To Neuropsychologists, do you regret not becoming a neurologist instead?

[fellwynd2]

I'm currently trying to decide between getting a phd in neuropsychology (EDIT: clinical psychology and then specializing in neuropsychology) or getting a DO/MD and specializing in neurology, and I'm having a hard time deciding between those two options. One thing I've been telling myself is "if you go into neuropsychology you'll regret not doing neurology," but I don't know if that's actually true. So instead of obsessively worrying about it like usual, I've decided to come and ask the source.

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[Sanman]

Do you want to be a psychologist or a physician? At this stage, there is no guarantee you match into either of those specialties. The only guarantee is that you will have to spend years training to be one or the other if you are accepted into a program.

 

[fellwynd2]

Do you want to be a psychologist or a physician? At this stage, there is no guarantee you match into either of those specialties. The only guarantee is that you will have to spend years training to be one or the other if you are accepted into a program.

That's a good way to think about it actually. That's honestly part of my issue I guess is that I just want to do brain stuff in a clinical setting and do research. My main passion is neuroscience, but just getting a PhD in it doesn't seem like a good idea with the current job market, it's hyper competitive, and I like the idea of working with people individually to help them a lot more than purely research. If I had to choose between the two I'd say physician just because of the pay, and because I don't think I'd enjoy being a psychologist without any neuro/bio connection, but I think I'd also enjoy doing neuropsychology a lot.

 

[WisNeuro]

I can honestly say I've never wanted to be a neurologist. Even the pay isn't a big issue, just have some IME work in the mix, of which you are particularly well suited for as a neuropsychologist.

 

[Sanman]

That's a good way to think about it actually. That's honestly part of my issue I guess is that I just want to do brain stuff in a clinical setting and do research. My main passion is neuroscience, but just getting a PhD in it doesn't seem like a good idea with the current job market, it's hyper competitive, and I like the idea of working with people individually to help them a lot more than purely research. If I had to choose between the two I'd say physician just because of the pay, and because I don't think I'd enjoy being a psychologist without any neuro/bio connection, but I think I'd also enjoy doing neuropsychology a lot.

As a neuroscience major from way back, I think you need to narrow down how you want to do "brain stuff" day to day. I am a geropsychologist and spend a lot my time talking to families of dementia patients about how to care for them. That is how I involve my self with brain stuff. You can be a neurologist, neurosurgeon, neuropharmacologist, a neuropsychopharmacologist. neuropsychologist, etc. Start including the spinal cord, rehabilitation, and geriatrics and the list can get even larger. First thing you may want to decide on is whether you want to focus on research or clinical work more and what area of work interests you.

 

[WisNeuro]

If you want to do research, PhD is the way to go. I've done projects with Neurology before. Having to spend about an hour explaining why we needed to do pair-wise corrections, even though they pushed our results out of p<.05, with immense pushback was fairly telling. Also, having to spend a lot of time explaining that wadas test laterality, not level of cognitive functioning multiple times. You can get extra research training in teh MD path, but most are clueless beyond basic stats.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I agree with those above--it sounds like you may need to take some time to narrow down a bit what you actually want to do day-to-day. Or you may already know, and if you can provide us more information on that, we may be able to help narrow things down a bit.

I personally have never regretted not becoming a neurologist (assuming the opportunity would've been there to begin with).

If you have a strong neuroscience interest but don't want to exclusively go the neuroscience PhD route, you could always try for MD/PhD, with the PhD in neuroscience or something similar. Or you could go MD/DO and add in a fellowship or two related to research and other areas.

 

[szymk1sm]

I've never had a strong desire to be a neurologist, but if I were to go back and choose that path knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd be happy as a general neurologist and would be more interested in pursuing behavioral neurology.

