To attend or postpone? Toughest decision of my life

[ChrisGriffen]

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[SLC]

Who is "us"? There is only enough room on that high horse for one person at a time

"Us" refers to me and everyone else on the forum who's mature enough to realize that using the word "******" as a slur is not befitting someone who wants to become a physician (or just a decent human being if I'm being honest).

It isn't witty, it isn't really insulting, and it denigrates those, who by no fault of their own, have developmental and mental disabilities. These are some of the people most deserving of our respect and protection and you want to use them and their disability to try and disrespect someone as though being developmentally disabled is some sort of embarrassment?

All that does is demonstrate how immature you are, and how you really feel about people who actually are mentally ******ed.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

"Us" refers to me and everyone else on the forum who's mature enough to realize that using the word "******" as a slur is not befitting someone who wants to become a physician (or just a decent human being if I'm being honest).

It isn't witty, it isn't really insulting, and it denigrates those, who by no fault of their own, have developmental and mental disabilities. These are some of the people most deserving of our respect and protection and you want to use them to try and disrespect someone?

All that does is demonstrate how immature you are, and how you really feel about people who actually are mentally ******ed.

And yet again, the only person who has said that word is still you

You are destined to live a miserable life if this is how much you overreact about things.

 

[SLC]

And yet again, the only person who has said that word is still you

Tell us then. What exactly did you mean by this:

Whoever is suggesting it for financial reasons is a ********

Using asterisks doesn't somehow change what your post actually says.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

You are a steamy little teapot today arent you?

It doesn't take a genius to realize that ****** is 6 letters, while what I had typed is 8 letters.

I will however say this. There are already enough people in the world who get offended by everything and have to climb onto a soapbox. We get it. You bruise easily. Here is the thing though....99.9% of people in the world are smart enough to realize that I am in no way suggesting that the person in question is suffering from a disability. Just like I am in no way suggesting that you should untangle your panties. I am not sugesting that you are literally wearing panties, and they have gotten twisted...i mean that simply as a figure of speech.

Just breathe and you will get through this



And once again......people with mental handicaps werent brought up until YOU posted about them.

 

[SLC]

You are a steamy little teapot today arent you?

It doesn't take a genius to realize that ****** is 6 letters, while what I had typed is 8 letters.

I will however say this. There are already enough people in the world who get offended by everything and have to climb onto a soapbox. We get it. You bruise easily. Here is the thing though....99.9% of people in the world are smart enough to realize that I am in no way suggesting that the person in question is suffering from a disability. Just like I am in no way suggesting that you should untangle your panties. I am not sugesting that you are literally wearing panties, and they have gotten twisted...i mean that simply as a figure of speech.

Just breathe and you will get through this



And once again......people with mental handicaps werent brought up until YOU posted about them.

Nice non answer...

So I take it I'm spot on in my assessment of your post? If I am not, then by all means tell us exactly what you meant by ********

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Nice non answer...

So I take it I'm spot on in my assessment of your post? If I am not, then by all means tell us exactly what you meant by ********

Once again.....please count the number of characters. Use your fingers if that helps.

Im done here

 

[SLC]

Once again.....please count the number of characters. Use your fingers if that helps.

It's really weird that you won't answer the question.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

It's really weird that you won't answer the question.

Probably because SDN asterisks are for a censored word.

I could repeat it 1000 times and it would still look the same. You are a ********. See?


I really am done now. Im sure you will find ways to keep busy while you transform the world into political correctness.

 

[SLC]

Probably because SDN asterisks are for a censored word.

I could repeat it 1000 times and it would still look the same. You are a ********. See?


I really am done now. Im sure you will find ways to keep busy while you transform the world into political correctness.

Your censored word still contains the R-word. Look it up. Here's a hint, for all your blathering about my need to count asterisks on my fingers, you seem to have neglected the fact that your slur contains the suffix "-****"

When the suffix "-****" is added on to any adjective or noun, the resulting conjunction is intended to render a word that will connote an inferior, idiotic or dumber-than-dirt quality to the person the slur is directed toward.

The objective is to separate and distinguish the "user" from those being "used." The user in this case, of course, is the person spewing the words: "******," "******ed" and "-****." (This would be you CG). Those being used are the original population of special needs individuals who served as the catalyst for this kind of disparaging vitriol in the first place. They are those kids who ride on the smaller school bus. The ones who have personal space and proximity issues. The ones who talk funny. The ones with flat faces. The ones who drool. The ones who talk to themselves. And most importantly, many of those with intellectual disabilities are defenseless to this word.

