Training in Psychiatry outside the U.S.

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MCB2014

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Hello!

I did not Match in Psychiatry this year (PGY2), so I am considering looking for a residency position outside of the U.S. I know nothing at all about the programs in the U.K., Canada, and New Zealand/Australia, so I was hoping someone here could tell me a bit about how this might work, or if there is an equivalent forum for this sort of situation.

Thanks a lot in advance, and I hope everyone found a position they are happy with.

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what is your citizenship? if you aren't a British citizen you will have difficulty obtaining a poat in the UK. you will have to do 1-2yrs of medicine and surgery before applying to psychiatry. Australia is likely bot an option nor is canada. new zealand maybe but you'll have to look into it. also if you can't find a position in this country what makes you think you will be attractive elsewhere?
 
what is your citizenship? if you aren't a British citizen you will have difficulty obtaining a poat in the UK. you will have to do 1-2yrs of medicine and surgery before applying to psychiatry. Australia is likely bot an option nor is canada. new zealand maybe but you'll have to look into it. also if you can't find a position in this country what makes you think you will be attractive elsewhere?

I'm a U.S. citizen and have already done 1 year of medicine, took a 4 year break to do a postdoc...and that is a very good question (attractiveness). It's hard to say, since we don't get feedback about our applications. I can either try again next year, or try outside the U.S.

For now I am just exploring my options...thanks for the information.
 
I'm a U.S. citizen and have already done 1 year of medicine, took a 4 year break to do a postdoc...and that is a very good question (attractiveness). It's hard to say, since we don't get feedback about our applications. I can either try again next year, or try outside the U.S.

For now I am just exploring my options...thanks for the information.

Canada and U.K. will be more challenging than the US and you will have to deal with a lot of uncertainty. If you re enter the match and include at least 50 low tier programs you will be maximizing your odds I believe. Did you only try for PGY2 positions? That makes it much harder.

I don't know much about your odds as a US grad in NZ or Australia but amongst IMGs, despite increasing barriers, the US is still the best option in terms of odds.
 
Hello!

I did not Match in Psychiatry this year (PGY2), so I am considering looking for a residency position outside of the U.S. I know nothing at all about the programs in the U.K., Canada, and New Zealand/Australia, so I was hoping someone here could tell me a bit about how this might work, or if there is an equivalent forum for this sort of situation.

Thanks a lot in advance, and I hope everyone found a position they are happy with.
Where is your medical degree from? When did you originally graduate? What citizenships do you hold? These have a big impact on what is practical and even possible.
 
Canada and U.K. will be more challenging than the US and you will have to deal with a lot of uncertainty. If you re enter the match and include at least 50 low tier programs you will be maximizing your odds I believe. Did you only try for PGY2 positions? That makes it much harder.

I don't know much about your odds as a US grad in NZ or Australia but amongst IMGs, despite increasing barriers, the US is still the best option in terms of odds.

Thanks for your reply, I only applied to for PGY2 positions, and there weren't many options, so I think I just didn't cast a wide enough net.
 
Where is your medical degree from? When did you originally graduate? What citizenships do you hold? These have a big impact on what is practical and even possible.

My medical degree is from the U.S., 2011, residency for one year immediately after, and I am a U.S. citizen, currently living in Europe. As I read and enquire, I think my only choice will be to try again in the U.S. next year...I am a little worried about having spent so much time away, but there isn't much to be done about that!
 
My medical degree is from the U.S., 2011, residency for one year immediately after, and I am a U.S. citizen, currently living in Europe. As I read and enquire, I think my only choice will be to try again in the U.S. next year...I am a little worried about having spent so much time away, but there isn't much to be done about that!
Wait, so you trained for a year in the US, left, and re-applied to psych back here five years out? That explains the lack of a match. Do you have any other residencies or citizenships you could possibly acquire? EU citizenship would seriously help you.
 
Wait, so you trained for a year in the US, left, and re-applied to psych back here five years out? That explains the lack of a match. Do you have any other residencies or citizenships you could possibly acquire? EU citizenship would seriously help you.

Sounds like did a prelim year although possibly dropped after 1 year of IM and now trying to get into psych 5 years later. Sort of a loaded question without knowing much else which is probably why they are inquiring about alternative countries.

To OP, one would think if you decided to pursue the research route for 4 years after a year of clinical practice that you would be one to stay in research. I'm sure you realize this but everything about your application needs to show why this is not the case.
 
