Today's News: A nurse may soon be your doctor

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Coastie said:
If you wanted independence, why did you go to physician's assistant school? :laugh:
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I didn't. Why do you think I do? Because I said I would like to operate a rural clinic?
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mwppa said:
I would think you would need another person to help you carry all that ego. ;)
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Right. Anybody who states the facts that MDs have 4 years of training plus residency while PAs have 2 years of training has an ego. Newsflash: just because somebody tells you PAs aren't qualified to practice independantly or don't have the same knowledge base as a physician doesn't mean they have an ego.

You're looking for a backdoor into practicing medicine independantly with just one year of basic sciences and one year of clinical training...and you can't figure out why everyone thinks you're crazy? Yeah yeah yeah, we all know you could've gone to medical school if you wanted, blah blah blah. Well then you could've been a doctor if you wanted, but you chose not to. You're a PA who will have to work within his scope. There's nothing wrong with that. You're the only one making a big deal about it. You have an inferiority complex.
 
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mwppa said:
Typical Physician Mentality: No one is qualified to practice medicine except for me. I know this because I went 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school, 3 years residency. Nothing is as hard as that. I know this despite the fact that I couldn't possibly complete every program of study the world has to offer. Lawyers? What a joke...that would be easy (even if I don't have a JD to prove it's easy) PAs? That's just water out of a hose but my training is like drinking water from a hurricane. Besides, my mommy tells all her friends how smart I am.

Even if 50 years of evidence proves that NPs and PAs provide similar care to me, it's bogus because the studies are non-scientific. And I know they are non-scientific because I'm a doctor. Only doctors know what is scientific and what isn't. If you wanted to have an opinion that counts, you should've went to med school. And even if patients are more satisfied with their PA/NP, I still don't care. Heck, most are too dumb to realize my splendor anyway. Yep, that's it...(I have to find some way to justify spending 11 years of my life to do what some can in 4 all while spending 300+k to do it...damn, maybe I'm not that smart afterall?)

Let the flaming begin.
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Jesus, are you really that clueless? Good luck finding a job with your attitude issues.
 
J1515 said:
Jesus, are you really this clueless?
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Nice insults there friend. Interestingly enough is that you have failed to provide any data that shows that NPs or PAs are not capable of providing a similar level of care. Words without data = rhetoric. I would love to read some links with proof if you have some.
 
mwppa said:
Nice insults there friend. Interestingly enough is that you have failed to provide any data that shows that NPs or PAs are not capable of providing a similar level of care. Words without data = rhetoric. I would love to read some links with proof if you have some.
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And you have yet to provide literature that shows any of your arguments, such as:

-Females would rather see an NP or PA over an obgyn doc
-Medical schools discourage applicants from taking anatomy and physiology in college
-There are a ton of MDs who are crap but very few PAs who are problematic
-All PA students are older and more experienced than all medical students

Hey, two years ago I saw a patient in the clinic by myself as an MS3. At her followup 6 months later her HTN and diabetes were still under control! I guess I don't need residency, I could do this stuff as a 3rd year medical student! Maybe I should publish my own study based on that.

You've lost all credibility my friend. Anyone who tries to show you the truth has an ego. I'm done here. I'll leave you with some valuable advice: it's not everyone else who has the ego problem...it's you
 
mwppa said:
Typical Physician Mentality: No one is qualified to practice medicine except for me. I know this because I went 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school, 3 years residency. Nothing is as hard as that. I know this despite the fact that I couldn't possibly complete every program of study the world has to offer. Lawyers? What a joke...that would be easy (even if I don't have a JD to prove it's easy) PAs? That's just water out of a hose but my training is like drinking water from a hurricane. Besides, my mommy tells all her friends how smart I am.

Even if 50 years of evidence proves that NPs and PAs provide similar care to me, it's bogus because the studies are non-scientific. And I know they are non-scientific because I'm a doctor. Only doctors know what is scientific and what isn't. If you wanted to have an opinion that counts, you should've went to med school. And even if patients are more satisfied with their PA/NP, I still don't care. Heck, most are too dumb to realize my splendor anyway. Yep, that's it...(I have to find some way to justify spending 11 years of my life to do what some can in 4 all while spending 300+k to do it...damn, maybe I'm not that smart afterall?)

