Top programs, but no honors in medicine?

[rd31]

Hi everyone, I've got a situation and wondering about your opinions. (MS3 here)

My top choice IM programs are BWH, MGH, Columbia, Penn, and UCSF.

Here are my stats:
Step 1: 260+
3rd year honors grades: surgery, family, peds, (awaiting OB and psych). Did NOT honor medicine due to issues in the grading system, but MSPE will say "would have honored medicine if not for change in grading system this year." Medicine was my first rotation and half of my inpatient evals said I was performing at either a sub-I or intern level (i.e. 1-2 full years above my level of training).
Preclinical honors: honored all courses years 1 and 2
Research: ~6 publications (hopefully, some are under review), 1-2 first authors
Top 35 med school

So my questions is: Am I basically screwed for the top programs I listed without the honors in medicine? If I do honor OB and/or psych, which are yet to come out, then I have a great shot at getting AOA, but obviously this is uncertain at this point. I also plan to do some intense medicine electives in addition to my sub-I, and an away rotation at one of the above institutions.

Thanks! I appreciate any and all advise!

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[235009]

Hi everyone, I've got a situation and wondering about your opinions. (MS3 here)

My top choice IM programs are BWH, MGH, Columbia, Penn, and UCSF.

Here are my stats:
Step 1: 260+
3rd year honors grades: surgery, family, peds, (awaiting OB and psych). Did NOT honor medicine due to issues in the grading system, but MSPE will say "would have honored medicine if not for change in grading system this year." Medicine was my first rotation and half of my inpatient evals said I was performing at either a sub-I or intern level (i.e. 1-2 full years above my level of training).
Preclinical honors: honored all courses years 1 and 2
Research: ~6 publications (hopefully, some are under review), 1-2 first authors
Top 35 med school

So my questions is: Am I basically screwed for the top programs I listed without the honors in medicine? If I do honor OB and/or psych, which are yet to come out, then I have a great shot at getting AOA, but obviously this is uncertain at this point. I also plan to do some intense medicine electives in addition to my sub-I, and an away rotation at one of the above institutions.

Thanks! I appreciate any and all advise!

Questions like this always baffle me. Do the best you can from here on out, apply and see what happens. Focus on getting AOA as that helps a lot. Consider taking ck fairly early as I'm guessing you'll crush it. Try to honor all your remaining rotations as I'm sure you were going to do anyway.

 

[jdh71]

I think we have a "what are my chances thread".

Given the lack if ability to search the forum. I'm doubting the skills necessary to train at anybody those top programs.

 

[padastra]

Your application is strong enough that you should apply to top-tier IM programs.

 

[darkelven29]

If you are AOA, you are applying to those 5 programs. If you are not AOA, you are still applying to those programs. Regardless of AOA, you may get all 5, several, or no interviews from those programs. So you're asking a question that is not truly answerable on SDN. Your school's advisor may be able to tell you based on past statistics, would a student need AOA or "honors" in medicine to get interviews from those programs just to quell your silly anxiety.

 

[gutonc]

I love how we've had a dramatic uptick in WAMC threads on the days immediately preceding and following the Match. Can we not get a break from this stuff at all anymore?

 

[jdh71]

I love how we've had a dramatic uptick in WAMC threads on the days immediately preceding and following the Match. Can we not get a break from this stuff at all anymore?

Nope. Everyone is a gorgeous and beautiful and special flower and SOMETHING must have gone horrible and mistakenly wrong. There must have been a large misunderstanding that BWH did not pick them up. As well as their backup UCSF. Do we think that it's possibly to sneak into MGH for a second year spot??? And will this impact their chances at a Duke cardiology spot?!?

 

[anbuitachi]

can't tell if joking. your application is extremely strong . . . .

 

[rd31]

No I'm not joking. These types of programs are notorious for screening out applicants outright pre-interview without the honors in medicine (regardless of everything else in the application). I was wondering if anyone had anecdotal evidence of overcoming this, how to best get around this.

 

[IM2GI]

Hi everyone, I've got a situation and wondering about your opinions. (MS3 here)

My top choice IM programs are BWH, MGH, Columbia, Penn, and UCSF.

Here are my stats:
Step 1: 260+
3rd year honors grades: surgery, family, peds, (awaiting OB and psych). Did NOT honor medicine due to issues in the grading system, but MSPE will say "would have honored medicine if not for change in grading system this year." Medicine was my first rotation and half of my inpatient evals said I was performing at either a sub-I or intern level (i.e. 1-2 full years above my level of training).
Preclinical honors: honored all courses years 1 and 2
Research: ~6 publications (hopefully, some are under review), 1-2 first authors
Top 35 med school

So my questions is: Am I basically screwed for the top programs I listed without the honors in medicine? If I do honor OB and/or psych, which are yet to come out, then I have a great shot at getting AOA, but obviously this is uncertain at this point. I also plan to do some intense medicine electives in addition to my sub-I, and an away rotation at one of the above institutions.

Thanks! I appreciate any and all advise!

I'm not sure why I am bothering replying to this, but here goes. When it comes to interviews from the consensus "top 4": MGH, UCSF, BWH and Hopkins, it is a bit of a crapshoot. You can have all the stats and still not get an interview. Don't have your heart set on one, as the competition is fierce and it is all a bit random.

