Top tier school vs mid tier for neurosurgery matching - does it matter?

[thesauce]

I think your post illustrates many ways that it didn't help her. First off, she sacrificed 2 years to get into the school in the first place. It would have been significantly more beneficial to do that research while a med student at the first school she got into. Secondly, and here's the big one: she didn't even match! You said she matched into the Texas program when the spot opened up at the last minute, but that's not how the match works. More likely, she took the spot outside of the match, which is typically far less selective b/c the top candidates actually matched. The transfer had nothing to do with going to UDub. The Cali program had a spot and needed a warm body who was PGY2 or 3 neurosurg.

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[Narmerguy]

A higher match rate doesn't necessarily mean it was the school's name that did it. Correlation =/= blah blah blah you get it.

I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand. I almost assume that they're joking when they make these connections until they start seriously arguing for it.

I'll give you this though, it looks like 75% of their residents (neurosurgery) at Hopkins received their MD from Hopkins. Talk about an incestuous relationship.

That's pretty bad

Perhaps pre-meds shouldn't be the one's commenting, since they have not gone through the process...

Yeah we need to get more med students in here (the entire pre-allo, not this thread) but it never happens so it's usually just the nearly blind leading the blind.

 

[thesauce]

K, well my copy/paste function's apparently busted, but check out the Youtube video on the UWSOM admissions page entitled "the application", specifically minute 5:15. As you'll see, the low(er) averages are not necessarily due to a lack applicants with high numbers, as is sometimes the cause for the D.O v. MD stats lag. In fact a large percentage of the class seems to be deliberately picked from the sub-3.5 crowd, which may weigh down avg stats despite respectable number of very well-qualified applicants applying

Man, good call. The admissions homepage would've definitely said upfront if they were more interested in numbers than EC's. Good evidence.

 

[Law2Doc]

1) Does it? I know that it also factors in residency director opinion, which may be because of quality or be confounded by the far more common primary care resident that is from UWash. Also, while numbers are only one factor they do make up 30% of the rank. That's pretty huge. Add subjective evaluation by deans and residency directors and thats another 40%. So 30% is definitely based on numbers and another 40% is potentially based on numbers or actually on quality. The other 30% is based MCAT score, GPA, the number of faculty, and student selectivity.These things don't seem to be direct measures of the quality of clinical training that you are going to get (though I guess we could make an argument for number of professors. Chances of finding a good one increases I suppose).
...

Agreed, the driving force of the primary care rankings is the % of folks who go into primary care. Which really is a backhanded way of saying that they are ranking high the programs that do most poorly in terms of folks going into specialties. Which is why nobody on pre-allo generally looks at primary care as a useful ranking -- it's research rankings or don't bother looking. The research rankings are horribly faulty as well, but since there is some correlation between a well NIH grant funded program and a prestigious one, it's fair to say that the research ranking is a very loose yardstick for measuring prestige. Meaning the Harvards and Hopkins make it to the top of that ranking and the top twenty or so tend to be the most prestigious of med schools. If you look instead at the primary care rankings, you will see non-allo schools among the top ranked. I don't think there is any basis to suggest that the primary care rankings have any relation to quality of primary care teaching, or that the folks coming from those schools do better in primary care than, say, Harvard or Hopkins. But they are ranked higher because more of the Harvard/Hopkins crowd go on to specialties. So basically the primary care ranking is a consolation prize ranking for some places that don't do as well in the prestige category. The programs that brag about this are looking for something to brag about. Don't drink the Koolaid.

 

[WNT Signaling]

There was a PD a few months who posted on a similar thread, and he made the point that if name matters even a little, then yes, it does matter.

Re: research rankings, outside the top 20 schools, if you compare the US News research rankings to a ranking of total NIH funding, the lists don't match up. For example, I find it funny that St. Louis University is ranked in the top 60 schools when there are dozens (literally dozens) of med schools that have significantly more research funding that are not ranked. Hell, if you look at US News, you'll notice that not all schools submit data, so these institutions can't even be ranked!

Re: primary care, the US News statistics reflect the percentage of students that enter a primary care residency, but they do not reflect what percentage of IM and peds residents will ultimately complete a fellowship

 

[dingyibvs]

Lol, of course it matters. It matters for applying to med schools and it sure as heck matters for residency applications.

Take Case Western for example, it's not Hopkins or anything but they have a very good reputation. Their average board score is ~224, which is pretty average, but check out their match list:

http://casemed.case.edu/admissions/images/2009 Anonymized List.pdf

Compare it with other schools with lesser reputation and tell me if it matters.

 

[amakhosidlo]

Man, good call. The admissions homepage would've definitely said upfront if they were more interested in numbers than EC's. Good evidence.

. It wasn't the home page, it was a summary of a townhall session held with our dean of admissions. Did you look at the chart? I suppose it doesn't matter, but at least give an argument a fair hearing before passing it off out of hand.

Agreed, the driving force of the primary care rankings is the % of folks who go into primary care. Which really is a backhanded way of saying that they are ranking high the programs that do most poorly in terms of folks going into specialties.