 

[PsyDr]

1) PhDs in neuropsychology haven't been offered since about 2004.
2) If someone is considering investing 5-9 years of their life, in the hopes of entering a career, maybe that person should invest an afternoon's worth of effort in familiarizing themselves with the basic career path. Not for some grumpy poster. But for themselves.
3) Kinda weird that a poster asked a similar question in psychiatry, and then disappeared a month before OP's account was created.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

There's a weird assumption at play here in this post.

 

[fellwynd2]

I agree with those above--it sounds like you may need to take some time to narrow down a bit what you actually want to do day-to-day. Or you may already know, and if you can provide us more information on that, we may be able to help narrow things down a bit.

I personally have never regretted not becoming a neurologist (assuming the opportunity would've been there to begin with).

If you have a strong neuroscience interest but don't want to go the neuroscience Ph.D. route, you could always try for MD/PhD.

My ideal day to day would look something like this:
Get to work relatively early, read patient reports
See patients until lunch (late), talk to them about test results (cognitive measures, MRI, EKG, psychometrics) and what exactly is going on inside their head (the basolateral blah blah blah is interacting with the whoseewhat...) or doing new patient intake, asking about their issues and figuring out how to help them. (I'd like to do CBT with people or at least see them for longer than 15 minutes, but I don't think either profession allows for that anymore.)
Come back from lunch, go into lab.
Do research things (changes day to day, so examples below)
I'm interested in the neurological bases of mental health disorders, neurodegenerative diseases, memory in general, neuroplasticity, and immortalit- I mean uhh longevity. So I would want to go through a 3 step process: 1. Look at a particular potential system/what it could be doing to cause thing 2. Formulate and implement an experimental treatment with a team. 3. Look at results, then either write it up, change it and try again, or discard it entirely.
Go home and vibe

I feel like the two halves would feed into eachother, my research would help me in assisting patients, and my seeing patients would help me in my research. I know an MD/PhD would be ideal for this, but those programs are incredibly competitive, and few and far between. I would not be competitive for those programs without taking a good chunk of my twenties to improve myself.

 

[fellwynd2]

1) PhDs in neuropsychology haven't been offered since about 2004.
2) If someone is considering investing 5-9 years of their life, in the hopes of entering a career, maybe that person should invest an afternoon's worth of effort in familiarizing themselves with the basic career path. Not for some grumpy poster. But for themselves.
3) Kinda weird that a poster asked a similar question in psychiatry, and then disappeared a month before OP's account was created.

1. Yeah but neuropsychology is a career path that you can go on
2. What? I understand what I'm getting into, I am just having difficulty deciding between my options.
3. Idk what to tell you :/

 

[fellwynd2]

There's a weird assumption at play here in this post.

Yeah I thought it might come off that way, but that's the thought that's been plaguing my head, likely due to family drilling it into my head that going into psychology is a bad idea and that going into med school is the best route to success. Logically I know it's not true, but emotionally I think it's still ringing around in my head.

 

[Sanman]

1) PhDs in neuropsychology haven't been offered since about 2004.
2) If someone is considering investing 5-9 years of their life, in the hopes of entering a career, maybe that person should invest an afternoon's worth of effort in familiarizing themselves with the basic career path. Not for some grumpy poster. But for themselves.
3) Kinda weird that a poster asked a similar question in psychiatry, and then disappeared a month before OP's account was created.

Completely pointless side fact, but CUNY Queens college had a neuropsych PhD program well after that and did not transition to an accredited Clinical psych program until 2014. They also had very long graduation times (~8 years) back when I applied in the stone age (circa 2005).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

My ideal day to day would look something like this:
Get to work relatively early, read patient reports
See patients until lunch (late), talk to them about test results (cognitive measures, MRI, EKG, psychometrics) and what exactly is going on inside their head (the basolateral blah blah blah is interacting with the whoseewhat...) or doing new patient intake, asking about their issues and figuring out how to help them. (I'd like to do CBT with people or at least see them for longer than 15 minutes, but I don't think either profession allows for that anymore.)
Come back from lunch, go into lab.
Do research things (changes day to day, so examples below)
I'm interested in the neurological bases of mental health disorders, neurodegenerative diseases, memory in general, neuroplasticity, and immortalit- I mean uhh longevity. So I would want to go through a 3 step process: 1. Look at a particular potential system/what it could be doing to cause thing 2. Formulate and implement an experimental treatment with a team. 3. Look at results, then either write it up, change it and try again, or discard it entirely.
Go home and vibe

