To PhD, or not to PhD?

[IstudyKRAB]

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Hello everyone,

I am a new member to these forums and I must say I am pretty impressed with the size and organization of these boards. I am posting in hopes that someone can give me some insight and clarity, possibly pointing me in the right direction.

I am about to graduate in the Fall of '08. For the past 4.5 years I have worked hard towards a B.S. in Microbiology/Biotechnology with honors. I have honors because I competed an Honors Thesis program where I did bioinformatics research on Transcriptional Regulation mediated by KRAB-ZFP repressors for two semesters. I am about to graduate with ~3.4-3.5 cumulative GPA (Science GPA is ~3.6-3.7).

Also, I have been working with a periodontist assisting surgery for over a year and a half now. I have accumulated around 800 hours of surgical experience, setting up surgery, breaking down surgery, etc.

I was about to take the DAT this summer and hopefully apply by the end of this year sometime, but recently, my thesis advisor has offered me a 3-year PhD program and he wants me to begin in the Spring '09 right after I graduate.

So now, as you can imagine, I am completely blurred once again, with no idea of what to do. Is a PhD something that will open doors for me in the Dental profession in the future? Would I be better off doing a Master's w/ Thesis, which will take less time, if I plan to only use it to get into professional school? Will a PhD give me a nice lead with matriculation into Dental school? Residencies?

I know I enjoy surgery. I also know I enjoy research. Lastly, I know that with all this schooling, I want to enjoy the fruits of my labor with a well-paying job. Doing this PhD will also give me an opportunity to complete the project that I started in my Honors Thesis program.

Thoughts?

 

[DrReo]

If your ultimate goal is to become a dentist, you won't use it in your daily practice. I have heard of masters thesis students, in medical school, gaining residancy at large academic, research orientated universities. However, you can accomplish the same thing going the shorter route, dental school. If you want to pursue a research degree, why not DDS/PhD? University of Alabama advertises their's as a 6-7 yr.

 

[IstudyKRAB]

If your ultimate goal is to become a dentist, you won't use it in your daily practice. I have heard of masters thesis students, in medical school, gaining residancy at large academic, research orientated universities. However, you can accomplish the same thing going the shorter route, dental school. If you want to pursue a research degree, why not DDS/PhD? University of Alabama advertises their's as a 6-7 yr.

To be honest I never considered a PhD degree.

The past two years have been dental oriented for me. This opportunity literally came out of nowhere and now I am stuck wondering if I should really pass up this opportunity. I wouldn't want to do a PhD anywhere else because I would want to finish a project that I have been working on previously.

My main question is will this help me get into a good dental school and ultimately help me get a residency of my choice?

 

[qwerty86]

"will phd give me lead in getting into dental school" Having PHd is sorta being over qualified

 

[IstudyKRAB]

"will phd give me lead in getting into dental school" Having PHd is sorta being over qualified

So are you saying that a PhD will hinder my dental opportunities?

 

[dackmonkey]

So are you saying that a PhD will hinder my dental opportunities?

i doubt that's what he meant. it simply means it would be overkill if dentistry is your ultimate goal.

 

[DrReo]

My orthodontist did a PhD, then realized that dentistry was his direction...

 

[IstudyKRAB]

i doubt that's what he meant. it simply means it would be overkill if dentistry is your ultimate goal.

Well to be honest I kinda like the research stuff too. I mean the only lab experience I have are my Biotech Labs and some D.I.S. credits but I enjoyed those way more than anything else in college. Also, my honors thesis research was all bioinformatics. Hours and hours of searching genes online and organizing info into my database. But as boring as it was I was fascinated by it and could talk your head off about the work that I was doing.

Who knows I may want to pursue research after those long years and a good job offer. I definitely don't want to limit my education and am willing to be a student for as long as I need to. Put it this way, if I do end up in dentisty, I definitely wont look back and regret getting a PhD. Also, an opportunity to get a PhD without first getting a Master's is something I don't want to pass up. I'll be 25 with a PhD. I feel like that leaves plenty of time to further my education in anything after that.

So after hearing all that, what are your thoughts?

 

[ProZackMI]

A PhD is a research degree; it's designed for that purpose only. If you want to be a practicing dentist, a PhD is completely useless and overkill. Even if your doc program is fully-funded, why bother wasting 3 years of your life? How old are you? Remember, dental school = 4 years plus whatever your residency, if any, will be. How old will you be when you're done?