Of course, because only people who don't have a great shot at specializing go into primary care, right?

So basically the primary care ranking is a consolation prize ranking for some places that don't do as well in the prestige category. The programs that brag about this are looking for something to brag about. Don't drink the Koolaid.

Or...they want to attract students interested in primary care? And to be be honest I've never heard a school brag about its ranking, on any list. Again, I don't understand your bias against PC. Programs 'brag' about how many specialists they place by publishing match lists for prospective students to review, yet we're always warned about how pointless it is to judge a school based on the quality of their match list due to the confounding influence of student interests....

 

[Morsetlis]

Blessed is the school with more ophthalmology matches than FP matches.

 

[dingyibvs]

Blessed is the school with more ophthalmology matches than FP matches.

Hah, I thought it was really weird too. There are more matched into orthopedic surgery and ophthalmology than family medicine? wtf? And just one less matched into Derm too lol.

 

[Law2Doc]

...


Of course, because only people who don't have a great shot at specializing go into primary care, right?

....

Um no, you misunderstand. There's nothing bad about going into primary care. If you want to go into it, that's awesome. But you can get there from any med school, be it Harvard or NonrankedNoname Med. But there's nothing in the "primary care" ranking that suggests the higher ranked places are better at training primary care folks, only that more people end up in these fields (either by choice or default -- you cannot tell which from the ranking). My point is that a "ranking" that is based on the % of folks who go into primary care is equally a ranking of % of folks who don't go into non-primary care. Since the primary care fields as a group aren't competitive specialties, this is, in fact, a ranking that to some extent ranks as a positive the % of folks who don't get into competitive fields, not how great the program is in getting folks into the non-competitive fields. If you wanted to go into primary care, I would suggest that this ranking doesn't even help you. You still would want to go where the training is better, not simply be surrounded by folks who default into the field. And this list doesn't tell you that. Not at all. It just tells you that some programs, including a number of DO programs, end up with a sizeable percentage of their class ending up in FM, IM, Peds.

But you can end up in any specialty from any program (which is really the point of the original question in this thread). The same is true for neurosurg or peds. But if you are going to use a ranking to help you decide which school is "better" it has to at least be measuring something useful. I get the folks who want to gauge prestige by using the research rankings -- won't really translate into a better residency IMHO, but at least you can wow friends and family at Thanksgiving. But I sure don't get using the primary care rankings which only tell you that a lot of people end up in a certain path.

 

[Law2Doc]

...And to be be honest I've never heard a school brag about its ranking, on any list. ....

If you actually read the brochures programs hand out on interview day, you will often see the US News rankings highlighted. The top researched ranking schools don't usually mention the primary care ranking, but the lower ranked places frequently mention where they fall on the primary care ranking (ie the consolation prize).

 

[fahimaz7]

You seem to be very agitated by the data. I wonder why?

I'm not agitated. I know that it doesn't matter what school you go to, if you come out with a GPA >3.75 and a good board score, you control your own destiny.

This thread makes it sound like the only way to match neurosurgery is to go to a top 10 program. Since I'm in a ~40ish program, and we match 2-3 neurosurgery/year, I like to call a foul when I see it. Even then, Mercer SOM matched 2 Neurosurgery guys two years ago. They are almost dead last in the US news ranking.

Medical school isn't undergrad. For the most part, every medical school in the US is damn fine, and if the student works hard, they control their own destiny.

Here's the match list from last year. As you can see, the only way to get into an "competitive" specialty is to go to Harvard. The match was 2008. In 2009, we had 19 diagnostic radiology matches.