I feel like the two halves would feed into eachother, my research would help me in assisting patients, and my seeing patients would help me in my research. I know an MD/PhD would be ideal for this, but those programs are incredibly competitive, and few and far between. I would not be competitive for those programs without taking a good chunk of my twenties to improve myself.

A bit scattered on my part, but here we go:

Unfortunately, I think the combination of the first and second halves of your day above is going to be difficult to pull off. Some folks do, but in general, the types of researchers conducting the types of studies you're referencing, particularly if they're the PI, are going to be doing that full-time (and then some). They may have a clinic day or half-day once a week, but the majority of their time will be spent leading research teams, securing grants, etc. You've also listed quite a few somewhat-disparate research interests. That's not a bad thing, but you'd likely need to narrow things down once you get further along (e.g., the bolded part is probably closer to psychiatry/neuropsychiatry or clinical psychology research than either neurology or neuropsychology, and is a huuuuuge field of study in and of itself). If you're wanting a truly 50/50 split like this, odds are it's going to be as a non-PI part of a larger team. That's tough to swing, because you have to find some way to pay for the 50% of your time that isn't clinical and that you aren't necessarily pulling in grant money yourself to cover. A 90/10 or 80/20 type split is probably more reasonable, and may involve a day or half-day a week spent on research activities.

When seeing patients as a neuropsychologist, you're not likely to be directly reviewing the MRI with most patients (you may reference it with the patient, and will almost certainly mention it in your report). You're even less likely to be reviewing an EEG or especially EKG (I honestly don't even know how many neurologists routinely do the latter). You also aren't likely to be the one ordering an MRI or EEG, although in some places you can, and you could certainly recommend it to the referring provider. You will likely explain the results of your testing to the patient (that day or at some point in the future), but not typically in the way you've described. The level of detail and type of thinking you've listed may be helpful for you in your conceptualization, but in most instances, what patients (and most referring providers) care about is: 1) is something wrong, 2) what is it, and 3) what can I do about it.

As a neuropsychologist, if you're doing your own testing, you're probably going to see one, maybe two people/day for evaluation. And that's full-time. You may see more if you have a psychometrist. You might see another couple for an intake interview (if you do those separately) or feedback appointment. Any neuropsychologist worth their salt should be able to perform basic CBT or something similar; some neuropsychologists keep a small panel of therapy patients, some don't. Some also provide cognitive rehabilitation.

All in all, with what you've described, it sounds like neurology might be the better fit. As a neurologist, I suspect it would be pretty easy to be brought in to ongoing research projects (this is pretty easy as a neuropsychologist as well, mind you). You're also more likely to be seeing multiple patients per day before lunch, to be ordering MRIs and EEGs (and all sorts of other common and esoteric labs), and to be combining all of that information into ongoing follow-up with a patient. You will not be providing CBT, and you also probably won't be conducting in-depth cognitive testing; you can refer out for that.

 

[fellwynd2]

I've never had a strong desire to be a neurologist, but if I were to go back and choose that path knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd be happy as a general neurologist and would be more interested in pursuing behavioral neurology.

