Top 5 Mistakes Medical Students Make on their Radiology Elective

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RadsGuy

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Let me preface this by saying that I am a radiology attending who has been very involved in medical education throughout my career from resident, to fellow to now. I have worked at big academic centers as well as community programs and have spoken to many of my radiology friends about these issues. Also, this is just one man’s opinion so take this with a grain of salt, but here are the top 5 things I have seen completely tank ones chances on “audition” rotations:

1. Don’t be annoying.

I know this seems obvious, but this is actually much harder to do on a radiology rotation than on any other rotation. In fact, I’ve only seen a handful of people do this well. Talk enough to seem interested, but not so much that you’re interrupting the workflow. Ask some questions, but not too many. Make some jokes, but not too many. The problem is that there is no good way to be helpful to your radiology resident. In medicine or surgery or any other rotation, you can go see a patient, write a discharge summary, or do some other task to help lighten the load of your resident. In radiology, you can’t help them look at a CT or MRI and you can’t help them dictate the study. And if you’re sitting next to an R1 (1st yr radiology resident), chances are you’ve had just as much radiology training as they have so it’s essentially the blind leading the blind. Overall, your days on a radiology rotation will consist of you sitting behind one or two people who are working on a computer in a dark room, mostly ignoring you. The trick is to try not to fall asleep and walk that fine line of looking interested without coming off as eager beaver. I was interested in radiology during my 4th yr rotation and I was bored out of my mind, no joke. It’s like watching someone else play video games – not fun unless you’re doing it. And, the kicker is that if you ask “What’s that?” too many times, you’ll get blackballed from the program, even though it’s a very relevant question for you because chances are you’ve never been exposed to anything radiology related until now.

2. Don’t correct or point out things to your radiology resident.

More often than not you’ll get stuck next to an R1, which means that they have had 4yrs of medical school and 1yr of IM or Gen Surg under their belt (but zero radiology training). And if you’re the type of go-getter medical student who reads books on rotations to impress, you may know more than the person driving the car. It’s really hard to sit behind someone and watch them breeze over a finding or what you think is a real finding (but is actually not) and bite your tongue. The nice medical student just wants to helpfully point it out, but really really really try to resist the urge. It may work out and the R1 will be thankful you are there, but more often than not it will completely backfire and you will come off as a “one-upper”, especially if you do this in front of the attending. Correcting your R1 or “helpfully” pointing out their mistakes in front of their attending is an automatic blackball for you in that program. There is a subtle way to play dumb and point out something in a nonthreatening way, but you have a greater chance of hurting rather than helping yourself, so I’d just advise you to not do it.

3. Hygiene, Hygiene, Hygiene (Professionalism).

I cannot tell you how many times a medical student has worn too much cologne, too much perfume, or no deodorant. Sometimes I feel bad for them because no matter how brilliant that person is, that is the only thing that people will remember about him or her. I’ve even seen attendings who are supposedly “allergic”, ask medical students to leave or sit 5ft back from them at all times. Kind of hard to interact if you’re sitting across the room from the action. At the end of the day you are auditioning for a role to sit next to someone in a small dark room 10hrs a day for 4yrs. Would you want to sit next to someone who has not discovered the wonders of deodorant? In summary, no cologne, no perfume, yes deodorant/anti-perspirant.

4. Don’t be late and don’t fall asleep.

Yes, radiology is somewhat of a vacation rotation for most people, even the ones going into the field. You typically show up at 8am, take a seat and hang out until about 1-3pm when the resident next to you lets you go home early because you’ve sat around long enough for the day. But just because it’s relaxed, it doesn’t mean that you can show up late, fall asleep, or ask to go home early. That gives the impression that you think their profession is unimportant and their time is not valuable enough to take seriously. Be professional.

5. Work hard on your end of rotation project.

We don’t ask much of you during your rotation. In fact, it’s mostly half days worth of work. So, when we ask that you give us a meaningful 5min powerpoint presentation at the end of 4wks, don’t blow it off. It’s insulting when medical students slap something together last minute because we know how much time you’ve had to prepare for this project. We can tell who has put in the time and who hasn’t. There is so much information out there and you can actually teach us something we didn’t know. Do some research, read some papers, present the latest papers on the topic from a credible radiology journal. Put together something valuable on the topic instead of presenting the surface/Wikipedia facts on the subject. This project is another great way to interact with attendings and residents in a meaningful way besides sitting in the background and every hour asking, “what is that?” or “what does that mean?”.


EDIT:
After reading some responses, I think there is some confusion as to why you should or should not do a radiology elective besides the Audition Rotation reason.

You should NOT do a radiology elective if you think you will learn how to read radiology exams. Honestly, that’s kind of insulting to the profession. I don’t show up to surgery saying “well, I’m going to be here for a couple months, maybe I can at least learn how to do an appendectomy” or “well, I’m on ICU, maybe I can learn how to control a ventilator”. That is flawed thinking because even if you learn part of those two tasks, you will forget it within 1 month after being off rotation. Do you think I remember anything I learned on my Psych rotation or for my Step 1? Nope - Krebs cycle was brain-dumped as soon as that test was over. It’s use it or lose it for anything you do in medicine, including radiology. Also, it takes 6 years of residency and fellowship to be a radiologist and contrary to popular belief, chest x-rays are actually the hardest thing to read, not the easiest. CTs are easy. MRIs can be easy. It’s either there or it isn’t and you either see it or you don’t. With x-rays, the image is made up of overlapping shadows, there’s much more artifact and the findings are quite subtle.

Instead, you should focus on learning what radiology is and how to appropriately utilize it. Most physicians order imaging routinely throughout their day, but no one teaches you how or what you should order and how you should progress (cheapest to most expensive/invasive). It’s a ~150 million dollar/year problem with respect to inappropriate utilization of hospital resources/medical waste and unnecessary patient radiation. You should try to learn when to order imaging, what its limitations are, what it can tell you, what it can’t tell you, when to give IV contrast, when to give Oral contrast, when to turn off Heparin or reverse anticoagulation or give platelets prior to a radiology procedure, what a Bone Scan/Gallium Scan/Tagged RBC Scan (really any nuclear medicine exam) is, when you should order an MRI instead of a CT, when you should order a CTA instead of a CT with contrast, etc. If you ask those types of questions, not only will you impress the other people on rotation, you’ll actually learn something useful for your career, whatever you go into. I can’t tell you how many phone calls I get every single day from attendings asking the same questions about IV vs no IV contrast or what to order for XX diagnosis, can Interventional Radiology do this or that, and etc.

