To all Pre-Meds: Stop Whining about Salary

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Sorry, thread title should read: To all Pre-Meds: Stop Whining about Salary...dang typo


Anyone who thinks $160,000+ isn't enough to live on doesn't know how to shop, how to live within their means, is a gold digger, doesn't know how to take care of their finances, and needs to pay for a finical expert so they don't end up homeless.

http://www.allied-physicians.com/sal...n-salaries.htm

SPECIALTY Years 1-2 >3 Max
Allergy/ Immunology $158,000 $221,000 $487,000
Ambulatory $ 80,000 $112,000 $152,000
Anesthesiology: Pediatrics $ 283,000 $311,000 $378,000
Anesthesiology: General $207,000 $275,000 $448,000
Anesthesiology: Pain Management $315,000 $370,000 $651,000
Cardiology: Invasive $258,000 $395,000 $647,000
Cardiology: Interventional $290,000 $468,000 $811,000
Cardiology: Noninvasive $268,000 $403,000 $599,000
Critical Care $187,000 $215,000 $320,000
Dermatology $ 195,000 $308,000 $452,000
Emergency Medicine $192,000 $216,000 $295,000
Endocrinology $171,000 $187,000 $260,000
FP (with OB) $182,000 $204,000 $241,000
FP (w/o OB) $161,000 $135,000 $239,000
FP - Sports Medicine $ 152,000 $208,000 $363,000
FP - Urgent Care $ 128,000 $198,000 $299,000
Gastroenterology $265,000 $349,000 $590,000
Hematology/Oncology $181,348 $245,000 $685,000
Infectious Disease $154,000 $178,000 $271,000
Internal Medicine $154,000 $176,000 $238,000
IM (Hospitalist) $161,000 $172,000 $245,000
Medicine/Pediatrics $139,000 $168,000 $271,000
Medical Oncology $198,000 $257,000 $455,000
Neonatal Medicine $286,000 $310,000 $381,000
Nephrology $191,000 $269,000 $447,000
Neurology $180,000 $228,000 $345,000
Obstetrics/Gynecology $211,000 $261,000 $417,000
Gynecology $159,000 $213,000 $358,000
Maternal/Fetal Medicine $286,000 $322,000 $610,000
Occupational Medicine $139,000 $185,000 $290,000
Ophthalmology $138,000 $314,000 $511,000
Ophthalmology Retina $280,000 $469,000 $716,000
Orthopedic Surgery $256,000 $342,000 $670,000
ORS - Foot & Ankle $228,000 $392,000 $791,000
ORS - Hand & Upper Extremities $288,000 $459,000 $770,000
ORS - Hip & Joint Replacement $330,000 $491,000 $715,000
ORS - Spine Surgery $398,000 $670,000 $1,352,000
ORS - Sports Medicine $266,000 $479,000 $762,000
Otorhinolaryngology $194,000 $311,000 $516,000
Pathology $169,000 $321,000 $610,000
Pediatrics $135,000 $175,000 $271,000
Pediatrics - Cardiology $145,000 $282,000 $607,000
Pediatrics - Critical Care $196,000 $259,000 $398,000
Pediatrics - Hematology/Oncology $182,000 $217,000 $251,000
Pediatrics - Neurology $175,000 $189,000 $362,000
Physiatry $169,000 $244,000 $313,000
Podiatry $128,000 $168,000 $292,000
Psychiatry $149,000 $169,000 $238,000
Psychiatry - Child and Adolescent $158,000 $189,000 $265,000
Pulmonary Medicine + Critical Care $215,000 $288,000 $417,000
Radiation Oncology $241,000 $385,000 $787,000
Radiology $201,000 $354,000 $911,000
Rheumatology $179,000 $229,000 $378,000
Surgery - General $226,000 $291,000 $520,000
Surgery - Cardiovascular $336,000 $515,000 $811,000
Surgery - Neurological $354,000 $541,000 $936,000
Surgery - Plastic $237,000 $412,000 $820,000
Surgery - Vascular $270,000 $329,000 $525,000
Urology $261,000 $358,000 $619,000

If you don't know how to live on this kind of salary you need some serious help. It drives me crazy seeing a bunch of rich pre-med students complaining about only making 100k dollars a year. Don't you people that the average income in this country is $50,000? My god, how are you going to live on a salary that is 3 times that income level?

OMG mom, I only made 173k dollars last year and I just bought a new car. What can I do? To top it all I got a letter in the mail today that my malpractice insurance cost went up $5,000 today. How am I going to survive? I need to feed my family.

