Top tier vs. lower tier colleges/universities

[Slide]

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Hey,
First of all, I'm a new forum suscriber here, so bear with me. I'm a jr. pre-med at a "prestigious" (Top 10 in USNews) university that I will keep disclosed unless specifically asked.

That brings me to my question. Does it really pay to be at a top tier university as a pre-med compared to somewhere else, like a lesser-known state university? The reason I bring this question up is that I've read a few websites, and several of the people writing advice about the med school process seem to agree that, in the end, your GPA, not the school you went to, matters more. Currently, my GPA is a 3.55 (3.57 science GPA, including engineering science classes), and I'm a typical science major (Chemistry). I'm also involved in few ECs, but the few I do require tons of investment (president of a strong cultural club, vp of a fraternity). Even though I do enjoy a good social life, I'm still working my ass off at this school just to maintain my GPA. Raising my GPA will require something short of a miracle, because I'm competing against students that are both brilliant and hardworking.

What irks me somewhat is that I see my peers from high school at state schools working half the time I do and making 3.8s easily. I know these guys did not suddenly become smart or hardworking, because when we talk about the topics gone over in class, they've seem to never have heard several of the subjects (one of my friends had never heard of a few fundamental things, like radial distribution graphs and quantum mechanics in Gen Chem, or C13 NMR in Orgo). This brings me to the heart of my question/rant: Does the school you attend for undergraduate school matter, or is GPA the sole cut off line? This question just bothers me because if a person has a better chance to get into med school while doing less than the work I have to do, then, really, what's the point for premeds to apply to prestigious universities. Sorry if I sound a bit condenscending, or egotistical, which is not the attitude I'm trying to convey in this thread.

 

[slickb12]

Hey,
First of all, I'm a new forum suscriber here, so bear with me. I'm a jr. pre-med at a "prestigious" (Top 10 in USNews) university that I will keep disclosed unless specifically asked.

That brings me to my question. Does it really pay to be at a top tier university as a pre-med compared to somewhere else, like a lesser-known state university? The reason I bring this question up is that I've read a few websites, and several of the people writing advice about the med school process seem to agree that, in the end, your GPA, not the school you went to, matters more. Currently, my GPA is a 3.55 (3.57 science GPA, including engineering science classes), and I'm a typical science major (Chemistry). I'm also involved in few ECs, but the few I do require tons of investment (president of a strong cultural club, vp of a fraternity). Even though I do enjoy a good social life, I'm still working my ass off at this school just to maintain my GPA. Raising my GPA will require something short of a miracle, because I'm competing against students that are both brilliant and hardworking.

What irks me somewhat is that I see my peers from high school at state schools working half the time I do and making 3.8s easily. I know these guys did not suddenly become smart or hardworking, because when we talk about the topics gone over in class, they've seem to never have heard several of the subjects (one of my friends had never heard of a few fundamental things, like radial distribution graphs and quantum mechanics in Gen Chem, or C13 NMR in Orgo). This brings me to the heart of my question/rant: Does the school you attend for undergraduate school matter, or is GPA the sole cut off line? This question just bothers me because if a person has a better chance to get into med school while doing less than the work I have to do, then, really, what's the point for premeds to apply to prestigious universities. Sorry if I sound a bit condenscending, or egotistical, which is not the attitude I'm trying to convey in this thread.

Where do you attend undergraduate school?

 

[Slide]

If you need to know, I go to Penn. I usually prefer to keep discreet about it though because I get adverse reactions from others in the past.

 

[DeadorAlive]

Yes, the "prestige" factor matters somewhat; No, it will not attach a rocket to your GPA nor trump other students that got better scores at other schools.

My advice? Just focus on you. While getting in to med school seems like a competitive rat race, what are you going to do? Transfer to your state school (I'm assuming that, as VP of your frat/pres of an org you're not a youngster)? It is competitive, but you're mostly competing against yourself to get the best grades you can, the best MCAT you can.

In the meantime, try to enjoy Penn for the non-tangible opportunities it offers; there is much more to life, and college, than being pre-med.

 

[slickb12]

If you need to know, I go to Penn. I usually prefer to keep discreet about it though because I get adverse reactions from others in the past.

What's the difference between saying Penn and a "top 10 university"? If you would have said MIT, would people's reaction have differed?

Anywho, my take: Med schools take into account the degree of difficulty and quality of undergraduate programs. They will outright tell you this. However, a 3.8 or 3.9 from a solid state school will be viewed favorably when comapared to your GPA. While your GPA certainly isn't bad, it's not incredible.Your GPA is solid, but I wouldn't get comfortable... always best to stride for better.

Even better: best not to worry now. You're at Penn. Rock your classes, smoke the MCAT, and I think being involved heavily is a great way to go about EC's. Meaningful experiences>many experiences. More importantly, have a good time.

 

[Chrissy]

i completely agree with the last post. There's no documented or tangible advantage (officially) to going to Penn.....i wish there was cuz i went there too!.....your GPA is fine keep it up and you wont have a problem. if you were struggling there my advice may be different but your 3.5 is not gonna get trumped by many, ivy or not.

 

[little_late_MD]

Hey,
First of all, I'm a new forum suscriber here, so bear with me. I'm a jr. pre-med at a "prestigious" (Top 10 in USNews) university that I will keep disclosed unless specifically asked.

That brings me to my question. Does it really pay to be at a top tier university as a pre-med compared to somewhere else, like a lesser-known state university? The reason I bring this question up is that I've read a few websites, and several of the people writing advice about the med school process seem to agree that, in the end, your GPA, not the school you went to, matters more. Currently, my GPA is a 3.55 (3.57 science GPA, including engineering science classes), and I'm a typical science major (Chemistry). I'm also involved in few ECs, but the few I do require tons of investment (president of a strong cultural club, vp of a fraternity). Even though I do enjoy a good social life, I'm still working my ass off at this school just to maintain my GPA. Raising my GPA will require something short of a miracle, because I'm competing against students that are both brilliant and hardworking.