Sounds like did a prelim year although possibly dropped after 1 year of IM and now trying to get into psych 5 years later. Sort of a loaded question without knowing much else which is probably why they are inquiring about alternative countries.

To OP, one would think if you decided to pursue the research route for 4 years after a year of clinical practice that you would be one to stay in research. I'm sure you realize this but everything about your application needs to show why this is not the case.

Thank you for your comments. Yes, I left my initial training program to pursue research, and now want to go back to clinical work. Actually, I was able to get several interviews at very good places, and got positive feedback from the directors (descriptions such as 'excellent candidate', 'terrific', etc). My research has been quite successful, so I actually think it helped me, but again, it's hard to say how I compared to other applicants, and whether my time away was a factor in not getting a position.
 
Thank you for your comments. Yes, I left my initial training program to pursue research, and now want to go back to clinical work. Actually, I was able to get several interviews at very good places, and got positive feedback from the directors (descriptions such as 'excellent candidate', 'terrific', etc). My research has been quite successful, so I actually think it helped me, but again, it's hard to say how I compared to other applicants, and whether my time away was a factor in not getting a position.

Certainly MD/PhDs have a bit of an easy street in psychiatry but it's a bit crazy to say leaving medicine for 4 years is making a PD more interested than had you gone straight in. Your time away is a factor, undeniably. You might make some chairs very excited but PDs have to account for how your clinical work will be. I'm not saying you arent capable of doing all that, I'm just saying that your results are for a clear reason and so you know that reason and it is one to directly address.
 
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Certainly MD/PhDs have a bit of an easy street in psychiatry but it's a bit crazy to say leaving medicine for 4 years is making a PD more interested than had you gone straight in. Your time away is a factor, undeniably. You might make some chairs very excited but PDs have to account for how your clinical work will be. I'm not saying you arent capable of doing all that, I'm just saying that your results are for a clear reason and so you know that reason and it is one to directly address.

Ah, no, you misunderstood my meaning. I am not saying that leaving for 4 years is making a PD more interested than if I had switched directly without a gap. I'm saying that the fact that I spent those 4 years doing research that, thankfully, has gone well has probably been helpful for trying to get a position now, in response to your comment about being convincing in my application about wanting to do clinical work rather than staying in research. Anyway, only the PDs where I interviewed know the reason why I was seen as less competitive. Here, I am just asking for advice about training abroad. Thanks for your input though.
 
Hi hamstergang, no, I did not apply until this year. I wanted to honor my commitments here first. Why do you ask?
Just based on prior posts of yours. If you had previously applied years ago and not gotten accepted that could have changed things.

As it is, I don't have much help to offer. Just trying to help others help you better.
 
what do you mean you didnt match? the majority of PHY-2 spots are outside the match. Did you apply to all these? it much less competitive as a PGY-2 than for PGY-1 spots. PGY-2 spots are typically offered on a rolling basis. ie you need to get in early
 
Just based on prior posts of yours. If you had previously applied years ago and not gotten accepted that could have changed things.

As it is, I don't have much help to offer. Just trying to help others help you better.

Thanks hamstergang. I probably should have tried a year or two ago, it would have been easier! But this project needed more time.
 
what do you mean you didnt match? the majority of PHY-2 spots are outside the match. Did you apply to all these? it much less competitive as a PGY-2 than for PGY-1 spots. PGY-2 spots are typically offered on a rolling basis. ie you need to get in early
I started applying in September I think...most places weren't ready to receive applications before that. I'm not sure if there is a website with a comprehensive list of PGY2 positions. At the time I had to just go to each programs website and send them emails. Some positions are 'created' as well...they try to squeeze you in.
 
How broadly did you apply btw?

Not very. West and East Coast, where family and friends are. Basically only where I would actually want to live. There were only a handful of PGY2 positions advertised. I'm not sure how many people are competing for these positions each year, so it was hard for me to gauge how concerned I should be about getting hired. Also, I was a bit surprised to find that several very competitive programs were actually interested in my application, so I felt I might have a good chance.
 
Not very. West and East Coast, where family and friends are. Basically only where I would actually want to live. There were only a handful of PGY2 positions advertised. I'm not sure how many people are competing for these positions each year, so it was hard for me to gauge how concerned I should be about getting hired. Also, I was a bit surprised to find that several very competitive programs were actually interested in my application, so I felt I might have a good chance.
That's your biggest problem right there- you might have got some bites if you looked in some less desirable areas. Now instead of training for a few years in the Midwest, you're looking at a lifetime abroad, if you can find a way to swing it.
 
