Top tier school vs mid tier for neurosurgery matching - does it matter?

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Are you serious??seriously lol

Breakdown Orthopedic Surgery Residents Hopkins


1.Hopkins--Home program
2.Baylor---Top program..I agree
3.Rochester--??
4.Howard--??
5.Mississippi--??

Do you really know how competitive orthopedic is?

I reiterate your school does not make you,it all depends on your performance.

Oh and if I may ask,what is your new found obsession with top 40 schools?How many medical schools do we have anyway?

Ha..hah.May be i need to also start looking at the top 80.lol

Peace out!!

Do you really think you've proven a point by posting the Hopkins ortho match? It was stated, and should be exceedingly obvious, that residency selection criteria is highly program director specific. Not only that, it was also stated that the applicant strength is more important than the medical school he comes from. You posted this limited match info as some counter-argument, but it only provides more evidence for these statements.

BTW, is Hopkins an especially strong ortho residency? I've never heard it mentioned before.

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Wow, prestige is so important to you people. I hope you conveyed that you care what everyone thinks about you so much at your interviews.
 
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BTW, is Hopkins an especially strong ortho residency? I've never heard it mentioned before.

It is not generally included when discussing the elite ortho programs (although this topic is highly debatable and in constant flux).

Hopkins proposed weakness is usually the operative experience compared to other programs, especially with regard to trauma. That being said, I don't think anyone would be disappointed to match at Hopkins for ortho.
 
What exactly is being argued here? These are the simple facts:
1. Your medical school may play a role in residency selection. It depends upon the PD to what extent
2. Being a strong candidate outweighs which school you come from
3. For certain programs, you have to have both

The above applies to all competitive specialties.

Are we all in agreement here? Are there other issues on the table?

:thumbup:

Blessed is the school with more ophthalmology matches than FP matches.

Hah, I thought it was really weird too. There are more matched into orthopedic surgery and ophthalmology than family medicine? wtf? And just one less matched into Derm too lol.

Is it really that abnormal for a "top" school, though?
 
Because, like 157 other US Seniors that year, I failed to match the first time in around.

Was it the school that you went to? How do the mid-tier guys match into ortho? how do you have time in your residency to post on SDN? Lol this thread is getting ridiculous
 
Was it the school that you went to?
Actually, my academic "pedigree" was often mentioned at interviews, both the first and second time around. I think my undergrad was mentioned more often than my med school. It was often mentioned that someone with my academic background should have matched the first time. Such is life... the match is not a perfect system.

How do the mid-tier guys match into ortho?
You just don't get it do you? No one has said school is the ONLY thing that matters. It simply is a factor. Sigh... where is that dead horse.

how do you have time in your residency to post on SDN?
Who says I am in residency?


Lol this thread is getting ridiculous
Yes, perhaps those that have no idea what they are talking about should cease to make outlandish statements and stop confusing the poor pre-meds.
 
Not according to you, and I quote:




I didn't mention such an applicant, YOU brought it into the discussion!
And I quote:



Actually, that's rarely the case. Usually they rank 15+ places because they get that many interviews with such great stats.

I know this from my own personal experience. It's my observation that you are completely ignorant when it comes to the match process.


As everyone knows that has done the match. But it doesn't matter how broadly you apply if you don't have the grades, boards, or school ( ie. the three parameters shown to be most significant to match success by NRMP data) to get the interviews.
How many nits can a nitpick pick if a nitpick can pick nits?
 
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42, of course!

Just trying to battle ignorance the best I can...

B/c it's calvin that knows best! Always and forever. The funny thing is, we're saying the same thing.

Each program is different
Each panel selects applicants for different reasons
Grades and Board scores get you the interview
Personality, experience, letters, and interview performance get you on the list.
Schools may or may not matter. Location of your relatives, spouses's relatives, and ties to the city/region matter as well.
For most people, it doesn't matter where they end up for their residency.
This is the reason why I rarely appear on the pre-med forum.

Am I missing anything?

