Transferring from a Community College to an Ivy: Do-able?

[thereshope]

I am a firm believer that, ultimately, all is possible with will and hard work. However, I am in need of some inspiration (or a reality check).
Does anyone know of/personally experienced a success story about a community college student who transferred to an Ivy League?
My local university options are some of the best in the country but it has always been my dream to attend Harvard. I am a freshman at a junior college and will be applying in Fall 2014.
What advice/stories/inspirations can you enlighten me with? Realistically speaking, do you think it's do-able?

Thank you

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[yugo2113]

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[23premes]

I attended a top 3 university and we had 2 students transfer in for my class..,which is pretty much unheard of. One attended some state school doing CS and the other came from a CC and was a URM. Almost no one transfers in to my school though. It's just way too selective so, it's possible but not likely. Probably less than 2 percent


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[Nasrudin]

If you really want the ivy atmosphere the best thing to do is just keep working hard every step of the way. And hopefully at some point you could make it in. You don't have to go there as an undergrad. You have a shot at med school. And then your best one at residency level. And then....you too....can swim around in the cool, staid, stuffy vibe of Boston Brahmin society. It's very sexy. Extremely funky. I hope you like to dance.

 

[SN12357]

I am a firm believer that, ultimately, all is possible with will and hard work. However, I am in need of some inspiration (or a reality check).
Does anyone know of/personally experienced a success story about a community college student who transferred to an Ivy League?
My local university options are some of the best in the country but it has always been my dream to attend Harvard. I am a freshman at a junior college and will be applying in Fall 2014.
What advice/stories/inspirations can you enlighten me with? Realistically speaking, do you think it's do-able?

Thank you

If Harvard is your dream, it's pretty much certain Harvard will disappoint you. The reality is more complex and multi-sided than 99.99% of the dreams of Harvard dancing in premed heads.

As others have said, transferring into the ivies is possible but extremely difficult. Whatever you decide I strongly encourage you to not get your heart set on any one school. Being able to be happy with many different options is an extremely useful skill. Set your goal to transfer to a great 4-year school and then get into medical school. If that ends up being Harvard, great. If it's somewhere else....pretty much equally great in the long run.

 

[QofQuimica]

I would argue that you are focusing on the wrong goal. College is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. The real goals should be the liberal arts education you hope to obtain and the future career you hope to have, not the specific school you attend in order to accomplish these things. And if your future goal is med school, and you have access to good, cheap state universities, then unless you're independently wealthy, you'd be a fool to throw that advantage away to go to an expensive private school. Med school debt is high enough even at state schools. Don't add insult to injury by unnecessarily paying premium prices for UG. Once you start medical school, no one will care where you went to college.

 

[Derpz]

If you're set on an Ivy look at Cornell - College of Human Ecology. They're CC friendly and have some interesting majors, transfer admit rate around 1/3rd. If you're rich apply to Columbia-GS. Stanford, Harvard, Yale are all 2% or less admit rate. Dartmouth has been under 4%.

All that being said I started @ a CC after time in the military, transferred to my state flagship for my 2nd yr, and got accepted to 4 of 5 ivies I applied to this past spring. It can be done but you need a 3.9+ and a hook to get into any of these schools with below a 10% transfer admit rate (includes Duke, NW, Chicago, Georgetown, Hopkins, + other ivies).

 

[Quik]

I would argue that you are focusing on the wrong goal. College is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. The real goals should be the liberal arts education you hope to obtain and the future career you hope to have, not the specific school you attend in order to accomplish these things. And if your future goal is med school, and you have access to good, cheap state universities, then unless you're independently wealthy, you'd be a fool to throw that advantage away to go to an expensive private school. Med school debt is high enough even at state schools. Don't add insult to injury by unnecessarily paying premium prices for UG. Once you start medical school, no one will care where you went to college.