What irks me somewhat is that I see my peers from high school at state schools working half the time I do and making 3.8s easily. I know these guys did not suddenly become smart or hardworking, because when we talk about the topics gone over in class, they've seem to never have heard several of the subjects (one of my friends had never heard of a few fundamental things, like radial distribution graphs and quantum mechanics in Gen Chem, or C13 NMR in Orgo). This brings me to the heart of my question/rant: Does the school you attend for undergraduate school matter, or is GPA the sole cut off line? This question just bothers me because if a person has a better chance to get into med school while doing less than the work I have to do, then, really, what's the point for premeds to apply to prestigious universities. Sorry if I sound a bit condenscending, or egotistical, which is not the attitude I'm trying to convey in this thread.

As someone who also attended a "prestigious" private school, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that it makes little sense to pay for private school if you intend on going to grad school. I had to work my butt off with full-time jobs to cover what scholarship didn't, and so missed out on a lot in my later years. I began a job in one of the graduate schools on campus my senior year, only to be told on more than one occassion by more than one adcom member that while the undergrad institution is a small bonus, the meat of the application is what matters. In other words, it's your grades, test scores, recommendations, research, etc that matter, not the name on your diploma. If you and another applicant are virtually identical, then your alma mater might come in and bear some weight, but otherwise I wouldn't bank on it. If I had to do it all over again, I would go to a state school (which I had a full-ride to) in a heartbeat.

However, I think you are highly mistaken thinking that just because a school isn't ranked as high as yours that the classes are any easier. I have taken summer courses at more than one state university, and often times the material there was just as, if not more difficult than at my school. In the hard sciences the curriculum is generally the same. Think about it, how many different ways can you teach differential calculus or the biology of a cell. Where higher ranked schools excel are in research opportunities, lab equipment, published professors and the like. However, this is by no means an absolute. I have been in the labs of several state schools, and they show no deficit in equipment. Maybe your friends do not know certain things that you do, but I think that is more a reflection on your friends than the school they attend. If they are telling you they are pulling a 3.8 cum, I would hold that suspect. Take a second to pull your "prestigious", ivy-league, nose out of the air. Do you really think that adcoms would admit a student from a school that does not have rigorous academic standards? I know that society, your high school advisor, and your parents have brainwashed you into believing that you must have a top-ranked diploma to get by in this world. However, unless you're going into investment banking, corporate finance, or corporate law that just isn't the case in the real world.

Also, your ECs are worthless. While they show you are a leader, they do not show that you have a passion for science, medicine, or anything other than socializing. Spend your time in a way that shows you are committed to your chosen profession.

 

[stifler]

As someone who also attended a "prestigious" private school, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that it makes little sense to pay for private school if you intend on going to grad school. I had to work my butt off with full-time jobs to cover what scholarship didn't, and so missed out on a lot in my later years. I began a job in one of the graduate schools on campus my senior year, only to be told on more than one occassion by more than one adcom member that while the undergrad institution is a small bonus, the meat of the application is what matters. In other words, it's your grades, test scores, recommendations, research, etc that matter, not the name on your diploma. If you and another applicant are virtually identical, then your alma mater might come in and bear some weight, but otherwise I wouldn't bank on it. If I had to do it all over again, I would go to a state school (which I had a full-ride to) in a heartbeat.

However, I think you are highly mistaken thinking that just because a school isn't ranked as high as yours that the classes are any easier. I have taken summer courses at more than one state university, and often times the material there was just as, if not more difficult than at my school. In the hard sciences the curriculum is generally the same. Think about it, how many different ways can you teach differential calculus or the biology of a cell. Where higher ranked schools excel are in research opportunities, lab equipment, published professors and the like. However, this is by no means an absolute. I have been in the labs of several state schools, and they show no deficit in equipment. Maybe your friends do not know certain things that you do, but I think that is more a reflection on your friends than the school they attend. If they are telling you they are pulling a 3.8 cum, I would hold that suspect. Take a second to pull your "prestigious", ivy-league, nose out of the air. Do you really think that adcoms would admit a student from a school that does not have rigorous academic standards? I know that society, your high school advisor, and your parents have brainwashed you into believing that you must have a top-ranked diploma to get by in this world. However, unless you're going into investment banking, corporate finance, or corporate law that just isn't the case in the real world.

Also, your ECs are worthless. While they show you are a leader, they do not show that you have a passion for science, medicine, or anything other than socializing. Spend your time in a way that shows you are committed to your chosen profession.

i agree with what that guy said except he should have said it less harshly. however your ecs arent worthless. i attend a top 10 school as well and i dont like how things are very difficult and how it seems unfair. however i cant change that nor can you unless you transfer. but its good to rant. i rant about this a lot too. heh.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

First I would say that some of the crap you're receiving in this thread is totally unwarranted. There may be someone here who needs to "pull their ivy-league nose out of the air," but it's not you.

I would ask you if this is already a moot point. It sounds like you've already done your hardest science pre-reqs, so I don't see what the advantage would be in switching to an "easier" program. Chem is hell to get good grades in for most people, the rest of your classes shouldn't be nearly as bad. If you're early in your undergrad studies it may be worth transferring, but I'm assuming from your post you already have a few credit hours.

 

[Centinel]

One way of evaluating how much the UPenn name matters is to try to find empirical data.

There's not too much data to work with, so I will work with the information available from Vanderbilt. Now, in order to evaluate how 'valued' UPenn is relative to say, Harvard and Yale, I will perform the following analysis:
Value(School) = 1000 * [# Matriculated Students(School)] / [# Undergraduates(School)].