In response to Ortho match and a low tier school (Mercer SOM to be exact). This is what I've been trying to say. We should hug and make up.

___________________

11-06-2009, 08:56 AM #4
calvinNhobbes
Senior Member

Status: Post-Doc
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 117


"True, going to a "top tier" med school helps, but not much."
 
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B/c it's calvin that knows best!
I have experience and hard data. If you got something better, please let me know!

The funny thing is, we're saying the same thing.
Except, we're not.

Schools may or may not matter.
Wrong, school definitely matters. It is one of the few parameters the NRMP data reports that is significantly different between matched and unmatched applicants.

Am I missing anything?
Yep, that school MATTERS! :rolleyes:

me said:
"True, going to a "top tier" med school helps, but not much."
Exactly, it helps but not as much as AOA or boards, but it still MATTERS significantly! It matters more than the research or volunteer experiences or that extra MPH degree, etc, etc.

EDIT: I actually know several ortho residents from Mercer SOM. They have a tougher time cause they don't have a home ortho department. Many lower ranked schools have a problem with having certain specialties represented by their faculty. Another reason why school MATTERS!
 
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Exactly, it's hard to understand how someone who hasn't gone through the match to argue that school name does not matter. No one here is arguing that it's the only factor or even the most important thing, but it is still a major factor. Your school will never shut you out of a specialty or a top residency program, but the more prestigious a school is, the easier it is to match.
 
11-06-2009, 08:56 AM #4
calvinNhobbes
Senior Member

Status: Post-Doc
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 117


"True, going to a "top tier" med school helps, but not much."

Jee, you really are upset about this. Your data says tht 45% of the neuro guys, that matched, were from a top 40 NIH school. Is that right? So, 55% of the successfully matched applicants were from a school outside of the top 40. No?

I never said that academic pedigree doesn't matter. I said that you can still match into any specialty from any US medical school (if you have the scores).

I feel like I'm on Fox news or something.
 
As long as your percentages add up to 100%, you're fine ;p
 
Exactly, it's hard to understand how someone who hasn't gone through the match to argue that school name does not matter. No one here is arguing that it's the only factor or even the most important thing, but it is still a major factor. Your school will never shut you out of a specialty or a top residency program, but the more prestigious a school is, the easier it is to match.

You know as well as I do that residents can really only speak about their own program. Same with attending's. Each program has it's own formula for selecting residents. One programs diamond is another's worse nightmare.

It's the same as medical students talking about what the admissions committee wants to see. Do we really know what they are looking for? :smuggrin:

On a side note, the fact that's it's a Saturday night at 8pm, and we're all on here, is making me sad. I'm done caring about this thread, and I'm going to put on my rose colored glasses and continue to preach my ignorance to another audience. Take care :)
 
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Unless the program director showed you the list of people who applied, and it was a much more diverse group, you can't assume that. It stands to reason that people who would apply to prestigious med schools would also apply to prestigious residencies. You have no idea who actually applied to these programs and who didn't care to apply.

We don't know everything about anything, so let's stop having opinions altogether, shall we? Prestige matters, at all levels. It's just human nature. For now, I'm sticking with occam's razor and say that the simplest explanation, that they are biased toward prestigious med schools, is the best answer.

well, since we ARE speaking stats here, what you have is a correlation, not a causation, which is different from the smoking analogy

That's true, but due to the subjective nature of the application process, you can't prove without a doubt very many causative effects. In fact, it's been difficult to do it even for smoking.


Ah, even better, we have a pre-med laying it all down for us, and then breaks out the match list for good measure!

You guys misinterpret match lists so much by reading into them like this.

I assume you're rejecting the simplest explanation for much more complicated ones.
 