t. Vincents Hospital-New York, NY Anesthesiology
U Texas SW Med School-Dallas, TX Anesthesiology
Baylor College of Med-Houston, TX Anesthesiology
U Texas Med Sch-Houston, TX Anesthesiology
U Louisville SOM-KY Anesthesiology
Emory Univ SOM-Atlanta, GA Anesthesiology
U Tenn Grad SOM-Knoxville, TN Anesthesiology
Mayo School of Grad -Jacksonville, FL Anesthesiology
Virginia Mason Med Ctr-Seattle, WA Anesthesiology
U Texas SW Med Sch-Dallas, TX Anesthesiology
Wake Forest Baptist -Winston-Salem, NC Anesthesiology
Vanderbilt Univ Med Ctr-Nashville, TN Anesthesiology
Emory Univ SOM-Atlanta, GA Anesthesiology
Ochsner Clinic Foundation-New Orleans, LA Anesthesiology
U Alabama Med Ctr-Birmingham, AL Anesthesiology
Uof Arkansas, COM-Little Rock, ARK Anesthesiology
Johns Hopkins Hosp-Baltimore, MD Anesthesiology/Mercy
Emory Univ SOM-Atlanta, GA Anesthesiology-Prelim
Univ of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh, PA Child Neurology
St Louis Univ SOM-MO Dermatology
U Illinois COM-Chicago, IL Emergency Medicine
U Illinois COM-Chicago, IL Emergency Medicine
Hershey Med Ctr/Penn State-Hershey, PA Emergency Medicine
NY Methodist Hospital-Brooklyn, NY Emergency Medicine
Michigan State University Hospital-Lansing, MI Emergency Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Emergency Medicine
NYP Hosp-Columbia & Cornell-New York, NY Emergency Medicine
U of Florida COM-Shands-Gainesville, FL Emergency Medicine
Morristown Mem Hosp-Morristown, NJ Emergency Medicine
U Tennessee COM-Chattanooga, TN Emergency Medicine
Indiana Univ Sch Of Med-Indianapolis, IN Emergency Medicine
U Massachusetts Med School-Worcester, MA Emergency Medicine
U of Florida COM-Shands Gainesville, FL Emergency Medicine
U North Carolina Hospitals-Chapel Hill, NC Emergency Medicine
U of Florida COM-Shands -Gainesville, FL Emergency Medicine
LSUHSC-Shreveport-Shreveport, LA Emergency Medicine
East Tennessee St Univ-Johnson City, TN Family Med/Kingsport
Spartanburg Reg Healthcare-Spartanburg, SC Family Medicine
Riverside Methodist-Columbus, OH Family Medicine
Moses H. Cone Mem Hosp-Greensboro, NC Family Medicine
Anderson Area Med Lakes-Anderson, SC Family Medicine
Mayo School of Grad -Jacksonville, FL Family Medicine
Wake Forest Baptist -Winston-Salem, NC Family Medicine
Palmetto Health Richland-Columbia, SC Family Medicine
Self Regional Healthcare-Greenwood, SC Family Medicine
Self Regional Healthcare-Greenwood, SC Family Medicine
Contra Costa Reg Med Ctr-Martinez, CA Family Medicine
Palmetto Health Richland-Columbia, SC Family Medicine
Self Regional Healthcare-Greenwood, SC Family Medicine
Beth Israel Med Ctr-New York, NY General Surgery
U of Florida COM-Shands -Gainesville, FL General Surgery
Carilion Clinic-Roanoke, VA General Surgery
Atlanta Med Ctr-Atlanta, GA General Surgery
Spartanburg Reg Healthcare-Spartanburg, SC General Surgery
Baylor U Med Ctr-Dallas-TX General Surgery
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA General Surgery
Staten Island U Hosp-Staten Island, NY General Surgery
U Illinois COM-Chicago, IL Internal Medicine
Wake Forest Baptist Med -Winston Salem, NC Internal Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Internal Medicine
Boston Univ Med Center-Boston, MA Internal Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Internal Medicine
Temple University Hospital - Philadelphia, PA Internal Medicine
U of Florida COM-Shands Gainesville, FL Internal Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Internal Medicine
Wake Forest Baptist-Winston-Salem, NC Internal Medicine
U Kentucky Med Ctr-, KY-Lexington, KY Internal Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Internal Medicine
Emory Univ SOM-Atlanta, GA Internal Medicine
U Kentucky Med Ctr-Lexington, KY Internal Medicine
Mayo School of Grad Med Educ-, FL Internal Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Internal Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Internal Medicine
UC San Diego Med Ctr-San Diego, CA Internal Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Internal Medicine
Naval Medical Center-Portsmouth, VA Internal Medicine
Temple University Hospital - Philadelphia, PA Internal Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Internal Medicine
Hosp of the Univ of PA-Philadelphia, PA Internal Medicine
Emory Univ SOM-Atlanta, GA Internal Medicine
UMDNJ-R W Johnson-New Brunswick, NJ Internal Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Internal Medicine
University of WA SOM-Seattle, WA Internal Medicine
Baylor College of Med-Houston, TX Internal Medicine
Virginia Commonwealth U Hlth , VA Internal Medicine
Medical University of SC-Charleston, SC Internal Medicine
U Alabama Med Ctr-Birmingham, AL Internal Medicine
Loyola Univ Med Ctr-Maywood, IL Internal Medicine
Palmetto Health Richland-Columbia, SC Internal Medicine
Greenville Hosp Sys/Univ -Greenville, SC Medicine-Pediatrics
Greenville Hosp Sys/Univ Greenville, SC Medicine-Pediatrics
East Tennessee St Univ-Johnson City, TN Medicine-Psychiatry
Duke Univ Med Ctr-Durham, NC Med-Prelim/Neurology
University Hosps-Jackson-MS Med-Prelim/Ophthalmology
U Rochester/Strong Mem-Rochester, NY Neurology
University of South Alabama-Mobile, AL Neurology