However blithe the everyday practice of spicing up one's speech with the words "******," "******ed" and the suffix "-****" has become, the (presumably) unintended result is still the same. A population of people, who has never done anything to harm anyone, is circuitously targeted and suffers from a trickle-down discrimination that is very real.

So as I said before, I hope you're proud of yourself. You're showing your true colors.

You can call me over dramatic, tell me to chill out, that it's only a word...but it's more than a word. Use of that term and its derivatives is a means to take away the worth of an entire group of people, and to use those people as some sort of means to insult another person.

I just find it highly despicable, and I will call people out for it. You can expect that if I see you use it again on these forums.

 

[RoyalMule]

Congrats to you both on ruining a thread for a guy that needs legitimate advice.

 

[SLC]

Congrats to you both on ruining a thread for a guy that needs legitimate advice.

What I said needed to be said, a few different times apparently.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Your censored word still contains the R-word. Look it up. Here's a hint, for all your blathering about my need to count asterisks on my fingers, you seem to have neglected the fact that your slur contains the suffix "-****"

When the suffix "-****" is added on to any adjective or noun, the resulting conjunction is intended to render a word that will connote an inferior, idiotic or dumber-than-dirt quality to the person the slur is directed toward.

The objective is to separate and distinguish the "user" from those being "used." The user in this case, of course, is the person spewing the words: "******," "******ed" and "-****." (This would be you CG). Those being used are the original population of special needs individuals who served as the catalyst for this kind of disparaging vitriol in the first place. They are those kids who ride on the smaller school bus. The ones who have personal space and proximity issues. The ones who talk funny. The ones with flat faces. The ones who drool. The ones who talk to themselves. And most importantly, many of those with intellectual disabilities are defenseless to this word.

However blithe the everyday practice of spicing up one's speech with the words "******," "******ed" and the suffix "-****" has become, the (presumably) unintended result is still the same. A population of people, who has never done anything to harm anyone, is circuitously targeted and suffers from a trickle-down discrimination that is very real.

So as I said before, I hope you're proud of yourself. You're showing your true colors.

You can call me over dramatic, tell me to chill out, that it's only a word...but it's more than a word. Use of that term and its derivatives is a means to take away the worth of an entire group of people, and to use those people as some sort of means to insult another person.

I just find it highly despicable, and I will call people out for it. You can expect that if I see you use it again on these forums.

Tldr

 

[burritowithgreensauce]

I am having great difficulty securing work upon graduation in the northeast.
.

u do realize that if you decide to go for anything relatively competitive - regardless of md/do - the next ~10 years of your life are pretty much in limbo...
med school location
residency location
fellowship location
job at a location that meets your cost of living requirements.

if it were me? i'd take the pharmD. work somewhere less desirable. take everything as a learning experience and ultimately make ur way back home.

 

[s5260205]

u do realize that if you decide to go for anything relatively competitive - regardless of md/do - the next ~10 years of your life are pretty much in limbo...
med school location
residency location
fellowship location
job at a location that meets your cost of living requirements.

if it were me? i'd take the pharmD. work somewhere less desirable. take everything as a learning experience and ultimately make ur way back home.

Account created today to bump some old threads. And suggesting people to go PharmD and DNP over an acceptance of medical schools. :troll:

 

[burritowithgreensauce]

Account created today to bump some old threads. And suggesting people to go PharmD and DNP over an acceptance of medical schools. :troll:

There's more to life than going to med school. Sorry for giving my two cents. I guess I'll just say what everyone else wants to hear: "go for it! Don't worry bout the crushing debt ure going to experience if u go for ur medical degree. Ure that one special snow flake that'll get ortho and easily pay back ure student debts with no problem."

Better?

 

[Tragram]

mdr8, there are also other loan forgiveness options. At one of my interviews this year a faculty member told us about how he worked for three years in an under-served region, and had all of his loans forgiven (undergrad and med school). Or signing a 5-7 year long contract in a smaller town opens up possibilities for signing bonuses. I met a guy who was signed on for 5 years in a town of about 50K before he was finished with his residency, for $150K. But it all boils down to whether or not the investment will be worth it to you. Best of luck.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

Account created today to bump some old threads. And suggesting people to go PharmD and DNP over an acceptance of medical schools. :troll:

Exactly

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

These are gunner pre-meds who are probably on the wait list at the same school you are accepted to. Anybody telling you to not go to medical school is giving you horrible advice.