That's true, but due to the subjective nature of the application process, you can't prove without a doubt very many causative effects. In fact, it's been difficult to do it even for smoking.
exactly. all we're doing here is speculating, the data really tells us little imo
 
Jee, you really are upset about this.
Upset? Nope just passionate about education. ;)

Your data says tht 45% of the neuro guys, that matched, were from a top 40 NIH school. Is that right?
Uh, no, that is NOT right for two reasons. First, it is not MY data. I didn't collect it. It is the data from the NRMP, you know, the people that run the match! :rolleyes: And second, it is 50% of US Seniors. We don't know the data from the independents because it is not given. However, from my experience, those independents that manage to match the second time around are more often from top 40 schools.

So, 55% of the successfully matched applicants were from a school outside of the top 40. No?
Around 50%, we don't know for sure. Which means, a smaller group of people (top 40 students) are getting as many spots as a larger group of people (not top 40). No?

I never said that academic pedigree doesn't matter.
Actually, yes you did say that. And I quote:
Schools may or may not matter.
So which is it? Does school (ie academic pedigree) matter or not?

I said that you can still match into any specialty from any US medical school (if you have the scores).
Of course! The data proves that. No one is saying otherwise.

I feel like I'm on Fox news or something.
I think like I'm:
:beat:
 
Does Hopkins give you an advantage over Morehouse? Sure it does.. Does it give you an advantage over Ohio state, Wake Forest, or Colorado? Doubt it. And if it does, I don't want to be at the program. IMO, a 3.75/245 is the same, regardless of what school you went to.

As requested.
:D
 
fahimaz7 said:
As requested.
:D

Does Hopkins give you an advantage over Morehouse? Sure it does.. Does it give you an advantage over Ohio state, Wake Forest, or Colorado? Doubt it.

So you think it matters, but it doesn't. :rolleyes:

And if it does, I don't want to be at the program.

Believe me, you would rather be at any program, regardless of how they select their residents, than not match at all.
 
[/B]
So you think it matters, but it doesn't. :rolleyes:

.

Why are you making this into such a black and white issue? On the first page I laid out where I thought it mattered. I even said that it was my own opinion. Jeez.
 
Why are you making this into such a black and white issue?
Just making sure all the pre-meds are fully aware of the information.

On the first page I laid out where I thought it mattered. I even said that it was my own opinion. Jeez
Then why state it didn't matter after that? It confuses the facts. Pre-meds should know that where you go to med school matters for residency. It's an important decision and not to be taken lightly.
 
You know as well as I do that residents can really only speak about their own program. Same with attending's. Each program has it's own formula for selecting residents. One programs diamond is another's worse nightmare.

It's the same as medical students talking about what the admissions committee wants to see. Do we really know what they are looking for? :smuggrin:

On a side note, the fact that's it's a Saturday night at 8pm, and we're all on here, is making me sad. I'm done caring about this thread, and I'm going to put on my rose colored glasses and continue to preach my ignorance to another audience. Take care :)

I'm not stating I know how much school pedigree affects a program's decision making process, but I do know it is still a major contributor. I'll give you an example from some internal medicine programs. It's easier to compare internal medicine programs because they have so many more residents than neurosurgery or ortho. These were basically selected randomly, but one is a top 4 program, the other is a top tier, and the last two are mid tiers. Take a look at what medical schools the house staff had went to.

http://medicine.ucsf.edu/education/residency/current/
http://www.cornellmedicine.com/education/medicine_house_staff/index.html
http://medicine.georgetown.edu/residency/guhres.htm
http://internalmedicine.osu.edu/2620.cfm

Seems like UCSF's house staff is largely students from top programs. There are some residents who went to lower ranked schools (showing that med school pedigree is not the only important factor), but not very many. Cornell is a healthier mix of residents who went to top schools and mid schools, but still not very many lower tier schools. Georgetown and Ohio State have residents who went to mid to lower tier schools for the most part. You can argue that correlation does not equal causation but I will still argue there's more to it than that.
 
Just making sure all the pre-meds are fully aware of the information.


Then why state it didn't matter after that? It confuses the facts. Pre-meds should know that where you go to med school matters for residency. It's an important decision and not to be taken lightly.