The most helpful website I’ve come across for this type of information is www.radsconsult.com. It’s free. There’s no ads on it. Type in any symptom or diagnosis and it’ll tell you exactly what to exam to order. It has every radiology exam and interventional radiology procedure and tells you all the indications of when one would order such an exam, with all the variations of with and without IV and/or Oral contrast.

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Thanks for this. While the tips are simple/straightforward , the insight is really valuable.


Hope more of these types of threads pop up
 
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Let me preface this by saying that I am a radiology attending who has been very involved in medical education throughout my career from resident, to fellow to now. I have worked at big academic centers as well as community programs and have spoken to many of my radiology friends about these issues. Also, this is just one man’s opinion so take this with a grain of salt, but here are the top 5 things I have seen completely tank ones chances on “audition” rotations:

1. Don’t be annoying.

I know this seems obvious, but this is actually much harder to do on a radiology rotation than on any other rotation. In fact, I’ve only seen a handful of people do this well. Talk enough to seem interested, but not so much that you’re interrupting the workflow. Ask some questions, but not too many. Make some jokes, but not too many. The problem is that there is no good way to be helpful to your radiology resident. In medicine or surgery or any other rotation, you can go see a patient, write a discharge summary, or do some other task to help lighten the load of your resident. In radiology, you can’t help them look at a CT or MRI and you can’t help them dictate the study. And if you’re sitting next to an R1 (1st yr radiology resident), chances are you’ve had just as much radiology training as they have so it’s essentially the blind leading the blind. Overall, your days on a radiology rotation will consist of you sitting behind one or two people who are working on a computer in a dark room, mostly ignoring you. The trick is to try not to fall asleep and walk that fine line of looking interested without coming off as eager beaver. I was interested in radiology during my 4th yr rotation and I was bored out of my mind, no joke. It’s like watching someone else play video games – not fun unless you’re doing it. And, the kicker is that if you ask “What’s that?” too many times, you’ll get blackballed from the program, even though it’s a very relevant question for you because chances are you’ve never been exposed to anything radiology related until now.

2. Don’t correct or point out things to your radiology resident.

More often than not you’ll get stuck next to an R1, which means that they have had 4yrs of medical school and 1yr of IM or Gen Surg under their belt (but zero radiology training). And if you’re the type of go-getter medical student who reads books on rotations to impress, you may know more than the person driving the car. It’s really hard to sit behind someone and watch them breeze over a finding or what you think is a real finding (but is actually not) and bite your tongue. The nice medical student just wants to helpfully point it out, but really really really try to resist the urge. It may work out and the R1 will be thankful you are there, but more often than not it will completely backfire and you will come off as a “one-upper”, especially if you do this in front of the attending. Correcting your R1 or “helpfully” pointing out their mistakes in front of their attending is an automatic blackball for you in that program. There is a subtle way to play dumb and point out something in a nonthreatening way, but you have a greater chance of hurting rather than helping yourself, so I’d just advise you to not do it.

3. Hygiene, Hygiene, Hygiene (Professionalism).

I cannot tell you how many times a medical student has worn too much cologne, too much perfume, or no deodorant. Sometimes I feel bad for them because no matter how brilliant that person is, that is the only thing that people will remember about him or her. I’ve even seen attendings who are supposedly “allergic”, ask medical students to leave or sit 5ft back from them at all times. Kind of hard to interact if you’re sitting across the room from the action. At the end of the day you are auditioning for a role to sit next to someone in a small dark room 10hrs a day for 4yrs. Would you want to sit next to someone who has not discovered the wonders of deodorant? In summary, no cologne, no perfume, yes deodorant/anti-perspirant.

4. Don’t be late and don’t fall asleep.

Yes, radiology is somewhat of a vacation rotation for most people, even the ones going into the field. You typically show up at 8am, take a seat and hang out until about 1-3pm when the resident next to you lets you go home early because you’ve sat around long enough for the day. But just because it’s relaxed, it doesn’t mean that you can show up late, fall asleep, or ask to go home early. That gives the impression that you think their profession is unimportant and their time is not valuable enough to take seriously. Be professional.

5. Work hard on your end of rotation project.

We don’t ask much of you during your rotation. In fact, it’s mostly half days worth of work. So, when we ask that you give us a meaningful 5min powerpoint presentation at the end of 4wks, don’t blow it off. It’s insulting when medical students slap something together last minute because we know how much time you’ve had to prepare for this project. We can tell who has put in the time and who hasn’t. There is so much information out there and you can actually teach us something we didn’t know. Do some research, read some papers, present the latest papers on the topic from a credible radiology journal. Put together something valuable on the topic instead of presenting the surface/Wikipedia facts on the subject. This project is another great way to interact with attendings and residents in a meaningful way besides sitting in the background and every hour asking, “what is that?” or “what does that mean?”.
Moderators, please sticky!!!

In particular #4 applies to ALL rotations. I've got several students who were in deep **** earlier this year because they didn't understand that being on rotation is being on the job, and you don't show up late for jobs. This is now a common problem in both clinical years and in residency, because for most med students nowadays, residency will be their first employment ever.
 