Let the flaming begin.
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Ignorance is the person that doesn't realize their own limitations. If you think the education of physicians is superfluous, and that we don't develop a fund of knowledge that is beyond your scope, then not only are you a mid-level, you're a dumb mid-level.

But it's more than the fact that we learn a $hit-ton more than you. No, since you've never gone through medical school, you have no idea about the rigors of it. You have no idea that it's more than just learning material. It's a test of will and stamina that frankly you will never understand. You cannot understand it. Only those that do it will understand.

You need to learn to accept your career for what it is. I'm sure you'll be awesome at spotting and treating the common cold! You could probably grade a reflex with the best of 'em! I bet you know all about the clotting cascade! Rock on! Go tell it on the mountain! It's just that people training to become physicians aspire to more than that.
 
sideways said:
It's just that people training to become physicians aspire to more than that.
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If Physicians aspire to more than that then why are so many doctors on this board butthurt that NPs and PAs will "take away the easy cases" leaving them with the more difficult cases with higher liability?
 
mwppa said:
UCLA admissions page...scroll down toward the bottom

http://www.medstudent.ucla.edu/prospective/admissions/default.cfm?pgID=3

"Courses overlapping in subject matter (e.g. human anatomy) with those in the school of medicine are not recommended. "
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Nice try. That is written under the "prerequisites," as in admission requirements, meaning the classes they recommend you take to increase your chances at getting accepted. In other words they are telling you those classes will not help you get admitted to medical school. Keep searching! :thumbup:


-Females would rather see an NP or PA over an obgyn doc
-Medical schools discourage applicants from taking anatomy and physiology in college
-There are a ton of MDs who are crap but very few PAs who are problematic
-All PA students are older and more experienced than all medical students
 
mwppa said:
If Physicians aspire to more than that then why are so many doctors on this board butthurt that NPs and PAs will "take away the easy cases" leaving them with the more difficult cases with higher liability?
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Because no one likes a bottom-feeder.
 
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mwppa said:
If Physicians aspire to more than that then why are so many doctors on this board butthurt that NPs and PAs will "take away the easy cases" leaving them with the more difficult cases with higher liability?
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Ask a malpractice lawyer. He'll explain it to you in layman's terms.
 
J1515 said:
Ask a malpractice lawyer. He'll explain it to you in layman's terms.
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Thank you for that...big words from a person who has "Doctor for Dummies" under their bed. :D
 
I don't know why anyone in this thread is dignifying the person that thinks nurses=doctors with responses.


Remember folks: :troll:
 
sideways said:
Ignorance is the person that doesn't realize their own limitations. If you think the education of physicians is superfluous, and that we don't develop a fund of knowledge that is beyond your scope, then not only are you a mid-level, you're a dumb mid-level.

But it's more than the fact that we learn a $hit-ton more than you. No, since you've never gone through medical school, you have no idea about the rigors of it. You have no idea that it's more than just learning material. It's a test of will and stamina that frankly you will never understand. You cannot understand it. Only those that do it will understand.

You need to learn to accept your career for what it is. I'm sure you'll be awesome at spotting and treating the common cold! You could probably grade a reflex with the best of 'em! I bet you know all about the clotting cascade! Rock on! Go tell it on the mountain! It's just that people training to become physicians aspire to more than that.
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Winner by TKO ...
 
J1515 said:
And you have yet to provide literature that shows any of your arguments, such as:

-Females would rather see an NP or PA over an obgyn doc
-Medical schools discourage applicants from taking anatomy and physiology in college
-There are a ton of MDs who are crap but very few PAs who are problematic
-All PA students are older and more experienced than all medical students

Hey, two years ago I saw a patient in the clinic by myself as an MS3. At her followup 6 months later her HTN and diabetes were still under control! I guess I don't need residency, I could do this stuff as a 3rd year medical student! Maybe I should publish my own study based on that.

You've lost all credibility my friend. Anyone who tries to show you the truth has an ego. I'm done here. I'll leave you with some valuable advice: it's not everyone else who has the ego problem...it's you
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I'd rather just see a female ob/gyn doc :D
 
christina30 said:
I'd rather just see a female ob/gyn doc :D
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Most females would. I was quoting the nonsense that a PA student fabricated to try to make his profession look better.
 