As usual, Q nails it. ^this, this, this.... remember, should you take on the added expense of an expensive UG education that to med schools isn't as highly valued as a high GPA from any other reputable school (with a lower cost), and you take on a debt burden, it will be a very long time before you'll begin paying these loans off while interest accrues. As Q stated earlier, your UG institution matters very little. Grades, MCAT scores, and EC's matter most.

 

[BurberryDoc]

I attended Community College for two years and then transferred to Cornell University.
Short answer: Yes, it is do-able.
Long answer: PM me if you have specific questions, I'd be happy to talk about it with you

 

[thereshope]

I attended Community College for two years and then transferred to Cornell University.
Short answer: Yes, it is do-able.
Long answer: PM me if you have specific questions, I'd be happy to talk about it with you

That would be great, thank you so much!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

The only place that really looks at community college transfers is Cornell. This happens because of some association with the CC honor society phi theta kappa. I personally know one transfer to Stanford if that school interests you.

 

[Jamie407]

Whats your major? It's not science related, but a girl that was in my Comp 1 class at CC in Florida transferred to Harvard as an English (or something language related) major... I'm sure you know that you don't have to declare a science based major.. I studied music and took all the science pre-reqs, and things worked out just fine!

I think Q hit the nail on the head earlier when he/she mentioned what your ultimate goal is. I went to a CC and then transferred to a middle of the road university to finish all my higher level required classes. I saved a considerable amount of money doing this and i'm going to be a doctor which is my ultimate goal. I worked hard and have succeeded in my plan so far (but it's very far from being over!!)...

Best of luck

 

[mavric1298]

What is your reasoning for wanting to go there, and why only there?

http://transferweb.com/stats/transfer-acceptance-rates/#.U1R_cl5fPvA

1.04% chance of getting in.

 

[Law2Doc]

I am a firm believer that, ultimately, all is possible with will and hard work. However, I am in need of some inspiration (or a reality check).
Does anyone know of/personally experienced a success story about a community college student who transferred to an Ivy League?
My local university options are some of the best in the country but it has always been my dream to attend Harvard. I am a freshman at a junior college and will be applying in Fall 2014.
What advice/stories/inspirations can you enlighten me with? Realistically speaking, do you think it's do-able?

Thank you

Change your dream. Focus in a longer term goal than college. Can you transfer from cc to Harvard? No. Probably not. Can you ultimtely end up on the same career path a Harvard grad would? Probably. Your goal should be to get from your cc to a decent 4 year university. Think State school not ivy. Then seize the opportunities available there. It's what you do once there and thereafter that matters. You can always do a fellowship (assuming you are premed) at Harvard and wear the crimson later and no one will question your pedigree (think Dr Rey from Dr 90210).

 

[Gauss44]

I am a firm believer that, ultimately, all is possible with will and hard work. However, I am in need of some inspiration (or a reality check).
Does anyone know of/personally experienced a success story about a community college student who transferred to an Ivy League?
My local university options are some of the best in the country but it has always been my dream to attend Harvard. I am a freshman at a junior college and will be applying in Fall 2014.
What advice/stories/inspirations can you enlighten me with? Realistically speaking, do you think it's do-able?

Thank you

Unless there's a policy in place to specifically ban community college students, I would say that it's possible but not probable. It would probably depend on your entire application. Some examples of when I think it could work: 1. If you were previously doing well at an Ivy before taking some classes at a community college. 2. If you went to a well known Ivy-feeder high school, did well, and continued to do well at the community college. 3. You did a combination of other amazing things that proved to admissions that you could handle their school work and that you would be valuable to them. 4. (I have second hand knowledge of a situation similar to this one.) Your dad is a CEO of a company where that Ivy league school wants to place graduates and students. Your parents negotiate a deal where the school gets a permanent internship program with dad's company, plus a scholarship fund funded by your parents, in exchange for the school's giving you a chance. And if you flunk you, they get to keep the internship and scholarship. 5. You went from a community college to a better college to a better college, etc. and kept getting good grades and accomplishing a lot. (I'm sure there's more possibilities.)

Good luck!