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Let me preface this by saying that I am a radiology attending who has been very involved in medical education throughout my career from resident, to fellow to now. I have worked at big academic centers as well as community programs and have spoken to many of my radiology friends about these issues. Also, this is just one man’s opinion so take this with a grain of salt, but here are the top 5 things I have seen completely tank ones chances on “audition” rotations:

1. Don’t be annoying.

I know this seems obvious, but this is actually much harder to do on a radiology rotation than on any other rotation. In fact, I’ve only seen a handful of people do this well. Talk enough to seem interested, but not so much that you’re interrupting the workflow. Ask some questions, but not too many. Make some jokes, but not too many. The problem is that there is no good way to be helpful to your radiology resident. In medicine or surgery or any other rotation, you can go see a patient, write a discharge summary, or do some other task to help lighten the load of your resident. In radiology, you can’t help them look at a CT or MRI and you can’t help them dictate the study. And if you’re sitting next to an R1 (1st yr radiology resident), chances are you’ve had just as much radiology training as they have so it’s essentially the blind leading the blind. Overall, your days on a radiology rotation will consist of you sitting behind one or two people who are working on a computer in a dark room, mostly ignoring you. The trick is to try not to fall asleep and walk that fine line of looking interested without coming off as eager beaver. I was interested in radiology during my 4th yr rotation and I was bored out of my mind, no joke. It’s like watching someone else play video games – not fun unless you’re doing it. And, the kicker is that if you ask “What’s that?” too many times, you’ll get blackballed from the program, even though it’s a very relevant question for you because chances are you’ve never been exposed to anything radiology related until now.

2. Don’t correct or point out things to your radiology resident.

More often than not you’ll get stuck next to an R1, which means that they have had 4yrs of medical school and 1yr of IM or Gen Surg under their belt (but zero radiology training). And if you’re the type of go-getter medical student who reads books on rotations to impress, you may know more than the person driving the car. It’s really hard to sit behind someone and watch them breeze over a finding or what you think is a real finding (but is actually not) and bite your tongue. The nice medical student just wants to helpfully point it out, but really really really try to resist the urge. It may work out and the R1 will be thankful you are there, but more often than not it will completely backfire and you will come off as a “one-upper”, especially if you do this in front of the attending. Correcting your R1 or “helpfully” pointing out their mistakes in front of their attending is an automatic blackball for you in that program. There is a subtle way to play dumb and point out something in a nonthreatening way, but you have a greater chance of hurting rather than helping yourself, so I’d just advise you to not do it.

3. Hygiene, Hygiene, Hygiene (Professionalism).

I cannot tell you how many times a medical student has worn too much cologne, too much perfume, or no deodorant. Sometimes I feel bad for them because no matter how brilliant that person is, that is the only thing that people will remember about him or her. I’ve even seen attendings who are supposedly “allergic”, ask medical students to leave or sit 5ft back from them at all times. Kind of hard to interact if you’re sitting across the room from the action. At the end of the day you are auditioning for a role to sit next to someone in a small dark room 10hrs a day for 4yrs. Would you want to sit next to someone who has not discovered the wonders of deodorant? In summary, no cologne, no perfume, yes deodorant/anti-perspirant.

4. Don’t be late and don’t fall asleep.

Yes, radiology is somewhat of a vacation rotation for most people, even the ones going into the field. You typically show up at 8am, take a seat and hang out until about 1-3pm when the resident next to you lets you go home early because you’ve sat around long enough for the day. But just because it’s relaxed, it doesn’t mean that you can show up late, fall asleep, or ask to go home early. That gives the impression that you think their profession is unimportant and their time is not valuable enough to take seriously. Be professional.

5. Work hard on your end of rotation project.

We don’t ask much of you during your rotation. In fact, it’s mostly half days worth of work. So, when we ask that you give us a meaningful 5min powerpoint presentation at the end of 4wks, don’t blow it off. It’s insulting when medical students slap something together last minute because we know how much time you’ve had to prepare for this project. We can tell who has put in the time and who hasn’t. There is so much information out there and you can actually teach us something we didn’t know. Do some research, read some papers, present the latest papers on the topic from a credible radiology journal. Put together something valuable on the topic instead of presenting the surface/Wikipedia facts on the subject. This project is another great way to interact with attendings and residents in a meaningful way besides sitting in the background and every hour asking, “what is that?” or “what does that mean?”.
how important would you say audition rotations are for radiology?
 
how important would you say audition rotations are for radiology?

Mixed bag. Because it is so hard to impress on a radiology rotation, you have a greater chance of hurting yourself than helping yourself. So, proceed with caution. If you do go on one, focus on genuine conversations about love, life, self-abusiveness, etc. rather than just radiology. Most students don't possess the vocabulary to meaningfully and intelligently communicate about radiology matters with attendings and senior residents. If you try, it will be obvious that you are BSing them bc make no mistake, you are not the smartest person in the room and they know more big words than you do (not as a matter of intelligence, but just as a matter of level of training). So, not that important in my opinion.
 
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Mixed bag. Because it is so hard to impress on a radiology rotation, you have a greater chance of hurting yourself than helping yourself. So, proceed with caution. If you do go on one, focus on genuine conversations about love, life, self-abusiveness, etc. rather than just radiology. Most students don't possess the vocabulary to meaningfully and intelligently communicate about radiology matters with attendings and senior residents. If you try, it will be obvious that you are BSing them bc make no mistake, you are not the smartest person in the room and they know more big words than you do (not as a matter of intelligence, but just as a matter of level of training). So, not that important in my opinion.
Not a radiologist myself but I would imagine it's only really beneficial for the person looking to completely relocate (e.g. the person who grew up on the east coast, went to college and med school on the east coast, now hoping to match on the west coast)

Thoughts?
 
Let me preface this by saying that I am a radiology attending who has been very involved in medical education throughout my career from resident, to fellow to now. I have worked at big academic centers as well as community programs and have spoken to many of my radiology friends about these issues. Also, this is just one man’s opinion so take this with a grain of salt, but here are the top 5 things I have seen completely tank ones chances on “audition” rotations:

1. Don’t be annoying.

I know this seems obvious, but this is actually much harder to do on a radiology rotation than on any other rotation. In fact, I’ve only seen a handful of people do this well. Talk enough to seem interested, but not so much that you’re interrupting the workflow. Ask some questions, but not too many. Make some jokes, but not too many. The problem is that there is no good way to be helpful to your radiology resident. In medicine or surgery or any other rotation, you can go see a patient, write a discharge summary, or do some other task to help lighten the load of your resident. In radiology, you can’t help them look at a CT or MRI and you can’t help them dictate the study. And if you’re sitting next to an R1 (1st yr radiology resident), chances are you’ve had just as much radiology training as they have so it’s essentially the blind leading the blind. Overall, your days on a radiology rotation will consist of you sitting behind one or two people who are working on a computer in a dark room, mostly ignoring you. The trick is to try not to fall asleep and walk that fine line of looking interested without coming off as eager beaver. I was interested in radiology during my 4th yr rotation and I was bored out of my mind, no joke. It’s like watching someone else play video games – not fun unless you’re doing it. And, the kicker is that if you ask “What’s that?” too many times, you’ll get blackballed from the program, even though it’s a very relevant question for you because chances are you’ve never been exposed to anything radiology related until now.