Agreed. I just want to state that it should not be the most important aspect of the decision of selecting a med school. Cost matters a lot, location and happiness are very important. But I agree with you that it should be known that choosing a less prestigious med school for those reasons is a potential trade-off.
 
Agreed. I just want to state that it should not be the most important aspect of the decision of selecting a med school. Cost matters a lot, location and happiness are very important. But I agree with you that it should be known that choosing a less prestigious med school for those reasons is a potential trade-off.
Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself.
 
We don't know everything about anything, so let's stop having opinions altogether, shall we? Prestige matters, at all levels. It's just human nature. For now, I'm sticking with occam's razor and say that the simplest explanation, that they are biased toward prestigious med schools, is the best answer.
It's not that you can't have an opinion, it's that pre-meds haven't gone to med school, let alone applied to residency. You're on the outside looking in. As for Occam's Razor, I think the simplest explanation is that people who apply to prestigious schools will apply to prestigious residencies.

I assume you're rejecting the simplest explanation for much more complicated ones.
So what's the simplest explanation? Most people pick their residencies based on location and specialty.
 
look, you guys are arguing for no reason.

as applicants to med school, we CANNOT just decide that we WILL go to a "top tier" school. it's just heinous to have that mentality going into the application process. Even VERY qualified applicants attend lower ranked schools not by choice, but simply because there aren't enough seats at harvard/hopkins/etc. to accommodate them all.

also, it is plain STUPID to turn down an acceptance during an application cycle because you think it'll be a negative when you apply for residency. Thus, the argument has no substance because going to a lower ranked med school is something that 99% of accepted applicants CANNOT change.

now, if an applicant does have a choice between, lets say, hopkins and case western, then that applicant can weigh how important the "prestige factor" will be when said applicant is applying for med school. But even then, this shouldn't be a huge impact compared to things like cost of attendance, location, etc.

the OP told a story of ONE neurosurgery resident who turned down acceptances for two application cycles until he/she got into UWash. I think that was incredibly STUPID of that person, because she is SUPER lucky that schools even accepted her the second and THIRD time around.

the bottom line is, DO NOT turn down an acceptance unless you have a very good reason.
 
look, you guys are arguing for no reason.

as applicants to med school, we CANNOT just decide that we WILL go to a "top tier" school. it's just heinous to have that mentality going into the application process. Even VERY qualified applicants attend lower ranked schools not by choice, but simply because there aren't enough seats at harvard/hopkins/etc. to accommodate them all.

also, it is plain STUPID to turn down an acceptance during an application cycle because you think it'll be a negative when you apply for residency. Thus, the argument has no substance because going to a lower ranked med school is something that 99% of accepted applicants CANNOT change.

now, if an applicant does have a choice between, lets say, hopkins and case western, then that applicant can weigh how important the "prestige factor" will be when said applicant is applying for med school. But even then, this shouldn't be a huge impact compared to things like cost of attendance, location, etc.

the OP told a story of ONE neurosurgery resident who turned down acceptances for two application cycles until he/she got into UWash. I think that was incredibly STUPID of that person, because she is SUPER lucky that schools even accepted her the second and THIRD time around.

the bottom line is, DO NOT turn down an acceptance unless you have a very good reason.

You seemed to miss the point of the argument. The argument isn't about turning down acceptances, it's about what to do when you have to make your final choice. Sure not everyone will have their pick of all the schools, but typically they will have some choice to make that often involves schools of differing pedigree. I'm not arguing for either side but let's at least be clear what's being argued.
 
I realize that that was the basis for your argument, but that doesn't change the fact that you use terms like "backhanded" and "consolation prize" in making it (Though if this is actually how more prestigious schools view primary care, that's how it's viewed I guess, it'd be pretty messed up though) ...

