Time's article about DOs

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Yeah yeah yeah

Lets see if you can get into medical school before you start getting TOO mouthy!

:D
Yeah, once I have an MD acceptance in hand (or after I matriculate at a DO school if I have to resort to that), then the gloves come off. :smuggrin:

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Yeah, once I have an MD acceptance in hand (or after I matriculate at a DO school if I have to resort to that), then the gloves come off. :smuggrin:

DKM, I'm a little surprised to see that you posted some **** like this.
 
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Article on Time Magazine recently. I can not believe that this was not posted on SDN yet. Pretty much calls DOs shams!!!

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1584803,00.html

Are you mad? Drop them an email at [email protected] (include your home address and home phone number if you want to be printed).

The article was written by an MD and his observation about the current state of medicine seems to be dead on. OMM is just a small part of osteopathic medical training. I go to a DO and have never had an OMM treatment. I work with radiologists and have worked with pulmonologists who are DOs. They are not shams by any stretch of the imagination. OMM does have it's critics and detractors, and this author appears to be one.
 
This was by far one of the most misleading thread titles that I've ever come across on SDN. Do you think that lay people that read that article will realize that there was even a single knock on DOs. I sure as hell wouldn't have. It's just a writer trying create a little shock and awe for the public in regards to the atrocities that physicians have to go through in this day and age (sarcasm alert).
 
This was by far one of the most misleading thread titles that I've ever come across on SDN. Do you think that lay people that read that article will realize that there was even a single knock on DOs. I sure as hell wouldn't have. It's just a writer trying create a little shock and awe for the public in regards to the atrocities that physicians have to go through in this day and age (sarcasm alert).

Honestly, I'm just glad he included us.
 
Dr. Strosnider wrote a letter to the editor of Time that is awesome. I'm glad to see we have an AOA president who will stand up for ALL of us. I dont know how to upload the word document that has his letter, so email me at [email protected] and I'll send it on to you.
 
Dr. Strosnider wrote a letter to the editor of Time that is awesome. I'm glad to see we have an AOA president who will stand up for ALL of us. I dont know how to upload the word document that has his letter, so email me at [email protected] and I'll send it on to you.

Or, you could just read post #29 in this thread.
 
Well IMO, I believe that this article and articles like these give Americans, Pre-Meds, Physicians, and anyone else for that matter a false image of osteopathic manipulation and osteopathic medicine in general. Whether you agree with OMM or not, it is not some sort of mystical thrown together witchcraft voodoo the author of this Time article seems to suggest. Also the financial argument of the article maybe 100% correct but that does not negate the fact that OMM is scientifically justifiable. Some may argue that OMM is not 100% effective or scientifically proven. I would completely agree. BUT can every modern or traditional medical practice, procedure, technique, point of view be scientifically validated with solid scientific method or deemed 100% effective? NOPE. But this point is a completely different topic all together.

My point is that as an osteopathic student, and future DO...articles like these really matter. Even if 2 people read it, these articles make a difference. Ripples eventually make waves. Osteopathic manipulation is a major factor differentiating "us from them." Discrediting OMM is discrediting DOs, even if the rest of his article makes sense. Also, IMO, OMM does not just encompass cracking backs, feeling for cranial motion, or using muscle energy etc etc. OMM has many facets like the simple use of palpation that we do not realize we do. Dr. Jadick "Hero, MD" or really "Hero, DO"...the DO guy in the Navy from the Newsweek article makes a great speech about this in an address he gave to the AOA (this speech was online...maybe someone has the link). And also I don't care if 1, 5, 10, 99.9999 percent of practicing DOs use or never use OMM....that's really not the point. When someone discredits OMM and makes light of the use....it shows ignorance toward our field of osteopathic medicine. Whether you chose to be a DO because you couldn't get into MD school or you chose to be a DO b/c you actually wanted to be, or anywhere in between...I think articles like these are important. Even if the author's main objective was finance and not OMM.