A bit scattered on my part, but here we go:

Unfortunately, I think the combination of the first and second halves of your day above is going to be difficult to pull off. Some folks do, but in general, the types of researchers conducting the types of studies you're referencing, particularly if they're the PI, are going to be doing that full-time (and then some). They may have a clinic day or half-day once a week, but the majority of their time will be spent leading research teams, securing grants, etc. You've also listed quite a few somewhat-disparate research interests. That's not a bad thing, but you'd likely need to narrow things down once you get further along (e.g., the bolded part is probably closer to psychiatry/neuropsychiatry or clinical psychology research than either neurology or neuropsychology, and is a huuuuuge field of study in and of itself). If you're wanting a truly 50/50 split like this, odds are it's going to be as a non-PI part of a larger team. That's tough to swing, because you have to find some way to pay for the 50% of your time that isn't clinical and that you aren't necessarily pulling in grant money yourself to cover. A 90/10 or 80/20 type split is probably more reasonable, and may involve a day or half-day a week spent on research activities.

When seeing patients as a neuropsychologist, you're not likely to be directly reviewing the MRI with most patients (you may reference it with the patient, and will almost certainly mention it in your report). You're even less likely to be reviewing an EEG or especially EKG (I honestly don't even know how many neurologists routinely do the latter). You also aren't likely to be the one ordering an MRI or EEG, although in some places you can, and you could certainly recommend it to the referring provider. You will likely explain the results of your testing to the patient (that day or at some point in the future), but not typically in the way you've described. The level of detail and type of thinking you've listed may be helpful for you in your conceptualization, but in most instances, what patients (and most referring providers) care about is: 1) is something wrong, 2) what is it, and 3) what can I do about it.

As a neuropsychologist, if you're doing your own testing, you're probably going to see one, maybe two people/day for evaluation. And that's full-time. You may see more if you have a psychometrist. You might see another couple for an intake interview (if you do those separately) or feedback appointment. Any neuropsychologist worth their salt should be able to perform basic CBT or something similar; some neuropsychologists keep a small panel of therapy patients, some don't. Some also provide cognitive rehabilitation.

All in all, with what you've described, it sounds like neurology might be the better fit. As a neurologist, I suspect it would be pretty easy to be brought in to ongoing research projects (this is pretty easy as a neuropsychologist as well, mind you). You're also more likely to be seeing multiple patients per day before lunch, to be ordering MRIs and EEGs (and all sorts of other common and esoteric labs), and to be combining all of that information into ongoing follow-up with a patient. You will not be providing CBT, and you also probably won't be conducting in-depth cognitive testing; you can refer out for that.

Thank you so much for this detailed reply, I really appreciate it. I think that you've definitely pushed me in the direction of doing neurology, which I think is particularly off to me because I started college wanting to just be a normal clinical psychologist, and so not doing psychology just feels like a betrayal or something. I'm definitely going to keep your words in mind when I make decisions in the coming weeks.

 

[bcliff]

I was in a similar headspace near the beginning of undergrad and decided to go the PhD route when I realized I could do all the things I wanted to do professionally (e.g., research, clinical work, becoming a doctor) by pursuing a PhD while almost entirely avoiding student loan debt. I would 100% pursue this career path again knowing what I know now. Feel free to PM if you'd like to talk more about specific clinical and research interests.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Yeah I thought it might come off that way, but that's the thought that's been plaguing my head, likely due to family drilling it into my head that going into psychology is a bad idea and that going into med school is the best route to success. Logically I know it's not true, but emotionally I think it's still ringing around in my head.

Are you in my family? Sounds like we might be related...

Good luck with the decision.

 

[fellwynd2]

Are you in my family? Sounds like we might be related...

Good luck with the decision.

Glad I'm not alone! Have you felt happy about the direction you took? Would you do an MD if you started all over?

 

[WisNeuro]

N of 1, but the MD in my household would not be an MD if they could do it all again. They wouldn't be a PhD either, but that's a different story.

 

[PsyDr]

1. Yeah but neuropsychology is a career path that you can go on
2. What? I understand what I'm getting into, I am just having difficulty deciding between my options.
3. Idk what to tell you :/

Hilarious. Ask a question. Tell someone you know more about their profession. Promise me you'll try this on your ortho rotation.

N of 1, but the MD in my household would not be an MD if they could do it all again. They wouldn't be a PhD either, but that's a different story.