 

[familyaerospace]

Broward Community College in Ft Lauderdale (now called Broward College) had people transfer to Harvard regularly when I was there.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

It's not worth going to an Ivy if you want to go med school IMO. I went to a top 5 school for undergrad (not technically "Ivy League"). Unless you have a very clearly defined goal in terms of research, or you want to design your own major, it's not worth the premium price tag and stress. Competition is pretty ruthless. Some people thrive in that sort of environment. Decide if you're one of them, and if you have very good reasons for attending such an institution.

With a degree from my alma mater, I could've gotten a sweet finance job. A lot of my classmates did, and they're making bank straight out of undergrad. A few of my pre-med classmates had to get Master's degrees or enroll in SMPs because their GPAs were too low for med school. Sciences courses are difficult anywhere you take them. At least at a state school the curve won't be set by students who were all the best of the best at their respective high schools.

 

[abn632]

One option is to consider the backdoor into the Ivies. E.g. Harvard Extension School, Brown University's Resumed Undergraduate Education Program, Columbia's School of General Studies, etc. Everybody at those respective schools who got in the traditional way wouldn't consider you to be a legit Harvard/Brown/Columbia student, but the common folk won't know any better.

If you're doing this just for the prestige then you're probably just throwing your money away. Go to the best school you possible can without bankrupting yourself. In many cases, this is the flagship public university (U of Washington/Oregon/California/Oklahoma/Georgia/Kentucky etc...). Believe it or not, graduates from large public universities go out and do great things, too.

 

[Derpz]

-Harvard Extension grants a Harvard Extension degree...personally I'd avoid this route


-Brown REU grants you a Brown degree (it is Brown-same degree/classes etc...acceptance rates are worse than traditional Brown transfer rates)
-Columbia GS - falls under the Arts & Sciences umbrella - degree is in english vs. latin - you take classes w/everyone else + some extra writing classes
-UPenn LPS - falls under Arts & Sciences - degree/majors are identical to the normal UPenn degree - have to take an extra writing class or two
-Yale - Eli Whitney - same degree, worse financial aid...they won't cover room and board otherwise identical experience as Yale undergrad

I transferred last year and got into some of these programs so am well versed as to the peculiarities between them. PM if you have any questions...

Harvard Extension does not lead to the same Harvard degree...it is not on the same level as these others and has very lax admissions/open enrollment

The other 4 have admissions rates ranging from 1-45% - I didn't apply to Columbia GS as their fin. aid sucks (also note Columbia GS is the only avenue available to transferring into Columbia)

 

[QofQuimica]

At least at a state school the curve won't be set by students who were all the best of the best at their respective high schools.

Oh yes it will. The best students at state schools are absolutely on par with the best students at private schools; there is just more of a spread of performance and ability (i.e., more average students mixed in with the top students) among the students at a state school. But don't go to a state university thinking it won't be competitive to set the curve. Premeds are premeds everywhere.

I can speak to this as both the graduate of a state college and a former instructor at a state university. For the former, I was high school class valedictorian. Most of my honors college classmates were top 10% or better of their high schools too. Can you blame us if the state of Florida paid us to go to a state school for free and we took them up on it instead of paying for an OOS school? Because of that opportunity, I never even applied to a single OOS college.

When I was teaching, my A-level chemistry students were also top of their high school classes. Like me, they often couldn't afford to go to a private school financially, but their academic performance was stellar enough that they could have done so academically. The challenge for me was to teach them, while in the same class also teaching the kids who had been B or even C students in high school. That large variation in performance and ability wouldn't happen at a highly selective private school because the average HS students get screened out at the admissions level.

 

[medic86]

Oh yes it will. The best students at state schools are absolutely on par with the best students at private schools; there is just more of a spread of performance and ability (i.e., more average students mixed in with the top students) among the students at a state school. But don't go to a state university thinking it won't be competitive to set the curve. Premeds are premeds everywhere.