From this methodology, it's obvious I'm making various assumptions.
1) I assume all Ivies have equal % of students applying to Vanderbilt (not an unreasonable a priori assumption).
2) I assume that all Ivies will send an equal % of accepted students to matriculate at a given school (just as reasonable, or unreasonable, as assumption #1).
3) The *1000 factor is just to make the numbers prettier to look at and don't add any bias.

So, when we run the data for Harvard, Yale, and Penn, we see:
Value(Harvard) = 1000*[34]/[6,650] = 5.1
Value(Yale) = 1000*[21]/[5,350] = 3.9
Value(Penn) = 1000*[7]/[10,047] = 0.7

So, within the given framework, Penn has 14% of the 'weight' of Harvard and 18% of the 'weight' of Yale. Now let's look at a state school:
Value(Virginia) = 1000*[17]/[13,000] = 1.3

----------------------

Now before we get into a huge debate about the validity of my method or about state schools vs. Ivies or about top-tier Ivies vs. TTT Ivies, let me just make a final statement:
The *purpose* of my evaluations here is to show that it is ridiculous to try to estimate your odds of getting into medical school based on where you go to school. It's an utter waste of time unless you are planning to transfer. The only sensical thing to do is NOT to develop systems of comparison, but instead to maximize your efforts at whatever school you're at.

 

[Chrissy]

damn, someone got up on the bitter side of the bed.

"As someone who also attended a "prestigious" private school, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that it makes little sense to pay for private school if you intend on going to grad school."

There are an infinite number of reasons that a prestigious private school may be more appealing. Thats simple fact....the reputation DOES matter whether or you like it or not (agreeably not much for grad school though), they have significantly larger endowments which effects numerous things, the faculty are the best in their fields, and most importantly....your peers are the brightest in the country.

"I had to work my butt off with full-time jobs to cover what scholarship didn't, and so missed out on a lot in my later years. "

Many many many many people do this. That sentence has NOTHING to do with why or why not you should attend a private school. also fyi, princeton has blind admissions....no student who is accepted will not be able to attend because of financial reasons...so if you're too smart to not be bitter and make false generalizations about every college in the country then apply there. you would have that princeton degree, could as you call it..."hold your nose in the air" and could have enjoyed college without working.

"I began a job in one of the graduate schools on campus my senior year, only to be told on more than one occassion by more than one adcom member that while the undergrad institution is a small bonus, the meat of the application is what matters. In other words, it's your grades, test scores, recommendations, research, etc that matter, not the name on your diploma."

No one disagrees. I think you'd be surprised though how many applicants are considered comparable....take a look at what undergraduate schools the kids at top med schools went...they overwhelmingly represent top 10 colleges.

"If you and another applicant are virtually identical, then your alma mater might come in and bear some weight, but otherwise I wouldn't bank on it. If I had to do it all over again, I would go to a state school (which I had a full-ride to) in a heartbeat."

Although terrible and misguided, you have every right to do what you want and regret everything you've ever done. The OP didn't even touch on this subject.

"However, I think you are highly mistaken thinking that just because a school isn't ranked as high as yours that the classes are any easier. I have taken summer courses at more than one state university, and often times the material there was just as, if not more difficult than at my school. In the hard sciences the curriculum is generally the same. Think about it, how many different ways can you teach differential calculus or the biology of a cell. Where higher ranked schools excel are in research opportunities, lab equipment, published professors and the like. However, this is by no means an absolute. I have been in the labs of several state schools, and they show no deficit in equipment. Maybe your friends do not know certain things that you do, but I think that is more a reflection on your friends than the school they attend."

Some schools are harder than others. Fact. NO ONE KNOWS WHICH SCHOOLS ARE HARDER THAN OTHERS.

"If they are telling you they are pulling a 3.8 cum, I would hold that suspect."

ummmmmmm what?

" Take a second to pull your "prestigious", ivy-league, nose out of the air. Do you really think that adcoms would admit a student from a school that does not have rigorous academic standards? "

Relative. that's why the MCAT exists.

"I know that society, your high school advisor, and your parents have brainwashed you into believing that you must have a top-ranked diploma to get by in this world. However, unless you're going into investment banking, corporate finance, or corporate law that just isn't the case in the real world."

remember that now....unless you associate with other people, care about your future, and buy into this absurd concept of "society" and standards, your penn degree means nothing.

just to reiterate, colleges that the whole world regard as prestigious and competitive are only for those who live in the greater new york area and are headed to wall st.

"Also, your ECs are worthless. While they show you are a leader, they do not show that you have a passion for science, medicine, or anything other than socializing."

OP: this person's opinion and intelligence are worthless. Infinitely more important than your grades, MCAT, or EC's will be the simple fact that most of us couldn't become this bitter if we tried...so we all got one up on this post... If only there was a fourth MCAT section that involved people skills, tact, and humility.....OP if you dont get into med school I have an open position at the hedge fund my family owns.

 

[Centinel]

OP if you dont get into med school I have an open position at the hedge fund my family owns.

And the post was going so well right until here.

 

[little_late_MD]

First I would say that some of the crap you're receiving in this thread is totally unwarranted. There may be someone here who needs to "pull their ivy-league nose out of the air," but it's not you.

Whoa whoa whoa. Easy there, killer. The OP asked a question, and I answered it. No, I'm not as cuddly as many of the other members here, but I answered it as honestly and candidly as I could. Anything else would have been doing them a disservice.

However, I do have an issue with ivy-league, top-tier, elite types who constantly feel the need to rank themselves against others, and then complain about their choice of school when it seems not to work out in their favor. It was their choice to attend whatever school they are in. In life any choice has benefits and costs. Going to a top-tier school has certain benefits, especially in the job market. However, to thumb your nose down at the millions of students who have studied at a state-run university is at best arrogant. I meant no ill-will, but this is an opinion forum, and that is my opinion.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

Whoa whoa whoa. Easy there, killer. The OP asked a question, and I answered it. No, I'm not as cuddly as many of the other members here, but I answered it as honestly and candidly as I could. Anything else would have been doing them a disservice.