 

[Sanman]

Hilarious. Ask a question. Tell someone you know more about their profession. Promise me you'll try this on your ortho rotation.

Greatest commentating team in sports entertainment history

 

[AcronymAllergy]

As an added recommendation, if you haven't yet spoken with some practicing neurologists and neuropsychologists to get a feel for what they do every day, I'd highly recommend it. Neurologists, for example, see dementia and other cognitive disorder cases, but many of them also typically see loooots of other stuff like headaches (so many headaches), peripheral nerve diseases, seizures, etc. Some/much of this will of course depend on where you work and whether or not you further specialize via fellowship (e.g., neurocritical care, epilepsy, movement disorders, etc.).

 

[shevchenko277]

I think it’s kinda hard to compare both since there’s no guarantee of matching in Neurology if one goes the MD/DO route. It’s similar to asking an Optometrist if they regret not becoming an Ophthalmologist instead. However, the wider scope of practice for medical doctors are always a plus if you’re willing to sacrifice the time it takes to be a physician.

 

[bcliff]

I think it’s kinda hard to compare both since there’s no guarantee of matching in Neurology if one goes the MD/DO route. It’s similar to asking an Optometrist if they regret not becoming an Ophthalmologist instead. However, the wider scope of practice for medical doctors are always a plus if you’re willing to sacrifice the time it takes to be a physician.

Well... I think the time to independent practice is often comparable for both fields (i.e., 4-6 years of PhD/PsyD + 1 year of internship + 2 years of postdoc vs. 4 years of MD/DO + ~3-5 years of residency). Becoming a PhD/PsyD with minimal debt and six figure ($100-200k/yr) earning potential was more appealing to me than becoming an MD/DO with high debt despite better earning potential ($200-300k/yr). Plus I liked the fact that I could get solid research training concurrent to my clinical training, without the significantly longer time required for MSTP MD/PhD training (i.e., ~6-8 years + residency).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I think it’s kinda hard to compare both since there’s no guarantee of matching in Neurology if one goes the MD/DO route. It’s similar to asking an Optometrist if they regret not becoming an Ophthalmologist instead. However, the wider scope of practice for medical doctors are always a plus if you’re willing to sacrifice the time it takes to be a physician.

Agreed RE: the comparison being problematic in that way. There's no guarantee a neuropsychologist would've gotten into med school (although might've had an above average shot), and there's no guarantee a neurologist would've gotten into grad school (although again, might've had an above average shot).

I did want to clarify the time component. All things considered, the training length isn't substantively different unless you start tacking on neurology fellowships: 4 years medical school + 4 years internship/residency vs. ~5 years graduate school + 1 year internship + 2 years fellowship.

Cliff notes (are those still a thing?): Don't go the neuropsychology route if a significant reason for doing so is to spend less time in training or because you suspect it's easier to get in.

 

[WisNeuro]

Well... I think the time to independent practice is often comparable for both fields (i.e., 4-6 years of PhD/PsyD + 1 year of internship + 2 years of postdoc vs. 4 years of MD/DO + ~3-5 years of residency). Becoming a PhD/PsyD with minimal debt and six figure ($100-200k/yr) earning potential was more appealing to me than becoming an MD/DO with high debt despite better earning potential ($200-300k/yr). Plus I liked the fact that I could get solid research training concurrent to my clinical training, without the significantly longer time required for MSTP MD/PhD training (i.e., ~6-8 years + residency).

The ceiling of that earning potential is quite low. Particularly if you're mixing in some IME work.

 

[bcliff]

The ceiling of that earning potential is quite low. Particularly if you're mixing in some IME work.

I agree, but I wanted to err on the more conservative side.

 

[WisNeuro]

I agree, but I wanted to err on the more conservative side.

Maybe if we're only working half-time that range would work

 

[fellwynd2]

Hilarious. Ask a question. Tell someone you know more about their profession. Promise me you'll try this on your ortho rotation.