Um no, you totally missed the point of my post. I wasn't talking about the view of primary care, I was talking about primary care rankings. I'm not hostile toward primary care and enjoyed many of my primary care rotations, and can totally see why folks find some of them appealing. However if you base a ranking heavilly on the percentage of folks who go into primary care, rather than any sort of measure of quality, you are creating a useless ranking since primary care fields encompass all of the non-competitive specialties and a lot of folks default into noncompetitive things rather than choose them or have any sort of aptitude or training in them. In fact some of the programs ranked highly on the research rankings but low on the primary care ranking are probably as good at trining primary care folks. So unless you base your ranking on quality or are actually measuring something folks find valuable, your ranking has no business in a "best graduate school" edition of a magazine. Now research rankings measure NIH grants, which are a proxy for prestige because very often prestige follows groundbreaking research which in turn follows the funding. So you can argue that this at least measures "something", although the worth to med students is certainly subject to debate unless all you care about is a T shirt with a big name on it. But since primary care rankings often follow places whose graduates end up going into noncompetitive things, it's sort of a consolation prize they can brag about. That was my point. Nothing wrong with primary care itself, just the schools that say a lot of out grads go into primary care so that's an achievement. It isn't because it's noncompetitive. It could either mean folks are getting what they want or they aren't getting what they want. You can't know. And it certainly isn't attached to a measure of quality since the % drives the ranking.
 
...

Those primary care rankings look at other factors as well besides how many people go into primary care. It's overall strength in clinical training that they are trying to show. ..

No, what they purport to do isn't what the ranking measures. Because they include and heavilly weight things like percentage of folks going into primary care (ie noncompetitive fields), they undermine what you suggest. Speaking from someone who has now worked with a lot of people coming out of these schools I would suggest that the degree of clinical preparation certainly doesn't follow the primary care rankings. Many of the folks coming from the top research schools also have been very well trained in primary care. In fact, this is going to be person, not school specific because in med school you can always take electives that are going to make you better or worse prepared for the wards. Folks that avoid sub-Is and ICU electives are going to know less about patient management than those who took the minimum. Programs that are understaffed and in inner cities tend to allow med students to do more so they are going to be better prepared on the procedural (blood draw/IV/NG tube) aspects. But no, the number of folks going into, say, FP or peds doesn't mean the school is better at it because you don't really know if this is a measure of how good the program is in FP or peds or whether folks coming out of there simply have fewer choices. (Bearing in mind that I'm skeptical as to how much of a contribution med schools make to this individual journey anyway, but if you are ranking places you are pretending they do).
 
You seemed to miss the point of the argument. The argument isn't about turning down acceptances, it's about what to do when you have to make your final choice. Sure not everyone will have their pick of all the schools, but typically they will have some choice to make that often involves schools of differing pedigree. I'm not arguing for either side but let's at least be clear what's being argued.

I think the short answer is that you should go to the school you think you will be happiest at and achieve at. Because that will result in higher board scores and better evals and that in turn will get you the residency you want. Beyond that the school isn't really going to play a role. Now there are schools with better research opportunities if you are into that, and there are places with underfunded inner city hospitals where med students get to do more procedural stuff, and there are places which have affiliations with trauma centers, or don't have certain specialties (eg neurosurg or rad onc) and all these are valid reasons to choose one school over another. But beyond this I wouldn't put too much emphasis on how much a school is going to "help" you get a certain residency. You will get that residency based on the strength of your Step 1, your evals, contacts, and research. End of story. Anyone who tells you differently is probably someone who is trying to justify their own med school choice. Heck, most of the class will not be attending lectures with any regularity and will be studying on their own anyhow so it's hard to imagine the school itself adds a whole lot to the equation. This game isn't won on admissions. You are only at base camp on this climb. The mountain of getting through med school and into the residency of your dreams lies ahead. Nobody accepted to an allo med school has any real advantage over any other at this point, in terms of neurosurg or really any specialty. But by the time you are through there will be a lot to distinguish you from everyone else, and an objective yardstick, called Step 1, that PDs will rely heavily on. That's the game you are playing, although premeds like to speculate that they have already achieved on admissions even before the game starts. Sorry but it doesn't really work that way. Bob's 250 Step 1 beats your Harvard pedigree every time.
 