So to finish this up, I think anyone involved or interested in osteopathic medicine should look at this Time article and frown upon it. This is no "who cares...so what" article. Our profession should not be discredited nor taken lightly. Ideas like these are some of the reasons preventing many skilled DOs from being evaluated equally for highly competitive residencies. Even if you are a DO who hates OMM or uses it every single day...OMM is one of the major reasons that makes our degree different from MD. Articles like these are what give PDs, attendings, MDs, residents, interns, medical students, pre-meds, the general public, and even some of the current people involved in the osteopathic field the wrong idea. These kinds of articles give people the impression that osteopathic medical schools or osteopathic physicians come from the "minor leagues" or an inferior "conference" of medicine. Much like Boise State for collegiate football. Boise State defeating Oklahoma was no fluke...osteopaths can and do perform just as well as the "top tiered" medical students or physicians. I do not want my profession to be envisioned as the minor leagues of medicine b/c we are not. I just hope that everyone involved in osteopathic medicine would agree with me and maybe one day everyone else will also...
 
Well IMO, I believe that this article and articles like these give Americans, Pre-Meds, Physicians, and anyone else for that matter a false image of osteopathic manipulation and osteopathic medicine in general. Whether you agree with OMM or not, it is not some sort of mystical thrown together witchcraft voodoo the author of this Time article seems to suggest. Also the financial argument of the article maybe 100% correct but that does not negate the fact that OMM is scientifically justifiable. Some may argue that OMM is not 100% effective or scientifically proven. I would completely agree. BUT can every modern or traditional medical practice, procedure, technique, point of view be scientifically validated with solid scientific method or deemed 100% effective? NOPE. But this point is a completely different topic all together.

My point is that as an osteopathic student, and future DO...articles like these really matter. Even if 2 people read it, these articles make a difference. Ripples eventually make waves. Osteopathic manipulation is a major factor differentiating "us from them." Discrediting OMM is discrediting DOs, even if the rest of his article makes sense. Also, IMO, OMM does not just encompass cracking backs, feeling for cranial motion, or using muscle energy etc etc. OMM has many facets like the simple use of palpation that we do not realize we do. Dr. Jadick "Hero, MD" or really "Hero, DO"...the DO guy in the Navy from the Newsweek article makes a great speech about this in an address he gave to the AOA (this speech was online...maybe someone has the link). And also I don't care if 1, 5, 10, 99.9999 percent of practicing DOs use or never use OMM....that's really not the point. When someone discredits OMM and makes light of the use....it shows ignorance toward our field of osteopathic medicine. Whether you chose to be a DO because you couldn't get into MD school or you chose to be a DO b/c you actually wanted to be, or anywhere in between...I think articles like these are important. Even if the author's main objective was finance and not OMM.

So to finish this up, I think anyone involved or interested in osteopathic medicine should look at this Time article and frown upon it. This is no "who cares...so what" article. Our profession should not be discredited nor taken lightly. Ideas like these are some of the reasons preventing many skilled DOs from being evaluated equally for highly competitive residencies. Even if you are a DO who hates OMM or uses it every single day...OMM is one of the major reasons that makes our degree different from MD. Articles like these are what give PDs, attendings, MDs, residents, interns, medical students, pre-meds, the general public, and even some of the current people involved in the osteopathic field the wrong idea. These kinds of articles give people the impression that osteopathic medical schools or osteopathic physicians come from the "minor leagues" or an inferior "conference" of medicine. Much like Boise State for collegiate football. Boise State defeating Oklahoma was no fluke...osteopaths can and do perform just as well as the "top tiered" medical students or physicians. I do not want my profession to be envisioned as the minor leagues of medicine b/c we are not. I just hope that everyone involved in osteopathic medicine would agree with me and maybe one day everyone else will also...
Well....that's about 45 seconds of my life that I will never get back. My advice to you: develop thicker skin.
 
dkm...typical premed response...at least you read it:) or lied about reading it:cool:
 
I did read it....and it was very professionally written for which I must give you due credit. However I think it came across as someone who is easily offended by any slight (real or perceived) against their group and reacted excessively for the given stimulus. But you are entitled to your opinion, just as am I. My opinion is well known on this subject and on how it can be done away with.
 
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Not purely due to the attack on OMT and alternative medicine, but because it's another whiny doctor complaining about how little money he earns.

"Looking ahead [med students] see... less money."
Or perhaps the last sentence sums up the article, in discussing paying physicians for alternative medicine, he writes "[patients] pay them with real money--which seems, alas, to have become the whole idea".