Boston Univ Med Center-Boston, MA Neurology
NYP Hosp-Weill Cornell Med Ctr-New York, NY Neurology
Duke Univ Med Ctr-Durham, NC Neurology
Georgetown Univ Hosp-Washington, DC Neurosurgery
Wake Forest Baptist Med Ctr-, NC Neurosurgery
U of Florida COM-Shands , FL Obstetrics-Gynecology
U Illinois COM-Chicago, IL Obstetrics-Gynecology
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Obstetrics-Gynecology
U Kentucky Med Ctr-Lexington, KY Obstetrics-Gynecology
Naval Medical Center-Portsmouth, VA Obstetrics-Gynecology
Carolinas Med Ctr-Charlotte, NC Obstetrics-Gynecology
U Florida COM-Jacksonville, FL Obstetrics-Gynecology
Sinai Hosp-Baltimore-MD Obstetrics-Gynecology
Naval Medical Center-San Diego, CA Obstetrics-Gynecology
Greenville Hosp Sys/Univ, SC Obstetrics-Gynecology
U Iowa Hosps and Clinics-Iowa City, IA Obstetrics-Gynecology
UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical Sch-Newark, NJ Ophthalmology
University of TX-Houston, TX Ophthalmology
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Ophthalmology
U Minnesota Med School – Minneapolis, MN Orthopaedic Surgery
U Tennessee COM-Memphis, TN Orthopaedic Surgery
Carolinas Med Ctr-Charlotte, NC Orthopaedic Surgery
U Kentucky Med Ctr-Lexington, KY Orthopaedic Surgery
U Tennessee COM-Chattanooga, TN Orthopaedic Surgery
Ochsner Clinic Foundation-New Orleans, LA Orthopaedic Surgery
George Washington Univ-Washington, DC Orthopaedic Surgery
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Orthopaedic Surgery
West Virginia University SOM, WV Otolaryngology
Geisinger Health System-Danville, PA Otolaryngology
Ohio State Univ Med Ctr-Columbus, OH Otolaryngology
University of Virginia-Charlottesville, VA Otolaryngology
University Hosps-Columbia, MO Otolaryngology
University of Virginia-Charlottesville, VA Pathology
Emory Univ SOM-Atlanta, GA Pathology
Johns Hopkins Hosp-Baltimore, MD Pathology
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Pediatrics
Emory Univ SOM-Atlanta, GA Pediatrics
Carolinas Med Ctr-Charlotte, NC Pediatrics
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Pediatrics
Medical University of SC-Charleston, SC Pediatrics
U Tennessee COM-Memphis, TN Pediatrics
U of Florida COM-Shands, FL Pediatrics
U Colorado SOM-Denver-Aurora, CO Pediatrics
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Pediatrics
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Pediatrics
Tulane Univ SOM-New Orleans, LA Pediatrics
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Pediatrics
U Alabama Med Ctr-Birmingham, AL Pediatrics
Morehouse Sch of Med-Atlanta, GA Pediatrics
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Pediatrics
Wake Forest Baptist Med Ctr, NC Pediatrics
Morehouse Sch of Med-Atlanta, GA Pediatrics
Emory Univ SOM-Atlanta, GA Pediatrics
U North Carolina Hospitals-Chapel Hill, NC Pediatrics
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Pediatrics
Nationwide Childrens Hosp-Columbus, OH Pediatrics
Jackson Memorial Hosp-Miami, FL Pediatrics
UPMC Medical Education Prog-Pittsburgh, PA Pediatrics
Emory Univ SOM-Atlanta, GA Pediatrics
Palmetto Health Richland-Columbia, SC Pediatrics
Emory Univ SOM-Atlanta, GA Pediatrics
Johns Hopkins Hosp-Baltimore, MD Pediatrics
Geisinger Health System-Danville, PA Pediatrics-Preliminary
U Michigan Hosps-Ann Arbor, MI Plastic Surgery
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Preliminary Medicine
Maimonides Med Ctr-Brooklyn, NY Preliminary Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Preliminary Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Preliminary Medicine
Carilion Clinic-Roanoke, VA Preliminary Medicine
Westchester Med Ctr-Valhalla, NY Preliminary Medicine
U Alabama Med Ctr-Montgomery, AL Preliminary Medicine
Boston Univ Med Center-Boston, MA Preliminary Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Preliminary Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Preliminary Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Preliminary Medicine
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Preliminary Surgery
Wake Forest Baptist Med Ctr-Winston-Salem, NC Preliminary Surgery
Palmetto Hlth Richland- Columbia, SC Preliminary Surgery
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Preliminary Surgery
U Texas SW Med Sch-Dallas Psychiatry
U Alabama Med Ctr-Birmingham, AL Psychiatry
U North Carolina Hospitals-Chapel Hill, NC Psychiatry
U Colorado SOM-Denver-Aurora, CO Psychiatry
Emory Univ SOM-Atlanta, GA Radiology-Diagnostic
U Alabama Med Ctr-Birmingham, AL Radiology-Diagnostic
Wake Forest Baptist Med Ctr-Winston-Salem, NC Radiology-Diagnostic
U Alabama Med Ctr-Birmingham, AL Radiology-Diagnostic
U Kentucky Med Ctr-Lexington, KY Radiology-Diagnostic
Emory Univ SOM-Atlanta, GA Radiology-Preliminary
Medical College of Georgia-Augusta, GA Research-Orthopaedic Surgery
SUNY HSC Brooklyn-NY Surgery-Preliminary
U Tenn Grad SOM-Knoxville, TN Trans/Anesthesia P
Baptist Health System-Birmingham, AL Transitional
Spartanburg Reg Healthcare-Spartanburg, SC Transitional
Baptist Health System-Birmingham, AL Transitional
Naval Medical Center-Portsmouth, VA Transitional
West Virginia University SOM – Morgantown, WV Transitional
U Texas Med Branch-Galveston, TX Transitional/Austin

