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To those who say that going to ivy league is not worth it b/c it is so expensive

Discussion in 'Pre-Dental' started by jjackson, Mar 13, 2007.

  1. jjackson

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    Hey everyone, I have a question to those who attack ivy leagues because they are not worth the money they charge... Why attack the school b/c of the cost?

    I have been accepted to six universities and have chosen to attend the ivy league from my list of choices. If I had been accepted to a much cheaper institute (saving $50,000 for example) I would have chosen the cheaper school, but in reality, after evaluating all the school, I found the ivy league to be on the lower end of the schools that accepted me. So put in another way, I chose the best NAME (which may translate to success) that my money would buy me. I researched all the PRIVATE dental schools nationwide, and that is about half the dental school out there, and found that the ivy's are on the lower to middle price range, they were not on the upper end like tufts, boston, nyu, usc....

    I also looked at the state schools that were out there, and was surprised to see that they were not much cheaper. If you are an out of state applicant, a lot of schools will not allow you to get the resident status, and even when you are a resident of some states, the in-state tuition is not much cheaper (for example UCLA, UCSF, MICH, UNLV...) than that of an ivy league (talking about 5-10 thousand a year when you include all the things that you add after the tuition). unless you are from missisipi or the texas schools (and probably a couple of other schools) you are not paying much cheaper than you are for an ivy league.

    so for those who do attack the ivy's, why? if you are paying the same money, or similar money, would you not choose the biggest name? is it really hate towards the ivy's? believe me, even though i will be attending one, if I were to get my education really cheaper I would go that route. The fact of the matter is that there is only a handfull of cheap schools out there, and if you do not get into the cheaper schools, then choose the biggest name school, because atleast you will get to know important contacts that you would not know at any other ordinary school.

    This post is not made to attack anyone, rather to really determine why the ivy league hate exists.
     
  2. INFNITE

    INFNITE mmm....doughnut
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    I went to an Ivy League school but paid in-state tuitions (Cornell's state funded college). best of both worlds
     
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  3. EyeAmCommi

    EyeAmCommi Los Angeles Smog
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    Why would you turn down admissions to UCLA in the first place? :p

    Also, 5-10k a year ends up being 20k or 40k extra. Plus, interest.
     
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  4. OP
    OP
    jjackson

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    you can make the same argument of why not Harvard, Upenn, or Columbia if you were out of california....
     
  5. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    First of all, I don't think most people know why they bash the ivy league schools.

    Secondly, even if the prices are close it shouldn't be an automatic decision to go Ivy. Name doesn't mean much to a lot of people, and Ivy does not neccesarily equal best. Networking at an Ivy also doesn't make much sense if the Ivy is 3000 miles from where you want to practice.

    Last, even though when you're comparing number like 280,000 vs. 300,000 it may not seem like it, $20,000 is a lot of money. Especially when it has an interest rate tacked onto it.

    Just to clarify, I have nothing against Ivies, and I highly considered attending Columbia. I chose not to only after a lot of consideration and financial modelling. Realize that though the ivies are great, they are not the best fit for everyone, and that what is "a lot of money" will differ from person to person.
     
  6. EyeAmCommi

    EyeAmCommi Los Angeles Smog
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    Uh. After a year, you get to pay in-state tuition.
     
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  7. OP
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    jjackson

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    True, $20,000 is money, but it should not THAT important in your final decision because after all, you are going to become a dentist and make a whole lot more...
     
  8. BodybldgDoc

    BodybldgDoc Guest

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    your argument does not make sense. Just because you think you will be a dentist, 20k doesnt matter to you. I think most people wouldnt think with that mentality. Also you seem to make it sound like dentistry is a gold mining business. How much you make as a dentist ultimately depends on how good of a dentist with a good business sense/lucky you are. Not all dentists are successful at making 6 figures. If you happened to be one of these dentists (not saying that you will) that are struggling, 20k stacked with interest can make a big difference. Just some thought
     
  9. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    Again, relativity, not just for physics anymore :p. How much it's going to take to change your mind depends on the person. What is a good school for one person may be awful for the next. There is no good way to objectively assess dental schools, hence no rankings exist.
     
  10. dent_girl

    dent_girl Member
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    well
    I think what's most important is what "you" want.
    if you decided to attend the ivy school and you think it will
    be good for you, don't listen to anyone now because you already
    made your decision. every decision comes with some good and bad
    so you just have to figure it out later.

    I was on the same boat, got into a bunch of ivy schools but
    decided to attend my state school. well, I just can't justify
    spending 75000 year (300,000 dollars + interest ) just to attend
    the school that has a great name. my parents were willing to help me out.
    mom wanted me to goto a big name school, dad wanted me to stay in
    so the decision wasn't based solely on financial issues.