2. Don’t correct or point out things to your radiology resident.

More often than not you’ll get stuck next to an R1, which means that they have had 4yrs of medical school and 1yr of IM or Gen Surg under their belt (but zero radiology training). And if you’re the type of go-getter medical student who reads books on rotations to impress, you may know more than the person driving the car. It’s really hard to sit behind someone and watch them breeze over a finding or what you think is a real finding (but is actually not) and bite your tongue. The nice medical student just wants to helpfully point it out, but really really really try to resist the urge. It may work out and the R1 will be thankful you are there, but more often than not it will completely backfire and you will come off as a “one-upper”, especially if you do this in front of the attending. Correcting your R1 or “helpfully” pointing out their mistakes in front of their attending is an automatic blackball for you in that program. There is a subtle way to play dumb and point out something in a nonthreatening way, but you have a greater chance of hurting rather than helping yourself, so I’d just advise you to not do it.

3. Hygiene, Hygiene, Hygiene (Professionalism).

I cannot tell you how many times a medical student has worn too much cologne, too much perfume, or no deodorant. Sometimes I feel bad for them because no matter how brilliant that person is, that is the only thing that people will remember about him or her. I’ve even seen attendings who are supposedly “allergic”, ask medical students to leave or sit 5ft back from them at all times. Kind of hard to interact if you’re sitting across the room from the action. At the end of the day you are auditioning for a role to sit next to someone in a small dark room 10hrs a day for 4yrs. Would you want to sit next to someone who has not discovered the wonders of deodorant? In summary, no cologne, no perfume, yes deodorant/anti-perspirant.

4. Don’t be late and don’t fall asleep.

Yes, radiology is somewhat of a vacation rotation for most people, even the ones going into the field. You typically show up at 8am, take a seat and hang out until about 1-3pm when the resident next to you lets you go home early because you’ve sat around long enough for the day. But just because it’s relaxed, it doesn’t mean that you can show up late, fall asleep, or ask to go home early. That gives the impression that you think their profession is unimportant and their time is not valuable enough to take seriously. Be professional.

5. Work hard on your end of rotation project.

We don’t ask much of you during your rotation. In fact, it’s mostly half days worth of work. So, when we ask that you give us a meaningful 5min powerpoint presentation at the end of 4wks, don’t blow it off. It’s insulting when medical students slap something together last minute because we know how much time you’ve had to prepare for this project. We can tell who has put in the time and who hasn’t. There is so much information out there and you can actually teach us something we didn’t know. Do some research, read some papers, present the latest papers on the topic from a credible radiology journal. Put together something valuable on the topic instead of presenting the surface/Wikipedia facts on the subject. This project is another great way to interact with attendings and residents in a meaningful way besides sitting in the background and every hour asking, “what is that?” or “what does that mean?”.
My third year rotation site likely won’t have a rads residency there so I’ll have to audition. How long should this be? Honestly, 1 month really seems crazy considering how little I’ll know about the field and the fact that I’ll just be sitting there all day. It really just seems like a lot of time for them to get sick of me.
 
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Not a radiologist myself but I would imagine it's only really beneficial for the person looking to completely relocate (e.g. the person who grew up on the east coast, went to college and med school on the east coast, now hoping to match on the west coast)

Thoughts?

To break into a region where you have no other connections, yes, it can be potentially helpful. Interviews do get extended to away rotators.

But you need to be on your A-game and know how to read a room and a resident/fellow/attending so you don't annoy them. If you're great at social dynamics, it's huge bonus. When my colleagues and I are sitting together in a room, it's nice to have someone you can bounce a conversation or several conversations with. It's one of the (many) things I enjoy about radiology and a big reason why I look forward to coming in the next day.

I personally didn't do any aways and matched just fine.
 
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So is the myth of outsourcing really a myth?
 
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Let me preface this by saying that I am a radiology attending who has been very involved in medical education throughout my career from resident, to fellow to now. I have worked at big academic centers as well as community programs and have spoken to many of my radiology friends about these issues. Also, this is just one man’s opinion so take this with a grain of salt, but here are the top 5 things I have seen completely tank ones chances on “audition” rotations:

1. Don’t be annoying.

I know this seems obvious, but this is actually much harder to do on a radiology rotation than on any other rotation. In fact, I’ve only seen a handful of people do this well. Talk enough to seem interested, but not so much that you’re interrupting the workflow. Ask some questions, but not too many. Make some jokes, but not too many. The problem is that there is no good way to be helpful to your radiology resident. In medicine or surgery or any other rotation, you can go see a patient, write a discharge summary, or do some other task to help lighten the load of your resident. In radiology, you can’t help them look at a CT or MRI and you can’t help them dictate the study. And if you’re sitting next to an R1 (1st yr radiology resident), chances are you’ve had just as much radiology training as they have so it’s essentially the blind leading the blind. Overall, your days on a radiology rotation will consist of you sitting behind one or two people who are working on a computer in a dark room, mostly ignoring you. The trick is to try not to fall asleep and walk that fine line of looking interested without coming off as eager beaver. I was interested in radiology during my 4th yr rotation and I was bored out of my mind, no joke. It’s like watching someone else play video games – not fun unless you’re doing it. And, the kicker is that if you ask “What’s that?” too many times, you’ll get blackballed from the program, even though it’s a very relevant question for you because chances are you’ve never been exposed to anything radiology related until now.