 

[dingyibvs]

If you actually read the brochures programs hand out on interview day, you will often see the US News rankings highlighted. The top researched ranking schools don't usually mention the primary care ranking, but the lower ranked places frequently mention where they fall on the primary care ranking (ie the consolation prize).

Plus, schools that aren't ranked or are lowly ranked on either would often openly bash the rankings system. For example, at my interview at OSU, they had a board with their rankings since 2003 facing the front door, showing their climb from #43 or something in 03 to #27 in 09. At UCF, OTOH, the admissions director bashed the rankings system senseless during our tour.

 

[amakhosidlo]

I realize that that was the basis for your argument, but that doesn't change the fact that you use terms like "backhanded" and "consolation prize" in making it (Though if this is actually how more prestigious schools view primary care, that's how it's viewed I guess, it'd be pretty messed up though)

And when you look at it, the top 20 PC schools aren't really at a loss of things to brag about. UCSF, Penn, Harvard, UMich, UCLA, UW Etc. Really? They're groping around for things to be proud of?

I personally think USN is a rag and agree with you that their rankings don't mean much, but I highly doubt that family members/friends would have the slightest idea what a ranking on either list actually means, or even that there are two different rankings. Beyond the Ivy's, pretty sure all your folks ever hear is "medical school".

 

[searun]

Seriously, guys, this whole "My school is better than your school" is really kind of pointless. Useless and pointless.

 

[amakhosidlo]

And 3/4 of posts on SDN are...

 

[fahimaz7]

And 3/4 of posts on SDN are...

About how they should pick X school over Y school, even though tuition is 30k more/year in order to get moved up a few slots on the us news ranking.

At Umass Neurosurgery...

The attendings come from

Harvard
JHopkins
Iowa
New York University
Univ. S. California
Dartmouth
Creighton
Duke
Rochester
And the Director of the program..... University of Chicago

Residents:

Yale
Univ. Arizona
UCLA
Harvard
University of Illinois, Chicago
Wash U
University of Arkansas
Duke
Loyola
Washington University, St Louis
Hopkins
Tulane




Only way is to be a top 10 program

 

[calvinNhobbes]

I'm not agitated.

Then why so serious?

I know that it doesn't matter what school you go to,

And you would be wrong. The data says otherwise.

if you come out with a GPA >3.75 and a good board score, you control your own destiny.

That is in fact, wrong. I know from experience.

This thread makes it sound like the only way to match neurosurgery is to go to a top 10 program.

No one ever said, especially NOT ME! But the fact remains, in 2009, over half the people who matched neurosurgery came from the top 40 while the other half came from the rest.

Since I'm in a ~40ish program, and we match 2-3 neurosurgery/year,

As you should, since their is no data that even SUGGESTS that 100% of neurosurgery residents come from the top 10 programs.

I like to call a foul when I see it.

Then you are blind since there is not foul.

Even then, Mercer SOM matched 2 Neurosurgery guys two years ago. They are almost dead last in the US news ranking.

And? Like I've already stated, almost HALF of people mathcing in neurosurgery are NOT top 40.

Medical school isn't undergrad. For the most part, every medical school in the US is damn fine, and if the student works hard, they control their own destiny.

But school still matters according to the NRMP data. Sorry if you refuse to accept that. As they say, ignorance is bliss.

Here's the match list from last year. As you can see, the only way to get into an "competitive" specialty is to go to Harvard.

Using hyperboles and setting up a strawman argument does not prove a point.

match list

And a schools ranked higher than yours have a more impressive match list. That's the data. Take it or leave it, but that's reality!

 

[calvinNhobbes]

Only way is to be a top 10 program

Nope, but it sure does help! (as your UMass example proves, a majority of both the attendings and residents are from top 40)

 

[dingyibvs]

Nope, but it sure does help!

I wish all med schools would make stats a prereq, it's terrible seeing future physicians completely unable to interpret data. In the future, he'll probably be the type of doctor that goes "see, clearly, a lot of non-smokers get lung cancer too, so cigarettes aren't the only thing causing lung cancer and therefore it's fine to smoke!"

Well of course cigarettes aren't the only thing causing lung cancer(going to a top 10 school isn't the only way to match into neurosurgery), nobody even suggested that. The point is that if you smoke, you're much more likely to get cancer given similar circumstances otherwise(if you're in a top 10 school, you're more likely to match into neurosurgery....).

 

[calvinNhobbes]

I wish all med schools would make stats a prereq, it's terrible seeing future physicians completely unable to interpret data.

Well, luckily, they try to teach that stuff in med school. So not all hope is lost for fahimaz7 yet.

 

[fahimaz7]

I wish all med schools would make stats a prereq, it's terrible seeing future physicians completely unable to interpret data. In the future, he'll probably be the type of doctor that goes "see, clearly, a lot of non-smokers get lung cancer too, so cigarettes aren't the only thing causing lung cancer and therefore it's fine to smoke!"