J1515 said:
Most females would. I was quoting the nonsense that a PA student fabricated to try to make his profession look better.
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I know. I was just offering proof that females really wouldn't prefer to see a PA/NP over an ob/gyn doc.
 
sideways said:
Ignorance is the person that doesn't realize their own limitations. If you think the education of physicians is superfluous, and that we don't develop a fund of knowledge that is beyond your scope, then not only are you a mid-level, you're a dumb mid-level.

But it's more than the fact that we learn a $hit-ton more than you. No, since you've never gone through medical school, you have no idea about the rigors of it. You have no idea that it's more than just learning material. It's a test of will and stamina that frankly you will never understand. You cannot understand it. Only those that do it will understand.

You need to learn to accept your career for what it is. I'm sure you'll be awesome at spotting and treating the common cold! You could probably grade a reflex with the best of 'em! I bet you know all about the clotting cascade! Rock on! Go tell it on the mountain! It's just that people training to become physicians aspire to more than that.
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I don't understand why doctors and medical students are so quick to talk down on all other health professions, as if certain information taught in medical school is open to our eyes only. Reading the posts on this thread have been so frustrating!

You say that medical school is something that no one who doesn't go through it can understand, and you are correct, but have we ever spent a day in a nursing or PA class??? In turn, we have no clue what people in other health professions are learning either, but we're SO QUICK to say that they aren't qualified just because they weren't in medical school.

Medical school does teach A LOT and is very trying, but we're laying the foundation to handle any health issue that can possibly arise. We're being trained to be the future neurosurgeons, cardiologists, etc...not just primary care doctors. Primary care is only one aspect in the vastness of our studies, which I'm sure is taught in just as much detail to NP's and PA's that will be providing it as well. Until more outcomes studies are done proving or disproving this, no comments should even be made in the contrary. The "physicians [that] aspire to more than that" don't have to go into primary care if they don't want to!

What drives me is that no one complains about the work that PA's and NP's are currently allowed to provide, which would be the same whether the legislation their pushing for passes or not. Doctors are only outraged when the idea of removing us as supervisors comes into play. We need to get off our high horses! If you ask me, we get so caught up in the power associated with having an MD that it takes precedence over actual patient care. So what, some NP's will open their own practices and have more independence and respect. The benefit of having more practitioners available to the 40 million people about to enter the health system outweighs the 'disadvantage' of whatever authority hit doctors may take. Sure, in an ideal world, more primary care physicians could be trained, but that costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time. Why are we so against using health care resources effectively by sharing some of the burden with other professionals?? "Ignorance to the person that doesn't realize their own limitations," right? Ignorance to us future physicians, then, trying to play like gods and do it all.
 
MD in three said:
I don't understand why doctors and medical students are so quick to talk down on all other health professions, as if certain information taught in medical school is open to our eyes only. Reading the posts on this thread have been so frustrating!

You say that medical school is something that no one who doesn't go through it can understand, and you are correct, but have we ever spent a day in a nursing or PA class??? In turn, we have no clue what people in other health professions are learning either, but we're SO QUICK to say that they aren't qualified just because they weren't in medical school.

Medical school does teach A LOT and is very trying, but we're laying the foundation to handle any health issue that can possibly arise. We're being trained to be the future neurosurgeons, cardiologists, etc...not just primary care doctors. Primary care is only one aspect in the vastness of our studies, which I'm sure is taught in just as much detail to NP's and PA's that will be providing it as well. Until more outcomes studies are done proving or disproving this, no comments should even be made in the contrary. The "physicians [that] aspire to more than that" don't have to go into primary care if they don't want to!

What drives me is that no one complains about the work that PA's and NP's are currently allowed to provide, which would be the same whether the legislation their pushing for passes or not. Doctors are only outraged when the idea of removing us as supervisors comes into play. We need to get off our high horses! If you ask me, we get so caught up in the power associated with having an MD that it takes precedence over actual patient care. So what, some NP's will open their own practices and have more independence and respect. The benefit of having more practitioners available to the 40 million people about to enter the health system outweighs the 'disadvantage' of whatever authority hit doctors may take. Sure, in an ideal world, more primary care physicians could be trained, but that costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time. Why are we so against using health care resources effectively by sharing some of the burden with other professionals?? "Ignorance to the person that doesn't realize their own limitations," right? Ignorance to us future physicians, then, trying to play like gods and do it all.
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Overall you make good points, but I want to highlight a few points...

