrDDSman

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Most dental schools out of state tuition + living expenses are estimated at almost 85k/year. 85,000 * 4 = 340,000

This is of course for out of state. In state is lower.

Yeah cost of attendance for these schools is between 85-105/year.
 

supraeli

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new dents here in CA earn 50k first year, then under 100k in the first few year if he/she doesn't own a business.
id say 75-80K starting is more realistic, depending on where in the huge state of CA you are trying to make it at. LA/SF salaries are going to closer to 50K, anywhere rural will probably make closer to 100K.

people in CA often think that we can make alot of money, being in a relatively prosperous and popular state, but it is one of the most over saturated dental markets in the world.

even the cheapest schools in the UC system are 65K/yr with living expenses = 260K after 4 years. so us californians basically have no in-state school option. if you look at USC, tuition ALONE is 80K/yr factoring a minimal 20K/yr for living expenses = 400K after 4 years.

for OP, just be ready to be in debt for around 30 years. with the salary that you make, you will definitely be able to pay it all off as long as you dont splurge or make bad financial choices, but don't expect to live an extravagant life.
 
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BiomajorPreDent

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If it is really as bad as everyone is saying in Cali, I would suggest not moving back there to practice.

80k is unacceptable with that amount of debt.
 

Oracle DMD

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new dents here in CA earn 50k first year, then under 100k in the first few year if he/she doesn't own a business.
this is just hot garbage. i know quite a few dentists in san diego, and nobody i have ever even heard of, has taken a job for 50k, and i have only heard stories from guys that have heard of people making under 100k.
 
Jan 13, 2010
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this is just hot garbage. i know quite a few dentists in san diego, and nobody i have ever even heard of, has taken a job for 50k, and i have only heard stories from guys that have heard of people making under 100k.
:thumbup:. Even the LA county sheriff starts dentists at 85K, and if the mean starting salary was around 50K I am sure they would adjust to reflect that.
 

hausee

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this is just hot garbage. i know quite a few dentists in san diego, and nobody i have ever even heard of, has taken a job for 50k, and i have only heard stories from guys that have heard of people making under 100k.
that is what I got from a new graduate working as a associate in a practice.
 
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that is what I got from a new graduate working as a associate in a practice.
50K? why even bother living in california. how can one even afford a 250K+ education on a 50K salary? why would one even take that little after investing so much?
 

Oracle DMD

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that is what I got from a new graduate working as a associate in a practice.
he might be taking home 50k after taxes and loans or something, but he isn't pulling in 50k as a salary unless he is on 20% collections and he is working at the speed of smell.
 

THINKOFMYFUTURE

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he might be taking home 50k after taxes and loans or something, but he isn't pulling in 50k as a salary unless he is on 20% collections and he is working at the speed of smell.
I agree with you too Oracle DMD. However, never underestimate the speed of
smell. :nono:
 

imtwotired

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Fear of debt is not a good quality in a dentist! Debt MANAGEMENT is key and it all goes to planning and cash flow. Start putting away 20% of whatever you make (between retirement and emergency fund), pay your taxes, and set your living expense budget from what is left. Take the full 30 years to pay your loans. 6 or 8.5% fixed interest is excellent! Fixed rate mortgages were in the 20s in the 1970s! Student loans are good debt. Maintain a conservative standard of living, keep good credit, and forget about those lines on your statement that give your outstanding debt and interest paid. The interest is tax deductible anyway, so you can almost cut that number in half, depending on where you live. Do not panic. A dental education is an excellent investment. Don't be cash poor because you're too afraid to carry debt.
 

Oracle DMD

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Fear of debt is not a good quality in a dentist! Debt MANAGEMENT is key and it all goes to planning and cash flow. Start putting away 20% of whatever you make (between retirement and emergency fund), pay your taxes, and set your living expense budget from what is left. Take the full 30 years to pay your loans. 6 or 8.5% fixed interest is excellent! Fixed rate mortgages were in the 20s in the 1970s! Student loans are good debt. Maintain a conservative standard of living, keep good credit, and forget about those lines on your statement that give your outstanding debt and interest paid. The interest is tax deductible anyway, so you can almost cut that number in half, depending on where you live. Do not panic. A dental education is an excellent investment. Don't be cash poor because you're too afraid to carry debt.


why? because the difference in 10 years vs 30 years of repayment (w/ +300000 in loans) is maybe 1000/mo vs hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of extra interest! there are 2 types of people, people paying interest and people collecting interest. the sooner i'm done being the former, i can be the latter.
 