Well of course cigarettes aren't the only thing causing lung cancer(going to a top 10 school isn't the only way to match into neurosurgery), nobody even suggested that. The point is that if you smoke, you're much more likely to get cancer given similar circumstances otherwise(if you're in a top 10 school, you're more likely to match into neurosurgery....).

The Top 10 comment was on the original post. Secondly, I admitted there there is big difference between a school in the top 1/3 (or Top 10), and a school in the bottom 1/3 (or bottom 10), in terms of getting a "competitive residency". With that said, a great performance at any US medical school will set you up for any residency that you want (although you may not be at UMass for Derm).

I do like the statistics talk though. I really feel all warm and fuzzy getting a lecture on stats.

BTW, that's 50% of the successful applicants were from a school that ranked top 40 in NIH funding...

Remember, 190 total spots were offered. Would that translate to 45% of all neurosurgery spots going to Top 40 NIH applicants? Hmm..

 

[Parts Unknown]

I have been lucky to get interviews some of the best programs in IM. At each of these interviews, there were only a few students not from top schools. The worst example I can remember is one well known program where there were only 4 students from lesser known schools out of 39 students. Off of the top of my head I remember 5 from HMS, 4 from yale, 5 from UCSF, 5 from Columbia, a few from Chicago, and a few from hopkins at that interview. This wasn't just a one time occurrence. It happened pretty much at every top tier program I went to.

If school name didn't matter, there would have been a much more diverse group at each of these interviews.

Maybe, maybe not. Your analysis is confounded by selection bias.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I wish all med schools would make stats a prereq, it's terrible seeing future physicians completely unable to interpret data. In the future, he'll probably be the type of doctor that goes "see, clearly, a lot of non-smokers get lung cancer too, so cigarettes aren't the only thing causing lung cancer and therefore it's fine to smoke!"

Well of course cigarettes aren't the only thing causing lung cancer(going to a top 10 school isn't the only way to match into neurosurgery), nobody even suggested that. The point is that if you smoke, you're much more likely to get cancer given similar circumstances otherwise(if you're in a top 10 school, you're more likely to match into neurosurgery....).

well, since we ARE speaking stats here, what you have is a correlation, not a causation, which is different from the smoking analogy

 

[thesauce]

. It wasn't the home page, it was a summary of a townhall session held with our dean of admissions. Did you look at the chart? I suppose it doesn't matter, but at least give an argument a fair hearing before passing it off out of hand.

That's even worse. Obviously the guy is biased as his main job is to make the school look better to attract more applicants. Did you really expect him to come out and say that he prefers high stats over EC's? Come on now.

I have no idea which video you're referring to and I'm not about to go sifting through some school's admissions website after I finished medical school. If you have the video link handy, I'll take a gander.

 

[thesauce]

What exactly is being argued here? These are the simple facts:
1. Your medical school may play a role in residency selection. It depends upon the PD to what extent
2. Being a strong candidate outweighs which school you come from
3. For certain programs, you have to have both

The above applies to all competitive specialties.

Are we all in agreement here? Are there other issues on the table?

 

[gujuDoc]

I agree that the school you attend does matter some extent but to say it absolutely matters is also incorrect. I also feel a lot of premeds associate school reputation with the US News rankings which is not a good way to judge school reputation. It's more accurate to determine school reputation by what kind of physicians they turn out. Georgetown for example is ranked 30s but is reputed to get double-digit people into ortho. That's the type of reputation you should consider not "ambiguous rankings" like US News.

That and ranking of a residency program is not the same as ranking of a med school research ranking.. For instance, Umiami med is in the early 60s or late 50s in research rankings but it is number 1 for ophthamology training due to Bascom Palmer as well as high up there in anesthesiology training.

 

[drizzt3117]

That and ranking of a residency program is not the same as ranking of a med school research ranking.. For instance, Umiami med is in the early 60s or late 50s in research rankings but it is number 1 for ophthamology training due to Bascom Palmer as well as high up there in anesthesiology training.

And what does that mean to Miami med students? A quick search shows they've only matched 7 students into BP in the last 14 years.

 

[thesauce]

And what does that mean to Miami med students? A quick search shows they've only matched 7 students into BP in the last 14 years.

It means 2 things:
1. They have connections at their home programs and can more easily acquire LOR's/phone calls from top names in the field
2. They have a better chance of matching into ophtho at BP. A UMiami student matches there every other year which is obviously above average for med schools

Where were you going with this?

 

[drizzt3117]

It means 2 things:
1. They have connections at their home programs and can more easily acquire LOR's/phone calls from top names in the field
2. They have a better chance of matching into ophtho at BP. A UMiami student matches there every other year which is obviously above average for med schools

Where were you going with this?

I suppose it gives them a better chance then they otherwise would have given the lower rank of their medical school. A quick glance shows that every single resident or fellow in the program that isn't from Miami with two exceptions (out of 42) is from a top 40 medical school. I was thinking that Wilmer had a higher percentage of JHU grads in their program then they have but they do have at least 1 and usually two per year.

 

[45408]

If school name didn't matter, there would have been a much more diverse group at each of these interviews.