 

[burritowithgreensauce]

These are gunner pre-meds who are probably on the wait list at the same school you are accepted to. Anybody telling you to not go to medical school is giving you horrible advice.

Close. But no cigar.

These are the "daddy trust funds" who are probably in your incoming class and have no real concept of money. Anybody telling you to go to medical school, which will cost about ~300k, while your 200k debt accrues is give you horrible advice and has probably never worked a real job.

Obviously, do whatever you want to do, but if I was in your shoes I would pay off my student loans and start building my 401k. You're 28 and have the opprotunity to start earning a 6 figure salary. Granted, it might not be in the location you want, but guess what? that's life. Sounds alot better than spending the next ~10 years trying to become a doctor and then tackling the debt.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

Close. But no cigar.

These are the "daddy trust funds" who are probably in your incoming class and have no real concept of money. Anybody telling you to go to medical school, which will cost about ~300k, while your 200k debt accrues is give you horrible advice and has probably never worked a real job.

Obviously, do whatever you want to do, but if I was in your shoes I would pay off my student loans and start building my 401k. You're 28 and have the opprotunity to start earning a 6 figure salary. Granted, it might not be in the location you want, but guess what? that's life. Sounds alot better than spending the next ~10 years trying to become a doctor and then tackling the debt.

Your "concept of money" is so wrong that there is 0% chance you are anything but a premed, trying to thin your competition.

And i can already tell from your condescending rhetoric, you are a non-traditional pre-med.

 

[burritowithgreensauce]

Your "concept of money" is so wrong that there is 0% chance you are anything but a premed, trying to thin your competition.

And i can already tell from your condescending rhetoric, you are a non-traditional pre-med.

i have nothing to prove to u. i'm just posting my own opinion; for better or worse. don't get so offended. welcome to the internet.

 

[YankeeCandle1141]

i have nothing to prove to u. i'm just posting my own opinion; for better or worse. don't get so offended. welcome to the internet.

Giving bad advice to someone about a major life decision isnt something to be taken lightly.

This field is not like any other. Healthcare providers who carry massive loans cant just quit one day and try something else. Once you start, you cant just retire and go be a teacher. We have too much debt and have invested too much time to get here.

Working in a field that ALREADY doesn't make you happy at age 28 is committing to a miserable life. Go to medical school, ignore the advice of other pre-meds.

Its
Working off 500k debt from a (much better paying) job that makes you happy
Vs
Working off 250k debt while being miserable your entire life.

 

[hallowmann]

Close. But no cigar.

These are the "daddy trust funds" who are probably in your incoming class and have no real concept of money. Anybody telling you to go to medical school, which will cost about ~300k, while your 200k debt accrues is give you horrible advice and has probably never worked a real job.

Obviously, do whatever you want to do, but if I was in your shoes I would pay off my student loans and start building my 401k. You're 28 and have the opprotunity to start earning a 6 figure salary. Granted, it might not be in the location you want, but guess what? that's life. Sounds alot better than spending the next ~10 years trying to become a doctor and then tackling the debt.

89% of medical students are taking out loans. Some may have trust funds, but the vast majority don't. Average DO graduate debt is ~$220k. At my school its ~$187k. Assuming OP gets into my school (no state preference and basically average when it comes to entry stats), they'd leave with ~$500k in debt.

It's certainly a lot, but given options like IBR, PAYE, and PSLF, it's certainly possible. Also, if OP was set on primary care, they could shave off ~$47k (almost 10% of their debt) with the 3-yr program.

In any case, strictly looking at it from a financial perspective, OP would accrue ~$140k in interest over 7 yrs on the pharm loans, will have ~$230k from med school after 3 yrs of residency (assuming they pay nothing during residency), and will lose ~$500k in pharm wages over the 7 yrs (subtract ~$150k from the total lost income because of 3 yrs resident pay). So altogether, OP loses ~$870k. Adding in at most ~$400k additional compound interest assuming a very long-term repayment. That puts us at what ~$1.3mil.