However, I do have an issue with ivy-league, top-tier, elite types who constantly feel the need to rank themselves against others, and then complain about their choice of school when it seems not to work out in their favor. It was their choice to attend whatever school they are in. In life any choice has benefits and costs. Going to a top-tier school has certain benefits, especially in the job market. However, to thumb your nose down at the millions of students who have studied at a state-run university is at best arrogant. I meant no ill-will, but this is an opinion forum, and that is my opinion.

You ascribed personality traits to the OP that simply weren't present in the post. I don't know how you get off implying someone is a blue-blood snob for no reason at all, and then turn around and act like you were being objective and "just answering a question."

 

[slickb12]

Whoa whoa whoa. Easy there, killer. The OP asked a question, and I answered it. No, I'm not as cuddly as many of the other members here, but I answered it as honestly and candidly as I could. Anything else would have been doing them a disservice.

However, I do have an issue with ivy-league, top-tier, elite types who constantly feel the need to rank themselves against others, and then complain about their choice of school when it seems not to work out in their favor. It was their choice to attend whatever school they are in. In life any choice has benefits and costs. Going to a top-tier school has certain benefits, especially in the job market. However, to thumb your nose down at the millions of students who have studied at a state-run university is at best arrogant. I meant no ill-will, but this is an opinion forum, and that is my opinion.

I agree with the first part of your second paragraph. But come on... you really don't see a problem with the phrasing in your first post? Would it have been possible to say what you wanted to say in a more tactful manner?

I would ask that you not pretend like your rude statements should fall under the guise of candor--that insults the intelligence of every person who reads your post.

 

[Chrissy]

that's completely respectable I don't disagree with what you just said. With all due respect though, my response to you (as I meant it) was a defense of the statements you made....If you don't mind me saying I thought most of what you wrote was self-righteous and bitter rather than an objective opinion. I mean no harm either but please dont assume that just because someone finds an Ivy difficult they are crying like babies and have their nose in the air. Everybody's situation is different. There's plenty of people at state schools and community colleges that complain about the difficulty and theres plenty of kids I knew at Penn who got a 4.0 no problem. It just doesn't help the OP to attack her with what you think are the facts about her/his situation.

the truth is most people have a perfectly reasonable and mostly accurate opinion about this debate. get good grades anywhere you will be fine. get good grades at a top school you'll be golden. it might not be fair but it's just the way it is.

Whoa whoa whoa. Easy there, killer. The OP asked a question, and I answered it. No, I'm not as cuddly as many of the other members here, but I answered it as honestly and candidly as I could. Anything else would have been doing them a disservice.

However, I do have an issue with ivy-league, top-tier, elite types who constantly feel the need to rank themselves against others, and then complain about their choice of school when it seems not to work out in their favor. It was their choice to attend whatever school they are in. In life any choice has benefits and costs. Going to a top-tier school has certain benefits, especially in the job market. However, to thumb your nose down at the millions of students who have studied at a state-run university is at best arrogant. I meant no ill-will, but this is an opinion forum, and that is my opinion.

 

[little_late_MD]

damn, someone got up on the bitter side of the bed...

Wow. Just wow. All that verbiage on little old me. I'm impressed. I hate to burst your bubble and ruin your hypothesis, but............................................. I'm not bitter.

I truly do value my undergraduate education. I donate money to the alumni fund, watch all the football games that happen to be on TV, etc. etc. etc. I had a great time there, and it was a very special time in my life. However, as a matter of pure economics, knowing what I know now I would have chosen to go to a state school. Is that bitter? I don't know, but I don't think so.

I'll say it again, when people ask these types of questions, it really gets my hackles up. I responded in kind. No offense to the OP, but he asked a question and recieved an answer. My opinion is no more valid, or less valid, than yours. For you to dismiss me as a person, and form an opinon about my psyche and demeanor based on one post is laughable.

I know that when people have different opinions than us it awakens some sort of visceral response mechanism. However, our rational nature as human beings is supposed to kick in. Guess that system malfunctions sometimes.




BTW, I stand by my statement that his ECs will earn him very few if any points on any medical school application. Read the profiles of accepted students at medical schools. How many of them only read: fraternity president, Diversity Club founder(I know that wasn't what it was, but I can't see the origianal post)?

 

[silas2642]

Well, I think that you should have gone to a University that fits you and that you'll do well in. I don't know about UPenn, but I do know that a lot of ivys have problems with grade inflation. Every school is different, but I do know that if you apply with a low gpa and a low mcat score, regardless of what school you went to, you may as well put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye. Or there's always nursing school.

 

[little_late_MD]

You ascribed personality traits to the OP that simply weren't present in the post. I don't know how you get off implying someone is a blue-blood snob for no reason at all, and then turn around and act like you were being objective and "just answering a question."

1. Never once called them blue-blooded or a snob. Never once ascribe a personality trait to the OP. Perhaps those are traits you associate with top-tier schools?

2. I never implied I was being objective. I think that my post probably implied just about the diametric opposite.

Dr GeddyLee, why are you so angry?

 

[Chrissy]

I'm glad everyone but you seems to be in agreement. Yes, you CAN make a judgment about someone by one post. I never made a judgment about your psyche or your demeanor...what i DID do was tell you your advice (or utter lack there of) was out of line, yes bitter, and inaccurate.

you did not answer the Op's question. what you DID do was attack him/her with reasons why his/her questions and concerns are invalid based on the fact that he goes to a certain type of school. That, is laughable.

also here's a little free advice for your arsenal of wisdom....i was a fraternity secretary at penn and a varsity athlete and it came up in every interview.....in 4 interviews it was a huuuuge topic of converstion....

OP YOULL BE FINE!!!!!

Wow. Just wow. All that verbiage on little old me. I'm impressed. I hate to burst your bubble and ruin your hypothesis, but............................................. I'm not bitter.