Unless the program director showed you the list of people who applied, and it was a much more diverse group, you can't assume that. It stands to reason that people who would apply to prestigious med schools would also apply to prestigious residencies. You have no idea who actually applied to these programs and who didn't care to apply.

 

[45408]

Lol, of course it matters. It matters for applying to med schools and it sure as heck matters for residency applications.

Take Case Western for example, it's not Hopkins or anything but they have a very good reputation. Their average board score is ~224, which is pretty average, but check out their match list:

http://casemed.case.edu/admissions/images/2009 Anonymized List.pdf

Compare it with other schools with lesser reputation and tell me if it matters.

Ah, even better, we have a pre-med laying it all down for us, and then breaks out the match list for good measure!

You guys misinterpret match lists so much by reading into them like this.

 

[gujuDoc]

And what does that mean to Miami med students? A quick search shows they've only matched 7 students into BP in the last 14 years.

My point wasn't that. My point was that assuming a top 20 ranked med school is same as top 20 ranked residency isn't the same. Pepole here need to look at that. I don't know why the stats are as they are. It could also have a lot to do with what people's interests are. Maybe not everyone is interested in the given field.

 

[J1515]

Unless the program director showed you the list of people who applied, and it was a much more diverse group, you can't assume that. It stands to reason that people who would apply to prestigious med schools would also apply to prestigious residencies. You have no idea who actually applied to these programs and who didn't care to apply.

Yup. It makes me wonder if some of the pre-meds and med students in here ever did an ounce of academic research seeing as how they don't understand the difference between 'causation' and 'correlation.' Looking at a matchlist and saying "well that must mean..." is probably the dumbest thing anyone can do. All a matchlist tells you is who matched where. It says nothing about the strength of a school, nothing about peoples' board scores or grades, nothing about if the match was a person's #1, 2, 3, 4, or 5, nothing about how many applied for a certain field, nothing about the quality of the applicant, and nothing about where else they applied.

 

[calvinNhobbes]

With that said, a great performance at any US medical school will set you up for any residency that you want

Unfortunately that is not true.
People with AOA and boards scores a standard deviation above the mean or more don't match every year. So much of it is politics, especially in the more competitive specialties. Residency is more like applying for a job than it is applying to college/med school.

 

[Narmerguy]

Unfortunately that is not true.
People with AOA and boards scores a standard deviation above the mean or more don't match every year. So much of it is politics, especially in the more competitive specialties. Residency is more like applying for a job than it is applying to college/med school.

Well this time they're paying you (slave wages though they be)

 

[fahimaz7]

Unfortunately that is not true.
People with AOA and boards scores a standard deviation above the mean or more don't match every year. So much of it is politics, especially in the more competitive specialties. Residency is more like applying for a job than it is applying to college/med school.

If they did get the interview, then they must be getting rejected b/c of the school that they went to. Right? It couldn't possibly be as a result of personality, location, interest in the school, reasons for wanting to be there, interview performance, letters of recommendation, previous exposure to the field, relevant publications in the field, etc?

I bet it's all about the NIH funding at that point in time...

On a side note, we've been told numerous times about the applicant that you mention (AOA w/ 250+ step one score), making a fatal mistake of only applying to a select few (maybe even a single program) locations. When they don't match, it was a huge shocker to the student, one that the residency chair tried to avoid when advising the student in the first place.

Apply broadly to increase your chances of finding a program with a similar personality as your own. That was their take home message.

 

[fahimaz7]

What exactly is being argued here? These are the simple facts:
1. Your medical school may play a role in residency selection. It depends upon the PD to what extent
2. Being a strong candidate outweighs which school you come from
3. For certain programs, you have to have both

The above applies to all competitive specialties.

Are we all in agreement here? Are there other issues on the table?

Couldn't agree more.

 

[paranoid99]

Couldn't agree more.

I disagree. School doesn't matter.
Check this out!Hopkins Orthopedic residents

http://www.hopkinsortho.org/514residents2014.jpg

 

[thesauce]

Ah, even better, we have a pre-med laying it all down for us, and then breaks out the match list for good measure!

Yes. If this doesn't settle things, nothing will.

 

[thesauce]

I disagree. School doesn't matter.
Check this out!Hopkins Orthopedic residents

http://www.hopkinsortho.org/514residents2014.jpg

Boy, you really put that controversy to rest...

 

[thamsenman]

I think this is just sort of the nature of pre-meds, to build categories and be competitive no matter what they are doing. I hope you'll enjoy that 7+ year neurosugery training.

Or cutting out your first eyeball.

Beautiful stuff.

 

[alibai3ah]

Um no, you misunderstand. There's nothing bad about going into primary care. If you want to go into it, that's awesome. But you can get there from any med school, be it Harvard or NonrankedNoname Med. But there's nothing in the "primary care" ranking that suggests the higher ranked places are better at training primary care folks, only that more people end up in these fields (either by choice or default -- you cannot tell which from the ranking). My point is that a "ranking" that is based on the % of folks who go into primary care is equally a ranking of % of folks who don't go into non-primary care. Since the primary care fields as a group aren't competitive specialties, this is, in fact, a ranking that to some extent ranks as a positive the % of folks who don't get into competitive fields, not how great the program is in getting folks into the non-competitive fields. If you wanted to go into primary care, I would suggest that this ranking doesn't even help you. You still would want to go where the training is better, not simply be surrounded by folks who default into the field. And this list doesn't tell you that. Not at all. It just tells you that some programs, including a number of DO programs, end up with a sizeable percentage of their class ending up in FM, IM, Peds.