My advice, if you wish to practice, get your DDS, not your PhD. If you wish to be an academic and do research, then maybe...but you can always do it AFTER you've been a practicing dentist, making big $$$ for several years.

Research = PhD

Clinical practice = DDS

 

[IstudyKRAB]

My advice, if you wish to practice, get your DDS, not your PhD. If you wish to be an academic and do research, then maybe...but you can always do it AFTER you've been a practicing dentist, making big $$$ for several years.

Research = PhD

Clinical practice = DDS

That's the thing. If I go straight into dentistry, I know that'll be where I settle. I know that that only I way I will get a PhD on my belt is if I do it now because I simply wont go back to school once I start practicing. It's only 3 years, and I feel like I should just bang it out and get it over with.

 

[Dan3223]

It sounds like you've already made up your mind... just go with what makes you happy.

 

[IstudyKRAB]

It sounds like you've already made up your mind... just go with what makes you happy.

Yes, I sorta have...😕😀

I guess what I'm trying to find out is will the PhD help me get into a good school and a residency of my choice. Will it be worth the 3 years in that respect?

 

[jackbauer!]

3 year PhD? Are you positive your PI isn't just roping you in? Even with your previous research experience, getting out in 4 years sounds optimistic.

I agree with the others. If you want to be a clinician, apply to dental school now and get your DDS.

If you're really, really interested in research apply to a combined DDS/PhD program. At my school, the program is 7 years long and comes with a very, very nice financial package.

jb!🙂

 

[IstudyKRAB]

3 year PhD? Are you positive your PI isn't just roping you in? Even with your previous research experience, getting out in 4 years sounds optimistic.

I agree with the others. If you want to be a clinician, apply to dental school now and get your DDS.

If you're really, really interested in research apply to a combined DDS/PhD program. At my school, the program is 7 years long and comes with a very, very nice financial package.

jb!🙂

Well he said I could finish in 3 years if I hustle. But you are right, more than likely it'll take 4 years. I doubt my adviser is roping me in, since he has given me opportunity after opportunity since I was a junior. This program is pretty fair financially also. I believe they waive your tuition and also pay ~18k a year. The money doesn't matter tho. Like I said, I would only want to do the PhD at this school in the lab that I'm currently in, so I could finish the project that I've been working on.

 

[ProZackMI]

Well he said I could finish in 3 years if I hustle. But you are right, more than likely it'll take 4 years. I doubt my adviser is roping me in, since he has given me opportunity after opportunity since I was a junior. This program is pretty fair financially also. I believe they waive your tuition and also pay ~18k a year. The money doesn't matter tho. Like I said, I would only want to do the PhD at this school in the lab that I'm currently in, so I could finish the project that I've been working on.

Just FYI -- professional schools rarely look at previous graduate degrees in the admission process. I graduated from medical school (MD), but when I applied to law school, they ONLY looked at my undergrad grades and LSAT score, my MD and MS were not even considered.

Medical school is similar. A PhD might impress some on the admissions committee, but it will NOT help you gain admission in the long run. It might look good for a residency, but even then...your DDS grades and LOR will be weighed more than graduate degrees.

Do a combined DDS/PhD or go straight to DDS. A DDS is sufficient to do research in some areas too.

 

[IstudyKRAB]

Would a Master's w/ Thesis be a better choice for someone in my position?

 

[Kung Foo]

Krab,

You sound like an application for a DDS/PhD program in your post - and a perfect candidate for such a program. Don't take your advisor's offer. Take the DAT. Take the GRE if you have to. Get your toosh into a DSTP progrm. If you're worried about numbers, most are still a 3 year PhD, and they pay better than the grad school spot you were offered.

There's a huge market for dual degree clinician/scientists and you'll be able to stay in clincal practice and science when you're done.

I love science, and almost didn't apply to dental school - despite years of planning - because of that. The dual degree track solved my dilemma, and now that I'm at the end of my program, I have a huge array of options.

You can still specialize (I plan to) and having a PhD makes a huge difference for perio (one of the few dental specialties that actually uses science to design and evaluate treatment)

Anyway, spend some time exploring your options. The most important thing to consider is where you want to be in 10 years - lifestyle, what you want your professional life to ultimately look like, and to do what you need to get yourself there.