    I know other ivies were cheaper but
    didn't want to go because I didn't necessarily think their facility and curriculum were so top notch. They were good schools, like one of those
    schools that everyone knows about but I think I can be a good dentist at my state school too and get into residency program if i do well at
    my state school. I already had out of state experience during undergrad
    so didn't really feel like going to a place that's so far from my hometown
    if I plan on staying here. I talked to about 10 dentists in my town
    and they all said "if you got into a state school, go." I was surprised
    because not a single dentist told me goto a school that has a great name.

    sounds like you really wanted to goto the ivy school that
    you decided to go, so stick with your decision. you will pay
    off the loans, you will have the experience at ivy. don't really worry
    about why other people think or hate the ivies.

    honestly, I don't think people are bashing on ivies just because
    they are jealous. I think people like to believe that they
    need to be happy with their decision, like yourself.
    I like to think that going to avstate school is the best thing
    ever because that's the decision I made. it's the same with everyone
    because no one really knows what to expect at d school, doesn't REALLY know
    how it is different between state school and ivy school ( I mean no1 really knows
    unless you went to both schools), no one has attended the dental school YET
    (assuming that everyone is a predent student here) but everyone reads so much ****
    here that everyone is a little scared, doubting their decision every second
     
  11. snapple59

    snapple59 New Member
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    Well I think most people are bashing ivy schools because they are jealous they couldn't get into ivy league schools. I'm sure there were some people who turned down ivy league schools because of financial reasons and some other reasons. But If I was accepted to an ivy league school, I would have gone there in a heart beat. Let's just stop bashing ivy league schools and NYU.
     
  12. collegeboy30000

    collegeboy30000 Senior Member
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    How does 5K-10K end up being 20K-40K? What is the interest on that?
    [Reminds me from that scene in Ocean's Twelve.]

    To anyone who says that name is not important, needs to wake up and seriously stop lying to themselves. If name is not important then why don't those people apply to schools with continual low stats (Howard and Meharry) and get a nice scholarship from them and save money and seriously stop hating on the Ivy league schools.

    People who think name is not important,...when you become a successful dentist-making six figures-are you going to be driving a crappy car and live in the "bad" part of town and send your children to the "cheapest" public school--[usually in not so favorable site in major cities (in Miami: Liberty City, Opa-Locka, Allapatha, Overtown)] all b/c you think name doesn't mean crap?

    I really never considered going to an Ivy-League but when the opportunity presented itself, I took it because the school not only attracts many well- rounded students and top notch professors/educators, and it was a great fit for me.


    The only recurring argument against all Ivy League D-Schools is..."poor clinical , not enough experience..." Well there are D-school out there that focus on pumping out general dentist! And from the looks of it, about 99% of pre-dents accepted to D-school this cycle that I have spoken with, all want to be an orthodontist(including myself)!!

    Without proper teaching of theory/didactics I assume you limit your future clinical skills.
     
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  13. dizzle23x

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    5-10K * 4 years = 20-40K with zero interest. good luck at that ivy league.
     
  14. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    Over the lifetime of a $10,000, 8% 30 year loan you will pay back $26,400. I was trying to be civil about this, but since we're pushing I'll go ahead and push back a bit.

    People do apply to schools that will save them money, and they do continuosly choose them over ivies. Howard and Meharry are awful examples, because though they are cheap they're recruiting practices are often called into question, and thus they are very unpopular with pre-dents. I'm sure you'll find that cheaper, more accesible schools draw plenty of students away from the ivies. Why? Because they realize name isn't as important as their financial situation.

    Feel free to wax on about the awesome cars and housing we'll be driving and populating, but how about taking a look at what happens to a $100,000 salary after Uncle Sam and 300,000 in loans are done working on it. Just be happy you spent the extra 150,000 on a name that your buddy (who went to a Howard for $60,000, and got the exact same degree) used to buy his house in the nice part of town.

    Also, realize not everybody is going to dental school to specialize. Some of us are actually going to become dentists.

    Anyway, try to reign in your ego a bit here, and realize that your situation doesn't apply to everyone else. Base your decision on what ever you want, name, school mascot, whatever you like, but just because you did so doesn't mean that it's better then any other choice.


    /rant
     
  15. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    Even though they've been said ad nauseum I'm going to wheel out these two favorites:

    1. Your patients don't care where you went to school. Most of them assume your schooling consisted of some sort of extension course at the local community college. Any of the ones who base their decision on the school you went to, you probably don't want to deal with anyway.

    2. Only pre-dents care about this crap. I've probably asked 2 dozen dentists for advice about making the decision on where I should go to school, and I got "The cheapest school you got into" from EVERY SINGLE ONE. This includes docs who went to ivies, to state schools, from orthodontists to surgeons. Hell, the only school recommended to me by name wasn't even a "name brand" school...
     
  16. in her drawer

    in her drawer Ain't no glory in a war
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    Become an hero please.
     