First, I don't think you should lump NP's and PA's together, as the teaching/training/mentality is vastly different between the two. PA's, at least at my med school, take some of the same clerkships as the MS3's. So they do get the same clinical exposure. They get tested on different material (they didn't take the NBME shelf, they took their own departmental exam that was more focused to their scope of practice). DNP can be an online course, and even "residencies" being touted can be as little as 500 hours of training (which, if you compare to the 80hr/wk medical residency, would be equivalent to 6.5 weeks of training for us - there is a thread in the general residency issues forum about this).

There are also been many PA's that have argued that they don't want/aren't searching for working without MD supervision (see the the thread on changing the name of Physicians Assistant to Physicians Associate), and that PA's wanting their own practice is more of an outlier. NP's are pushing for this, so much of this debate is MD vs DNP. Now, the only proof I have against your claim that "im sure it is taught just as well to NP and PA's" claim that you gave just as blantly and without facts as everyone claiming that they don't know **** (just because you say a nice fact doesn't mean you can go without proof) is found in the signature of SDN user Taurus, http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/06/08/prl10608.htm where graduates for DNP programs who took a dumbed down version of Step 3, a test that in its normal form has about a 99% pass rate for MD's (no evidence to back that up, but is largely considered that easiest of all the step exams by us in medicine), had only a 50% pass rate for DNP's. This was a dumbed down version of it. So no, I'm pretty sure it isn't taught just as well.

People are complaining about the scope of practice for NP's currently, and fighting back against them in states that already give them practice rights and prescription rights. And there is a reason it matters if the practice on their own is not the loss of autonomy for doctors. The reason is multifold - 1) Patients get a lesser trained/educated provider, as evidenced by my above post, although that might not equate to difference in care provided
2) They take away jobs from doctors, which if it was proven they provide equal care and patients don't suffer, a claim that really can't be proven, isn't a bad thing, but most importantly 3) by offering an inferior product (if that is to be the assumption) for a cheaper price, you cause a situation where payers will begin devaluing what physicians get paid and further driving down the income of primary care physicians, which will further the tailspin to eventually have no primary care docs.

There are turf wars everywhere, each group claiming, quite vehemetly, they can do it best/are best qualified to do it. There are tons of threads on this information, and it isn't causing any help, but just a place to vent.

While patient satisfaction is a major issue, we shouldn't be promoting the "ignorance is bliss" philosophy. Just because some poll might have shown people feel better cared for by an NP/PA because they felt more listened to or got spent more time with, doesn't mean they got better treatment, or that the NP/PA did a better job. As a med student, I have less responsibility and thus can spend more time with the patients. I am currently on my ER rotation, and patients I see get a more complete history taken, get more attention, and typically get things done faster because I am following 3-4 patients and can be on top of everything, where the resident/attending has 20pts, answering EMS calls, covering trauma. In their 2 minutes that the see and examine the patient they get more important stuff than in my 15 minutes doing the same, and know more than I know about what to do for the case. You ask the patient and they think I was excellent, attentive, caring, and very knowledgable (because when we get something, I go explain it to the pt, let them know what is going on whereas the res/attend don't have time to do that for all that is going on). The same applies to the NP clinic to a lesser degree.
 
thedrjojo said:
Overall you make good points, but I want to highlight a few points...

First, I don't think you should lump NP's and PA's together, as the teaching/training/mentality is vastly different between the two. PA's, at least at my med school, take some of the same clerkships as the MS3's. So they do get the same clinical exposure. They get tested on different material (they didn't take the NBME shelf, they took their own departmental exam that was more focused to their scope of practice). DNP can be an online course, and even "residencies" being touted can be as little as 500 hours of training (which, if you compare to the 80hr/wk medical residency, would be equivalent to 6.5 weeks of training for us - there is a thread in the general residency issues forum about this).

There are also been many PA's that have argued that they don't want/aren't searching for working without MD supervision (see the the thread on changing the name of Physicians Assistant to Physicians Associate), and that PA's wanting their own practice is more of an outlier. NP's are pushing for this, so much of this debate is MD vs DNP. Now, the only proof I have against your claim that "im sure it is taught just as well to NP and PA's" claim that you gave just as blantly and without facts as everyone claiming that they don't know **** (just because you say a nice fact doesn't mean you can go without proof) is found in the signature of SDN user Taurus, http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/06/08/prl10608.htm where graduates for DNP programs who took a dumbed down version of Step 3, a test that in its normal form has about a 99% pass rate for MD's (no evidence to back that up, but is largely considered that easiest of all the step exams by us in medicine), had only a 50% pass rate for DNP's. This was a dumbed down version of it. So no, I'm pretty sure it isn't taught just as well.