So mom asks, what are your expenses? The son/daughter responds back saying, well, I have a $500,000 house which puts me at $3326.51 a month for my mortgage payment, I have $75,000 car that requires me to pay $412 a month, I have to pay $10,000 in property taxes, my wife wants her to buy her a 2007 BMW, and I still have $212,000 to pay back for my school debt. Oh how am I going to survive? My monthly income is $15,000 a month and my monthly expenses are about $8,000. My life is doomed, how am I going to buy my daughter her brand new Cadillac when she turns 16 next year?
 
Genetics said:
Sorry, thread title should read: To all Pre-Meds: Stop Whining about Salary...dang typo
Click to expand...

The word is "whining" not "winning". Anyhow there are many more accurate salary surveys than the allied one, which is pretty regularly discredited on here.

The JAMA figures from a few years ago are more reputable.

See http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_hours_worked.htm.


At any rate, physician salaries have decreased by about 7% over the last decade, which is the opposite trend of most other professions. It is a profession in flux. Still rewarding, but unlikely to regain the "golden age" status it had a few generations back.
 
I changed the title of the thread for you, but in the future you can edit your own thread titles by editing the first post then clicking "go advanced".
 
Actually, it is ironic that this thread came up when it did. Today in a small group discussion, instead of ending and going to the wards to see patients, we talked all about finances. It was totally random, but we went over a lot of things about student loans, lifestyle after residency, how to invest in certain things, etc. People were going over all this stuff and I found myself getting stressed out b/c people were talking about so-and-so who can't afford to pay off his loans, etc. Then I snapped out of it and realized I am 22 years old, I don't have any money, I come from a working class family, and I am fine. I'm not going to wake up tomorrow and realize I can't pay my bills, etc. And that is me being broke!! I definitely shouldn't have that problem when I actually do make money one day. The point is that everyone needs to take a chill pill and realize that everyone else seems to be making it just fine, and so will we.
 
Ok Genetics, your point is taken. But seriously, your killing me here with your huge posts. I defended your last thread about Med Gen, but now even I am growing weary. :d
 
braluk said:
Lol DKM im surprised you didnt mention anything about the salaries of medical geneticists 😉 You guys have had quite the run ins lol
Click to expand...

I would actually be interested in learning more about average Clinical Geneticist salaries and lifestyle :laugh:
 
braluk said:
Lol DKM im surprised you didnt mention anything about the salaries of medical geneticists 😉 You guys have had quite the run ins lol
Click to expand...
I believe the average salary is somewhere in the neighborhood of $50-60K a year. However, he made a valid point and therefore I have no reason to turn this thread into a debacle.
 
UTpremed said:
The point is that everyone needs to take a chill pill and realize that everyone else seems to be making it just fine, and so will we.
Click to expand...

Agree. It would be absurd to suggest that most physicians cannot make ends meet. But too many folks on here take the opposite extreme and seem to think they will be bringing in mid to high six figure salaries after residency (fueled by things like the max category on that allied salary survey) and frankly those jobs are a rarity these days. You should be comfortable in medicine. But if you are thinking mansions and ferraris, you had better have an awfully good side business, win the lottery or marry rich because most doctors don't make that kind of money anymore.
 
poor primary care physicians. while being in the Point of Service bunch seems nice in principal, you work long hours and earn less than a basic podiatrist...
 
the average person also probably has about a 10th grade education. i still think i deserve to make at least 350k when all is said and done.
 
etf said:
the average person also probably has about a 10th grade education. i still think i deserve to make at least 350k when all is said and done.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately what you deserve and what you attain are rarely the same thing. If you are hoping for a salary well above the average medical salary, you had better be well above the average med student and then resident.
 
hes very right ive seen post after post complaining about money, doctors arent scrapping for food at all, and ive yet to see a doctor who isnt living a comfortable life monetary wise
 
Law2Doc said:
Unfortunately what you deserve and what you attain are rarely the same thing. If you are hoping for a salary well above the average medical salary, you had better be well above the average med student and then resident.
Click to expand...

yeah you're probably right - i don't think anyone can count on being at the top of their class, especially at the pre-acceptance stage. anyway, i'm counting on my investing savvy to make up the difference...
 
etf said:
yeah you're probably right - i don't think anyone can count on being at the top of their class, especially at the pre-acceptance stage. anyway, i'm counting on my investing savvy to make up the difference...
Click to expand...
I count on my total lack of morals to help make up for the difference. :laugh:
 
LOL. :laugh:

I understand the desire to be financially successful. It should not be the primary reason one seeks to become a physician or enter a given specialty though. Money does not buy happiness. Take it from a former lawyer who knows.
 