2. Don’t correct or point out things to your radiology resident.

More often than not you’ll get stuck next to an R1, which means that they have had 4yrs of medical school and 1yr of IM or Gen Surg under their belt (but zero radiology training). And if you’re the type of go-getter medical student who reads books on rotations to impress, you may know more than the person driving the car. It’s really hard to sit behind someone and watch them breeze over a finding or what you think is a real finding (but is actually not) and bite your tongue. The nice medical student just wants to helpfully point it out, but really really really try to resist the urge. It may work out and the R1 will be thankful you are there, but more often than not it will completely backfire and you will come off as a “one-upper”, especially if you do this in front of the attending. Correcting your R1 or “helpfully” pointing out their mistakes in front of their attending is an automatic blackball for you in that program. There is a subtle way to play dumb and point out something in a nonthreatening way, but you have a greater chance of hurting rather than helping yourself, so I’d just advise you to not do it.

3. Hygiene, Hygiene, Hygiene (Professionalism).

I cannot tell you how many times a medical student has worn too much cologne, too much perfume, or no deodorant. Sometimes I feel bad for them because no matter how brilliant that person is, that is the only thing that people will remember about him or her. I’ve even seen attendings who are supposedly “allergic”, ask medical students to leave or sit 5ft back from them at all times. Kind of hard to interact if you’re sitting across the room from the action. At the end of the day you are auditioning for a role to sit next to someone in a small dark room 10hrs a day for 4yrs. Would you want to sit next to someone who has not discovered the wonders of deodorant? In summary, no cologne, no perfume, yes deodorant/anti-perspirant.

4. Don’t be late and don’t fall asleep.

Yes, radiology is somewhat of a vacation rotation for most people, even the ones going into the field. You typically show up at 8am, take a seat and hang out until about 1-3pm when the resident next to you lets you go home early because you’ve sat around long enough for the day. But just because it’s relaxed, it doesn’t mean that you can show up late, fall asleep, or ask to go home early. That gives the impression that you think their profession is unimportant and their time is not valuable enough to take seriously. Be professional.

5. Work hard on your end of rotation project.

We don’t ask much of you during your rotation. In fact, it’s mostly half days worth of work. So, when we ask that you give us a meaningful 5min powerpoint presentation at the end of 4wks, don’t blow it off. It’s insulting when medical students slap something together last minute because we know how much time you’ve had to prepare for this project. We can tell who has put in the time and who hasn’t. There is so much information out there and you can actually teach us something we didn’t know. Do some research, read some papers, present the latest papers on the topic from a credible radiology journal. Put together something valuable on the topic instead of presenting the surface/Wikipedia facts on the subject. This project is another great way to interact with attendings and residents in a meaningful way besides sitting in the background and every hour asking, “what is that?” or “what does that mean?”.
These tips are just excellent all around. It mostly focuses on the social aspects of doing well on a rotation, but I find a lot of people need just that anywhere. So thanks for this.
 
how important would you say audition rotations are for radiology?
With good stats, audition rotations are a waste of time. There is literally no way you can help. Even with borderline stats, audition rotations are a waste of time.
 
With good stats, audition rotations are a waste of time. There is literally no way you can help. Even with borderline stats, audition rotations are a waste of time.

I am being serious when I say that I think if you upload a photo of Jesus to your profile, people will be more receptive to what you say
 
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With good stats, audition rotations are a waste of time. There is literally no way you can help. Even with borderline stats, audition rotations are a waste of time.
I am being serious when I say that I think if you upload a photo of Jesus to your profile, people will be more receptive to what you say
even if i never did a radiology rotation at a residency program? is a LoR from any radiology attending good enough?
 
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Mixed bag. Because it is so hard to impress on a radiology rotation, you have a greater chance of hurting yourself than helping yourself. So, proceed with caution. If you do go on one, focus on genuine conversations about love, life, self-abusiveness, etc. rather than just radiology. Most students don't possess the vocabulary to meaningfully and intelligently communicate about radiology matters with attendings and senior residents. If you try, it will be obvious that you are BSing them bc make no mistake, you are not the smartest person in the room and they know more big words than you do (not as a matter of intelligence, but just as a matter of level of training). So, not that important in my opinion.
So, my big take-home from this thread is "Top 1 mistake medical students make on their radiology elective: Signing up for a radiology elective."
 
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So, my big take-home from this thread is "Top 1 mistake medical students make on their radiology elective: Signing up for a radiology elective."

To clarify, students hoping to do radiology should do one radiology rotation to know what they're getting into. If one is not required as part of core clerkships, that would require signing up for an elective.
 
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To clarify, students hoping to do radiology should do one radiology rotation to know what they're getting into. If one is not required as part of core clerkships, that would require signing up for an elective.

I think it was a tongue in cheek response, but the clarification here is probably helpful for those who may have taken the statement seriously
 
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Are students no longer doing radiology electives to learn radiology? When I was a medical student, my friends going into medicine, surgery, ortho, anesthesia and EM did radiology electives because we actually wanted to learn some radiology. Several of us did it at UCSF which had a phenomenal experience for medical students at the time. It would be a shame if radiology electives are now exclusively for auditioning future radiologists.
 
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Are students no longer doing radiology electives to learn radiology? When I was a medical student, my friends going into medicine, surgery, ortho, anesthesia and EM did radiology electives because we actually wanted to learn some radiology. Several of us did it at UCSF which had a phenomenal experience for medical students at the time. It would be a shame if radiology electives are now exclusively for auditioning future radiologists.
I honestly always thought I would do one for exactly that reason. This thread actually made me reconsider. Sounds as if I would do nothing, contribute nothing, learn nothing, and that my inability to converse on the level of a practicing radiologist would mean that I should never speak. Apparently asking questions and trying to learn radiology is considered rude, and they might stick me with someone who knows nothing anyway.

This does not sound like a 'chill' rotation where I could learn to read imaging better in ways that would help me going forward, it sounds like the most mind-numbingly tedious exercise in staying awake while sitting in a dark room completely disengaged other than being expected to provide social interaction in the manner of my teacher's choosing. No thread has ever turned me off of a specialty or experience more. If this is truly what a rads elective is like, I'll gladly spend 2x as much time outside of one improving my imaging skills on my own time, rather than ever trying to learn from radiologists.
 
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Good advice. But it's very sad that basic rules from kindergarten need to be repeated.
 
^ Or never learned.

Today's residents and medical students grew up with minimal or poor social interaction.
 