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  17. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    Hey, the internets is very serios business
     
  18. pre-dentalguy

    pre-dentalguy Senior Member
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    Look, all of that matters now, but it won't matter when you practicing. When you have a patients come in with excruciating facial and mouth pain, that last thing there thinking about is what school you attended. Moreover, there not interested in what your overall gpa was.

    What do you call a student that graduated from Havard Dental School with a 4.0 vs. a student that graduated from Howard Dental School? ....A DENTIST!!

    So while you're thinking that it's something reputable now, it may not be later.

    PDG
     
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  19. jaypea65

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    I concur. I think that Armorshell hits the nail on the head.
     
  20. prez_al

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    ditto... basically it's all up to you. As long as you have good chairside manners and do an excellent job, it doesn't matter where you go. Like armor, I strongly considered Columbia before deciding otherwise. I'd rather be closer to home, be able to breathe clean air, throw snowballs at people and still get a kickass education for almost 20k less at a public school since tuition there doesn't just increase 4k over last year.
     
  21. djeffreyt

    djeffreyt Senior Member
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    well, I never applied to an ivy league school mostly cause I wasn't enthralled with any of their programs when I heard about them, also, I didn't even know Columbia or UPenn were Ivy league schools, but there are two quick questions/comments I have.

    First, private schools don't make up half of dental schools. There are around 55 or so dental schools, and only 15 of them are private.

    Also, I don't see why you think going to an Ivy league or "big name" school equates with a higher probability of success. I mean, when was the last time you saw a general dentist with a sign on their door that said:

    "Joe Schmo, DMD
    Harvard Graduate"

    or an ad like:

    "Come to Nancy Doe's Dental Arts Office. She graduated from Columbia...so you know she's better."

    Even if you're talking about attempting to specialize...the school you went to matters if you are applying to programs at the school you went to, but beyond that, do you really think it matters all that much? Do you really think the admissions committee for oral surgery residencies at Nova Southeastern will get an application and have a discussion like this:

    ADCOM 1: Here's another file.
    ADCOM 2: Oh, where did she graduate from?
    ADCOM 1: UPenn
    ADCOM 2: Oh, my, why that's a much better dental school program than our program here at Nova...or UNLV, or Mississippi.

    And yes, that's extreme...but the admissions people will mostly be dentists who have probably graduated from lots of different schools. It's far more likely that if they are going to have a bias, it will simply be for dental students who also graduated from the same dental schools as themselves...but I doubt very much if even that would be a factor.

    So I just don't get the "most success" thing about an ivy league
     
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  22. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    To be honest, I do think there is some advantage for specializing coming from a school like Columbia, or Harvard, or UCLA or UCSF, mainly because they're P/F and don't rank. So no matter what, if you have decent board scores, letters and ECs you should be able to match somewhere despite not being top 10%.
     
  23. collegeboy30000

    collegeboy30000 Senior Member
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    Interest is a pain.
     
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  24. Revelde

    Revelde Member
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    people plz stop this crap.

    who cares?

    if I think name matters and want to feed my ego I ll go to a big name school

    if I think name does not matter a bit and want to save some $$$ I ll go to my state school

    why do y'all care so much about what others think?

    go wherever u wanna go.

    stop bashing. quit justifying.

    I am sick tired of this S#itty bla bla :mad:
     
  25. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
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    If it wasn't for threads like this, SDN would have one thread called "WHAT ARE mY CHancES?" and that would be all :p
     
  26. djeffreyt

    djeffreyt Senior Member
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    No one is forced to read or post in a thread they don't care about...just don't read it. If I recall...you recently posted in the 100K SDN Members thread...talk about a blah blah who cares thread.

    Don't get me wrong...You're not the first, and neither was I, to post in a thread cause they got fed up with that topic and wanted people to stop...but posting...even to ask people to stop....just feeds the fire.
     
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  27. Revelde

    Revelde Member
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    Just to let u know... I was referring specifically to "why/why not Ivies" topic. so that 100K member has nothing to do with this.

    and I don't care where people choose to go and why. however I DO care why people don't stop arguing about this topic. if you ve been around here for a while, you ve also seen how many times this topic has been brought up.

    so Dont tell me dont read and post if you dont care.
     
  28. BodybldgDoc

    BodybldgDoc Guest

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    you need to chill. you seem to be foaming at the mouth.
     
  29. Envision

    Envision Envisioning...
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    Relax Revelde. SDN is composed of an everlasting cycle of repeated questions...this will never change. If you have been here so long that these threads annoy you that much...you will have to either ignore them like Drjeffrey said...or stop coming on to SDN altogether. Because i assure you, these threads will continue to resurface year after year because the applicant pool changes from year to year...and sometimes people want to hear fresh new opinions.
     
