Top schools=top residencies?

[unicorn06]

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Hi, I am currently applying to medical school and was hoping someone here might be able to help me with the following question.

For those who want to enter very competitive residencies such as dermatology, ophthalmology, neurosurgery, or radiation oncology, is it a signficant advantage to attend the very top schools (ie Harvard, Hopkins, Duke) over other exceptional schools that are ranked only slightly lower (Michigan, UCLA, etc) and do not send as high of a proportion of their classes into these specialties? I have gotten conflicting answers to this question and was wondering what you have all heard/experienced.

 

[Chief Resident]

Hi, I am currently applying to medical school and was hoping someone here might be able to help me with the following question.

For those who want to enter very competitive residencies such as dermatology, ophthalmology, neurosurgery, or radiation oncology, is it a signficant advantage to attend the very top schools (ie Harvard, Hopkins, Duke) over other exceptional schools that are ranked only slightly lower (Michigan, UCLA, etc) and do not send as high of a proportion of their classes into these specialties? I have gotten conflicting answers to this question and was wondering what you have all heard/experienced.

Yes, going to a top school will definetly increase your chance of getting into a top residency program.

You're going to get the predictable advice from others that it's more about grades, USMLE scores, blah, blah. Of course your performance in med school matters but where you go to school also plays a major role, sometimes more than your stats from med school. If getting a top residency was all based on how well you did in med school then all those coming out of foreign schools or D.O. schools with all Honor grades, 250+ on the USMLE, great letters of rec, etc would be getting the residencies people coming out of the top M.D. schools get (sometimes with lower stats).

 

[velo]

well first of all I think that all the schools you've listed are excellent, and I'd say yes and no about the top schools=top residencies. While I'd say its certainly true that your school's name and reputation have an effect on the program directors, its by no means enough to ensure a match in a competative program. Do top schools churn out great match lists? Of course, but I'd say that's largely because the type of student who looks good to top medical school is also the type of student who is going to look good to residency programs. If you're a superstar med school applicant you'll probably be a superstar residency applicant no matter where you ended up going to med school. Add to that the fact that a good med school name probably gives you a little boost, and you're going to see great match lists from top med schools.

So, in conclusion, yes and no...and there are exceptions to everything I've said. 😀

 

[Wiggy73]

Not that I'm an expert on this, but I'd think it would be more of an advantage if you wanted a Hopkins residency in derm to go to Hopkins Med, just because you can make connections and a lot of people do residency where they did med undergrad. Whereas if all you cared about was getting any derm residency, you can do that from any school like velocypedalist said.

 

[ToxicFugu]

Hi, I am currently applying to medical school and was hoping someone here might be able to help me with the following question.

For those who want to enter very competitive residencies such as dermatology, ophthalmology, neurosurgery, or radiation oncology, is it a signficant advantage to attend the very top schools (ie Harvard, Hopkins, Duke) over other exceptional schools that are ranked only slightly lower (Michigan, UCLA, etc) and do not send as high of a proportion of their classes into these specialties? I have gotten conflicting answers to this question and was wondering what you have all heard/experienced.

Here's something to refute the claim that the best schools have the best match. Chicago med has no reputation to speak of (meaning we don't like to speak about it). Yet it matches well year after year. There's a recent thread on this forum that you might want to look into:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234170

Chicago Med 2005 Match:
http://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/osa/Resources/2005MR.pdf

Some examples:

Radiology - 6
RadOnc - 2
Orthopaedic surgery - 9(!) - Stanford, NYU, Washington, USC, others.
Neurosurgery - 1 - Brown
Optho - 7
Derm - 2
Anesthesiology - 12 - All impressive Programs - 2 stanford, 2 hopkins, 5 california, Mayo, etc.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

a) Don't underestimate the influence of regionalism.

b) Top schools allow even their bottom quartile graduates to match to top residencies. This is where the advantage lies. Otherwise, if you do well at any medical school, you will match well.

 

[Jalby]

Yes, top schools get you the top spots in all residencies across the country. It is a lot easier to fall down than up.

Also, being at a great school allows you to get great letters of recs and having big names behind the people recommending you really does help.

 

[powermd]

I went to CMS, graduated in 2004, and I'm now doing anesthesiology at Columbia.. not too bad for someone who was solidly middle to low end of the pack (but with solid board scores and great letters). The school offers an outstanding teaching environment, and was a wonderful place to go to school for four years. I also loved living in downtown Chicago for the latter two.

We have have had some very nice match lists in recent years, but ours is NOTHING compared to the match lists of top tier schools. Take a close look at the match lists of Harvard, Yale, Brown, Cornell, Hopkins etc, and you will see huge differences. CMS might match ONE person to a major plastics/derm, or a few to prominent rads/ortho/ENT/surg programs... but the top tier places will match large numbers of students to top programs in EVERY SPECIALTY. Check out where their IM or EM people go vs where people from CMS go. A large proportion end up at other top tier hospitals that likely wouldn't even interview CMS students. In my year we had more EM matches than any other school (~25), but only a handful were to top tier programs.

Sure, your whole package matters, but it's undeniable that top tier schools match (a lot) more students to better programs.

 

[45408]

if all you want to do is be a successful physician in your field (let's say something highly competitive, like orthopedics), but not a researcher/policymaker/administrator, does it matter if you do your residency at a "top residency" or one that's less competitive?

 

[DrBowtie]

Not that I'm an expert on this, but I'd think it would be more of an advantage if you wanted a Hopkins residency in derm to go to Hopkins Med, just because you can make connections and a lot of people do residency where they did med undergrad. Whereas if all you cared about was getting any derm residency, you can do that from any school like velocypedalist said.

