Top-Tier Research Schools

[premeddick]

I am curious what types of things people have done who have been accepted into top-tier research schools with stats less than the average for that school. What have you done to make yourself stand out? What sort of EC's, research and volunteering do you believe gave you the edge to get in with an MCAT and GPA less than average for the school? Thanks for your help.

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[premeddick]

bump

 

[MWillie]

Sorry, I don't kno personally, but I'd imagine a couple first author papers in journals with decent impact factors would do the trick.

 

[premeddick]

Sorry, I don't kno personally, but I'd imagine a couple first author papers in journals with decent impact factors would do the trick.

Yeah that seems like it would do the trick, so would a nobel prize. But is that the least? Would a couple mid author good papers do the trick? Would first author on a couple mid range journals be good enough? I am just trying to gauge what has worked for other people?

 

[MWillie]

A first author in any peer reviewed journal is pretty impressive for a premed (unless they've had post grad experience), so that and maybe one or two mid authors should help secure some interviews at least, IMO.

 

[byong_soo]

sure the review journal should help. but most important thing perhaps is for you to work very hard in the lab and obtain the best letter of recommendation possible. that may be more important than publications (although having a publication typically would mean u would have good lor anyway. heh)

 

[Finian]

Publications are key even as a second author. I know someone with average stats and GPA with 2 second author articles who has been accepted to two excellent schools and has interviewed at Harvard and Hopkins and CCLCM. He works crazy hours for peanuts, but his PI loves him and promised him admission to a great med school in exchange for two years of his life.

Research and a decent LOR can get you some surprising attention in this process. Good luck!

 

[husky0684]

Most definately research and if you stick with a project long enough then authorship, no matter where you fit into the paper( 1st author, second, etc.) is a MAJOR plus. In addition, a lot of the top medical schools offer summer research programs so if you identify a top-tier school that you really like and you are early in your undergrad education then start looking into those summer programs..these programs are meant to be recruitment tools for the school so if you get accepted into one of their summer programs then it is a major shoe in for acceptance into grad/med school, and as well you will get to meet a lot of the faculty/admissions committee while you are working in their labs during the summer. This is only suggestions if you are actually interested in the research side of medicine, if not then look into other programs in your area of interest that will make you stand out as an applicant but make sure you enjoy those experiences and it will come through in your personal statement, interviews, etc..

 

[Misfit!]

Most definately research and if you stick with a project long enough then authorship, no matter where you fit into the paper( 1st author, second, etc.) is a MAJOR plus. In addition, a lot of the top medical schools offer summer research programs so if you identify a top-tier school that you really like and you are early in your undergrad education then start looking into those summer programs..these programs are meant to be recruitment tools for the school so if you get accepted into one of their summer programs then it is a major shoe in for acceptance into grad/med school, and as well you will get to meet a lot of the faculty/admissions committee while you are working in their labs during the summer. This is only suggestions if you are actually interested in the research side of medicine, if not then look into other programs in your area of interest that will make you stand out as an applicant but make sure you enjoy those experiences and it will come through in your personal statement, interviews, etc..

meh, I did two of those research programs at two separate top 5 research schools and they haven't helped me a bit at either of those places. They claim that they are there to recruit people, but I don't know of anyone from either program who actually got into those schools. It may help you get an interview if you're applying for MD/phd, but for MD they could really care less. For applying MD at top research schools, they are looking for more than just extensive lab work and pubs to give you an edge...if you are sooo interested in research than they would expect you do be applying for MSTP, not MD.

 

[husky0684]

meh, I did two of those research programs at two separate top 5 research schools and they haven't helped me a bit at either of those places. They claim that they are there to recruit people, but I don't know of anyone from either program who actually got into those schools. It may help you get an interview if you're applying for MD/phd, but for MD they could really care less. For applying MD at top research schools, they are looking for more than just extensive lab work and pubs to give you an edge...if you are sooo interested in research than they would expect you do be applying for MSTP, not MD.

