Top 10 vs. Avg. school...

[SunnyS81]

I'm a bit biased since I'm going to a top ten program next year, and I even withdrew my application from my state school, however:

1) There aren't that many medical schools so it is likely residency programs have some idea about every school. In contrast, applying to medical school from a random school does cause people to raise their eyebrows (trust me.....I've experienced it at every interview although I'm at a top flight engineering school).

2) Here is some food for thought. I've gotten into a top ten program, but I don't consider myself the smartest person in the world. However, people who I know without a doubt are smarter than me and consistently outperform me in classes can't get into top 30 schools and are at our state school (MCG). Given, they are at the top of the class at their medical school, it is a false assumption to assume you'll be doing well if you go to a lesser school.

As for my own decision, I just aspire to be the best physician I can. I didn't settle for anything but the best for undergrad, and I'm not about to go to lower my standards for medical school. Plus, I haven't paid a dime for my undergrad, so I figure I can afford to splurge for medical school. If it comes down to getting a competitive residency, I feel more comfortable thinking I have a shot at it if I'm in the top quarter or half of my class at a top ten school than the top 5% at a lower-tier school.

just my $.02.

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[Dukie01]

OK, a nonhypothetical case, coming from someone who actually has been in this situation:
When I was deciding where to go to medical school, my final two choices were a top 5 school or my state school (top 50). Much to the surprise of the Duke premed advising center, I chose to go to my state school, for a variety of reasons. Primary among them was an unwillingness to let other people decide what was best for me. Years of trying to get into the best private school, then into the best college, then the best med school, really got me thinking, particularly as I saw people around me making decisions based on someone else's perceptions of what was best, rather than what was best for them. Eventually many of these people were very unhappy (someone I know who really bought into the game ended up having a nervous breakdown). It's so easy in this process to forget about what you really want, and what makes you happy. What I realized made me happy was an extremely supportive and noncompetitive school environment. After four years of weed-out classes, where the number of people in the premed program went from about 800 to about 150-200, I was really sick of always viewing other premeds as the enemy, and being viewed by them as such. I chose to attend a medical school where everyone views each other as future colleagues, rather than an obstacle to oneself's getting ahead. I am not saying that this cooperative attitude does not exist at top 5 or 10 schools, but my perception during my interviews was that it existed to a lesser degree. Hence my decision was made fairly easy. Maybe for you it's something else that is important in making a decision, but I would suggest that you really look inside yourself and see what it is for you. If it is the name on the diploma on the wall, so be it; if you thrive on being "the best," go for it. Just make sure
you are doing things because you want to do it, not because you
think it will make other people happy.

On a side note- for those of you who think that if you don't go to a top 10 school and instead go to a "mediocre" school, that you won't be "pushed"... think again. It's hard no matter where you go, and if you go in with that attitude you are in for a very unpleasant surprise. Everyone has to learn the same material for the USMLE. True, the same amount of effort may put you in a higher position in your class in a "mediocre" school... but it may not. Because you can't make assumptions about who will be in your class... it might be people who also chose to go to the "mediocre" school, whatver their reasons (and it's probably not because they are "afraid of failure" or "risk averse"...) Medical schools everywhere are filled with talented and bright people... the first day of school for me felt like that scene in the movie Legally Blonde, where all the students tell their accomplishments (e.g. the line "I then finished my PhD in Microbiology and spent the next year deworming orphans in Rwanda.") I would just try to keep an open mind about people and not make generalizations about them and about how you "stack up" without mpre experience...


Danielle MSII

 

[souljah1]

Originally posted by Dukie01
OK, a nonhypothetical case, coming from someone who actually has been in this situation:
When I was deciding where to go to medical school, my final two choices were a top 5 school or my state school (top 50). Much to the surprise of the Duke premed advising center, I chose to go to my state school, for a variety of reasons. Primary among them was an unwillingness to let other people decide what was best for me. Years of trying to get into the best private school, then into the best college, then the best med school, really got me thinking, particularly as I saw people around me making decisions based on someone else's perceptions of what was best, rather than what was best for them. Eventually many of these people were very unhappy (someone I know who really bought into the game ended up having a nervous breakdown). It's so easy in this process to forget about what you really want, and what makes you happy. What I realized made me happy was an extremely supportive and noncompetitive school environment. After four years of weed-out classes, where the number of people in the premed program went from about 800 to about 150-200, I was really sick of always viewing other premeds as the enemy, and being viewed by them as such. I chose to attend a medical school where everyone views each other as future colleagues, rather than an obstacle to oneself's getting ahead. I am not saying that this cooperative attitude does not exist at top 5 or 10 schools, but my perception during my interviews was that it existed to a lesser degree. Hence my decision was made fairly easy. Maybe for you it's something else that is important in making a decision, but I would suggest that you really look inside yourself and see what it is for you. If it is the name on the diploma on the wall, so be it; if you thrive on being "the best," go for it. Just make sure
you are doing things because you want to do it, not because you
think it will make other people happy.