Where did I say I knew more about it then you? What did I say that was grossly incorrect? I guess it's because I initially said PhD in neuropscyhology, which I guess is understandable, but I meant it as a shorthand for the whole process. Besides I was asking about the endgoal, not the process. I said "I understand what I'm getting into, I am just having difficulty deciding between my options." You said I hadn't done any research on my own, and I told you I had. I don't understand how you made the jump from me asking practicing neuropsychologists about their careers to me having absolutely 0 knowledge on the topic. Is it not just like: Do a phd in clinical psychology, preferably in a program related to neuropsychology, then do a post doc/internship related to it, and take the official certification test for neuropsychology. I realize there's probably some intricacies in there, but am I grossly incorrect? Please correct me if I am, I would genuinely be grateful.I really wish you'd be willing to actually give me constructive help or criticism instead of being snarky to someone a decade or more younger than you who is genuinely interested in your work, because I want to hear what you have to say, but whatever man.

 

[fellwynd2]

As an added recommendation, if you haven't yet spoken with some practicing neurologists and neuropsychologists to get a feel for what they do every day, I'd highly recommend it. Neurologists, for example, see dementia and other cognitive disorder cases, but many of them also typically see loooots of other stuff like headaches (so many headaches), peripheral nerve diseases, seizures, etc. Some/much of this will of course depend on where you work and whether or not you further specialize via fellowship (e.g., neurocritical care, epilepsy, movement disorders, etc.).

Yeah I've been able to email some questions to a neuropsychologist, but I have yet to find a neurologist I can get to talk to me. I'm taking a gap year before applying to anything, so I guess I can be reaching out more aggressively in that time. I didn't really think about subspecialization to be honest, I think I'm pretty open to anything at the moment, but I lean more toward cognitive stuff in my interests.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Hilarious. Ask a question. Tell someone you know more about their profession. Promise me you'll try this on your ortho rotation.

You've seemed a little over sensitive lately and easily triggered by undergrads asking reasonable questions and making (appropriately) naïve statements. Everything ok?

 

[fellwynd2]

You've seemed a little over sensitive lately and easily triggered by undergrads asking reasonable questions and making (appropriately) naïve statements. Everything ok?

Okay I'm glad you sensed it too, I was thinking maybe I was overreacting lol.

 

[fellwynd2]

Agreed RE: the comparison being problematic in that way. There's no guarantee a neuropsychologist would've gotten into med school (although might've had an above average shot), and there's no guarantee a neurologist would've gotten into grad school (although again, might've had an above average shot).

I did want to clarify the time component. All things considered, the training length isn't substantively different unless you start tacking on neurology fellowships: 4 years medical school + 4 years internship/residency vs. ~5 years graduate school + 1 year internship + 2 years fellowship.

Cliff notes (are those still a thing?): Don't go the neuropsychology route if a significant reason for doing so is to spend less time in training or because you suspect it's easier to get in.

I'm glad you brought up the easier to get in thing, as that's also been a sticking point for me. Because of the stat inflation in med school admissions it'd probably mean I need to take a few extra years off to have a good chance of getting in, but I also understand that grad schools are having a similar issue if not to the same degree. Please don't take this as rude, because I know it's not the reason you did it, but is it not easier to get into grad school than med school? Or are they more comparable than I had thought?

 

[Sanman]

I'm glad you brought up the easier to get in thing, as that's also been a sticking point for me. Because of the stat inflation in med school admissions it'd probably mean I need to take a few extra years off to have a good chance of getting in, but I also understand that grad schools are having a similar issue if not to the same degree. Please don't take this as rude, because I know it's not the reason you did it, but is it not easier to get into grad school than med school? Or are they more comparable than I had thought?

Things to consider regarding admissions. Med school stats seem worse than they actually are because most any med school will get you to the same place for similar cost. So going to any U.S. med school is fine. Clinical psych program averages might seem easier because expensive pay your own way programs are less competitive than quality funded/free programs. In reality, the grades needed are similar if limit yourself to quality/affordable grad programs, but in different required course work.