That's your biggest problem right there- you might have got some bites if you looked in some less desirable areas. Now instead of training for a few years in the Midwest, you're looking at a lifetime abroad, if you can find a way to swing it.

You make it sound like a lifetime abroad is a bad thing ;) Spend a couple of years outside of the U.S. and you might not think the same way.
 
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You make it sound like a lifetime abroad is a bad thing ;) Spend a couple of years outside of the U.S. and you might not think the same way.
I love being abroad- hoping to retire overseas at 50 or so- but I'm just saying that if you want to be in the US, you could make it happen.
 
I love being abroad- hoping to retire overseas at 50 or so- but I'm just saying that if you want to be in the US, you could make it happen.

Sure, if I had been willing to take anything that came my way, I would be moving back in June. I do appreciate your trying to be helpful.
 
May I ask you a few questions first? I lived in Europe for some time so will try my best to help: What kind of research project are you doing? And did you get a PhD in Europe? What country are you in? Do you speak any other languages (e.g. French, German)?

As far as I know, it's hard for non-Canadians to match in Canada.

In Australia, if you don't have an Australian green card it's tough. They increased their med school student number around 2010 and it's pretty saturated now with local students. Also they don't fully recognize USMLE you still need to take an expensive exam. But I heard if you finish US 3rd Year residency you can practice there, not sure if it's true.
Heard New Zealand's easier, haven't looked much into it.
France and Germany are possible, but you need extra exams and speak the languages


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In Australia, if you don't have an Australian green card it's tough. They increased their med school student number around 2010 and it's pretty saturated now with local students. Also they don't fully recognize USMLE you still need to take an expensive exam. But I heard if you finish US 3rd Year residency you can practice there, not sure if it's true.
Not that is not true. You basically need to have done 5 years of psychiatry training, including 6 months of child and adolescent psychiatry, and 6 months of consultation-liaison psychiatry. The recruiter I spoke to the other day, said they were looking for people who had worked for an attending for 3 years before you could work work as a consultant psychiatrist in australia. And of course you would likely be working in the middle of nowhere. She said they had recently made things more stringent, i.e. it is now more difficult for people to come from other countries to practice in Australia.
 
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May I ask you a few questions first? I lived in Europe for some time so will try my best to help: What kind of research project are you doing? And did you get a PhD in Europe? What country are you in? Do you speak any other languages (e.g. French, German)?

As far as I know, it's hard for non-Canadians to match in Canada.

In Australia, if you don't have an Australian green card it's tough. They increased their med school student number around 2010 and it's pretty saturated now with local students. Also they don't fully recognize USMLE you still need to take an expensive exam. But I heard if you finish US 3rd Year residency you can practice there, not sure if it's true.
Heard New Zealand's easier, haven't looked much into it.
France and Germany are possible, but you need extra exams and speak the languages


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Not that is not true. You basically need to have done 5 years of psychiatry training, including 6 months of child and adolescent psychiatry, and 6 months of consultation-liaison psychiatry. The recruiter I spoke to the other day, said they were looking for people who had worked for an attending for 3 years before you could work work as a consultant psychiatrist in australia. And of course you would likely be working in the middle of nowhere. She said they had recently made things more stringent, i.e. it is now more difficult for people to come from other countries to practice in Australia.

I have already looked into New Zealand -- similar to Australia, unless an applicant is a graduate of a U.K. medial school, they must already have an unrestricted medical license and have practiced medicine under that license for 3 out of the last 4 years in order to train in any specialty, so it looks like they are happy to recruit medical doctors who are already trained, but they don't make it easy to actually get trained there.
 
For working in Australia, see: Medical Board of Australia - International medical graduates (IMGs)

After finishing medical school, local graduates have to do a supervised general year (PGY1/internship) which consists of mandatory medical, surgical and emergency terms to obtain general registration. Psychiatry training can be applied for the following year, although it's becoming more common for doctors to work an unaccredited general years (PGY2+/residency) before applying similar to other specialities.

As an IMG who isn't yet a specialist, I'd suspect you'd have to come in under the standard pathway, which would involve exams and 12 months of supervised practice to obtain general registration. The challenge will be getting a position for supervised practice. After that point, entry into psychiatry training is the same as the above.
 
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Here is the Royal Australian New Zealand College of Psychiatry's selection of trainee requirements as well, hope this helps.

Selection of trainees | RANZCP
 
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