People are complaining about the scope of practice for NP's currently, and fighting back against them in states that already give them practice rights and prescription rights. And there is a reason it matters if the practice on their own is not the loss of autonomy for doctors. The reason is multifold - 1) Patients get a lesser trained/educated provider, as evidenced by my above post, although that might not equate to difference in care provided
2) They take away jobs from doctors, which if it was proven they provide equal care and patients don't suffer, a claim that really can't be proven, isn't a bad thing, but most importantly 3) by offering an inferior product (if that is to be the assumption) for a cheaper price, you cause a situation where payers will begin devaluing what physicians get paid and further driving down the income of primary care physicians, which will further the tailspin to eventually have no primary care docs.

There are turf wars everywhere, each group claiming, quite vehemetly, they can do it best/are best qualified to do it. There are tons of threads on this information, and it isn't causing any help, but just a place to vent.

While patient satisfaction is a major issue, we shouldn't be promoting the "ignorance is bliss" philosophy. Just because some poll might have shown people feel better cared for by an NP/PA because they felt more listened to or got spent more time with, doesn't mean they got better treatment, or that the NP/PA did a better job. As a med student, I have less responsibility and thus can spend more time with the patients. I am currently on my ER rotation, and patients I see get a more complete history taken, get more attention, and typically get things done faster because I am following 3-4 patients and can be on top of everything, where the resident/attending has 20pts, answering EMS calls, covering trauma. In their 2 minutes that the see and examine the patient they get more important stuff than in my 15 minutes doing the same, and know more than I know about what to do for the case. You ask the patient and they think I was excellent, attentive, caring, and very knowledgable (because when we get something, I go explain it to the pt, let them know what is going on whereas the res/attend don't have time to do that for all that is going on). The same applies to the NP clinic to a lesser degree.
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I respect your comments... but please note that the DNP degree you are speaking of (online) is for an NP who has already completed a Masters program and has completed certification as an NP.

best of luck:)
 
NurseKJ said:
I respect your comments... but please note that the DNP degree you are speaking of (online) is for an NP who has already completed a Masters program and has completed certification as an NP.

best of luck:)
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Still, to receive a Doctorate level degree online? One with clinical implications and impact on patients? Is it essentially saying NP are good enough already, but to make them more marketable let them take these online courses for a few months and they can put Dr. in front of their name? Doctors have issues/concerns (mostly unjustified) with people that go to the caribbean for 2 years of classroom teaching about how good their credentials are, and we are suppose to be ok with an online course of study?

It still doesn't address the 50% pass rate for the simplified version of the Step 3 :eek:, or the completion of a "residency" in 500 hours (see the USF Dermatology 'residency'), something medical residents amass before the end of their second month of internship... it still doesn't address the lack of any quality study comparing DNP to FP/IM for any length of time greater than 6-12 months (looking at diseases that have outcomes 10-20 years after onset), or address issues besides satisfaction... do any of these surveys ask about "confidence in providers knowledge about disease" or "trust that provider could identify if a serious problem was going on and deal with it themselves if possible" would show people with as much support for DNP as MD
 
thedrjojo said:
Still, to receive a Doctorate level degree online? One with clinical implications and impact on patients? Is it essentially saying NP are good enough already, but to make them more marketable let them take these online courses for a few months and they can put Dr. in front of their name? Doctors have issues/concerns (mostly unjustified) with people that go to the caribbean for 2 years of classroom teaching about how good their credentials are, and we are suppose to be ok with an online course of study?

It still doesn't address the 50% pass rate for the simplified version of the Step 3 :eek:, or the completion of a "residency" in 500 hours (see the USF Dermatology 'residency'), something medical residents amass before the end of their second month of internship... it still doesn't address the lack of any quality study comparing DNP to FP/IM for any length of time greater than 6-12 months (looking at diseases that have outcomes 10-20 years after onset), or address issues besides satisfaction... do any of these surveys ask about "confidence in providers knowledge about disease" or "trust that provider could identify if a serious problem was going on and deal with it themselves if possible" would show people with as much support for DNP as MD
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Yes, I am aware. I was just giving you accurate information in which to make your argument. Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts ;)

(PS, I consider myself a guest on the forum, being as I am an RN, NP-student. I visit b/c I think it's important to try to understand all sides of the discussion/issues. If you have a specific question/idea that you would like my opinion on, I would gladly try to oblige, but I do not intend to participate in us vs them discussions... that's just not for me...)
 