I am not sure which programs you did but I also did two programs at two different top-tiered schools and got interviewed at both, acceptance at one, have to wait til march to hear back from the other..My stats are solid but not overly exceptional.. but at every interview I have been at, they have all commented on my summer experiences and various admissions directors at conferences such as Leadership Alliance have all stated that participation in summer research programs- if you are interested in RESEARCH SIDE OF MEDICINE- are a significant plus for getting into their medical schools...top tiered schools are all RESEARCH based schools so regardless of whether you are md/phd or md, you will be involved in some aspect of research along the way..now if you do a summer program and do not have a good experience, or do not come off well to your PI/program directors then the summer programs could in fact hurt your chances of acceptances...but to say top-tiered schools do not look favorably upon constructive, rewarding research experiences is misleading

 

[Misfit!]

I am not sure which programs you did but I also did two programs at two different top-tiered schools and got interviewed at both, acceptance at one, have to wait til march to hear back from the other..My stats are solid but not overly exceptional.. but at every interview I have been at, they have all commented on my summer experiences and various admissions directors at conferences such as Leadership Alliance have all stated that participation in summer research programs- if you are interested in RESEARCH SIDE OF MEDICINE- are a significant plus for getting into their medical schools...top tiered schools are all RESEARCH based schools so regardless of whether you are md/phd or md, you will be involved in some aspect of research along the way..now if you do a summer program and do not have a good experience, or do not come off well to your PI/program directors then the summer programs could in fact hurt your chances of acceptances...but to say top-tiered schools do not look favorably upon constructive, rewarding research experiences is misleading

I'm not saying they don't look favorably upon them, but I have yet to see these major benefits...it does not by any means make you a shoe-in. At one, for example (at Penn), a few people who did the program ended up applying to the school, had very exceptional stats and publications from their summer experiences, and only one that I know of got an interview and she didn't even get in. And I know of people whose ECs were very research heavy and were asked during interviews why they applied to MD and not MDphd if they were so interested in continuing in research. Anyways, research definitely helps, but in most cases you need to have very solid stats to begin with.

 

[photo_girl07]

Research definitely helps...you can also be talented and excel in some area...(it could be sports, arts, music, comm service, etc), which requires committment and glowing LORs....

just my 0.022 $

 

[Falco2525]

A first author in any peer reviewed journal is pretty impressive for a premed (unless they've had post grad experience), so that and maybe one or two mid authors should help secure some interviews at least, IMO.

I know it helped me...my stats are mediocre...GPA slightly below average and MCAT slightly above...but with my research reccomendations and my publication as first author I got accepted to U Chicago...interviewed at WashU and Cornell

 

[premeddick]

Yeah, I agree that the chance of a publication (or other to show your work, poster, abstract...) and a great letter of rec are critical rewards of doing research and should help in getting admitted to top tier research schools. I am interested in other stories of people who had a great research experience, mediocre to good scores and still got in to good schools. If anyone has any or had heard of anyone, I would love to hear it.

 

[KaraKiz]

.

 

[KaraKiz]

I got an interview (OOS) at UCSF with a first-author paper, 3.96 GPA, 31P. Could still get rejected, but even getting an interview there OOS is pretty hard.

G'Luck!

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Highly ranked schools drool over significant leadership experiences (i.e. college president, founder of a nonprofit, peace corps, military, etc.). Research experience is a given. Publications aren't that important. These schools want to train future leaders in medicine. It's easier to show leadership potential by running an organization than by being the 9th author on some publication.

This is coming from a student interviewer referencing comments from the admissions committee.

 

[premeddick]

Highly ranked schools drool over significant leadership experiences (i.e. college president, founder of a nonprofit, peace corps, military, etc.). Research experience is a given. Publications aren't that important. These schools want to train future leaders in medicine. It's easier to show leadership potential by running an organization than by being the 9th author on some publication.

This is coming from a student interviewer referencing comments from the admissions committee.

Yeah it makes sense that having tremendous leadership experience is better than being ninth author. But doesnt being 1st, 2nd, or 3rd author count for something equivilant or maybe less so. I think getting through the peer review process, especially as an undergrad or post bacc, is a tremendous accomplishment.