Don't be distracted by window-dressing phrases such as "relieving the suffering of the sick and disabled," the point of this article is that doctors are leaving "real" medicine because of oversight and not getting paid enough, a theme that is all too common today.

I think anyone in the top one percent of wage earners should have their right to bitch about wages revoked.
Try supporting a family on Walmart employee wages, you pompous bastard.
 
This was by far one of the most misleading thread titles that I've ever come across on SDN. Do you think that lay people that read that article will realize that there was even a single knock on DOs. I sure as hell wouldn't have. It's just a writer trying create a little shock and awe for the public in regards to the atrocities that physicians have to go through in this day and age (sarcasm alert).

You're right, people won't associate this article with DOs at all, the reference is passing at best. Also, you read through the bs and saw the point of the author writing this article - whining self-promotion.
 
To clarify my previous LONG post...the point of the post wasn't to B!$#* or moan/whine about the "perils" of being a DO (I personally really like my profession). I was just trying to illustrate how negative or ill-informed opinions about OMM can cause stigmas toward the DO profession. I completely agree with the money point of view but that wasn't my particular focus...even though it is a good one. On a lighter note, If you ask me...I think they should change MD degrees to DO instead of to MD-O/MD-DO and then there won't be anymore discrepency or BS arguments about which is better:)
 
I think anyone in the top one percent of wage earners should have their right to bitch about wages revoked.
Try supporting a family on Walmart employee wages, you pompous bastard.
i heard a great comparison regarding this idea...

Some of you may be in the top of your class...given awards, scholarships, residencies clamoring for your application...you've worked hard and are reaping the benefits...
Most of us are not...we are barely making it by and just hoping to graduate.
So, in the spirit of fairness and equality, i feel that all students in the top 25% of their respective classes should give some of their grades to us less fortunate Wal-Mart type of students...it is, afterall, only fair that we get what you have...oh, and don't whine about it...you are in the top % of the nation you know...with all those A's on your transcript, you're sure not going to miss over half of them!!!
 
i heard a great comparison regarding this idea...

Some of you may be in the top of your class...given awards, scholarships, residencies clamoring for your application...you've worked hard and are reaping the benefits...
Most of us are not...we are barely making it by and just hoping to graduate.
So, in the spirit of fairness and equality, i feel that all students in the top 25% of their respective classes should give some of their grades to us less fortunate Wal-Mart type of students...it is, afterall, only fair that we get what you have...oh, and don't whine about it...you are in the top % of the nation you know...with all those A's on your transcript, you're sure not going to miss over half of them!!!

That is the funniest thing I have ever read here!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
After awhile this kind of sentiment all starts
sounding like the same sad skipping record.

In the meantime, real Osteopathic researchers like Dr. Kuchera
at PCOM are doing the real work. Osteopathy has been helping
people for decades, and if we keep our monkey minds tamed
long enough, we'll have our shiney, pretty double blinds and a whole
lot more....

warm regard.
 
Are you seriously going to use QUACKWATCH.org as a reference?
<shudder> I feel dirty...



He's slamming OMT, not the DO degree. Frankly, he's right.
 
Article on Time Magazine recently. I can not believe that this was not posted on SDN yet. Pretty much calls DOs shams!!!

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1584803,00.html

Are you mad? Drop them an email at [email protected] (include your home address and home phone number if you want to be printed).

I wouldn't pay him too much mind. First he talks about the lack of measurable methods for osteopathic manipulations, etc. as the reasoning for it being such a "sham" as stated above, but in another Time article he talks about the power of "hope" in his patients and how it can effect them. I am a believer myself in the power of "hope", but I question how justifies supporting its role in medicine when, as of writing this, I have never encountered a scientific method for measuring "hope". Also, he is an orthopedic surgeon and I question whether his statements are genuinely based on his research into the topics or simply biased due to his specialty training. He criticizes other physicians for practicing medicine that may be more elective or nonsurgical/pharmacological in nature, but it would not be monetarily beneficial for his practice if he were to recommend his patients to an osteopath or even a chiropractor for treatment prior to scheduling an OR. Just my thoughts on the topic.
 