I have heard this from a PD.
Going to the school you hope to match at helps too.

 

[powermd]

if all you want to do is be a successful physician in your field (let's say something highly competitive, like orthopedics), but not a researcher/policymaker/administrator, does it matter if you do your residency at a "top residency" or one that's less competitive?

Do you really not know the answer to this question?

Generally speaking, and other factors being equal, it ALWAYS helps to have a better pedigree no matter what field you want to go into (in ANY career). Practically, good advice is to go to the best and/or most prestigous program that accepts you and feels right for you. If you have questions about whether or not a particular school will be adequate to match a particular program- the proof is in the pudding. Look at the match list and see where the students go. If you want ortho, you probably wouldn't do well to go to a school that hardly ever matches anyone into the field. On the flip side, a school that matches 10 people to ortho per year, and has it's own ortho program that is friendly toward it's own students would be a great choice.

 

[yellowcat322]

I went to CMS, graduated in 2004, and I'm now doing anesthesiology at Columbia.. not too bad for someone who was solidly middle to low end of the pack (but with solid board scores and great letters). The school offers an outstanding teaching environment, and was a wonderful place to go to school for four years. I also loved living in downtown Chicago for the latter two.

We have have had some very nice match lists in recent years, but ours is NOTHING compared to the match lists of top tier schools. Take a close look at the match lists of Harvard, Yale, Brown, Cornell, Hopkins etc, and you will see huge differences. CMS might match ONE person to a major plastics/derm, or a few to prominent rads/ortho/ENT/surg programs... but the top tier places will match large numbers of students to top programs in EVERY SPECIALTY. Check out where their IM or EM people go vs where people from CMS go. A large proportion end up at other top tier hospitals that likely wouldn't even interview CMS students. In my year we had more EM matches than any other school (~25), but only a handful were to top tier programs.

Sure, your whole package matters, but it's undeniable that top tier schools match (a lot) more students to better programs.

Yes, but as someone pointed out, it's not obvious if this difference in matching is due to the name of the school or to the fact that people at top tier schools are simply more likely to achieve higher grades, etc. due to the fact that they're naturally more ambitious, which is why they ended up in top tier in the first place. The only true way to tell would be to compare the stats of ppl who match in top tier school with those who match the same in lower ranked schools. If those in top tier get top residencies with lower grades than that's your answer -- name really does matter.

 

[Messerschmitts]

Can anyone give me a rough "ranking" of how competitive various residencies are, like from most competitive to least competitive? The 3 areas I'm most interested in are paediatrics, emergency, and general surgery.

 

[forbin]

Can anyone give me a rough "ranking" of how competitive various residencies are, like from most competitive to least competitive? The 3 areas I'm most interested in are paediatrics, emergency, and general surgery.

Roughly speaking, I would say:

Very Competitive: Derm, ENT, Urology, Neurosurg, Ortho, Rad Onc, Plastics, Ophtho

Competitive: Radiology, Emergency Med, Anesthesia, Gen Surg

Not That Competitive: Medicine, Peds, OB/GYN, Path, Psych, PM&R, Family Med, Neurology

As a general rule of thumb, the most competitive specialties have these 3 characteristics: large $$$ potential, good postresidency lifestyle, and very few spots available. On the other hand, any specialty becomes competitive if you're shooting for elite programs.

 

[Messerschmitts]

Roughly speaking, I would say:

Very Competitive: Derm, ENT, Urology, Neurosurg, Ortho, Rad Onc, Plastics, Ophtho

Competitive: Radiology, Emergency Med, Anesthesia, Gen Surg

Not That Competitive: Medicine, Peds, OB/GYN, Path, Psych, PM&R, Family Med, Neurology

As a general rule of thumb, the most competitive specialties have these 3 characteristics: large $$$ potential, good postresidency lifestyle, and very few spots available. On the other hand, any specialty becomes competitive if you're shooting for elite programs.

Thanks a lot! It'll give me something to think about as I enter med school.

 

[CTSballer11]

Do you really not know the answer to this question?

Generally speaking, and other factors being equal, it ALWAYS helps to have a better pedigree no matter what field you want to go into (in ANY career). Practically, good advice is to go to the best and/or most prestigous program that accepts you and feels right for you. If you have questions about whether or not a particular school will be adequate to match a particular program- the proof is in the pudding. Look at the match list and see where the students go. If you want ortho, you probably wouldn't do well to go to a school that hardly ever matches anyone into the field. On the flip side, a school that matches 10 people to ortho per year, and has it's own ortho program that is friendly toward it's own students would be a great choice.

Good advice, you cannot go wrong going to a school that offers a ton of specialties and is friendly towards its own students.

 

[powermd]

Yes, but as someone pointed out, it's not obvious if this difference in matching is due to the name of the school or to the fact that people at top tier schools are simply more likely to achieve higher grades, etc. due to the fact that they're naturally more ambitious, which is why they ended up in top tier in the first place. The only true way to tell would be to compare the stats of ppl who match in top tier school with those who match the same in lower ranked schools. If those in top tier get top residencies with lower grades than that's your answer -- name really does matter.

It's probably a little of both. Do you think we need to conduct a rigorous, NIH-funded study to figure that out?

 

[yellowcat322]

It's probably a little of both. Do you think we need to conduct a rigorous, NIH-funded study to figure that out?

Hey if we can get funding, why not? 🙂 Seriously, though, it's a valid question, mainy because choosing a school isn't always black or white. For example, someone may be accepted to a state school and an out of state one of higher ranking that would cost twice as much to attend. So in this case knowing whether the name of the school really makes a big difference or whether you can get top match from anywhere if your grades are good enough, is really crucial.