 

[MWillie]

Highly ranked schools drool over significant leadership experiences (i.e. college president, founder of a nonprofit, peace corps, military, etc.). Research experience is a given. Publications aren't that important. These schools want to train future leaders in medicine. It's easier to show leadership potential by running an organization than by being the 9th author on some publication.

This is coming from a student interviewer referencing comments from the admissions committee.

You heard it from another student who heard it from an adcom? Wow, thats just for sure then.

Publications, and the research funding that comes with them, are the backbone of academic institutions and academic prestige. Your school sounds like it wants to train hospital administrators rather than Nobel Prize winners.

What school do you go to again?

 

[RustNeverSleeps]

You heard it from another student who heard it from an adcom? Wow, thats just for sure then.

Publications, and the research funding that comes with them, are the backbone of academic institutions and academic prestige. Your school sounds like it wants to train hospital administrators rather than Nobel Prize winners.

What school do you go to again?

MWillie, do you go to WashU by any chance? If you are an applicant, are they your top choice?

 

[MWillie]

MWillie, do you go to WashU by any chance? If you are an applicant, are they your top choice?

Yes, I am an MS 2. I should be studying for boards.

 

[RustNeverSleeps]

Yes, I am an MS 2. I should be studying for boards.

As a caution to applicants, don't put too many eggs in the research basket. From what I have seen, publishing will not make up for significant weaknesses in other areas of the application. The importance of researching, even at top research schools, will vary with the adcom's philosophy (numbers ****** versus whole-person view, for instance).

As for me, when I evaluate applicants' research, especially during an interview, my primary goal is to evaluate their understanding of it. Many interviewees cannot give a good description of their research or answer relatively basic questions about it. Published or not, the applicants who know their research really well make the best impression on me.

 

[MWillie]

As for me, when I evaluate applicants' research, especially during an interview, my primary goal is to evaluate their understanding of it. Many interviewees cannot give a good description of their research or answer relatively basic questions about it. Published or not, the applicants who know their research really well make the best impression on me.

Agreed, you definitely better understand your research. I'd imagine the first author by default does, but if you're a middle author read up on your stuff.

Also, NO extracurricular activity can make up for significant deficiencies in GPA or MCAT.

 

[tp709]

Also, NO extracurricular activity can make up for significant deficiencies in GPA or MCAT.

I constantly wonder what is considered to be a significant deficiency in GPA or MCAT. Like, for the latter, would it be, say, a 25? Or would it be more a 29-30 at some top schools? I'm always curious as to what degree of numerical deficiency can be saved by extracurriculars, and what is hopeless.

 

[MWillie]

I constantly wonder what is considered to be a significant deficiency in GPA or MCAT. Like, for the latter, would it be, say, a 25? Or would it be more a 29-30 at some top schools? I'm always curious as to what degree of numerical deficiency can be saved by extracurriculars, and what is hopeless.

Haha, now that's difficult to say. Anyone's guess is as good as mine but I'll speculate. I'd say good EC's can be equivalent to a .2-.3 boost on the GPA and a 2 to 3 point boost on the MCAT. So that someone with a 3.5 and a 29 and great EC's is about equivalent to someone with 3.7 and 31 with run of the mill EC's.

From 25 there is no hope (unless URM, which id equate to a 5-6 point boost) but 29-30 with good EC's has a reasonable shot.

But really, the best use of EC's is after you have above average stats to ensure an acceptance.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Publications, and the research funding that comes with them, are the backbone of academic institutions and academic prestige. Your school sounds like it wants to train hospital administrators rather than Nobel Prize winners.

Med schools training Nobel Prize winners? You sure about that?

 

[KaraKiz]

To add to the discussion, I am not a URM, and I didnt just have a paper. I also have a boatload of community service, leadership, and volunteering experience. I have strong clinical experience, in addition to a good GPA and research experience up the wahzoo.

My point was I thought I'd be an automatic rejection from the top schools b/c I didn't have a phenomenal MCAT score (this seems to fall along the lines of your concerns). I (and everyone else for that matter) was shocked when I got an invitation to interview and almost didn't even apply to UCSF b/c "they, like, dont take anybody from out of state..." I have probably jinxed myself by talking about all of this, so when I get rejected from UCSF, I'll know why. But my point was, if you are worried about one part of your application, do your best beefing up the rest, and hope for the best. If you are lucky, some great schools will be able to see past a few numbers and see a great application.