I truly do value my undergraduate education. I donate money to the alumni fund, watch all the football games that happen to be on TV, etc. etc. etc. I had a great time there, and it was a very special time in my life. However, as a matter of pure economics, knowing what I know now I would have chosen to go to a state school. Is that bitter? I don't know, but I don't think so.

I'll say it again, when people ask these types of questions, it really gets my hackles up. I responded in kind. No offense to the OP, but he asked a question and recieved an answer. My opinion is no more valid, or less valid, than yours. For you to dismiss me as a person, and form an opinon about my psyche and demeanor based on one post is laughable.

I know that when people have different opinions than us it awakens some sort of visceral response mechanism. However, our rational nature as human beings is supposed to kick in. Guess that system malfunctions sometimes.




BTW, I stand by my statement that his ECs will earn him very few if any points on any medical school application. Read the profiles of accepted students at medical schools. How many of them only read: fraternity president, Diversity Club founder(I know that wasn't what it was, but I can't see the origianal post)?

 

[little_late_MD]

I never made a judgment about your psyche or your demeanor

so if you're too smart to not be bitter

you = bitter. I see, it was about my opinion. 😕

...what i DID do was tell you your advice (or utter lack there of) was out of line, yes bitter, and inaccurate.

ummm...opinions can be inacurate?

you did not answer the Op's question. what you DID do was attack him/her with reasons why his/her questions and concerns are invalid based on the fact that he goes to a certain type of school. That, is laughable.

If I had to do it all over again, I would go to a state school (which I had a full-ride to) in a heartbeat.

hmmmm....

also here's a little free advice for your arsenal of wisdom....i was a fraternity secretary at penn and a varsity athlete and it came up in every interview.....in 4 interviews it was a huuuuge topic of converstion....

I don't recall saying that they wouldn't talk about it in your interview. I do recall implying that it wouldn't really do much one way or the other. However, now I see why you are so upset. I'm sorry if I offended you and your ECs. Being a varsity athlete really should get you into med school.

OP YOULL BE FINE!!!!!

 

[amnesia]

Princeton is an Ivy League that is lowering grade inflation, however, it is harming the student body it seems. The Crimson had an article about it.
I submitted some undergraduate apps. >_>

After a pretty tough highschool career, going to an Ivy League should help in the med school process. After all, why wouldn't it?

 

[amnesia]

Chrissy, Did you get into a good med school after leaving Penn?

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

1. Never once called them blue-blooded or a snob. Never once ascribe a personality trait to the OP.

Take a second to pull your "prestigious", ivy-league, nose out of the air.

Be more honest with yourself and others; no one here is buying your BS excuses for being rude.

Perhaps those are traits you associate with top-tier schools?

Not at all. Considering I'm coming to an ivy-leager's defense on this subject, your reasoning in even asking that is highly specious.

2. I never implied I was being objective. I think that my post probably implied just about the diametric opposite.

I guess objective is not the right word. Condescending and extremely presumptive are more fitting.

Dr GeddyLee, why are you so angry?

Hey, I was just trying to let the guy know he should ignore your insults and not take them personally because nothing in his post warranted that type of attack.

 

[Slide]

Wow, I leave for one hour and people are already replying! 🙂

Thanks for replying to my question! The main reason for me to pose the question is because even though I've wanted to go to med school for a while, I've only heard perspectives from my school. My friends at home rub in the fact that they have more free time than I do, but to me, that's not a big deal. Even though I may sound like I'm ranting a lot, there are other, larger reasons that have made me pondered about transferring and the med school process: mainly the fact that my family is not a very well-to-do one as some people often think, and that my father, the only worker in the family, is retiring in a few years due to his age. I went to Penn because I wanted to make my friends, teachers, and family proud and to learn in a rigorous, yet exciting environment (I went to school in Mississippi, and no offense to others living in there, but I did not want to go to a state school there, especially when my brother showed me the kinds of stuff he and his friends did).

As for the other threads about me not at first revealing the college I attend or showing it around, nowadays I try to keep hidden about me going to an Ivy because I get a wide variety of reactions from it in real life (as like one in this thread). As far as my Penn experience, it had its ups and downs, but I still enjoy it because I've been able to experience urban living, multilcuturual settings, educational opportunities, and other things I couldn't have experienced at Mississippi State. For that, I'm not going to turn this thread into an argument of the school I picked, because that was not my intention, so I won't attempt to defend/justify my decisions for going to the college of my choice.

I'm posing these questions because this is perhaps the most important year of college. I take the MCATs this year, and I finish my last prereq (biology) this year. Also, this is the last year for me to undertake any research before I become a senior, and I'm sure by then, it's too little, too late. On that topic, does it matter what you research, or can it just be related to your major? Right now I'm highly interested in chemistry/biochemistry research, and I'm considering doing some in the spring semester as one of my credits.

EDIT: Oh yeah, as for the thing about grade inflation, Princeton got hurt; only 35% of their class can get A's. For Penn, the faculty is considering it, but it only affects those in non-science, non-Wharton, and non-Engineering majors. The curves in Wharton and Engineering are rough (sometimes even rougher than the 35% cutoff), and the science curves usually come out to be that anyway. Basically, grade inflation does not affect premeds as much as people may think, unless the premeds are not one of the majors above and have taken tons of classes outside of pre-reqs. Just a FYI.

 

[Wertt]

I think schools would probably judge your performance and difficulty by looking at the averages in the classes you took, from your transcript.
Assuming transcripts from other schools put the class avg. on as they do from U. Toronto...
Do you think American schools know the relative "awesomeness" of Canadian schools as well?

 

[Chris127]

*passes popcorn*

 

[little_late_MD]

Be more honest with yourself and others; no one here is buying your BS excuses for being rude.

I really thought that I was done with this, but I just couldn't let this slide.