I can speak to this as both the graduate of a state college and a former instructor at a state university. For the former, I was high school class valedictorian. Most of my honors college classmates were top 10% or better of their high schools too. Can you blame us if the state of Florida paid us to go to a state school for free and we took them up on it instead of paying for an OOS school? Because of that opportunity, I never even applied to a single OOS college.

When I was teaching, my A-level chemistry students were also top of their high school classes. Like me, they often couldn't afford to go to a private school financially, but their academic performance was stellar enough that they could have done so academically. The challenge for me was to teach them, while in the same class also teaching the kids who had been B or even C students in high school. That large variation in performance and ability wouldn't happen at a highly selective private school because the average HS students get screened out at the admissions level.

+1, many times.

I go to a small state school, and this is so true. Thinking about it, I'm pretty annoyed about the collective intelligence average of the student body at my school. The drop/fail/withdrawal rate of the gen chems at my university are around 60+% - it's a little ridiculous.

 

[Derpz]

I agree with the overall message with one caveat that my former state school lacked the true "genius" level students I've encountered here. I have no doubt that many of the "honors college" students I shared my pre-med courses with back at State U could do just fine at the top5 I'm at now. As an example, from the 150+ med school applicants each year from State U a handful would score in the 34-36 range on the MCAT with maybe 1 going 38+. A 34-36 is very much average amongst the more determined pre-meds here @ the top5 with me having several friends that scored 40+. I was one of those setting the curve at State U in Chem classes and sat in the top 5% in my other science courses. I'm more along the lines of slightly above average here.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

I agree with the overall message with one caveat that my former state school lacked the true "genius" level students I've encountered here. I have no doubt that many of the "honors college" students I shared my pre-med courses with back at State U could do just fine at the top5 I'm at now. As an example, from the 150+ med school applicants each year from State U a handful would score in the 34-36 range on the MCAT with maybe 1 going 38+. A 34-36 is very much average amongst the more determined pre-meds here @ the top5 with me having several friends that scored 40+. I was one of those setting the curve at State U in Chem classes and sat in the top 5% in my other science courses. I'm more along the lines of slightly above average here.

I was shocked to hear about a couple of my undergrad friends getting 40s after 2 months of hardcore prep. They also got into top med schools (Stanford, Harvard, etc.) so I guess they were truly at the top of the heap!

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

Oh yes it will. The best students at state schools are absolutely on par with the best students at private schools; there is just more of a spread of performance and ability (i.e., more average students mixed in with the top students) among the students at a state school. But don't go to a state university thinking it won't be competitive to set the curve. Premeds are premeds everywhere.

I can speak to this as both the graduate of a state college and a former instructor at a state university. For the former, I was high school class valedictorian. Most of my honors college classmates were top 10% or better of their high schools too. Can you blame us if the state of Florida paid us to go to a state school for free and we took them up on it instead of paying for an OOS school? Because of that opportunity, I never even applied to a single OOS college.

When I was teaching, my A-level chemistry students were also top of their high school classes. Like me, they often couldn't afford to go to a private school financially, but their academic performance was stellar enough that they could have done so academically. The challenge for me was to teach them, while in the same class also teaching the kids who had been B or even C students in high school. That large variation in performance and ability wouldn't happen at a highly selective private school because the average HS students get screened out at the admissions level.

Well said.

OP, it's nice to dream about Harvard. Just know that a Harvard degree is what you make of it, and you will be paying the very real cost of tuition if you don't come from a dirt poor or a wealthy family. Best of luck with your journey. I know that at your age, no one could tell me what to do!

 

[QuentinT88]

Oh yes it will. The best students at state schools are absolutely on par with the best students at private schools; there is just more of a spread of performance and ability (i.e., more average students mixed in with the top students) among the students at a state school. But don't go to a state university thinking it won't be competitive to set the curve. Premeds are premeds everywhere.

I can speak to this as both the graduate of a state college and a former instructor at a state university. For the former, I was high school class valedictorian. Most of my honors college classmates were top 10% or better of their high schools too. Can you blame us if the state of Florida paid us to go to a state school for free and we took them up on it instead of paying for an OOS school? Because of that opportunity, I never even applied to a single OOS college.