The thing is that that is the equivalent of working 20 years with physician pay (OP being 28 now, and starting with attending salary at 35, that's working to the age of 55) instead of pharmicist pay. And that's without loan forgiveness programs factored in.

In other words, even in the worst case scenario, OP would only need to work as a physician until they are 55 for this investment to be worth it. That's honestly reasonable, considering most docs work into their 60s, if not early 70s.

In any case, it's a long expensive road, and would require OP to actually live like a pharmacist or at very least diligently take advantage of loan forgiveness programs. It's only really worth it if that's what OP wants to do, and they understand the costs, but I wouldn't call it horrible advice to suggest that it could be worth it.

 

[Jamie561]

So essentially you would not get your medical school paid for, would get almost an attending's pay for your residency, and then would enter the air force for four years once you are an attending?

Taxes

 

[mdr8]

I am debating pursuing the HPSP route (will likely be talking to a recruiter Friday). I've been reading through all the old posts about military matching/training quality/deployment/civilian med vs. mil med institutions and culture etc. I know I would be making a huge sacrifice, but feel it could be worth it in the end. With the stipend, I would be able to pay off my interest on my pharmacy loans so that they do not grow and when in military residency, would actually be able to start paying them off. It would likely be the difference of coming out of residency with ~800k+ in loans (can't imagine the interest yearly on that sum) vs finishing military residency with under 200k in loans. The catch of course being my active duty obligation/deployment/lower military doc pay. It all comes down to: is the military route worth the difference in ~600k of debt. I guess it would depend on what type of medicine I end up practicing, but it is definitely something I am considering at this point in time. There are really only two options for me at this point if I want to not get stuck in a profession I am already unhappy in:

1 - make the sacrifices and deal with the uncertainty in military medicine
2 - take on the added debt and hope I am in a position to pay it off in the future

 

[burritowithgreensauce]

I still think u should just ride out the pharm career, but i think we're all past that talking point.

if it is happiness ure after do #2. It doesn't make sense to do a complete career change just to short yourself and tack on all these confounding variables that will reduce your chance at happiness. #1 is going to just lead to road of more complications and hoops to jump through.

 

[a runner]

Bank on public service loan forgiveness. It's available. Get in on it before it's gone. That way you can put your time in with the VA instead of being owned by the U.S. military for about the same number of years.

And if you do primary care or psych you have a lot more options than just the VA.

 

[mdr8]

Bank on public service loan forgiveness. It's available. Get in on it before it's gone. That way you can put your time in with the VA instead of being owned by the U.S. military for about the same number of years.

And if you do primary care or psych you have a lot more options than just the VA.

Can you elaborate on this a bit more? I'm not too familiar with public service loan forgiveness, and what do you mean get in on it before it's gone?

 

[GUH]

Bank on public service loan forgiveness. It's available. Get in on it before it's gone. That way you can put your time in with the VA instead of being owned by the U.S. military for about the same number of years.

And if you do primary care or psych you have a lot more options than just the VA.

What do you mean by "get in on it before it's gone"? You can't qualify for the program until you've already done your public service, which will be many years for someone who's a premed. It very well may disappear well before this poster even finishes his training, let alone the years of service required to qualify.

OP, do not bank on public service loan forgiveness. It may or may not still be there by the time you have completed your service.

 

[mdr8]

What do you mean by "get in on it before it's gone"? You can't qualify for the program until you've already done your public service, which will be many years for someone who's a premed. It very well may disappear well before this poster even finishes his training, let alone the years of service required to qualify.

OP, do not bank on public service loan forgiveness. It may or may not still be there by the time you have completed your service.

Haha thanks. I thought something sounded weird about that.

 

[hallowmann]

Haha thanks. I thought something sounded weird about that.

PAYE might still be around though. Also, like I said, even assuming median salary for pharm and family practice doc, you'd be able to make it worth it in 15-20 years of attending salary while living like a pharmacist (while paying off pharm loans). Aim for cheaper medical schools, apply for deferment of pharm loans, and take advantage of any scholarship or loan forgiveness programs you can.

HPSP is fine, but like i said above, just be sure you actually want to join the military.