May 21, 2009
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why? because the difference in 10 years vs 30 years of repayment (w/ +300000 in loans) is maybe 1000/mo vs hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of extra interest! there are 2 types of people, people paying interest and people collecting interest. the sooner i'm done being the former, i can be the latter.
oracle, that kind of thinking is very erroneous. you should be doing both simultaneously. granted 6.5% is quite high, you can consolidate your loans to a lower rate. So if you were to consolidate at 5%, which is relatively low, you should be paying off over 30 yrs, given that you can invest your money at a higher rate than 5% elsewhere (S&P historical rate is about 10-11% a year). if you work out the numbers on that, you will end up significantly ahead financially than if you tried to pay your loan off in 10 yrs. its called the time value of money!
 

imtwotired

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invest that money you'd use to pay off your loan! If you were tracking the S&P 500 over the last year you'd be earning 43.5%; 52.3% if tracking the NASDAQ! Compare that to saving a weighted average of perhaps 8% (and that's ignoring the tax benefits of a high income-high debt professional). Paying interest and earning interest aren't mutually exclusive!

http://www.dentaleconomics.com/display_article/371182/54/none/none/Colum/Out-of-debt,-again!

I especially love the last paragraph, "To maximize wealth creation, a dentist must view debt elimination as a hindrance to wealth creation, not as the defining factor of financial freedom. After all, the definition of being broke is having no savings and no debt."
 

Oracle DMD

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oracle, that kind of thinking is very erroneous. you should be doing both simultaneously. granted 6.5% is quite high, you can consolidate your loans to a lower rate. So if you were to consolidate at 5%, which is relatively low, you should be paying off over 30 yrs, given that you can invest your money at a higher rate than 5% elsewhere (S&P historical rate is about 10-11% a year). if you work out the numbers on that, you will end up significantly ahead financially than if you tried to pay your loan off in 10 yrs. its called the time value of money!
i get what people say about doing both, i do. i have a wife that works, so i can afford to put more effort into tearing down debt. the days of 10-11% returns are questionable. people that lived that way got caught w/ their pants down in 2007. i will squirrel away some funds, but for the first 5 years out of school i'm going the road of debt reduction.
 

SeattleRDH

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My 2 cents on student loan interest:

If you make over a certain amount ($75,000 or so) you aren't eligible to deduct your student loan interest payments. Also, the annual max you could deduct would only be $2500. With the large monthly payments from 350,000K debt, don't expect to get much of a tax benefit (if any).

Trust me, I learned this the hard way. It might be different if you're a home owner though.
 

Oracle DMD

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invest that money you'd use to pay off your loan! If you were tracking the S&P 500 over the last year you'd be earning 43.5%; 52.3% if tracking the NASDAQ! Compare that to saving a weighted average of perhaps 8% (and that's ignoring the tax benefits of a high income-high debt professional). Paying interest and earning interest aren't mutually exclusive!

http://www.dentaleconomics.com/display_article/371182/54/none/none/Colum/Out-of-debt,-again!

I especially love the last paragraph, "To maximize wealth creation, a dentist must view debt elimination as a hindrance to wealth creation, not as the defining factor of financial freedom. After all, the definition of being broke is having no savings and no debt."

i love the example of 400k debt for a dentist in this article. that is the debt you will be GRADUATING with if you attend the pricest dental schools. then lecture these new grads on hw to save 20% for retirement? good luck. i want to pay off my house and my student loan as quickly as is reasonably possible. i'm not an investing guru (i like it, i will do it) but my core principle is the tried and true method of paying debt off. good credit is great! but not needing credit...priceless.
 

Oracle DMD

Chuck NOracle DMD
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My 2 cents on student loan interest:

If you make over a certain amount ($75,000 or so) you aren't eligible to deduct your student loan interest payments. Also, the annual max you could deduct would only be $2500. With the large monthly payments from 350,000K debt, don't expect to get much of a tax benefit (if any).

Trust me, I learned this the hard way. It might be different if you're a home owner though.
right. if you own a home, you might be able to use some equity in your home to pay a student loan so you can write off the interest then, but i dont know a lot of people who have that kind of equity in their home anymore ya know.
 

imtwotired

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I can certainly appreciate a more humble attitude toward investing, but I hesitate to let the doom and gloom sour my long-term philosophy too much. An article written in November 2008--long before the 50% recovery--shows that the average 25-year annualized return was 9.61%. If you look at the table, you'll see that 25-year average annualized returns over the last 50 years are over 10% more often than not. I wonder what the data would look like now. However, I know we both can agree that as long as we live within our means, dentistry is a great way to secure a financial future, no matter which path we take.

http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewarticle/articleid/2803347
 

Oracle DMD

Chuck NOracle DMD
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I can certainly appreciate a more humble attitude toward investing, but I hesitate to let the doom and gloom sour my long-term philosophy too much. An article written in November 2008--long before the 50% recovery--shows that the average 25-year annualized return was 9.61%. If you look at the table, you'll see that 25-year average annualized returns over the last 50 years are over 10% more often than not. I wonder what the data would look like now. However, I know we both can agree that as long as we live within our means, dentistry is a great way to secure a financial future, no matter which path we take.

http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewarticle/articleid/2803347
word. dentistry will provide you with a comfortable life regardless.
 

Oracle DMD

Chuck NOracle DMD
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where do the post the salaries

for example, what websites do recent graduates visit to find jobs?
outside of obvious places to look, (monster, craigslist, and local dental orgs) companies like mercer, a transitions and investing company, have placement programs that can assist you in finding a good match in the place that you want to practice.