Check out the programs at Minnesota, Ohio State and Michigan. They have decent websites, and are great programs.

http://www.dentistry.umn.edu/minncrest/

http://ctoc.osu.edu/DDSPhD.php

http://www.dent.umich.edu/ohsphd/

Good luck. Let me know if I can help.

 

[IstudyKRAB]

Kung foo, your post was great! Thank you so much for all the info.

One thing I didn't mention is that I am afraid to apply to dental school right now because I know too many people with good credentials that got rejected from a lot of schools. I really want to have a wide array of credentials before I even consider applying. Are the PhD/DDS positions as competitive as the rest?

 

[doc toothache]

Depending on where you plan to apply, your gpa may be adequate, however, without DAT scores it may be difficult to judge how competitive a candidate you will be. The invitation for a Ph.D. program should be a feather in your cap, and if you like research, there is no reason why you should not go that route. In a few years, you can still decide to pursue dentistry and a Ph.D. will most definitely be an asset. Contrary to popular opinion, with the exception of post docs, Ph.Ds do not do research. They do, however, come up with research ideas, conduct, supervise and hire those with B.S or M.S. degrees to do the work for them. Dual degrees are not mutually exclusive and you may be able to use both either in an academic or in a clinical setting.

 

[IstudyKRAB]

Depending on where you plan to apply, your gpa may be adequate, however, without DAT scores it may be difficult to judge how competitive a candidate you will be. The invitation for a Ph.D. program should be a feather in your cap, and if you like research, there is no reason why you should not go that route. In a few years, you can still decide to pursue dentistry and a Ph.D. will most definitely be an asset. Contrary to popular opinion, Ph.Ds do not do research. They do, however, come up with research ideas, conduct, supervise and hire those with B.S or M.S. degrees to do the work for them. Dual degrees are not mutual exclusive and you may be able to use both either in an academic or in a clinical setting.

Thanks for chiming in! It's a relief to hear from someone on the other side of the fence 😳

I would very much like to do a PhD but with all these people telling me that its a waste of time, I get a bit nervous that they are right. You say the invitation for a PhD is a feather in my cap. Do you mean I can put the invite on my dental application? Would something like that carry any weight? And lastly, would a PhD carry more weight than a MS in the application/residency aspect?

 

[ucla2134]

Hello everyone,

I am a new member to these forums and I must say I am pretty impressed with the size and organization of these boards. I am posting in hopes that someone can give me some insight and clarity, possibly pointing me in the right direction.

I am about to graduate in the Fall of '08. For the past 4.5 years I have worked hard towards a B.S. in Microbiology/Biotechnology with honors. I have honors because I competed an Honors Thesis program where I did bioinformatics research on Transcriptional Regulation mediated by KRAB-ZFP repressors for two semesters. I am about to graduate with ~3.4-3.5 cumulative GPA (Science GPA is ~3.6-3.7).

Also, I have been working with a periodontist assisting surgery for over a year and a half now. I have accumulated around 800 hours of surgical experience, setting up surgery, breaking down surgery, etc.

I was about to take the DAT this summer and hopefully apply by the end of this year sometime, but recently, my thesis advisor has offered me a 3-year PhD program and he wants me to begin in the Spring '09 right after I graduate.

So now, as you can imagine, I am completely blurred once again, with no idea of what to do. Is a PhD something that will open doors for me in the Dental profession in the future? Would I be better off doing a Master's w/ Thesis, which will take less time, if I plan to only use it to get into professional school? Will a PhD give me a nice lead with matriculation into Dental school? Residencies?

I know I enjoy surgery. I also know I enjoy research. Lastly, I know that with all this schooling, I want to enjoy the fruits of my labor with a well-paying job. Doing this PhD will also give me an opportunity to complete the project that I started in my Honors Thesis program.

Thoughts?

Hi!
I am in kinda similar situation like you. I research for almost 2 years and the guy told me he won't grant me publication and personal statement if i did not go to phd route
At first, i am confused like you but after that many sdners gave me good advice not going to that route unless you want to.
I think phd is having advantage to dental route. But your GPA is competitive and if you waste 3 years of your life doing something that you have no passion for it, then i would say NO

 

[Shunwei]

Just FYI -- professional schools rarely look at previous graduate degrees in the admission process. I graduated from medical school (MD), but when I applied to law school, they ONLY looked at my undergrad grades and LSAT score, my MD and MS were not even considered.