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  30. djeffreyt

    djeffreyt Senior Member
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    feeding the fire

    and as for telling you not to read or post...it was a general statement...not directed at you. Do you see the word "YOU shouldn't read and YOU shouldn't post"? You seem to take things pretty personally...almost like this whole thread is some kind of insult to you.

    I said, if a person doesn't care, then that person doesn't need to post or read that thread.

    As for being around a while and seeing repeat threads...well duh.
     
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  31. 1992Corolla

    1992Corolla CheerioKing
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    Armorshell is my hero.

    OP, save this post read it in ten years and laugh at yourself. Don't worry, we all have posts like this, except for me.
     
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  32. reapply2007

    reapply2007 Senior Member
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    Isn't most of the Ivy league in major metro areas on the east coast, plus Stanford? If money is no object then it probably doesn't matter where you go. GPA, clinical experience, boards will require more or less work to get you out into the work world. If you don't want to put in the work to milk as much as possible out of dental school then it matters even less where you go to dental school.

    This brings me back to my original point-if money is no object and your goal is to simply finish dental school then why not go to an Ivy league school? The night life is pretty good most of the way around the Ivy league. If you want to specialize then go somewhere where you'll have the best chance of doing well academically and clinically, and where the school will help you get into your residency (ie. perhaps the school has a residency in an area you want to specialize). This may or may not be an Ivy league school.

    If you are like the rest of us then go where it's most affordable and figure out a way to accomplish your dreams from there. You're a big kid now and you've gotten this far without the Ivy league. Save the money, avoid the time value of money in the form of compounding interest and opportunity cost during repayment, pay off the loans sooner rather than later.
     
  33. tooth decay

    tooth decay science officer
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    I think the reason that most of the dental schools that have a "name" is usually secondary to the fact that they are associated with a highly ranked medical school that has a good reputation- probably because they share part of a curriculum. Places like UCLA, UCSF, U of Michigan, etc. have dental schools with good reputations probably for these reasons (as do the Ivy league dental schools). Their reputations as dental and medical schools is just as good as the Ivy league dental schools. Of course, I think the reality of the excellence of all schools with "good reputations" varies quite a bit. The absence of this medical/ dental school association with other dental schools is probably one reason why it is difficult to rank dental schools.
     
  34. lgwdnbdgr

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    The Ivies are, in no particular order:
    Harvard
    Dartmouth
    Brown
    Yale
    Cornell
    Columbia
    Princeton
    Penn

    Stanford is not Ivy -- Stanford is PAC-10.

     
  35. Eugenie98

    Eugenie98 Member
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    Well for undergrad... going to an Ivy + 3 (Stanford, Duke MIT) is useful if you want to do i-banking, investment managent, or law, basically industries which bank at least partially on undergrad prestige.

    It really is not an advantage for medical or dental school, the competition is much more fierce. Even among the ivies there is a steep difference in competition. It bears out in the Law School admit numbers, at Princeton, for example, 41% of the class scores in the 95th%ile or higher on the lsat (167), at UPenn 27% score 95%ile or better whereas at Arizona State (a decent state school) only 4% score in the 95%ile on the LSAT

    Of course you might be a prestige ***** in which case you get some free ego stroking from going to Princeton..

    For med school, it depends, for those who will be GP's there is little advantage at going to an Ivy over state. Save yourself the $50,000+
     
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  36. NE Ohio Penguin

    NE Ohio Penguin Happy Feet
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    Don't judge a school based on tuition cost. when you're done, you'll be able to pay off your loans.

    If cost of living is expensive, then look into military. That's an option alot of people don't consider.

    Ivys are a great incetive to enroll, just do it.

    Disclaimer: Ivys tend to be much more difficult from what I've heard, and competition is steeper with your classmates.

    I'd love to do Ivy maybe after dental school. But if an Ivy picks me for dental school...what the heck, why not. I still prefer OSU though. Go Buckeyes!

    O-H-I-O!

    Cheers.
     
  37. Meatwad

    Meatwad Reformed
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    Maybe the competition is more fierce at some Ivies, but if your curriculum is Pass/Fail, and they don't give out class rank, then does it matter how competitive it is? Not really. If you pass all your classes and do well on the boards, then it doesn't matter if you barely passed and were in the bottom 10% of your class. Must be nice not to have to worry about a GPA or class rank anymore.
     
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  38. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show
    Physician Dentist Moderator Emeritus Verified Expert 10+ Year Member

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    Unless you're an H/P/MP/F school like every "Pass/Fail" dental school is. Not to mention that every class is likely curved, so you're still competing with your classmates just not to fail.

    This is compounded by the fact that as far as I know, most of these schools keep pretty good track of exactly what your grades are, and where you rank in the class. I know for certain that Columbia notates your transcript if you're in the top 10% or not.
     
  39. Meatwad

    Meatwad Reformed
    7+ Year Member

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    Ouch. Thanks for the info.
     
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