Sounds as if I would do nothing, contribute nothing, learn nothing, and that my inability to converse on the level of a practicing radiologist would mean that I should never speak. Apparently asking questions and trying to learn radiology is considered rude, and they might stick me with someone who knows nothing anyway.

This does not sound like a 'chill' rotation where I could learn to read imaging better in ways that would help me going forward, it sounds like the most mind-numbingly tedious exercise in staying awake while sitting in a dark room completely disengaged other than being expected to provide social interaction in the manner of my teacher's choosing

While I am only a radiology resident, I feel that the above is an overly negative, incorrect impression to take from this thread and about the specialty. Yes, in all likelihood you won't contribute during the rotation. There isn't scut like there is in IM or surgery that allows medical students to meaningfully facilitate clinical care, and medical school itself is structured to prepare you more for those fields rather than rads.

However, most residents and fellows I have worked with or currently work with encourage asking questions and are happy to explain findings. Even a first year radiology resident should be able to teach you something about reading imaging that may prove useful to your career.

I think the advice regarding socializing is more geared towards prospective radiology applicants trying to make a good impression on a program.
 
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While I am only a radiology resident, I feel that the above is an overly negative, incorrect impression to take from this thread and about the specialty. Yes, in all likelihood you won't contribute during the rotation. There isn't scut like there is in IM or surgery that allows medical students to meaningfully facilitate clinical care, and medical school itself is structured to prepare you more for those fields rather than rads.

However, most residents and fellows I have worked with or currently work with encourage asking questions and are happy to explain findings. Even a first year radiology resident should be able to teach you something about reading imaging that may prove useful to your career.

I think the advice regarding socializing is more geared towards prospective radiology applicants trying to make a good impression on a program.
:shrug:
I'm just telling you what my reaction to the OP is. I've always strongly considered doing a radiology elective in order to strengthen my ability to interpret films for whatever specialty I eventually end up in. This thread makes it clear that I would be utterly miserable on a radiology elective, and honestly makes it sound as if most people would be, even those planning on going into the field, and they should just try to sit there smiling in the corner for a month and get it over with because it's required. It also makes it sound as if the radiologists hate having students but are willing to grin and bear it so long as they stay quiet in their corner. Hell, the followup post actually advises against discussing the actual medicine/radiology, just because you don't know enough to speak at the level of a rads attending. If you can't do anything, shouldn't ask questions, shouldn't speak when you know things, shouldn't speak when you don't know things, your boss is "the blind leading the blind", you can learn as much by reading (OP's implication, not mine) and you can't even discuss the subject at hand, why on earth bother?

You can offer a different perspective that disagrees with the points and descriptions in the OP, but please don't try to tell me that my impression of my own reaction to the scenarios described above is inaccurate.

I get that the intent of this post was to highlight "be respectful, don't be cocky, look interested, and put in the time," but since those things were a given before reading it, the take-home for me is all of the other details that got added in that really make it seem as if you won't learn much and won't be welcome on a standard Rads rotation. Well, OK then.
 
Are students no longer doing radiology electives to learn radiology? When I was a medical student, my friends going into medicine, surgery, ortho, anesthesia and EM did radiology electives because we actually wanted to learn some radiology. Several of us did it at UCSF which had a phenomenal experience for medical students at the time. It would be a shame if radiology electives are now exclusively for auditioning future radiologists.
I would guess half to 2/3 of my class did a radiology elective despite like 4 people doing radiology residency. This is in addition to an online radiology course we were required to do as part of 3rd year.
 
I honestly always thought I would do one for exactly that reason. This thread actually made me reconsider. Sounds as if I would do nothing, contribute nothing, learn nothing, and that my inability to converse on the level of a practicing radiologist would mean that I should never speak. Apparently asking questions and trying to learn radiology is considered rude, and they might stick me with someone who knows nothing anyway.

This does not sound like a 'chill' rotation where I could learn to read imaging better in ways that would help me going forward, it sounds like the most mind-numbingly tedious exercise in staying awake while sitting in a dark room completely disengaged other than being expected to provide social interaction in the manner of my teacher's choosing. No thread has ever turned me off of a specialty or experience more. If this is truly what a rads elective is like, I'll gladly spend 2x as much time outside of one improving my imaging skills on my own time, rather than ever trying to learn from radiologists.

People sign up for Rads because sitting in a dark room for 4 hours then going home is 10x better than 8 hours in a clinic seeing you're 500th diabetes management and 100x better than showing up at 5AM to retract for 12 hours. Are you a complete *****? Of course paying 80k/yr to do nothing sucks, but it sucks 2-3 deviations less than paying 80k/yr to suffer all day like you do in most rotations.
 
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Don't do a (month-long general) radiology rotation because you want to improve your interpretations of medical imaging. You won't.

Do a radiology rotation because 1) you're interested in the field, 2) you want to have afternoons, evenings, nights, and weekends off, or 3) you have to.
 
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People sign up for Rads because sitting in a dark room for 4 hours then going home is 10x better than 8 hours in a clinic seeing you're 500th diabetes management and 100x better than showing up at 5AM to retract for 12 hours. Are you a complete *****? Of course paying 80k/yr to do nothing sucks, but it sucks 2-3 deviations less than paying 80k/yr to suffer all day like you do in most rotations.
Yeah, I'm a complete ***** because I have different preferences than you. :rolleyes:
Sorry, but sitting in a dark room for 4hrs doing nothing sounds like torture to me. Give me 500 diabetes patients anyday, and if you offered me the chance to go in at 4am and scrub in for a few hours before seeing the 500 diabetes patients, I'd do it, even if I did nothing but retract or even stand craning to see. Anything other than sitting around in uncomfortable chairs doing nothing but focusing on being awake. A 4hr day where I do nothing just doesn't get me excited...that's a waste of 4hrs, not a gain of a day. But then, I'm the type of person who loves being at work and being productive, and doesn't even much enjoy sitting around at home doing nothing, nevermind in the hospital. Hell, I'd take 12hrs in a sandwich shop with zero downtime over 4hrs of sitting in a dark room doing nothing. It's just who I am. No shade if you'd prefer the 4hrs, but please don't call me a complete ***** for feeling differently.
Don't do a (month-long general) radiology rotation because you want to improve your interpretations of medical imaging. You won't.