Medical school is similar. A PhD might impress some on the admissions committee, but it will NOT help you gain admission in the long run. It might look good for a residency, but even then...your DDS grades and LOR will be weighed more than graduate degrees.

Do a combined DDS/PhD or go straight to DDS. A DDS is sufficient to do research in some areas too.

This is probably the most sensible post in this thread. To trade 3-4 years of life for a Ph.D. that might have a slight influence in residency qualifications is a very dubious trade-off. And yes, there are dental scientists that work just as well as DDS/PhD in research. Rather than thinking about whether a PhD looks good for you in the long-term, the real question is what you really want to do with the PhD--and from what I have read I don't get the impression that you are not really sure what you want, long-term. It is best to get this question ironed out first, and everything else should fall in place. And I don't particularly like the mindset of mixing clinic with research--you might end up doing well at neither or at least not doing as much as you'd like in either one.

 

[qwerty86]

Nah, I meant the opposite. PHD wont hinder you from getting in. You will easily get in and possibly into a great school.

 

[IstudyKRAB]

Well I don't really know exactly what will happen in the future... but I'd be foolish to not have an open mind and end up closing doors for myself.

At this point in my life I know I like research. I also know I like dentistry. But I am about to graduate from a school that's growing very big in research and I'm already in a lab that does precisely the work that I would want to do. I also have an adviser that's pushing my in that direction, with his full support, to begin lab work on a project that I slaved over for two semesters with nothing but bioinformatics work. If I don't finish my project, someone else will and all my work would have been wasted, in a way.

I know I can always go back and do dental school and that's why I want to take the research to the very top of the ladder and get the degree i deserve before I move on to the professional scene. I know research probably isn't what I want to do forever but I like it enough to do it happily for the next 3-4 years and earn a PhD in a subject that I thoroughly enjoy.

I emailed a couple schools... no help as usual. 😎

 

[IstudyKRAB]

And another thing, I dont want my undergraduate credits/prerequisites/credentials to become outdated by the time i get out of this PhD program 4 years later. Is this something I have to worry about?

 

[doc toothache]

Thanks for chiming in! It's a relief to hear from someone on the other side of the fence 😳

I would very much like to do a PhD but with all these people telling me that its a waste of time, I get a bit nervous that they are right. You say the invitation for a PhD is a feather in my cap. Do you mean I can put the invite on my dental application? Would something like that carry any weight? And lastly, would a PhD carry more weight than a MS in the application/residency aspect?

And another thing, I dont want my undergraduate credits/prerequisites/credentials to become outdated by the time i get out of this PhD program 4 years later. Is this something I have to worry about?

Ok. This is going to take longer than expected. It appears that feather comment quickly rose to the head. The comment was meant to indicate that apparently your professor thinks you are qualified to be pursue a Ph.D. route. You can put anything you want on your ps, but it is unlikely it will impress anyone since near misses do not count. A Ph.D. will carry more weight than an M.S. provided we are looking at comparable gpa and dat scores, but only at the stage in applying to ds. Neither will have much bearing on acceptance to a residency. The criteria for acceptance to specialty program include ds gpa (class standing) and NBDE scores. Acting on advice for a Ph.D. route on a pre-professional forum caries risks. Before making a decision on whatever advice you may receive you may want to weigh the source of the opinions.

As for outdated credentials, in all likelihood it will not be a problem, especially if you take your DAT say one year before applying.

Some may have a clear picture of the future and can pinpoint minute details to a T. They can tell you exactly what they will be doing in 15 years to the day. Others are a little slower. For some dentistry does not appear on the radar screen even in the late stages of college. Life is dynamic and we make adjustments as we move along.

 

[IstudyKRAB]

I realize that my dental school grades will mostly predict which residencies I get into...but I was more thinking along the lines that I will have the necessary grades, and when it comes down to me and a couple others who have done just as well, will a PhD hold any ground or be simply ignored?

Also, I emailed UCLA and they replied saying the MS and PhD degrees are weighed equally by the committee.