It was an example to illustrate my point.

MirrorTodd said:
What the **** do you need a 75,000 dollar car for? I have a 1000 dollar car that I make insurance payments on and that's all.
Click to expand...
 
I just made it up. I didn't check on how much a payment will be for a 75k dollar car. The house payment I actually did a quick Google search for.



jae9970 said:
Could you please PM me with the information where you got this loan??
Click to expand...
 
I think the primary reason why most premeds (and med students) care so much about salary is because it take A LOT of time, money and effort to become a doctor. You work your ass off for 10+ years, shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars and if you come out making 100k, you're bound to be disappointed considering how hard you had to work, how much you had to pay, etc.

Yes, premeds can be overly obsessed with salary, but, partly, that obsession is justified.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
I believe the average salary is somewhere in the neighborhood of $50-60K a year. However, he made a valid point and therefore I have no reason to turn this thread into a debacle.
Click to expand...

Are you serious? An MD and 4 or 5 years of residency for medical genetics to only make 50-60k/year? Surely this cannot be accurate, else there would be no way any physician would go into this field (no way to afford it with the debt load). Were you referring to genetic counselors instead??
 
Haemulon said:
Are you serious? An MD and 4 or 5 years of residency to only make 50-60k/year? Surely this cannot be accurate, else there would be no way any physician would go into this field (no way to afford it with the debt load). Were you referring to genetic counselors instead??
Click to expand...

I think he means 50-60k a year is what the average American makes. Although I am not familiar with those statistics.
 
DoctorPardi said:
I think he means 50-60k a year is what the average American makes. Although I am not familiar with those statistics.
Click to expand...

Your right, sorry. I thought at first he was talking about medical geneticists. Whew! Close one. (I was about to immediately rule that out as an option :laugh: )
 
what's the debate about? most people know you won't be a millionaire as a doctor but you'll be pretty well off with a comfortable lifestyle.
 
That's exactly the debate. Some people choose to buy expensive things, but I'm going to have a lot of trouble supporting my 7 live-in girlfriends. One for each day of the week. Show The Todd some love!!!
 
Haemulon said:
Are you serious? An MD and 4 or 5 years of residency for medical genetics to only make 50-60k/year? Surely this cannot be accurate, else there would be no way any physician would go into this field (no way to afford it with the debt load). Were you referring to genetic counselors instead??
Click to expand...
Actually i dont know, DKM said that in response to what i had said in my second post. So im not sure if he meant genetic counselors or otherwise 😕
 
One:

Yes, he was talking about counselers because that is what OP strives to be.

Two:
If you're an MD, barring a terrible screw-up on your own part, you're going to have work and be reasonably compensated throughout your career until you decide to retire. A lot of other professions don't have that luxury.
 
internet high-five to the todd!! Anyway, this post is great, Genetics shows what is a large problem with the american society and the idea of buy now pay later. People should be less selfish and more prudent.
 
Jccripe said:
internet high-five to the todd!! Anyway, this post is great, Genetics shows what is a large problem with the american society and the idea of buy now pay later. People should be less selfish and more prudent.
Click to expand...
actually, this is a good point. Most European countries save much of their money while Americans tend to be very big on consumption.
 
DoctorPardi said:
I think he means 50-60k a year is what the average American makes. Although I am not familiar with those statistics.
Click to expand...

That statistic sounds a little high; sounds more like total household income not individual income. A 50-60k salary would allow you to afford a very nice home and lifestyle. I used to have that kind of salary (slightly less) before making this silly decision to pursue medical school and I considered myself to be upper-middle class. Too bad many people here will never know what it's like to struggle between paychecks to support a family; it'd help them to relate to the patients that really are in need of care.
 
Haemulon said:
Are you serious? An MD and 4 or 5 years of residency for medical genetics to only make 50-60k/year?
Click to expand...
I think he's talking about a medical genetics counsellor. It doesn't require an MD, it requires a masters.
 
I was talking about the average household income. The genetic counseling salary is just above the average household income.

Here is some data: the median household income in 2002-2003 (notice that these numbers are lower then what I gave in my posts because the average household income has increased) of the four census regions —Northeast ($46,742), Midwest ($44,732) and West ($46,820). The exception was the South, where income declined 1.5 percent. The South continued to have the lowest median household income of all four regions ($39,823).