Well....that's about 45 seconds of my life that I will never get back. My advice to you: develop thicker skin.

You are such a tool. Do you have something to say about everyone? The only time I had an inch of respect for you is when you claimed to have been in Afghanistan serving our country. If that is true, thank you. Other than that, get off your soap box.
 
i don't know...dkm has a point...
The AOA has concocted this casuistry in too many of us of being picked on, lowly, unrespected DO's...in short, the AOA tries to be offended. Thicker skin wouldn't hurt anybody...people are going to question your degree, your race, your financial status, your hair color, your religion.
 
Well IMO, I believe that this article and articles like these give Americans, Pre-Meds, Physicians, and anyone else for that matter a false image of osteopathic manipulation and osteopathic medicine in general. Whether you agree with OMM or not, it is not some sort of mystical thrown together witchcraft voodoo the author of this Time article seems to suggest. Also the financial argument of the article maybe 100% correct but that does not negate the fact that OMM is scientifically justifiable. Some may argue that OMM is not 100% effective or scientifically proven. I would completely agree. BUT can every modern or traditional medical practice, procedure, technique, point of view be scientifically validated with solid scientific method or deemed 100% effective? NOPE. But this point is a completely different topic all together.

My point is that as an osteopathic student, and future DO...articles like these really matter. Even if 2 people read it, these articles make a difference. Ripples eventually make waves. Osteopathic manipulation is a major factor differentiating "us from them." Discrediting OMM is discrediting DOs, even if the rest of his article makes sense. Also, IMO, OMM does not just encompass cracking backs, feeling for cranial motion, or using muscle energy etc etc. OMM has many facets like the simple use of palpation that we do not realize we do. Dr. Jadick "Hero, MD" or really "Hero, DO"...the DO guy in the Navy from the Newsweek article makes a great speech about this in an address he gave to the AOA (this speech was online...maybe someone has the link). And also I don't care if 1, 5, 10, 99.9999 percent of practicing DOs use or never use OMM....that's really not the point. When someone discredits OMM and makes light of the use....it shows ignorance toward our field of osteopathic medicine. Whether you chose to be a DO because you couldn't get into MD school or you chose to be a DO b/c you actually wanted to be, or anywhere in between...I think articles like these are important. Even if the author's main objective was finance and not OMM.

So to finish this up, I think anyone involved or interested in osteopathic medicine should look at this Time article and frown upon it. This is no "who cares...so what" article. Our profession should not be discredited nor taken lightly. Ideas like these are some of the reasons preventing many skilled DOs from being evaluated equally for highly competitive residencies. Even if you are a DO who hates OMM or uses it every single day...OMM is one of the major reasons that makes our degree different from MD. Articles like these are what give PDs, attendings, MDs, residents, interns, medical students, pre-meds, the general public, and even some of the current people involved in the osteopathic field the wrong idea. These kinds of articles give people the impression that osteopathic medical schools or osteopathic physicians come from the "minor leagues" or an inferior "conference" of medicine. Much like Boise State for collegiate football. Boise State defeating Oklahoma was no fluke...osteopaths can and do perform just as well as the "top tiered" medical students or physicians. I do not want my profession to be envisioned as the minor leagues of medicine b/c we are not. I just hope that everyone involved in osteopathic medicine would agree with me and maybe one day everyone else will also...

Good post. but I disagree in a few regards.

I don't think there are very many good scientific studies to back up OMT for most medical conditions outside of painful musculoskeletal problems. By good studies, I mean double-blinded placebo controlled prospective clinical trials of moderate to large number of patients. Most OMT trials are small and not double-blinded and, hence, are significantly flawed. And its kind of disingenuous to just state that nothing else in medicine is 100% either. That kind of reasoning can be used to justify all kinds of illegitimate nonsense.

I also don't see why, as a D.O., you feel a need to somehow be unique from M.D.'s. There is no reason to strive to be vastly different from an MD. We're all on the same team. If there truly was a groundbreaking lifesaving OMT technique discovered, then it should be used by both DO and MD's. The differences between the degrees are minor. I think you're putting too much value in being "unique".