The OP used the word "prestigious." That is why it is in quotes.
He said he went to Penn, which is for all intents and purposes Ivy-League.

Nowhere, I repeat nowhere did I ascribe them any trait which did not come from the post itself. Why is honesty always considered rude? What BS excuses have I made? I posted my opinion and immediately was flamed by the entire posting-police brigade of SDN. You know what makes this place good in my opinion? That if you ask a question someone will answer with what they truly feel. Could I have skirted around my post, and used floral language to make the OP feel good about what I was saying? Yup. You know what also makes this place great? The OP can disregard every word I said. Whoever they are, I'm sure they are quite capable of a) making their own decisions, and b) defending themselves. I think that in my myriad of posts I have made my position quite clear. Love it, leave it, whatever. Just quit trying to pick apart my post piecemeal so that it fits into your characterization of a person you have never met.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

Just quit trying to pick apart my post piecemeal so that it fits into your characterization of a person you have never met.

So ironic that you tell me not to do the very thing that got you in trouble in the first place

 

[stupibname]

round and round the mulberry bush... the monkey chased the weasel... the monkey thought was all in fun... pop goes the weasel.

Best advice would be to stick it out at Penn and apply to med school. If u get in you get to go to medical school and keep ur shinning Penn degree... if you don't get in... then u can go cry/rant to your mother/supportive friends and reapply if you want.

Basically those who get into medical school don't really care about this topic... cuz... guess what?... they are in medchool 😱

But for those who get rejected... two senarios evolve

1. Its because i went to a low ranked state school and medschools are biased towards "top ranked" schools

2. its becuase I went to a ivy league school and had to fight harder than thos e state school people to get my grades while they slept and got 4.0s

Both of these mentalities shift blame for the failure away from the individual and onto outside factors that really should not have played a factor in ur rejection... If you don't get in its becuase you did not do what it takes to impresses medschools... end of story... stop hating on the poor undergards... they are people too 🙁

 

[LizzyM]

Undergrad Schools communicate with adcoms and provide information such as the proportion of students who get certain grades ("only 15% receive a grade of A or A-", the average gpa, the applicant's class rank by gpa. The LOR writers may also put grades in perspective by saying that the student had the second highest score on the final exam (but, sadly got a B+ because of stuff that happened earlier in the semester).

That said, adcoms do have a mental ranking of schools. There are the top tier schools (you know who they are), the middle tier (lots of state schools here, plus some of the schools that are slightly easier to get into) and then there are the rock bottom schools. These can be private or public-- schools that you've never heard of unless you live within 10 miles of their campus. When an adcom sees a 4.0 at that school it might be considered equivalent to a 3.5 at Penn (or less) and the MCAT had better be as good or better than the guy with the 3.5 from Penn or that student from "no name" college won't be getting an interview.

 

[Kiroro]

I go to a state school but I sincerely hope that attending a prestigious top private school would give students some advantage in getting into a med school.

Students in most of those private schools have to pay near $40,000 yearly for tuition alone. After 4 years, that's more than $150,000. With this amount of money, you can buy 5-6 decent new cars or even a small house in a middle sized town.

Since I'm an independent student, going to state school cost me nothing because of the financial aid. Now that I'm in the admission process and meeting many students from top privates at interview, I kinda feel sorry that they are even applying to the same med schools I'm applying... I mean I only applied to normal med schools where I have decent shot in.

I totally feel you. I wouldn't want to pay so much tuition for a top private degree and to find out it doesn't have much impact on the admissions....

Good luck!

Btw I feel that going to top private somewhat helps but I just don't get the feelings that UPenn is among one of those... you know? I would think more like Harvard, Yale or Stanford... 😳

 

[CTSballer11]

Look everyone stop whinning and bitching, this is what the MCAT is for.

 

[Tinker Creek]

Hey,
First of all, I'm a new forum suscriber here, so bear with me. I'm a jr. pre-med at a "prestigious" (Top 10 in USNews) university that I will keep disclosed unless specifically asked.

😉

Main Entry: 1dis·close
1 obsolete : to open up
2 a : to expose to view b archaic : HATCH c : to make known or public

 

[45408]

This issue has been debated heavily, but here's a quick two cents. A prestigious private school will probably make you stand out a little more, but the exact amount will never be sure. It will probably cost you a lot more money, so keep that in mind. You might come from Harvard and be a really great person, but if someone on the adcom met a jerk from Harvard, that perk might not get you anywhere. That's not too likely, but I'm just trying to say that it's not a guarantee.

I went to a state school, loved it, saved lots of money, but I can't tell you if it's gotten me into any top ten schools, because this cycle isn't over. If I had to do everything over again, I'd probably still be at my school though.

 

[firebody]

i go to harvard med school. if you are not one of the other 164 students in my class then you are below me. bow down peons!!

 

[solitude]

My take:

If you go to a "lower-ranked" undergrad, you can get into top medical schools, but usually only if you are a stellar applicant. However, because your school doesn't have quite the name recognition, you might not gain acceptance to as many/all of the top schools.

If you go to a top-10 undergrad, and you get 3.9 and 38+ and have all the other stuff, you will be accepted to nearly every medical school. This is based on both anecdotal and statistical data.

Simply put, if you excel at the top undergrad, which is very difficult, you are virtually guarenteed a spot at a top med school. If you are mediocre at the top undergrad, your undergrad's name might get you an acceptance or two where you otherwise wouldn't. If you do poorly at the top undergrad, you would have been better served at the lower-ranked undergrad. A 3.2 or below at even a top-10 school will not get you very far at all.

The gist: only choose a top-10 undergrad if you have the money to spare (or get substantial financial aid), or you think you can dominate i.e. 3.7+. Otherwise it's not a very good decision.

Just my two cents.

 

[CTSballer11]

My take:

If you go to a "lower-ranked" undergrad, you can get into top medical schools, but usually only if you are a stellar applicant. However, because your school doesn't have quite the name recognition, you might not gain acceptance to as many/all of the top schools.