Do a radiology rotation because 1) you're interested in the field, 2) you want to have afternoons, evenings, nights, and weekends off, or 3) you have to.
Thanks! That's actually helpful advice.
 
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Are students no longer doing radiology electives to learn radiology? When I was a medical student, my friends going into medicine, surgery, ortho, anesthesia and EM did radiology electives because we actually wanted to learn some radiology. Several of us did it at UCSF which had a phenomenal experience for medical students at the time. It would be a shame if radiology electives are now exclusively for auditioning future radiologists.

Students going into other fields do rads and anestheaia rotations in m4 because they are tired, already got letters / applied to residency, and want to hit the beach.
 
Don't do a (month-long general) radiology rotation because you want to improve your interpretations of medical imaging. You won't.

100% disagree. I only did a 2 week elective and the difference was palpable.
 
:shrug:
I'm just telling you what my reaction to the OP is. I've always strongly considered doing a radiology elective in order to strengthen my ability to interpret films for whatever specialty I eventually end up in. This thread makes it clear that I would be utterly miserable on a radiology elective, and honestly makes it sound as if most people would be, even those planning on going into the field, and they should just try to sit there smiling in the corner for a month and get it over with because it's required. It also makes it sound as if the radiologists hate having students but are willing to grin and bear it so long as they stay quiet in their corner. Hell, the followup post actually advises against discussing the actual medicine/radiology, just because you don't know enough to speak at the level of a rads attending. If you can't do anything, shouldn't ask questions, shouldn't speak when you know things, shouldn't speak when you don't know things, your boss is "the blind leading the blind", you can learn as much by reading (OP's implication, not mine) and you can't even discuss the subject at hand, why on earth bother?

You can offer a different perspective that disagrees with the points and descriptions in the OP, but please don't try to tell me that my impression of my own reaction to the scenarios described above is inaccurate.

I get that the intent of this post was to highlight "be respectful, don't be cocky, look interested, and put in the time," but since those things were a given before reading it, the take-home for me is all of the other details that got added in that really make it seem as if you won't learn much and won't be welcome on a standard Rads rotation. Well, OK then.

The OPs post is so accurate I wonder if I did my elective at his program. The experience was awful. At my two week review I was told I was too friendly, appeared too interested in the material even though I didn't want to be a radiologist and one attending had made an anonymous complaint about the hem of my pants being too long (?!?!!).
I'd never received such unhelpful and borderline humiliating feedback. I basically decided to make myself as scarce as possible, not talk to anyone, and go home in the middle of the day and nap. On the final day I delivered an amazing end of the rotation project presentation which they all loved and congratulated me on "turning around" the rotation. I wanted to tell them all to derelict my balls.

I am a social chameleon and got high passes and praise on every rotation from surgery to OBGYN to palliative care. These radiologists and residents were such awkward SOBs. They expect students to be mind readers (irony) tuned into every annoying quirk they have and if you speak one too many words or sit one too many inches to the left of their shoulder they're going to be bothered by it. This appears to be their culture.
 
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The OPs post is so accurate I wonder if I did my elective at his program. The experience was awful. At my two week review I was told I was too friendly, appeared too interested in the material even though I didn't want to be a radiologist and one attending had made an anonymous complaint about the hem of my pants being too long (?!?!!).
I'd never received such unhelpful and borderline humiliating feedback. I basically decided to make myself as scarce as possible, not talk to anyone, and go home in the middle of the day and nap. On the final day I delivered an amazing end of the rotation project presentation which they all loved and congratulated me on "turning around" the rotation. I wanted to tell them all to derelict my balls.

I am a social chameleon and got high passes and praise on every rotation from surgery to OBGYN to palliative care. These radiologists and residents were such awkward SOBs. They expect students to be mind readers (irony) tuned into every annoying quirk they have and if you speak one too many words or sit one too many inches to the left of their shoulder they're going to be bothered by it. This appears to be their culture.
ded
 
I am a social chameleon and got high passes and praise on every rotation from surgery to OBGYN to palliative care. These radiologists and residents were such awkward SOBs. They expect students to be mind readers (irony) tuned into every annoying quirk they have and if you speak one too many words or sit one too many inches to the left of their shoulder they're going to be bothered by it. This appears to be their culture.

There are good reasons for this.

You contribute nothing. Sounds harsh but its true. Nothing in medical school prepared you for radiology. Its why first year radiology residents have next to zero real responsibility, at least initially. No history and physicals, no notes, no "oh hey can you go and ask the social worker about xyz? Can you follow up on the latest Hgb?". A good medical student can produce servicable notes that the resident/attending can basically use. I remember writing discharge summaries on word and then sending them to the resident. That absolutely helped reduced the resident workload. Even if you could dictate studies you would be creating more work for the attending. Just ask any radiology attending that's working with an R1 that day. You simply don't have the background to be useful and that's OK. Nobody is expecting you to.

Radiology is a very efficient specialty. No BS to take up your day. If you are fast and good you can blaze through tons of studies. No patients to slow you down in clinic asking 5000 questions or unexpected findings during a surgery which make it take way longer. Therefore there is no real downtime in the reading room where there can be teaching without slowing down. On your medicine rotation the residents would typically teach various topics later in the afternoon, when they are waiting for followups on consults, imaging studies, labs, etc and/or waiting for admissions. Radiology doesn't really have that "downtime". This turns out to be awesome when you are actually training or practicing in radiology.

Also when it comes to attendings ask yourself how long were you really with your medicine attendings during the day? Morning rounds and maybe catch up with them in the afternoon to staff admissions on admitting days. That's about it. In radiology you are with them the entire day in the reading room.

If you really want to learn some useful radiology buy/borrow Felson's Chest book. Its an easy read and at a med student level.

Understand the ins and outs of a CXR. There is just no way that you will learn anything useful about something like MRI in a 2 or 4 week rotation that will make a clinical difference. You might learn that water is T2 bright but will you know enough to make a clinical difference? No. Reading a CXR however will help since you will see the portable CXR right away.
 
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There are good reasons for this.