NurseKJ said:
Yes, I am aware. I was just giving you accurate information in which to make your argument. Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts ;)

(PS, I consider myself a guest on the forum, being as I am an RN, NP-student. I visit b/c I think it's important to try to understand all sides of the discussion/issues. If you have a specific question/idea that you would like my opinion on, I would gladly try to oblige, but I do not intend to participate in us vs them discussions... that's just not for me...)
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No worries. I believe these forums are open to all medical professionals, and even if they aren't, you clearly see that doesn't stop anyone from putting in their 2 cents. People on both sides should try to have a more open mind and see both sides as you appear to be doing. I just want to note that these forums are a frindge group of the medical community, and likely do not represent the community as a whole, just like you probably would warn me that the NP's who post on here don't represent NP's on a whole.
 
thedrjojo said:
No worries. I believe these forums are open to all medical professionals, and even if they aren't, you clearly see that doesn't stop anyone from putting in their 2 cents. People on both sides should try to have a more open mind and see both sides as you appear to be doing. I just want to note that these forums are a frindge group of the medical community, and likely do not represent the community as a whole, just like you probably would warn me that the NP's who post on here don't represent NP's on a whole.
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Very true-- if there is anywhere on these forums that a nurse would be welcomed, I would def assume it was an "interdisciplinary thread" :)
 
clueless1 said:
Yet another comically short-sighted "solution" to a problem...the minute NP's get the same reimbursement as primary care docs, every single medical student in the country ceases to consider primary care as a career option. The analysis is stunningly simple: I'm going to go through more years of training and incur orders of magnitude more debt, just so I can do the same job for the same pay as someone who did half as much training (at 1/10th the cost) as me? No thanks.

In other words, you think there's a shortage of med students going into primary care now? Just wait 'til you devalue it another notch...it will exacerbate the problem to an extreme.
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^^this is 100% correct - great point
 
American healthcare is based on cost. NPs are cheaper than docs. Nurses have a powerful lobby and the public perception that they are more caring than doctors. Policy is made looking one step ahead (if you're lucky). There is a high chance they will get what they want, including being called "doctor". Though when those high-risk cases come around they will be "nurse".
 
I'm currently on my Adult Med rotation, on a Nephrology hospital service. I get to attend lunch conferences, and let me just confirm for anyone who's unsure on this matter ... Doctors are trained much more thoroughly than NPs (or PAs, for that matter). I knew PA school teaches us a great deal (and it does), but the pathophys and conditions/diseases that medical school teaches goes much deeper.

I challenge any NP to sit in on one of those lunchtime conferences, or grand rounds, and then state that they can give oversight without a connection of communication to a MD or DO ... or that they deserve to be called 'Doctor' in a medical setting.
 
christina30 said:
I know. I was just offering proof that females really wouldn't prefer to see a PA/NP over an ob/gyn doc.
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Now, now, this isn't proof as my wife prefers her woman's health NP over the gyn doc that supervises the NP.
 
Are there any programs were I can take online nursing courses to supplement my future MD???? I'm not really interested in going to "nursing school" per se or paying a lot of tuition, but I'd really like to be able to introduce myself to patients as either a "DOCTOR" or a "nurse". That way I can shift blame if something if something goes wrong, or purposely confuse my patients for ****s and giggles! :smuggrin:

I also think adding as many letters as possible to the end of my name is cool. :thumbup:
 
bawer234 said:
Are there any programs were I can take online nursing courses to supplement my future MD???? I'm not really interested in going to "nursing school" per se or paying a lot of tuition, but I'd really like to be able to introduce myself to patients as either a "DOCTOR" or a "nurse". That way I can shift blame if something if something goes wrong, or purposely confuse my patients for ****s and giggles! :smuggrin:

I also think adding as many letters as possible to the end of my name is cool. :thumbup:
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Most mid-levels would be able to tell you that a really smart person would not go your suggested route but would just change their last name. Then you would be "Doctor Nurse" but probably not any smarter.:laugh:
 
MD in three said:
Primary care is only one aspect in the vastness of our studies, which I'm sure is taught in just as much detail to NP's and PA's that will be providing it as well.
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WRONG. Primary care is the HARDEST specialty, because you have to know EVERYTHING.