I think the short answer is that you should go to the school you think you will be happiest at and achieve at. Because that will result in higher board scores and better evals and that in turn will get you the residency you want. Beyond that the school isn't really going to play a role. Now there are schools with better research opportunities if you are into that, and there are places with underfunded inner city hospitals where med students get to do more procedural stuff, and there are places which have affiliations with trauma centers, or don't have certain specialties (eg neurosurg or rad onc) and all these are valid reasons to choose one school over another. But beyond this I wouldn't put too much emphasis on how much a school is going to "help" you get a certain residency. You will get that residency based on the strength of your Step 1, your evals, contacts, and research. End of story. Anyone who tells you differently is probably someone who is trying to justify their own med school choice. Heck, most of the class will not be attending lectures with any regularity and will be studying on their own anyhow so it's hard to imagine the school itself adds a whole lot to the equation. This game isn't won on admissions. You are only at base camp on this climb. The mountain of getting through med school and into the residency of your dreams lies ahead. Nobody accepted to an allo med school has any real advantage over any other at this point, in terms of neurosurg or really any specialty. But by the time you are through there will be a lot to distinguish you from everyone else, and an objective yardstick, called Step 1, that PDs will rely heavily on. That's the game you are playing, although premeds like to speculate that they have already achieved on admissions even before the game starts. Sorry but it doesn't really work that way. Bob's 250 Step 1 beats your Harvard pedigree every time.

I am just a lowly premed, but I agree with this.

For people trapped in the prestige race, med school name matters because it has to matter to justify their obsession with prestige.
 
I think the short answer is that you should go to the school you think you will be happiest at and achieve at. Because that will result in higher board scores and better evals and that in turn will get you the residency you want. Beyond that the school isn't really going to play a role. Now there are schools with better research opportunities if you are into that, and there are places with underfunded inner city hospitals where med students get to do more procedural stuff, and there are places which have affiliations with trauma centers, or don't have certain specialties (eg neurosurg or rad onc) and all these are valid reasons to choose one school over another. But beyond this I wouldn't put too much emphasis on how much a school is going to "help" you get a certain residency. You will get that residency based on the strength of your Step 1, your evals, contacts, and research. End of story. Anyone who tells you differently is probably someone who is trying to justify their own med school choice. Heck, most of the class will not be attending lectures with any regularity and will be studying on their own anyhow so it's hard to imagine the school itself adds a whole lot to the equation. This game isn't won on admissions. You are only at base camp on this climb. The mountain of getting through med school and into the residency of your dreams lies ahead. Nobody accepted to an allo med school has any real advantage over any other at this point, in terms of neurosurg or really any specialty. But by the time you are through there will be a lot to distinguish you from everyone else, and an objective yardstick, called Step 1, that PDs will rely heavily on. That's the game you are playing, although premeds like to speculate that they have already achieved on admissions even before the game starts. Sorry but it doesn't really work that way. Bob's 250 Step 1 beats your Harvard pedigree every time.

We've all been in agreement that board scores, clerkship grades, AOA are things that are more important in residency selection than med school pedigree. However, you're being disingenuous when you say that nobody accepted to an allo med school has any advantage over the other at this point.

It's difficult to compare match lists, but there's some value in doing so. Compare Harvard's match list to your state school's. You'll notice that Harvard's list largely consists of high quality matches, many of which would be first choices for many people. Whether they were their first choice or not is irrelevant because of how difficult it is to match into these programs to begin with. Now when looking at these lists, it's important to remember that half of these students fall in the lower half of the bell curve for their class. I have no idea what the average board scores at Harvard are, but it's probably in the 230s, meaning half of the class falls below that. So there are plenty of students who are getting step scores below 230, who have not honored their rotations but are still matching very well. No matter what specialty, if you're aiming for a high quality residency program, stats like that would be a death sentence.

Also keep in mind that it's easy for a pre-med to say that it doesn't matter what school they go to because they will do well no matter where they end up. While it's great to have that attitude, it's much more difficult to succeed in med school than undergrad because grades are not simply work-dependent like undergrad was. Third year rotation grades have subjective components to them. How you do in your rotations may affect your selection into AOA.
 