 

[mdr8]

PAYE might still be around though. Also, like I said, even assuming median salary for pharm and family practice doc, you'd be able to make it worth it in 15-20 years of attending salary while living like a pharmacist (while paying off pharm loans). Aim for cheaper medical schools, apply for deferment of pharm loans, and take advantage of any scholarship or loan forgiveness programs you can.

HPSP is fine, but like i said above, just be sure you actually want to join the military.

Well the thing is, I've already been accepted to this medical school (UNECOM) and it appears to be the only one I'll be accepted to this year. When I start school my pharm loans will be ~250 and tuition alone at UNE is 52k per year (I'll likely have to use graduate plus loans). So you can imagine how large these loans will get. If it were you and you were absolutely choosing med school over practicing as a pharmacist in my situation, would you go the HPSP route or take on the debt and pay it off over the years? I'll make my own decision of course but I'm just curious what someone else's rationale would be for choosing one path over the other. Thanks!

 

[a runner]

Well the thing is, I've already been accepted to this medical school (UNECOM) and it appears to be the only one I'll be accepted to this year. When I start school my pharm loans will be ~250 and tuition alone at UNE is 52k per year (I'll likely have to use graduate plus loans). So you can imagine how large these loans will get. If it were you and you were absolutely choosing med school over practicing as a pharmacist in my situation, would you go the HPSP route or take on the debt and pay it off over the years? I'll make my own decision of course but I'm just curious what someone else's rationale would be for choosing one path over the other. Thanks!

Even with HPSP, your loans will be massive, in the 350-400k range by the time you finish residency. It's not worth the sacrifice unless you would do it anyways.

 

[a runner]

What do you mean by "get in on it before it's gone"? You can't qualify for the program until you've already done your public service, which will be many years for someone who's a premed. It very well may disappear well before this poster even finishes his training, let alone the years of service required to qualify.

OP, do not bank on public service loan forgiveness. It may or may not still be there by the time you have completed your service.

Ok, yeah that sounded like a used car salesman. The OP can't really get in on it before it's gone because he/she would be classified as a "current borrower" already based on his/her existing pharmacy loans. All of the proposals made so far have only applied to "new borrowers" and wouldn't apply to him/her, so either way he/she would qualify for public service loan forgiveness since any changes won't be retroactive.

To the OP, public service loan forgiveness will forgive all of your federal loans after 10 years working for government or a non-profit (including time spent in most residency programs). This doesn't include physician groups who contract to work at non-profit hospitals. Any proposed changes so far would only affect new borrowers who take out their very first federal loan after it would take effect.

 

[hallowmann]

Well the thing is, I've already been accepted to this medical school (UNECOM) and it appears to be the only one I'll be accepted to this year. When I start school my pharm loans will be ~250 and tuition alone at UNE is 52k per year (I'll likely have to use graduate plus loans). So you can imagine how large these loans will get. If it were you and you were absolutely choosing med school over practicing as a pharmacist in my situation, would you go the HPSP route or take on the debt and pay it off over the years? I'll make my own decision of course but I'm just curious what someone else's rationale would be for choosing one path over the other. Thanks!

This:

Even with HPSP, your loans will be massive, in the 350-400k range by the time you finish residency. It's not worth the sacrifice unless you would do it anyways.

I've done the math. Assuming interest rates don't significantly change, even if you take out $72k a year (this is total with fees etc), you'll still be able to pay off your loans in 19 years as an attending (i.e. 26 yrs from now), provided you pay $7500/year during residency & ~$75k/year (making your yearly income ~$100k before taxes based on a median FM doc salary). If you live like a resident (bump annual loan payments to $100-$115k) for the first 10 attending years, you could probably pay it off in that time, but that might be pretty hard to do. Either way, devoting more of you early salary will obviously shorten your time, but you'll have to see your situation is like at the time. Right now this is all speculation.

Your loans will peak at around $770-$800k at the end of residency and then actually start dropping. This is all assuming you work as an FM primary care doc. If you do something else the peak number may be higher, but you'll probably also be making more as an attending. Also none of this takes into account loan forgiveness/repayment incentives, which I strongly recommend you look into during late med school/residency.

Honestly, only you can decide if its worth it to you. I'm the type of person that would be fine living on $50k if it meant doing something I love, but being a pharmacist is a pretty comfortable job. If the reason is only because of location/job prospects or even pay (added cost kills this), I don't think its worth it to go to a DO school.