When I was teaching, my A-level chemistry students were also top of their high school classes. Like me, they often couldn't afford to go to a private school financially, but their academic performance was stellar enough that they could have done so academically. The challenge for me was to teach them, while in the same class also teaching the kids who had been B or even C students in high school. That large variation in performance and ability wouldn't happen at a highly selective private school because the average HS students get screened out at the admissions level.

@QofQuimica, no offense but I disagree. While top state school kids can keep pace with students from top schools, more times then not, they wouldn't be the students setting the curve.

I do agree with you though. The spreed is the key. At top schools, there are more kids who are intelligent + motivated, thus raising the competition overall. At state schools, the spread is so much greater. Some kids at state schools are super stars, some are average, some are way below average. At top schools, most all students were the best in their respective high schools.

I speak from experience personally. I went to a top 20 undergrad and am at a state school right now for a post bacc. I can definitely tell the difference.

OP, my advise is like everyone else. You are going to do what you think is best. But just know that when it comes time for applications, grades > prestige. Focus on getting the best grades for your buck. You will be in debt for a long time, why add $50K a year on top of that just so that you can brag about attending a top school / ivy? Go to a great state school, get a great gpa + MCAT, and apply to top / ivy league caliber med school. If not med school then residency.

Don't focus so much on where you do your undergrad. Think long term.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

@QofQuimica, no offense but I disagree. While top state school kids can keep pace with students from top schools, more times then not, they wouldn't be the students setting the curve.

I speak from experience personally. I went to a top 20 undergrad and am at a state school right now for a post bacc. I can definitely tell the difference.

Depends on your state school. You won't find kids from Davis or UNC being the same caliber as Northern Illinois University or University of Wyoming.

 

[QuentinT88]

Most people know that "state school" =/= UNC, UC-Berkeley, UVA, UMichigan, William & Mary, GaTech, to name a few. Those schools are practically top 20 caliber. I am referring the Northern Illinois Universities of the world (no offense to alums from those schools)

 

[QofQuimica]

I agree with the overall message with one caveat that my former state school lacked the true "genius" level students I've encountered here. I have no doubt that many of the "honors college" students I shared my pre-med courses with back at State U could do just fine at the top5 I'm at now. As an example, from the 150+ med school applicants each year from State U a handful would score in the 34-36 range on the MCAT with maybe 1 going 38+. A 34-36 is very much average amongst the more determined pre-meds here @ the top5 with me having several friends that scored 40+. I was one of those setting the curve at State U in Chem classes and sat in the top 5% in my other science courses. I'm more along the lines of slightly above average here.

That's the wider spread I'm talking about. I got a 43 on the MCAT coming from a state school (both UG and grad school), but it was such a big deal to everyone there precisely because it was so unusual. And I did get comments about it from interviewers, too. I had one guy at a fancy private med school tell me, "You bucked almost all the demographic trends for pulling an MCAT score like that: Southern, female, nontrad, from a state school." The only way it could have been even less statistically likely is if I were URM too.

 

[medic86]

That's the wider spread I'm talking about. I got a 43 on the MCAT coming from a state school (both UG and grad school), but it was such a big deal to everyone there precisely because it was so unusual. And I did get comments about it from interviewers, too. I had one guy at a fancy private med school tell me, "You bucked almost all the demographic trends for pulling an MCAT score like that: Southern, female, nontrad, from a state school." The only way it could have been even less statistically likely is if I were URM too.

You are awesome.

 

[LupaCupcake]

To begin, you are the master of your goals. My suggestion would be to think of Ivy league as the medical school goal , not necessarily right now when you are getting prereqs and all that fun undergrad stuff done. Is it more expensive? Abso-freaking-lutely!!! Many here will you that extra cost is not worth it, but you know what, if you want it chica then go get it!