 

[premeddick]

I constantly wonder what is considered to be a significant deficiency in GPA or MCAT. Like, for the latter, would it be, say, a 25? Or would it be more a 29-30 at some top schools? I'm always curious as to what degree of numerical deficiency can be saved by extracurriculars, and what is hopeless.

I dont think a 25 is salvagable regardless of the EC's. But a 30, with some great ECs might be enough, right? I mean if a school like northwestern has an average mcat of 33, then a thirty would be enough if you had some great EC's just like a 39 would be enough with mediocre EC's. Agree of disagree?

 

[MrBurns10]

I am curious what types of things people have done who have been accepted into top-tier research schools with stats less than the average for that school. What have you done to make yourself stand out? What sort of EC's, research and volunteering do you believe gave you the edge to get in with an MCAT and GPA less than average for the school? Thanks for your help.

I'll respond here, even though I find it ironic that I hate basic science research and go to arguably the most research-intensive med school. For those people that say "don't do anything just for the adcom", I don't think that's true for research. You HAVE to give it a chance. Of course there are people who never did an ounce of it, but I don't think that's very common. I did three semesters of independent study in college, then took a year off and did basic research in another department (at the same med school I go to now...I was also an undergrad here, which helped me). I was an EMT for 3 years, volunteering for my campus' squad about 30-35 hours/week (but you can do homework while on call...it's not like your typical job). I did some other stuff, but those were the two biggies. Then I had what I believe to be very solid LORs plus I sent a letter of intent. All those things were factors that helped get me accepted even though my MCAT and GPA were slightly below the accepted average.

 

[premeddick]

I'll respond here, even though I find it ironic that I hate basic science research and go to arguably the most research-intensive med school. For those people that say "don't do anything just for the adcom", I don't think that's true for research. You HAVE to give it a chance. Of course there are people who never did an ounce of it, but I don't think that's very common. I did three semesters of independent study in college, then took a year off and did basic research in another department (at the same med school I go to now...I was also an undergrad here, which helped me). I was an EMT for 3 years, volunteering for my campus' squad about 30-35 hours/week (but you can do homework while on call...it's not like your typical job). I did some other stuff, but those were the two biggies. Then I had what I believe to be very solid LORs plus I sent a letter of intent. All those things were factors that helped get me accepted even though my MCAT and GPA were slightly below the accepted average.

What school do you go to?

 

[MrBurns10]

What school do you go to?

Duke

 

[premeddick]

I had a question but i didnt want to start a new thread for it. How did everyone enter their clinical experience on their amcas? Is there a way to enter the number of hours that you shadowed a physician on the amcas?

What did you all do?

 

[Scottish Chap]

I am curious what types of things people have done who have been accepted into top-tier research schools with stats less than the average for that school. What have you done to make yourself stand out? What sort of EC's, research and volunteering do you believe gave you the edge to get in with an MCAT and GPA less than average for the school? Thanks for your help.

Like any U.S. allopathic school, a solid GPA and MCAT are pretty much essential. Without that, it's very hard to gain admission - regardless of impressive experiences. Now, that said, I know several people with 'okay' statistics who have been accepted to top research schools based on the fact that they have a few publications or a Ph.D. In fact, I know a couple of Ph.D.'s who were interviewed at Harvard with mediocre MCAT's and GPA's (by Harvard's average, that is).

In the end, keep in mind that you're in medical school to learn medicine and so there is not a huge advantage in attending a reseach-focused medical school unless you embark on a Ph.D. or take a year out to focus on research. Realistically, you're only going to have the summer between MSI and MSII and then elective time in 4th year, so the quality of the research might be questionable. Also, having worked at a few top medical schools I can tell you that a lot of the people teaching in the basic science curriculum of medical school are not doing it out of choice - research is where they are rewarded and, while some of them do an excellent job in their teaching, many of them care less about M.D. students. Good luck!