There is no possible way that NPs get the same amount of training in half of the time. Please look into the curricula behind these programs, and compare them to medical school curriculum. For med school, check the LCME accreditation requirements. I don't know of any specific requirements for NP program accreditation, but if anyone does I would be glad to take a look at them myself. All I have been able to do is talk personally with nurses and look at individual programs online.
 
I laughed out loud in the library when I read this sentence...

..."This bill would make it illegal for any licensed health care provider who is not a medical doctor (MD) or doctor of osteopathic medicine (DO) to make any statement or engage in any act that would lead patients or the public to believe that they have the same or equivalent education, skills, or training as an MD or DO."

Um, and what exactly is the problem with that? (Other than nurses looking for degree inflation)
 
JaggerPlate said:
That's why I wish the AMA would back the transparency act. There are some decent players behind it, but the nursing lobby is OBVIOUSLY powerful.
Click to expand...
Cheer up, your wish has been granted :D
AMA Announces Support for Healthcare Truth and Transparency Act
Nation’s largest physician organization says patients deserve to know who is providing their care

For immediate release:
May 13, 2010

CHICAGO – Today, the American Medical Association (AMA) announced its support for the Healthcare Truth and Transparency Act (H.R. 5295). The bill, introduced by Rep. John Sullivan (R-OK) and Rep. David Scott (D-GA), will ensure all health care professionals fully and accurately inform patients of their qualifications and training.

“Patients deserve to know who is providing their care and the Healthcare Truth and Transparency Act will help empower them with the knowledge they need to make an informed decision about who delivers their medical care,” said AMA President J. James Rohack, MD.

This bill will also help alleviate patient confusion over who is a medical doctor (MD/DO) and who is not. A nationwide survey conducted in 2008 found that there is increasing patient confusion about the many types of health care providers patients see during a medical visit – including physicians, technicians, nurses, physician assistants and other allied providers. More than 90 percent of those surveyed said they want accurate information about who is providing their care.

“Many patients believe they are seeing a medical doctor when they are not, and research overwhelmingly shows that they want to know if their health care provider is a physician, a nurse, a technician or another medical professional,” said Dr. Rohack. “Patients are demanding truth and transparency in the delivery of health care, and they deserve nothing less.”

# # #

Media Contact:
Lisa Lecas
American Medical Association
312-464-5980
[email protected]
Click to expand...
Healthcare Truth and Transparency Act of 2010

- Reps. Sullivan and Scott Introduce Bipartisan Healthcare Truth and Transparency Act

- Healthcare Truth and Transparency Act of 2010 [Physician Association Response]

- AMA Announces Support for Healthcare Truth and Transparency Act

- Healthcare Truth and Transparency Act of 2010 [American Nurses Association Response]
 
Nice idea. It's worded pretty vaguely though. It doesn't even prohibit an NP from calling herself Dr. Nurse. That might be acceptable if, for example, she has NP on her name tag. It's mostly about advertising for services, which I don't think is a very big part of the problem.
 
I don't know... It seems like a lot of the "advertising" or propaganda being put out there by the ANA against this act is that NPs and MDs/DOs fill the "same role" and provide "equivalent services", thereby making NPs equivalent to DOs.

In true double-speak, however, the ANA also claims that the bill is unnecessary because nursing boards regulate nurses from claiming more training than they actually have and representing their training as equivalent to physicians....

So, its not okay if an individual NP claims equivalence, but it IS okay if the ANA as a whole claims equivalence?:confused:
 
Will this bill inhibit physicians who, for example, do a fellowship in "cosmetic surgery" from the American Academy of Cosmetic Surgery and then advertise as a BC cosmetic surgeon?? I mean technically, this isn't an ABMS or ABOMS field, so claiming BC could be against transparency, etc???

Just curious. Otherwise, I agree that it is kind of vague ... but I think it's a good thing all around. Especially if it lets the NPs know that their BS isn't going through without backlash.
 