If you go to a top-10 undergrad, and you get 3.9 and 38+ and have all the other stuff, you will be accepted to nearly every medical school. This is based on both anecdotal and statistical data.

Simply put, if you excel at the top undergrad, which is very difficult, you are virtually guarenteed a spot at a top med school. If you are mediocre at the top undergrad, your undergrad's name might get you an acceptance or two where you otherwise wouldn't. If you do poorly at the top undergrad, you would have been better served at the lower-ranked undergrad. A 3.2 or below at even a top-10 school will not get you very far at all.

The gist: only choose a top-10 undergrad if you have the money to spare (or get substantial financial aid), or you think you can dominate i.e. 3.7+. Otherwise it's not a very good decision.

Just my two cents.

I agree with this. If you excell at a top institution you are guaranteed a ton of med school acceptances. It is not worth it to go to a top undergrad if you make mediocre grades. A good gpa from a meidocre undergrad is better than a mediocre gpa from a top undergrad.

 

[MarzMD]

My take:

If you go to a "lower-ranked" undergrad, you can get into top medical schools, but usually only if you are a stellar applicant. However, because your school doesn't have quite the name recognition, you might not gain acceptance to as many/all of the top schools.

If you go to a top-10 undergrad, and you get 3.9 and 38+ and have all the other stuff, you will be accepted to nearly every medical school. This is based on both anecdotal and statistical data.

Simply put, if you excel at the top undergrad, which is very difficult, you are virtually guarenteed a spot at a top med school. If you are mediocre at the top undergrad, your undergrad's name might get you an acceptance or two where you otherwise wouldn't. If you do poorly at the top undergrad, you would have been better served at the lower-ranked undergrad. A 3.2 or below at even a top-10 school will not get you very far at all.

The gist: only choose a top-10 undergrad if you have the money to spare (or get substantial financial aid), or you think you can dominate i.e. 3.7+. Otherwise it's not a very good decision.

Just my two cents.

This may be the most accurate post in this thread. My thoughts exactly from first hand experience.

 

[threemusketeers]

I would like to point out once and for all that ALL ivy school offer need-blind admission and guaranteed need-based financial aid. The financial aid is based mostly on grants, which you dont have to pay back. It may also include small portions of work-study and loans, depending on the specific school and your financial situation.

The argument that somehow a person cannot afford to go to an ivy school is absolutely unfounded. If you are admitted, you will be able to attend.

It may in fact be cheaper for you to attend your state school simply because of the lower tuition, but it certainly wouldn't be beyond anyone's means to attend an ivy league school. In fact, the poorer you are, the cheaper it would be for you to attend an ivy school since you could get your entire cost covered where as this would not be possible for a public school.

Don't just throw about the argument that "choose a public school because it's cheaper, therefore it's a better investment". That is simply not true.

 

[deleted77919]

I would like to point out once and for all that ALL ivy school offer need-blind admission and guaranteed need-based financial aid.

Don't just throw about the argument that "choose a public school because it's cheaper, therefore it's a better investment". That is simply not true.

For many, it is true that a public university will be cheaper. If you don't qualify for fin aid at an ivy, and you have parents who say "Honey, we'll pay public in-state tutition, if you go to an ivy you're going to need loans to cover the rest" then there is a big difference in cost, and thus an equally large difference in return on investment. My particular university's tution is about $3500/term plus cost of living . . . how far would that go at an ivy? Unfortuantely not very far, and thus large loans. I don't make any excuses for the school I go to, but you can't assume everyone is in the same boat fin aid wise.

 

[-Goose-]

Bla bla bla...

from tulane's secondary this year.
take or leave it, ladies.

"SELECTION FACTORS
Each applicant’s file contains a great amount of pertinent information that is closely scrutinized by the Committee on Admissions. Bright and creative students with strong motivation, evidence of high-level performance, and great potential for continued development seem best suited to give society the medical care it needs and demands. While the Committee must rely on objective data, such as grade averages and MCAT scores, other factors are given careful consideration, including special accomplishments and talents, whether academic performance has continually improved or suffered reverses, faculty appraisals from the applicant’s college, and the applicant’s personal interests and traits. College grades come under close scrutiny. Committee members evaluate the overall grade point average and grades in science courses. They also consider the college attended, recognizing that academic standards vary and that high grades at some schools represent much greater academic achievement than at others. The Committee holds the authority to decide whether a candidate should be invited for an interview and then subsequently accepted, rejected, or placed on a waiting list (acceptance range)."[/

 

[dbhvt]

For many, it is true that a public university will be cheaper. If you don't qualify for fin aid at an ivy, and you have parents who say "Honey, we'll pay public in-state tutition, if you go to an ivy you're going to need loans to cover the rest" then there is a big difference in cost, and thus an equally large difference in return on investment. My particular university's tution is about $3500/term plus cost of living . . . how far would that go at an ivy? Unfortuantely not very far, and thus large loans. I don't make any excuses for the school I go to, but you can't assume everyone is in the same boat fin aid wise.

Absolutely agree. Public universities ARE cheaper. Loans are loans, and financial aid does not help people with rich deadbeat dads. 😡

 

[Doctor Bagel]

For many, it is true that a public university will be cheaper. If you don't qualify for fin aid at an ivy, and you have parents who say "Honey, we'll pay public in-state tutition, if you go to an ivy you're going to need loans to cover the rest" then there is a big difference in cost, and thus an equally large difference in return on investment. My particular university's tution is about $3500/term plus cost of living . . . how far would that go at an ivy? Unfortuantely not very far, and thus large loans. I don't make any excuses for the school I go to, but you can't assume everyone is in the same boat fin aid wise.

and you have to qualify for financial aid to get federal loans. i guess you can maybe get the unsubsidized staffords, but the undergraduate limits are tiny in comparison to the cost of a private education. i got accepted to ivies but couldn't go because my parents supposedly made enough money to pay almost all the cost of the schools. my parents, on the other hand, did not feel like they could afford to send me, so i went to a not-so-spiffy school.

to the op, i agree that it sucks that your grades are lower and you have to work harder than your buddies at mississippi state, but you should feel privileged to have the ability to attend a prestigious school. lots of us didn't have that option, not just because of intellectual inferiority or laziness.