On a side note- for those of you who think that if you don't go to a top 10 school and instead go to a "mediocre" school, that you won't be "pushed"... think again. It's hard no matter where you go, and if you go in with that attitude you are in for a very unpleasant surprise. Everyone has to learn the same material for the USMLE. True, the same amount of effort may put you in a higher position in your class in a "mediocre" school... but it may not. Because you can't make assumptions about who will be in your class... it might be people who also chose to go to the "mediocre" school, whatver their reasons (and it's probably not because they are "afraid of failure" or "risk averse"...) Medical schools everywhere are filled with talented and bright people... the first day of school for me felt like that scene in the movie Legally Blonde, where all the students tell their accomplishments (e.g. the line "I then finished my PhD in Microbiology and spent the next year deworming orphans in Rwanda.") I would just try to keep an open mind about people and not make generalizations about them and about how you "stack up" without mpre experience...


Danielle MSII

Well said!!! I also think that your own happiness should be your number one priority if you are given the great opportunity to choose between schools. For me, the last place I wanted to attend was a school that was caught up in tradition, in prestige, and putting its reputation on a higher pedestal than the well-being of its students. Although it is difficult to get a deep sense of a school's feel on interviews, it was obvious that some schools had priorities and methods of operation that were not in line with what I was looking for. Some of them were state schools, some of them were private schools. For me, I think I am very fortunate to attend a school that is very dedicated to their student's well-being, and also has a student body that is still amazing me to this day.

Going to a top ten and being mediocre versus going to a lower-tier school and being on top is not gauranteed. I think it depends a lot on the curriculum. We are P/F the first two years (and there is no secret rank to help determine who gets AOA), and the only grades that go on our transcript and determine who gets AOA are the clerkship grades, which have different levels of Honors, Pass, and Fail. Going to a top 10 school (or any school for that matter) that had grades would make my experience absolutely different. Having grades fosters that ridiculous competition that I found so silly in undergrad. Another thing I'd like to bring up..many residency directors may look at a 'mediocre' student at a 'top school' very similarly to the person who was at the 'top' of a 'lower tier' school. They might think that the person at the 'better' school would have been at the top at a lower school. I don't think that is true at all, but these sorts of generalizations may very well exist when it comes time to apply for residency. I looked at the residency match list for UCSF and was blown away. It seemed everyone got excellent residencies. Not only does UCSF favor its own, but we placed a great many students at fantastic hospitals. Names do count for something, but I don't think anyone's decision should be based primarily on the name of the institution.

 

[Rampant]

This is the same old argument over again.. Anyway, It's analagous to your undergraduate school and getting into medical school. It might matter a little bit if everything is equal, but it won't matter squat if you graduate from a state school and outperform your peers on the USMLE and/or class rank.. I know several people, including myself that have 3.9+ undergraduate grade point averages and strong mcats that decided to go to our state school early decision. We didn't particularly want to deal with academically anal people, and our state school, mcg, has an awesome program for the price. The school has an excellent residency placement considering the class size and they work to combat the reputation factor of the so called top-ten anyhow.. So four years from next fall, I expect be in the residency of my choice provided I work hard enough to get it. I'd much rather be at the top of my class at a state school with less than 50,000$ in debt.
One of the former admission officers at Emory actually told me the weight of reputation doesn't matter unless you are going into academic medicine.. Go figure...

 

[souljah1]

Originally posted by Rampant
This is the same old argument over again.. Anyway, It's analagous to your undergraduate school and getting into medical school. It might matter a little bit if everything is equal, but it won't matter squat if you graduate from a state school and outperform your peers on the USMLE and/or class rank.. I know several people, including myself that have 3.9+ undergraduate grade point averages and strong mcats that decided to go to our state school early decision. We didn't particularly want to deal with academically anal people, and our state school, mcg, has an awesome program for the price. The school has an excellent residency placement considering the class size and they work to combat the reputation factor of the so called top-ten anyhow.. So four years from next fall, I expect be in the residency of my choice provided I work hard enough to get it. I'd much rather be at the top of my class at a state school with less than 50,000$ in debt.
One of the former admission officers at Emory actually told me the weight of reputation doesn't matter unless you are going into academic medicine.. Go figure...

You make it seem like all 'top' schools are not state schools. I don't think that is true, especially if you are very interested in primary care. I guess California is not normal, in that its state school system is more difficult to get into than the majority of private schools out there. NO early decision here, and no gaurantees for someone with amazing numbers and qualifications. People in CA get looked at in a strange way for turning down schools like UCLA and UCSF, which run you about 11k/year to attend private institutions that run you over 30K/year.

 

[Rampant]

I guess you are right in that respect.. California's state schools are somewhat different in respect to that of other state schools.. They are definitely the exception rather than the status quo. Nonetheless, I have an advisor friend in San Diego that told me that California doesn't have room for its own students, and has to export a number of well qualified applicants to other schools around the nation. Weigh all factors, including personal, to consider wether you will be happy at the school, and not just US News and World Reports statistical ranking, which can be misleading to say the least.