Get a load of this lady who gets a doctorate in philosophy just so people call her Dr Teri Wurmser in her admin position, so transparent, oh and from adelphia

http://www.njsna.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=336
 
This is crazy, i think America known for high quality medicine will end up with nurses marauding as primary care physicians which will be a disaster for both the health care industry due to lawsuits and primary care physicians. The problem is everything is simply reduced to money in the US. Yes it is cheaper to see a nurse but there is a huge difference between a nurse and a doctor. It is like consulting a paralegal instead of a lawyer. The paralegal might sometimes get it right and give you the same advice a lawyer would but people see a lawyer because nobody wants to take the risk.

Here in belgium, we have senior nurses who operate independent of doctors, but their jobs are specific. A doctor refers you to a cancer nurse or any other specialized nurse with her own practice after you are diagnosed with cancer for example. All the nurse does is just follow the procedure the doctors laid for her, she comforts the patient, if there are wounds she cares for them etc, there are also end of life nurses with their own practice, other nurses take care of surgery patients after they leave the hospital at their own practice. Instead of wasting the doctors time with procedural stuff, a nurse does it, while the doctor concentrates on more complicated cases. There is no jealousy because nurses who happily earn about a third of what doctors earn and they seem to be satisfied with it because it is more than the average salary in the country.

In hospitals the nursing profession is traditional; i mean we have 'the yes doctor type of nurses'. nurses have a lot of respect for doctors even interns, they stay away from diagnosis and concentrate on following the doctors orders. Midwives are powerfull here and can have their own practice but they still earn a lot less than a ob/gyn, they do procedural stuff specified by an ob/gyn.
 
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I've read through this entire thread and coming across this information with no prior knowledge of the issue, I have to say I'm with Glade and others with similar opinions.

Anyone that expects equal pay and equal respect, must accept equal responsibility for their actions and must earn equal qualification.

If someone is let's say, is intelligent enough and has a strong enough work ethic to get through medical school (which in my opinion is doubtful), but CHOOSES to take the easy route and train to become a DNP, why in the world should they be awarded equal pay and admiration? Are we really rewarding laziness now? Well I would like to award my sister, who is currently bartending and refuses to even get her GED, the prestige and income a doctor makes. After all, she pours a mean beer and is a wonderful shoulder to cry on. She makes people feel better everyday. And when she doesn't know how to answer a question, she refers her clientele to someone else.

Tongue in cheek, but point made.
 
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elenaP said:
I've read through this entire thread and coming across this information with no prior knowledge of the issue, I have to say I'm with Glade and others with similar opinions.

Anyone that expects equal pay and equal respect, must accept equal responsibility for their actions and must earn equal qualification.

If someone is let's say, is intelligent enough and has a strong enough work ethic to get through medical school (which in my opinion is doubtful), but CHOOSES to take the easy route and train to become a DNP, why in the world should they be awarded equal pay and admiration? Are we really rewarding laziness now? Well I would like to award my sister, who is currently and refuses to even get her GED, the prestige and income a doctor makes. After all, she pours a mean beer and is a wonderful shoulder to cry on. She makes people feel better everyday. And when she doesn't know how to answer a question, she refers her clientele to someone else.

Tongue in cheek, but point made.
Click to expand...
:thumbup:
 
“Many patients believe they are seeing a medical doctor when they are not, and research overwhelmingly shows that they want to know if their health care provider is a physician, a nurse, a technician or another medical professional,” said Dr. Rohack. “Patients are demanding truth and transparency in the delivery of health care, and they deserve nothing less.”

But how do I keep them from calling me "Doctor", even when I insist I am the nurse?

But seriously, have any of you actually SPOKEN to an NP? I am in an NP program, and I don't think any folks in the program are these power-crazed types who want to get a DNP, be called "doctor", set up their own practices, and grind physicians into the dust. I personally will be VERY happy to have a supervising physician (or collaborative, or whatever it is).

The NPs in my hospital system tend to take care of a lot of the chronic patients the docs don't want to see, or do the "cleanup" work for the doc (scut), such as admitting and discharge orders, orders for Tylenol, home care, PT/OT, etc etc. None of them seem to want to take over their employers role.

I would suggest some of you actually speak to PAs and NPs, find out their viewpoints, and not just work yourselves up after reading some pro-NP new article somewhere.

Oldiebutgoodie
 
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