You should follow the same advice every applicant gets: Apply broadly and go on as many interviews as you can tolerate. Trends in IM seem to be getting even more competitive, in which applicants going to the "top 10" programs would likely be competitive in derm/ortho/etc. If your rank list is MGH, UPenn, Hopkins, UCSF and then say Tufts, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Not that there is anything wrong with Tufts, but you missed out on a lot of strong programs along the way. Set your ego aside, apply broadly, and see where the chips fall.

 

[rd31]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Just curious, does anyone know of anyone who interviewed or matched at MGH, BWH, UCSF, Columbia, or Penn without honors in Medicine? I haven't really seen evidence of this in any of the match threads.

 

[gutonc]

No I'm not joking. These types of programs are notorious for screening out applicants outright pre-interview without the honors in medicine (regardless of everything else in the application). I was wondering if anyone had anecdotal evidence of overcoming this, how to best get around this.

The best way to get around this is to learn to love the 5 or 6 dozen other awesome programs that will train you to be an internist and get you into whatever fellowship you want. I mean, it's obvious that the only reason you listed those programs as your "top choices" is because you know they're competitive. Not because they offer something special that you can't get from a buttload of other programs that won't give a s**t that you didn't honor your IM clerkship.

 

[serialsevens]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Just curious, does anyone know of anyone who interviewed or matched at MGH, BWH, UCSF, Columbia, or Penn without honors in Medicine? I haven't really seen evidence of this in any of the match threads.

FWIW, I have 2 friends in my med school class who matched at Columbia IM without honoring medicine. Both are AOA and have similar stats compared to yours.

Edit: They also honored their sub-i, which they did as their first MS4 rotation. To my recollection neither did an away at Columbia.

 

[disorder]

it also really depends on where you went to med school...
...and what percentage of students honor the rotation (sort of)

 

[Instatewaiter]

Hi everyone, I've got a situation and wondering about your opinions. (MS3 here)

My top choice IM programs are BWH, MGH, Columbia, Penn, and UCSF.

As we all know, there are 3 tiers of programs:
Tier 1: Hopkins
Tier 2: The Brigham, Columbia, Duke, Penn, MGH, UCSF
Tier 3: Relegation to geriatrics in South Dakota.

OP I am glad without your honors in medicine you realized you weren't competitive for the first tier. Hopefully you won't be relegated to Geriatrics in SD or Library science in Montana. Good luck. You have an uphill battle

 

[yoyopa]

Might be me, but the whole "issues with the grading system" is kind of a lame excuse. Your grade is what it is and I suspect the rest of your cohort will be subjected to the same grading system "issues". I'd clear any thought of assigning blame to the school from your mind as no one really wants to work with someone with that sort of it is never my fault mentality (ownership is key and you'll be better served to suck it up and say I could have done better...even if that isn't the case). If you own it and H an early sub-I the rest of your app is strong enough to land interviews at some of the top 5-10 places.

That said, I'd open my eyes and be thankful to land anywhere in the top 15-20. Competition is getting very fierce at the top and even with that H in your medicine clerkship a spot at MGH, BW, JHH, or UCSF might still out of reach if you aren't at the right school with right combo of grades, letters, and substantive research.

 

[rd31]

As we all know, there are 3 tiers of programs:
Tier 1: Hopkins
Tier 2: The Brigham, Columbia, Duke, Penn, MGH, UCSF
Tier 3: Relegation to geriatrics in South Dakota.

OP I am glad without your honors in medicine you realized you weren't competitive for the first tier. Hopefully you won't be relegated to Geriatrics in SD or Library science in Montana. Good luck. You have an uphill battle

Thanks everyone else for providing helpful comments and not passing so much judgment.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Thanks everyone else for providing helpful comments and not passing so much judgment.

You're welcome

 

[amine2086]

As we all know, there are 3 tiers of programs:
Tier 1: Hopkins
Tier 2: The Brigham, Columbia, Duke, Penn, MGH, UCSF
Tier 3: Relegation to geriatrics in South Dakota.

OP I am glad without your honors in medicine you realized you weren't competitive for the first tier. Hopefully you won't be relegated to Geriatrics in SD or Library science in Montana. Good luck. You have an uphill battle

I think Cleveland clinic belongs in tier 1. At least that's what the survey says. No?

 

[anonperson]

No I'm not joking. These types of programs are notorious for screening out applicants outright pre-interview without the honors in medicine (regardless of everything else in the application). I was wondering if anyone had anecdotal evidence of overcoming this, how to best get around this.

People are hassling you because you're asking a dumb question. Even if every single post said that without honors in medicine you would have no shot at the programs listed, would it really change if you applied to them or if you would still try to honor your sub I?

You have a strong application for your listed programs. Hell you are a good candidate for any top program for any specialty. These top tier programs can be picky and a bit unpredictable on who they will or won't interview.

 

[gutonc]

No I'm not joking. These types of programs are notorious for screening out applicants outright pre-interview without the honors in medicine (regardless of everything else in the application). I was wondering if anyone had anecdotal evidence of overcoming this, how to best get around this.

Anecdotes are, by definition, not evidence.

 

[Bronxzoo]

lol this is insane