I agree with you that some people have a notion that DO's are "minor league". These clowns often use average MCAT and GPA scores to bolster their arguments. The problem with that is they don't acknowledge that the top tier medical schools like Yale, Harvard, and John Hopkins all grant MD's and thus skew the averages. There's probably a difference between a grad from Hopkins and a grad from PCOM. But definitely not so when comparing a grad from Temple and a grad from PCOM. The MD's who use this argument are either flat out dishonest or not smart enough to recognize the flaw in their reasoning.

If you want OMT to have more credibility, then IMO it should be taught more like a science and less like a religion. The literature should be scrutinized as it would be for any other class in medical school. The oft cited study that demonstrates benefit for children with otitis media should be criticized for not being double blinded instead of hailed as "proof that OMT works", as many OMT instructors are apt to proclaim. But the course wasn't routinely taught this way when I was in osteopathic medical school. The teaching of OMT resembled a religion, right down to the fact that the underlying principles as they are taught have barely changed in over 100 years. Science changes. The fact that the OMT texts more or less haven't warrants some skepticism.
 
i don't know...dkm has a point...
The AOA has concocted this casuistry in too many of us of being picked on, lowly, unrespected DO's...in short, the AOA tries to be offended. Thicker skin wouldn't hurt anybody...people are going to question your degree, your race, your financial status, your hair color, your religion.

I am not saying dkm has a point. I just find his way of expressing his view points to be annoying.

At the same time, I give him credit for his service to our country.
 
I agree with USARMYDOC...DKM's post about thick skin was uncalled for and seemed like a typical response from someone who could care less. I PMed him and things are cool now.

Other posts are pretty interesting...like McDoctor's (i love that name btw).

I think OMT is a valuable tool...and I also do not think ALL aspects of OMT are useful. I have spent countless hours in our OMT labs watching the clock b/c I thought what we were learning was a waste of time. But I do think somethings are valuable and beneficial to patient health.

OMT and the physicians that use only OMT may seem like a cult of some sorts. I can see people's point. But you will see this in EVERY field of medicine...from osteopathic Psych to allopathic Plastics (Sameul Shem writes two good books on this). So I would agree...OMT needs a facelift and refinement in certain modalities...especially cranial and some lymphatics.

To comment on my original post. The reason I wrote it was to say that as osteopaths, right now...we are "different" from allopaths. Different in a sense that, in my experience, osteopathic medicine is unknown to many so by default not as good. The "extremes" of medicine, osteopathic vs. allopathic, probably at one point were very different. Retaining that ancient philosophy is poor taste, IMO. I think somewhere in the middle is where medicine in the US is headed. As my generation of doctors take the power positions of the AOA and AMA and the dinosaur docs die out (Both MD and DO)...the Berlin Wall of medicine will no longer exist. It will be rare to impossible to find us vs. them. Most likely there will be one governing board (no longer a separate AOA and AMA) for all physicians. Like all things...it will just take time.:)
 
I agree with USARMYDOC...DKM's post about thick skin was uncalled for and seemed like a typical response from someone who could care less. I PMed him and things are cool now.

Other posts are pretty interesting...like McDoctor's (i love that name btw).

I think OMT is a valuable tool...and I also do not think ALL aspects of OMT are useful. I have spent countless hours in our OMT labs watching the clock b/c I thought what we were learning was a waste of time. But I do think somethings are valuable and beneficial to patient health.

OMT and the physicians that use only OMT may seem like a cult of some sorts. I can see people's point. But you will see this in EVERY field of medicine...from osteopathic Psych to allopathic Plastics (Sameul Shem writes two good books on this). So I would agree...OMT needs a facelift and refinement in certain modalities...especially cranial and some lymphatics.

To comment on my original post. The reason I wrote it was to say that as osteopaths, right now...we are "different" from allopaths. Different in a sense that, in my experience, osteopathic medicine is unknown to many so by default not as good. The "extremes" of medicine, osteopathic vs. allopathic, probably at one point were very different. Retaining that ancient philosophy is poor taste, IMO. I think somewhere in the middle is where medicine in the US is headed. As my generation of doctors take the power positions of the AOA and AMA and the dinosaurs docs die out (Both MD and DO)...the Berlin Wall of medicine will no longer exist. It will be rare to find us vs. them. Like all things...it will just take time.:)
 
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