 

[WisNeuro]

Things to consider regarding admissions. Med school stats seem worse than they actually are because most any med school will get you to the same place for similar cost. So going to any U.S. med school is fine. Clinical psych program averages might seem easier because expensive pay your own way programs are less competitive than quality funded/free programs. In reality, the grades needed are similar if limit yourself to quality/affordable grad programs, but in different required course work.

Indeed, getting into quality, fully-funded clinical psych programs is statistically more difficult than getting into a med school.

 

[Sanman]

Indeed, getting into quality, fully-funded clinical psych programs is statistically more difficult than getting into a med school.

I'd call it a bit of a wash given that some schools feel the need to make pre-med classes more difficult just to wash people out and I saw less of that in psych. Part of the reason I switched to psych was that I was able to be more involved in higher level stuff in undergrad and avoid the rather pointless hoop jumping in pre-med classes. I felt a lot less like cattle being herded to the slaughter. May have just been my university though.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm glad you brought up the easier to get in thing, as that's also been a sticking point for me. Because of the stat inflation in med school admissions it'd probably mean I need to take a few extra years off to have a good chance of getting in, but I also understand that grad schools are having a similar issue if not to the same degree. Please don't take this as rude, because I know it's not the reason you did it, but is it not easier to get into grad school than med school? Or are they more comparable than I had thought?

As others have already mentioned, it kind of depends on where you're looking and what you're willing to accept. Just like medical school admissions would probably (I'm making a minimally-educated guess) seem to improve/appear less competitive if Caribbean schools' numbers were pooled with those of U.S. schools, doctoral programs in clinical/counseling/school psychology appear (and objectively are) less competitive if you include high-cost programs with large class sizes. If looking solely at fully-funded programs, I believe the acceptance rate is somewhere around maybe 5%? Overall, I'd agree with Sanman above in that it's probably a wash.

The two paths also require different types of preparation. Med school has all its traditional med school factors (e.g., extracurriculars, volunteer hours, shadowing, grades, MCAT). Grad school also has its own traditional factors (grades still, GRE, research experience, fit with potential advisor).

 

[WisNeuro]

I'd call it a bit of a wash given that some schools feel the need to make pre-med classes more difficult just to wash people out and I saw less of that in psych. Part of the reason I switched to psych was that I was able to be more involved in higher level stuff in undergrad and avoid the rather pointless hoop jumping in pre-med classes. I felt a lot less like cattle being herded to the slaughter. May have just been my university though.

Meh, undergrad coursework is the easy part. It's the volunteer lab time and such that sucks up a lot of time and resources for clinical psych. I'm pretty sure I could have spent far less time to be competitive for med school.

 

[Sanman]

Meh, undergrad coursework is the easy part. It's the volunteer lab time and such that sucks up a lot of time and resources for clinical psych. I'm pretty sure I could have spent far less time to be competitive for med school.

Oh, I agree. However, the psych lab work was interesting, IME, and had to do with real research in real labs. As a pre-med I was spending 6-9pm every Thursday with 40 other people repeating basic chemistry experiments for a disgruntled TA/grad student that did not want to be there. Made me want to bang my head against wall. The only positive was I had a cute lab partner that I briefly went out with Freshman year.

 

[bcliff]

Meh, undergrad coursework is the easy part. It's the volunteer lab time and such that sucks up a lot of time and resources for clinical psych. I'm pretty sure I could have spent far less time to be competitive for med school.

I spent three years between undergrad and PhD working full time in a lab, then applied to around a dozen PhD programs and still only ended up with one PhD admission offer (one was all I needed though!). I only applied to fully funded programs and never considered attending a program that was not fully funded. My cohort was comprised of 8 students out of a total applicant pool of ~180 (~4%).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Meh, undergrad coursework is the easy part. It's the volunteer lab time and such that sucks up a lot of time and resources for clinical psych. I'm pretty sure I could have spent far less time to be competitive for med school.