We've all been in agreement that board scores, clerkship grades, AOA are things that are more important in residency selection than med school pedigree. However, you're being disingenuous when you say that nobody accepted to an allo med school has any advantage over the other at this point.

This apparent conflict is resolved rather simply. If you wish to become, say, a cardiothoracic surgeon, you can do that from any medical school in the country. If you wish to become, say, the youngest chair of cardiothoracic surgery on the Eastern seaboard, you're probably going to need a pedigree.

The value of prestige all comes down to the individual's goals.

jbz24 said:
It's difficult to compare match lists, but there's some value in doing so. Compare Harvard's match list to your state school's. You'll notice that Harvard's list largely consists of high quality matches,

Again, confounded by selection bias.
 
We've all been in agreement that board scores, clerkship grades, AOA are things that are more important in residency selection than med school pedigree. However, you're being disingenuous when you say that nobody accepted to an allo med school has any advantage over the other at this point.

It's difficult to compare match lists, but there's some value in doing so. Compare Harvard's match list to your state school's. You'll notice that Harvard's list largely consists of high quality matches, many of which would be first choices for many people. Whether they were their first choice or not is irrelevant because of how difficult it is to match into these programs to begin with. Now when looking at these lists, it's important to remember that half of these students fall in the lower half of the bell curve for their class. I have no idea what the average board scores at Harvard are, but it's probably in the 230s, meaning half of the class falls below that. So there are plenty of students who are getting step scores below 230, who have not honored their rotations but are still matching very well. No matter what specialty, if you're aiming for a high quality residency program, stats like that would be a death sentence.

Also keep in mind that it's easy for a pre-med to say that it doesn't matter what school they go to because they will do well no matter where they end up. While it's great to have that attitude, it's much more difficult to succeed in med school than undergrad because grades are not simply work-dependent like undergrad was. Third year rotation grades have subjective components to them. How you do in your rotations may affect your selection into AOA.

Not only is that purely speculation, but I bet it's not even close to that. Mid-230 average?!?!
 
I think the short answer is that you should go to the school you think you will be happiest at and achieve at. Because that will result in higher board scores and better evals and that in turn will get you the residency you want. Beyond that the school isn't really going to play a role. Now there are schools with better research opportunities if you are into that, and there are places with underfunded inner city hospitals where med students get to do more procedural stuff, and there are places which have affiliations with trauma centers, or don't have certain specialties (eg neurosurg or rad onc) and all these are valid reasons to choose one school over another. But beyond this I wouldn't put too much emphasis on how much a school is going to "help" you get a certain residency. You will get that residency based on the strength of your Step 1, your evals, contacts, and research. End of story. Anyone who tells you differently is probably someone who is trying to justify their own med school choice. Heck, most of the class will not be attending lectures with any regularity and will be studying on their own anyhow so it's hard to imagine the school itself adds a whole lot to the equation. This game isn't won on admissions. You are only at base camp on this climb. The mountain of getting through med school and into the residency of your dreams lies ahead. Nobody accepted to an allo med school has any real advantage over any other at this point, in terms of neurosurg or really any specialty. But by the time you are through there will be a lot to distinguish you from everyone else, and an objective yardstick, called Step 1, that PDs will rely heavily on. That's the game you are playing, although premeds like to speculate that they have already achieved on admissions even before the game starts. Sorry but it doesn't really work that way. Bob's 250 Step 1 beats your Harvard pedigree every time.

Although I don't agree with the entire post, the bolded part is really key. Regardless of what school you attend, this game is just beginning.
 
This apparent conflict is resolved rather simply. If you wish to become, say, a cardiothoracic surgeon, you can do that from any medical school in the country. If you wish to become, say, the youngest chair of cardiothoracic surgery on the Eastern seaboard, you're probably going to need a pedigree.

While you're exaggerating, we're in full agreement. Tone that down to, say, a top residency program and I believe you're correct.