Thanks to all for your insight, you've helped me out 👍 I think I'm leaning towards the PhD. I just love the geeky science stuff too much and I want to conquer this beast before I move to a professional school.

 

[doc toothache]

I realize that my dental school grades will mostly predict which residencies I get into...but I was more thinking along the lines that I will have the necessary grades, and when it comes down to me and a couple others who have done just as well, will a PhD hold any ground or be simply ignored?

Also, I emailed UCLA and they replied saying the MS and PhD degrees are weighed equally by the committee.

Thanks to all for your insight, you've helped me out 👍 I think I'm leaning towards the PhD. I just love the geeky science stuff too much and I want to conquer this beast before I move to a professional school.

Specialty programs will undoubtedly interpret the importance of an M.S. or Ph.D. differently. Some may even wonder, what you plan to do once you are done with the residency. You really didn't expect UCLA to give you a different answer, especially one in writing? At any rate, you will have roughly 7 years to ponder that question.

 

[IstudyKRAB]

So i've decided I'm going to apply to dental school after all. It' pretty obvious I'm all over the place on this subject but I think it would be best to apply to grad school and dental school.

Here's my question, should I ask my thesis adviser for a LOR? I know he really wants me to do this PhD but do you think it's possible for him to write a bad letter to sabotage me? I'm unsure because under different circumstances I think he would definitely write me an awesome letter... what do you all think?

 

[Shunwei]

So i've decided I'm going to apply to dental school after all. It' pretty obvious I'm all over the place on this subject but I think it would be best to apply to grad school and dental school.

Here's my question, should I ask my thesis adviser for a LOR? I know he really wants me to do this PhD but do you think it's possible for him to write a bad letter to sabotage me? I'm unsure because under different circumstances I think he would definitely write me an awesome letter... what do you all think?

Ask if you can see the letter. A lot of open-minded individuals would allow that.

 

[Immuno-guy]

September will mark the beginning of the 7th year of my Ph.D in immunology. I've worked hard and diligently. Several projects failed and those that succeeded have required significant interpretation and multiple repeats. I'm likely to defend my thesis in the next month prior to matriculation in fall at DS.

To think you could even come close to finishing in 3 years is preposterous. Combined DDS/PhD programs only manage to do this because they know people would never sign up if it was a 4+6 year combined course (realize the average science Ph.D in the US takes 6 years). Yes, it's still a Ph.D, but naturally it is not recognized the same way as a course that took twice as long by the scientific community (at least at first). The value of these courses comes from the possibility of having scientific experience and insight combined with clinical observations and trials. The few who have both degrees (by either route) offer a unique contribution that deserves to be highly revered.

I urge you to carefully consider the likely duration of this course and to consider the DDS/PhD courses. They are far more structured and concise with projects designed to be completed far more swiftly. After that you will have to prove your mettle in the scientific world - just as the rest of us will have to. Only you'll be 4 years younger and won't have a debt burden.

Your choice. Best of luck.

 

[1992Corolla]

I say go dental school right away. If the Phd and the MS are weighed equally then why do it? If it comes down to you and someone else then your interview should make you shiny.

There are so many things you can do in dental school to make yourself shine for post grad dental residencies.

If your ultimate goal is to become a DDS/DMD, then why take 3 year detours here and there to maybe give yourself a slight edge?

I say go straight to dental school.

 

[Shunwei]

September will mark the beginning of the 7th year of my Ph.D in immunology. I've worked hard and diligently. Several projects failed and those that succeeded have required significant interpretation and multiple repeats. I'm likely to defend my thesis in the next month prior to matriculation in fall at DS.

To think you could even come close to finishing in 3 years is preposterous. Combined DDS/PhD programs only manage to do this because they know people would never sign up if it was a 4+6 year combined course (realize the average science Ph.D in the US takes 6 years). Yes, it's still a Ph.D, but naturally it is not recognized the same way as a course that took twice as long by the scientific community (at least at first). The value of these courses comes from the possibility of having scientific experience and insight combined with clinical observations and trials. The few who have both degrees (by either route) offer a unique contribution that deserves to be highly revered.

I urge you to carefully consider the likely duration of this course and to consider the DDS/PhD courses. They are far more structured and concise with projects designed to be completed far more swiftly. After that you will have to prove your mettle in the scientific world - just as the rest of us will have to. Only you'll be 4 years younger and won't have a debt burden.