Warning: these numbers are no longer accurate as they have increased since 2002-2003.
 
DoctorPardi said:
I think he means 50-60k a year is what the average American makes. Although I am not familiar with those statistics.
Click to expand...

that statistic actually does sound about right, but that's because the real stat you want to use is median income, and that sounds like the mean income...For example, if you say Bill Gates makes $100 mil., then the average income among Bill Gates and 99 homeless people is $1 mil. which is obviously a misleading statistic.

usually when they discuss salaries on the news, they talk in terms of the median income which is a more realistic picture of what the average american makes, and is significantly lower than $50-60k.

also, my experience with SDN has been that most people on here seem to come from families with incomes above $250k...and they therefore believe it takes at least $100-200k to "get by" and anything under that must be poverty without realizing that most people can live a very nice life (nice home, cable tv, internet access, eating out, going to sporting events, owning nice cars) on significantly less than $100k

(and yes, i know that someone is going to chime in and tell me how expensive it is to live in san francisco...but honestly, i really don't care, so there.) :meanie:
 
to the OP:

Amen brother. Excellent post.
 
dontwakeme said:
I think the primary reason why most premeds (and med students) care so much about salary is because it take A LOT of time, money and effort to become a doctor. You work your ass off for 10+ years, shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars and if you come out making 100k, you're bound to be disappointed considering how hard you had to work, how much you had to pay, etc.

Yes, premeds can be overly obsessed with salary, but, partly, that obsession is justified.
Click to expand...

The hell if I'll be dissapointed. Think of it as an investment. Lets go high and say you shell out 250k for med school. In three years of this 100k salary you will have gotten your investment back plus 50k. Sure, you won't be debt free in three years, but you will have gotten your money back with some to spare. Now, add onto that the fact that you'll be continuing to make this salary for the rest of your life. I have no problem with 100k. And quite frankly, if its really that much of a problem for you, I dont' want you to be my doctor.
 
MirrorTodd said:
That's exactly the debate. Some people choose to buy expensive things, but I'm going to have a lot of trouble supporting my 7 live-in girlfriends. One for each day of the week. Show The Todd some love!!!
Click to expand...
These are my girls. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, wait, who are you? Wednesday, did you give him a Bud Light?

Man, put down my papaya!
 
All I'm saying is that you get what you put into life. It's only natural to expect large rewards for the sacrifices you make to become a doctor.

Koch said:
The hell if I'll be dissapointed. Think of it as an investment. Lets go high and say you shell out 250k for med school. In three years of this 100k salary you will have gotten your investment back plus 50k. Sure, you won't be debt free in three years, but you will have gotten your money back with some to spare. Now, add onto that the fact that you'll be continuing to make this salary for the rest of your life. I have no problem with 100k. And quite frankly, if its really that much of a problem for you, I dont' want you to be my doctor.
Click to expand...
 
dontwakeme said:
All I'm saying is that you get what you put into life. It's only natural to expect large rewards for the sacrifices you make to become a doctor.
Click to expand...

Many people make large sacrifices and work very hard toward careers that pay significantly less and offer much less certainty.
 
also, my experience with SDN has been that most people on here seem to come from families with incomes above $250k...and they therefore believe it takes at least $100-200k to "get by" and anything under that must be poverty without realizing that most people can live a very nice life (nice home, cable tv, internet access, eating out, going to sporting events, owning nice cars) on significantly less than $100k
Click to expand...

Nope.....both of my parents together make about 2/3 of what I make with my "lowly" associate's degree (which is ~$55K a year). But that I think anything under $150K is unacceptable for a physician, it has nothing to do with my family background.
 
Why do you keep on braging about getting paid ~55K with your associate's degree?

DropkickMurphy said:
Nope.....both of my parents together make about 2/3 of what I make with my "lowly" associate's degree (which is ~$55K a year). But that I think anything under $150K is unacceptable for a physician, it has nothing to do with my family background.
Click to expand...
 
Genetics said:
Why do you keep on braging about getting paid ~55K with your associate's degree?
Click to expand...
I wasn't bragging....I was making a point that not even a small majority of us come from a family that makes $250K a year like the previous poster claimed.
 
hmm. I'd be bragging if I made 55k with an associates degree. Not sure why you would pick on him for that. I agree with DKM. Based on some of the SDNer input regarding paying for medical school, SDNers backgrounds, etc., I would truly doubt that 'most' of the people on here come from households with income >250k.
 
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