Again, confounded by selection bias.

The biggest problem in comparing lists is selection bias, but I refuse to believe it's only selection bias. My school cannot boast the matches that Harvard's school does, and I know many of my classmates are aiming for the top programs that Harvard's students are.
 
Not only is that purely speculation, but I bet it's not even close to that. Mid-230 average?!?!

I'm not in the mood to look it up, but I guarantee I'm not far off.
 
What exactly is being argued here? These are the simple facts:
1. Your medical school may play a role in residency selection. It depends upon the PD to what extent
2. Being a strong candidate outweighs which school you come from
3. For certain programs, you have to have both

The above applies to all competitive specialties.

Are we all in agreement here? Are there other issues on the table?

Damn Sauce, are we in agreement again here? This is like what ... the second time in a week we agree on something similar? You know we gotta stop doing this cause it's not as fun arguing with you. Seems like people are just restating arguments over and over again. Do they not read previous posts?
 
...
It's difficult to compare match lists, but there's some value in doing so. ...

No there isn't. I've written pretty extensively on this very topic on these boards and can give you a lot of reasons why there is really no value for premeds to look at match lists. I'll revamp a few here, but there are even others in my prior threads.

First, you have no idea what a good match is. There are better and worse places in every specialty, and they don't align to the rankings of med schools. No place is good in all fields, and in fact many are quite malignant in several. So you can't go by program or specialty name. A premed might look at a list and say "this dude matched into ortho at XYZ" and think that's a good match because XYZ is a top ranked med school. But in fact XYZ might be the most malignant program in the country and at the botton of this dude's ranking list, so not really an appealing match at all. How can you know as a premed? You can't. This is the kind of stuff you only find out once you are in med school, choose a specialty, choose a mentor in the field, and find out the word of mouth buzz about the various programs. They aren't ranked anywhere, it's a word of mouth thing, largely determined by the personnel. Good vs malignant matters -- your life will be very bad if you choose someplace awful and have to be there for 3-7 years, even if the name sounds impressive. So no, you can't look at a match list and know anything until you get further down the road.
Next, a match is only good if people get what they wanted. A list that looks unimpressive but everyone got their first choice is better than one where everybody fell down to their 5th choice. Doesn't matter if the latter looks more impressive to you as a premed, it's a bad match. People will be crying on match day.

Bear in mind that the match doesn't tell you what people could get, only what they chose. There are a million factors that go into that choice, and people don't generally choose the most competitive thing they can get. The top person in the class is just as likely to choose IM or surgery as they are to choose plastics or derm. You have to realize that you are choosing what you are going to be doing for the next 40 years of your life. It's not something you do because it's prestigious, like choosing a school might be -- you actually have to like it. Many top students enjoy things like psych or peds or surgical procedures and thus will choose to go down these roads. For them getting their choice in these fields is a better match than getting derm or rads. Also bear in mind that folks coming into residency are 4 years older than when they applied to med school. Many will have spouses, fiancees, families, or otherwise have put down roots. So many will make choices that will work best along with the non-academic aspects of their lives -- they may not choose the best program in a specialty because it's not where their spouse has a job, etc.

Truth is, the match list only tells you something about that particular class and their goals, if they got them, not about how the school does. You are basically trying to extrapolate things but have no basis for doing so. It's basically like watching the last 5 minutes of a movie with the sound off and trying to extapolate what happened in the prior two hours. You will be wrong most of the time. Waste of time in my opinion. Don't bother with this. As a premed folks probably will still try to fool themselves that there is some information to be obtained, but I assert that without the context, the raw data will run you astray 99.99% of the time. Generally you will make better decisions with no data than misconstrued data.
 
Damn Sauce, are we in agreement again here? This is like what ... the second time in a week we agree on something similar? You know we gotta stop doing this cause it's not as fun arguing with you. Seems like people are just restating arguments over and over again. Do they not read previous posts?

I know. We gotta stop meeting like this. LOL.
 
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