Yep. Although to be fair, med school applicants typically have to complete pretty high numbers of volunteer, shadowing, extracurricular, and other related activity hours to be competitive. I'm too mentally lazy to do the average calculations, but it's probably pretty similar to a couple years' worth of volunteer lab work.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yep. Although to be fair, med school applicants typically have to complete pretty high numbers of volunteer, shadowing, extracurricular, and other related activity hours to be competitive. I'm too mentally lazy to do the average calculations, but it's probably pretty similar to a couple years' worth of volunteer lab work.

True, but for me at least, volunteer hours would have been far easier than learning multiple programming languages and writing up DOS batch files for processing.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

True, but for me at least, volunteer hours would have been far easier than learning multiple programming languages and writing up DOS batch files for processing.

You haven't really lived if you've never edited an autoexec.bat or config.sys file to free up that last bit of RAM you need to run DOOM.

 

[shevchenko277]

Yep. Although to be fair, med school applicants typically have to complete pretty high numbers of volunteer, shadowing, extracurricular, and other related activity hours to be competitive. I'm too mentally lazy to do the average calculations, but it's probably pretty similar to a couple years' worth of volunteer lab work.

I agree with the previous points that the overall length of training are similar for both occupations and that obtaining the necessary lab time etc. to be competitive for a fully funded Psychology program would be far harder than getting volunteering or shadowing hours for med school. However, the GRE pales in comparison to the MCAT and despite the fact that other health professions have long, rigorous board exams including my own, I don’t think it’s fair to compare it to the ones that an MD/DO takes. I think the both routes are challenging in different ways but being in a fully funded Psychology program with great prospects and not saddled with debt does seem like a pretty sweet deal.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I agree with the previous points that the overall length of training are similar for both occupations and that obtaining the necessary lab time etc. to be competitive for a fully funded Psychology program would be far harder than getting volunteering or shadowing hours for med school. However, the GRE pales in comparison to the MCAT and despite the fact that other health professions have long, rigorous board exams including my own, I don’t think it’s fair to compare it to the ones that an MD/DO takes. I think the both routes are challenging in different ways but being in a fully funded Psychology program with great prospects and not saddled with debt does seem like a pretty sweet deal.

Agree entirely on MCAT vs. GRE. Also agreed in comparing, say, the STEP exams to the psychology equivalent (EPPP). I can't really say how psychology specialty boarding compares to medicine, although I know the former is somewhat patterned after the latter.

Needless to say, at the end of the day, either training path is pretty long and relatively arduous. But plenty of folks enjoy (or at least tolerate) both training paths and end up with careers they also enjoy. A lot of your happiness will simply depend on your own personal interests, your strengths/weaknesses, and which training path and occupation have "unsavory" aspects you can better tolerate. And of course a whole host of stuff outside work.

 

[PsyDr]

You've seemed a little over sensitive lately and easily triggered by undergrads asking reasonable questions and making (appropriately) naïve statements. Everything ok?

I'm fine. In both cases, I came down hard on someone after they transitioned from asking about how the profession works, to telling how the profession works. There are some slight differences, though.

 

[fellwynd2]

I'm fine. In both cases, I came down hard on someone after they transitioned from asking about how the profession works, to telling how the profession works. There are some slight differences, though.

I still don’t think I ever did that, and I never actually asked how the profession works, I just wanted answers from people who are already in the profession. (maybe because I said it’s still a career path you can go on? I didn’t mean that to be snarky if so, I was just stating that because I think we can both agree that neuropsychologist is an actual thing that you can become even without a PhD specific to it, and I was clarifying that’s what I wanted to ask about.) but I’ll drop it now either way. Have a great life!

 

[pmg065423]

Question for neuropsychs: what is a model for maximizing income as a neuropsychologist?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The most common way to increase your income is to do forensic work. Things like IMEs and expert testimony. Doing some clinic work is usually recommended so you don't just look like a hired gun.