But you can end up in any specialty from any program (which is really the point of the original question in this thread). The same is true for neurosurg or peds. But if you are going to use a ranking to help you decide which school is "better" it has to at least be measuring something useful. I get the folks who want to gauge prestige by using the research rankings -- won't really translate into a better residency IMHO, but at least you can wow friends and family at Thanksgiving. But I sure don't get using the primary care rankings which only tell you that a lot of people end up in a certain path.

You can get into a speciality from any school as well....

Those primary care rankings look at other factors as well besides how many people go into primary care. It's overall strength in clinical training that they are trying to show. Meaning when it comes to actual practice of medicine as in touching a patient, instead of running away because it's not a multiple choice test, you can actually do something about it....

Also the research rankings don't necessarily always correlate with prestige. For the top 15-20 they do, but many medical schools are ranked high but would not impress. Take for example, schools like Ohio State and Brown which are similarly ranked but miles apart in prestige. My intention isn't to put down the former school. I just think that both research rankings and primary care rankings are flawed. Most kids at a medical school level will not be PIs of their own research study and how much research money a school has will not affect them THAT much. Sure here and there, they will have more research opportunities but in the grand scheme of things it won't matter.

 

[calvinNhobbes]

It couldn't possibly be as a result of personality, location, interest in the school, reasons for wanting to be there, interview performance, letters of recommendation, previous exposure to the field, relevant publications in the field, etc?

Not according to you, and I quote:

With that said, a great performance at any US medical school will set you up for any residency that you want.

On a side note, we've been told numerous times about the applicant that you mention (AOA w/ 250+ step one score),

I didn't mention such an applicant, YOU brought it into the discussion!
And I quote:

if you come out with a GPA >3.75 and a good board score, you control your own destiny.

making a fatal mistake of only applying to a select few (maybe even a single program) locations.

Actually, that's rarely the case. Usually they rank 15+ places because they get that many interviews with such great stats.

I know this from my own personal experience. It's my observation that you are completely ignorant when it comes to the match process.

Apply broadly to increase your chances of finding a program with a similar personality as your own. That was their take home message.

As everyone knows that has done the match. But it doesn't matter how broadly you apply if you don't have the grades, boards, or school ( ie. the three parameters shown to be most significant to match success by NRMP data) to get the interviews.

 

[calvinNhobbes]

I disagree. School doesn't matter.
Check this out!Hopkins Orthopedic residents

http://www.hopkinsortho.org/514residents2014.jpg

And you are wrong, even by your own example.
Even in that extremely small sample size, you demonstrated that 60% of residents are from top 40 schools.

 

[paranoid99]

And you are wrong, even by your own example.
Even in that extremely small sample size, you demonstrated that 60% of residents are from top 40 schools.

Are you serious??seriously lol

Breakdown Orthopedic Surgery Residents Hopkins

1.Hopkins--Home program
2.Baylor---Top program..I agree
3.Rochester--??
4.Howard--??
5.Mississippi--??

Do you really know how competitive orthopedic is?

I reiterate your school does not make you,it all depends on your performance.

Oh and if I may ask,what is your new found obsession with top 40 schools?How many medical schools do we have anyway?

Ha..hah.May be i need to also start looking at the top 80.lol

Peace out!!

 

[drizzt3117]

The reason people are citing the top 40 is because that's what nrmp uses. Rochester is definitely a top 40 program.0

 

[calvinNhobbes]

Are you serious??seriously lol

Yes, I am serious.

Breakdown Orthopedic Surgery Residents Hopkins

1.Hopkins--Home program
2.Baylor---Top program..I agree
3.Rochester--??
4.Howard--??
5.Mississippi--??

Hopkins, Baylor and Rochester are all top 40 programs. 3 of 5 is 60%.
It truly scares me you do not understand this concept.

Do you really know how competitive orthopedic is?

As a matter of fact, yes. I've gone through the ortho match, twice.

I reiterate your school does not make you,it all depends on your performance.

And you would be wrong. As proven by the NRMP data, and your own pathetic attempts to prove otherwise.

FYI, just so you know, Rochester is not only a top 40 med school, but also very respected ortho faculty (ie important for LORs).

 

[Morsetlis]

As a matter of fact, yes. I've gone through the ortho match, twice.

Why twice? What happened?

 

[mmmcdowe]

I think people should take a deep breath and realize that where you attend medical school is secondary to where you were able to get into medical school. Why is anyone surprised that the top 40 schools have more students in competitive specialties? You have to bleed to match well or go into competitive specialties, and many of these kids have demonstrated their willingness and ability to do so just by making it into the more competitive medical schools.