You contribute nothing. Sounds harsh but its true. Nothing in medical school prepared you for radiology. Its why first year radiology residents have next to zero real responsibility, at least initially. No history and physicals, no notes, no "oh hey can you go and ask the social worker about xyz? Can you follow up on the latest Hgb?". A good medical student can produce servicable notes that the resident/attending can basically use. I remember writing discharge summaries on word and then sending them to the resident. That absolutely helped reduced the resident workload. Even if you could dictate studies you would be creating more work for the attending. Just ask any radiology attending that's working with an R1 that day. You simply don't have the background to be useful and that's OK. Nobody is expecting you to.

Radiology is a very efficient specialty. No BS to take up your day. If you are fast and good you can blaze through tons of studies. No patients to slow you down in clinic asking 5000 questions or unexpected findings during a surgery which make it take way longer. Therefore there is no real downtime in the reading room where there can be teaching without slowing down. On your medicine rotation the residents would typically teach various topics later in the afternoon, when they are waiting for followups on consults, imaging studies, labs, etc and/or waiting for admissions. Radiology doesn't really have that "downtime". This turns out to be awesome when you are actually training or practicing in radiology.

Also when it comes to attendings ask yourself how long were you really with your medicine attendings during the day? Morning rounds and maybe catch up with them in the afternoon to staff admissions on admitting days. That's about it. In radiology you are with them the entire day in the reading room.

If you really want to learn some useful radiology buy/borrow Felson's Chest book. Its an easy read and at a med student level.

Understand the ins and outs of a CXR. There is just no way that you will learn anything useful about something like MRI in a 2 or 4 week rotation that will make a clinical difference. You might learn that water is T2 bright but will you know enough to make a clinical difference? No. Reading a CXR however will help since you will see the portable CXR right away.
Still more than 4hrs...and on outpatient you spend the whole day with them.

Those aren't 'good reasons', those are excuses. None of that explains the (admittedly likely somewhat exaggerated) things being pointed out in 24blue8's post. You don't have to find med students useful to treat them like human beings interested in your field. Even at the site where residents weren't allowed to use our notes, they took my interest in the field as a positive quality, overall. Even in a busy clinic when the attending literally had no time to sit there and let me give a full presentation because they believed it was their job to duplicate the entire history and physical anyway, they took 15min at the end of my day (not theirs, they had hours of work left) to take me aside and talk about how I did, things I could learn from the cases we saw that day, etc.
 
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I think we can all agree that radiology experiences for medical students can be improved. It will reduce clinical productivity. It will require social interactions, which are sometimes awkward. It will require investment, of time from a senior resident or faculty member, and of space for a workstation where the student can struggle through a few cases by themselves.

But ultimately I think it would be beneficial for the field to get all medical students beyond the first hump of the Dunning-Kruger curve, into the valley of despair.
dunning-kruger-effect.png
 
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I think we can agree medical students aren’t actually useful in most fields, that they get in the way, slow down the process, etc. Certainly that is true in my own specialty. Even in a medicine or surgery service, even though medical students feel like they are working hard, they are probably reducing efficiency. Then you have to ask why anyone would remain in academics if they don’t like teaching. I went into PP because I enjoy cranking out cases and don’t have any particular desire to teach. Medical students are paying BIG BUCKS. They deserve more than being ignored and told to stay out of the way.
 
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I think we can all agree that radiology experiences for medical students can be improved. It will reduce clinical productivity. It will require social interactions, which are sometimes awkward. It will require investment, of time from a senior resident or faculty member, and of space for a workstation where the student can struggle through a few cases by themselves.

But ultimately I think it would be beneficial for the field to get all medical students beyond the first hump of the Dunning-Kruger curve, into the valley of despair.
dunning-kruger-effect.png
can't tell if i'm in mt. stupid or valley of despair
 
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So is the myth of outsourcing really a myth?

Is our country run by multinational corporations and dark money in the form lobbyists and Citizens United? And does the American College of Radiology (ACR) have lots of money to pay to politicians? Yes and Yes. That's why radiologists aren't worried about outsourcing.
 
I think we can agree medical students aren’t actually useful in most fields, that they get in the way, slow down the process, etc. Certainly that is true in my own specialty. Even in a medicine or surgery service, even though medical students feel like they are working hard, they are probably reducing efficiency. Then you have to ask why anyone would remain in academics if they don’t like teaching. I went into PP because I enjoy cranking out cases and don’t have any particular desire to teach. Medical students are paying BIG BUCKS. They deserve more than being ignored and told to stay out of the way.
The only field I've felt actually useful in thus far was Psych, because a) my note was actually wholly usable by the residents, b) me being able to spend ages talking to the patients one on one was actually productive, in a way, and my pre-rounding gave the patient their only chance to speak without feeling on the spot with a crowd listening c) it actually seemed to matter that I provided a bit of continuity when the team changed, because the exam and everything was incredibly subjective/relative, so being able to say "he seems calmer than yesterday" was actually good info.

Other than that, sure, we almost always hinder the process more than help. But at least we can be productive, in our own way, to show interest and work ethic.
 
Moderators, please sticky!!!

In particular #4 applies to ALL rotations. I've got several students who were in deep **** earlier this year because they didn't understand that being on rotation is being on the job, and you don't show up late for jobs. This is now a common problem in both clinical years and in residency, because for most med students nowadays, residency will be their first employment ever.

A job I pay 60k to be a part of
 
A job I pay 60k to be a part of
All the more reason not to waffle around and make it look as if you're uninterested and don't value it enough to show up on time. You pay $60k a year to learn what these folks are willing to teach you, and you're not willing to show up on time for them to do it?

Clinicals are only educational if the preceptors give us responsibilities and opportunities to learn...which they will only do if we seem at least baseline minimum responsible. Showing up late is not hitting that baseline.
Now, if your preceptor is always late and never teaches, well, it's kind of a two way street. But paying tuition is what gets us the privilege of being allowed to take up extra time and attention from both the patients and the preceptors; it doesn't replace the value of having a good work ethic and trying to learn. That's like saying that you don't have to turn in your homework in college because you pay to be there.
 
And one which will soon net you at least a quarter of a mil per year right?

No, I will soon make minimum wage. 5-6 years from then I will make a quarter mil.
 
Alright, guys, let's not turn this Rads thread into generalized fussing about med school loan burdens, please.
 
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