 

[tacrum43]

*passes popcorn*

LOL

In addition, I just have to throw in my two cents and say that top public schools don't give away grades either. In fact, I know that the state school I went to gave way less than 35% A's in many science classes. Sometimes no A's at all.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I would like to point out once and for all that ALL ivy school offer need-blind admission and guaranteed need-based financial aid. The financial aid is based mostly on grants, which you dont have to pay back. It may also include small portions of work-study and loans, depending on the specific school and your financial situation.

The argument that somehow a person cannot afford to go to an ivy school is absolutely unfounded. If you are admitted, you will be able to attend.

It may in fact be cheaper for you to attend your state school simply because of the lower tuition, but it certainly wouldn't be beyond anyone's means to attend an ivy league school. In fact, the poorer you are, the cheaper it would be for you to attend an ivy school since you could get your entire cost covered where as this would not be possible for a public school.

Don't just throw about the argument that "choose a public school because it's cheaper, therefore it's a better investment". That is simply not true.

dude, so not true. financial aid doesn't necessarily match with what your parents feel like they can afford. if your parents aren't willing to pay what the school says they can pay, then you're sol. that was exactly my situation ten years ago, and i doubt it's changed dramatically. if my parents were poor, it wouldn't have been an issue. my husband grew up poor and made bad grades in high school, which seems like such a waste to me because his family was poor enough for him to get enough financial aid to attend an ivy. my parents were on the lower end of the upper middle class and had saved absolutely zero money for me to go to school. not to mention, i was the youngest of four children, so their resources were already depleted. however, after completing a fafsa, faf and appealing a decision, i wound up with a total of about $6k in financial aid. my parents refused to cover the rest (and legitimately probably couldn't cover the rest), so i couldn't go. end of story. so, yes, some people cannot attend ivies because of financial constraints.

for the poor and the wealthy, ivies are great opportunities. for the middle class, it's a little more iffy.

 

[threemusketeers]

For many, it is true that a public university will be cheaper. If you don't qualify for fin aid at an ivy, and you have parents who say "Honey, we'll pay public in-state tutition, if you go to an ivy you're going to need loans to cover the rest" then there is a big difference in cost, and thus an equally large difference in return on investment. My particular university's tution is about $3500/term plus cost of living . . . how far would that go at an ivy? Unfortuantely not very far, and thus large loans. I don't make any excuses for the school I go to, but you can't assume everyone is in the same boat fin aid wise.

The point is not the cost of an ivy school, the point is the financial resources the school provides you to meet those costs. If 3500 is your ceiling for college tuition, there is no way that a school that offers need blind admission and financial aid guarantee, not just ivy schools, would not provide you with a reasonable financial aid package.

It is a completely different matter altogether however, if your parents have the resources to pay full tuition but is unwilling to support you at an ivy school. However, only a very small segment of the population would qualify for this situation.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

The point is not the cost of an ivy school, the point is the financial resources the school provides you to meet those costs. If 3500 is your ceiling for college tuition, there is no way that a school that offers need blind admission and financial aid guarantee, not just ivy schools, would not provide you with a reasonable financial aid package.

It is a completely different matter altogether however, if your parents have the resources to pay full tuition but is unwilling to support you at an ivy school. However, only a very small segment of the population would qualify for this situation.

the ivies that i was accepted to did not provide me with what i considered a "reasonable" financial aid policy. the system doesn't always work that smoothly or fairly, and i don't think my situation is that rare. in fact, i'm sure the same thing is going to happen my very smart 15-year-old niece. her dad makes a good salary, but their mortgate is several times his yearly income (a requirement in the town they live in -- and no, their house is nowhere near a mcmansion). they don't have a lot of left over money and are actually worrying about funding a state school. however, i can totally see private schools coming back and telling them they can pay $30k a year, which they can't.

honestly, why do plus loans exist if financial aid does such a good job at calculating what parents can contribute?

 

[neovenom]

i think too many smaller schools are dismissed as easy. i live in georgia, so the big ones here are georgia tech, emory, and UGA. i went to mercer university, a small private school with a 2,500-ish undergrad student body. i did relativetly well there, graduating with a 3.84; but it wasn't easy to get that. i didn't have many options in terms of advance bio and chem classes, and i'm sure my basic science classes never went into some of the more advanced topics mentioned in the original post. nonetheless, my classes were still challenging. they also prepared me adequately for the MCAT, the only national standard for med school admission. and little ol' me going to a lesser known school beat out lots of hot shots from the big schools and got into med school.

my point is that your undergrad institution isn't one of the top factors that a committee will consider. they're going to look at how well you did there through the four years, how well you stack up against your peers across the nation on the MCAT, and what else you've done with your time.

 

[Centinel]

the ivies that i was accepted to did not provide me with what i considered a "reasonable" financial aid policy. the system doesn't always work that smoothly or fairly, and i don't think my situation is that rare. in fact, i'm sure the same thing is going to happen my very smart 15-year-old niece. her dad makes a good salary, but their mortgate is several times his yearly income (a requirement in the town they live in -- and no, their house is nowhere near a mcmansion). they don't have a lot of left over money and are actually worrying about funding a state school. however, i can totally see private schools coming back and telling them they can pay $30k a year, which they can't.

honestly, why do plus loans exist if financial aid does such a good job at calculating what parents can contribute?

Well, if they earn under $45,000 per year, Yale would be free... Under $40,000 and Harvard and Princeton, too.