Your choice. Best of luck.

Actually, the average duration is more like 6 1/2 to seven years now (probably close to the latter).

 

[IstudyKRAB]

Ask if you can see the letter. A lot of open-minded individuals would allow that.

My school requires the letter to be sealed by the writer and sometimes even faxed directly to the pre-prof office. They are very keen on the student not being able to see their LOR's.

 

[IstudyKRAB]

Actually, the average duration is more like 6 1/2 to seven years now (probably close to the latter).

Yea after long thought... (its finals week too!).... i have decided this is not what I want to do. I wish science paid more and I would be all over it but unfortunately the cards don't fall in that deck.. I think I will apply to DS and GS this summer and if I don't get matriculated I will go for a MS-T for a couple years.

 

[Shunwei]

My school requires the letter to be sealed by the writer and sometimes even faxed directly to the pre-prof office. They are very keen on the student not being able to see their LOR's.

You are taking what I am saying too literally. I am not saying to look at the exact letter to be sent off, but just a copy of it from your advisor's computer. He can send it either as a file to you via email, or just print one out on a printer.

 

[IstudyKRAB]

You are taking what I am saying too literally. I am not saying to look at the exact letter to be sent off, but just a copy of it from your advisor's computer. He can send it either as a file to you via email, or just print one out on a printer.

Oh haha, I don't know, I'll ask him to see it but i doubt he'll show me. 🙁

 

[Kung Foo]

Krab - Are you kidding me? You expected an academic institution to reply to your email request for information in a single day? I'd be concerned after 3-4 weeks, frankly.

Listen to Immuno and Shunwei - they know what they're talking about with the PhD. Things rarely work out as you hope. A girl with whom I was on a lab rotation went to another lab because she was *promised* a 4 year PhD there (cell culture lab). Now, 6 years later, she's struggling to finish - and she started wth an MS in statistics. (Immuno: I feel your pain - if only I could have back that summer and those holidays wasted thanks to staph infections in the anmal colony...) It's incredibly easy for PIs to extend PhD students' tenure by adding "one more experiment" just to "finish things up" for a very long time. In my case, I was pulled out of the lab by force when I went back to the clinics - which is a benifit/bane of the dual deree thing.

Your undergrad research advisor owes you a LOR. It's a part of the deal for undergrad research students - even it's not talked about ahead of time. If he won't write you one, then that's excellent affirmation that you chose correctly by not staying in the lab.

Your research experience will help you to an extent during your dental school interviews - at the schools who care about that sort of thing. You're clearly knowledgable and enthusiastic about the project, and that will interview well.

Most people will give you a copy of the LOR. At very least, you should frame your request by asking: Will you be willing to write a positive recommendation letter for my dental school applicantion?

 

[SuperC]

Research = PhD

Clinical practice = DDS

Teaching/practice/research = DMD(DDS)/PhD

And by the way PhD Does NOT = research.... PhD = Player Hater Degree
-C

 

[Shunwei]

Teaching/practice/research = DMD(DDS)/PhD

And by the way PhD Does NOT = research.... PhD = Player Hater Degree
-C

Ha. . . . never heard of that one before. The most common joke among us when I was in grad school was that PhD = Phoney Doctor. 😀

 

[dr bojangles]

i'm throwing around idea of dmd/phd at my school (encouraged by my PI, and a director of the program). not to belittle the prestige of dual degree, but not having a phd won't hinder my interest in research, i can still pursue it with the dmd alone. it's seemingly a business decision for me, and the risk/investment of time to pursue both doctorates may not be as rewarding (personally, financially, etc.) as i previously thought. finishing my masters, and some pubs from my lab suits me fine.
phd = Plead for Handouts and Donations
dmd = Driver, More Dom Perignon

 

[t man]

If you have a massive ego, and enjoy dealing with other massive egos, then biomedical research is probably a great choice for you.

 

[MnBr63]

phd = Plead for Handouts and Donations
dmd = Driver, More Dom Perignon

I just laughed loudly in a quite building at that.

 

[Kung Foo]

my father's favorite:

PhD = post hole digger (this is an actual tool)

or you can go with the newly classic comic "Piled Higher and Deeper"