 

[23premes]

Having gone to a top 3 school it was actually cheaper for me to go there than my state school since my parents are dirt poor and it's basically free if that's your situation. Otherwise I have no idea how I could have gone there. Many of my peers and friends were loaded or in a similar financial situation to me.


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[mavric1298]

Again as this is drifting off topic, 1148 people applied to transfer and 15 people got in. This includes people from other top universities and state schools, so I'm willing to wager there was 0 - non backdoor program community college applicants accepted.

 

[Derpz]

Again as this is drifting off topic, 1148 people applied to transfer and 15 people got in. This includes people from other top universities and state schools, so I'm willing to wager there was 0 - non backdoor program community college applicants accepted.

your wager would be a loss speaking purely on CC -> Ivy transfer happening per the thread title...it can and does happen. I can't speak to Harvard accepting former CC students but I held an offer from Yale at this time last year (via the traditional transfer process) having earned my first 30 credits from a CC.

I have several peers at my current non-Ivy that also held Ivy acceptances. Caveat being they had good stories - formerly homeless/veterans/immigrants w/in the last few years that came here seeking asylum and started @ a CC. Just want the facts out there so the dreamers don't lose all hope...it can happen but you better have a good story.

 

[mavric1298]

I know the subject is Ivy, but the OP clearly state she wants to attend Harvard, and thus was what I was speaking to. Harvard has the second lowest transfer rate of any school. You just took a minority (people CC transferring to Ivy which I agree happens), and took most of the pool away. Cornell skews the data a bit, but there were 1250 transfers into Ivy schools last year. Of those 1250, only 15 were to Harvard.

 

[shezadeh]

I am a firm believer that, ultimately, all is possible with will and hard work. However, I am in need of some inspiration (or a reality check).
Does anyone know of/personally experienced a success story about a community college student who transferred to an Ivy League?
My local university options are some of the best in the country but it has always been my dream to attend Harvard. I am a freshman at a junior college and will be applying in Fall 2014.
What advice/stories/inspirations can you enlighten me with? Realistically speaking, do you think it's do-able?

Thank you

One of my peers from comm. college transferred to Cornell University.

I actually know a few kids who went to community college and now are in medical or pharmacy school too...

 

[box1]

i have NEVER visited a SINGLE ivy-educated doctor here in brooklyn new york or nyc. my girlfriend had a nosejob by sam rizk in nyc who charged her $18,000. another friend had a nosejob by robert guida in nyc for $10,000 i believe. these guys did not go to ivies (at least not what "i" consider ivies). they went to a good school i believe but i did not remember harvard or something like it. all we cared about as clients were before after results and how the doctor understood the concept of beauty. college is just a means to an end like someone said here. it doesn't mean much as long as you go to a "good" school here in the states. the rest is up to you. i do not know how loosely an ivy league school is defined but i have never heard a patient go to a doctor based on the school the doctor was trained at. in real life, that means nothing. all that matters is how professional you actually are and how you treat patients. oh, i also have never asked a doctor about his GPA or exam scores.

 

[pietachok]

i have NEVER visited a SINGLE ivy-educated doctor here in brooklyn new york or nyc. my girlfriend had a nosejob by sam rizk in nyc who charged her $18,000. another friend had a nosejob by robert guida in nyc for $10,000 i believe. these guys did not go to ivies (at least not what "i" consider ivies). they went to a good school i believe but i did not remember harvard or something like it. all we cared about as clients were before after results and how the doctor understood the concept of beauty. college is just a means to an end like someone said here. it doesn't mean much as long as you go to a "good" school here in the states. the rest is up to you. i do not know how loosely an ivy league school is defined but i have never heard a patient go to a doctor based on the school the doctor was trained at. in real life, that means nothing. all that matters is how professional you actually are and how you treat patients. oh, i also have never asked a doctor about his GPA or exam scores.

Great non sequitur.
OP isn't asking about how it will affect her medical education or reputation. The process of education matters to a lot of people, and that will be different in the Ivies and other elite schools vs many state schools (honors programs, etc. aside). While I think it's silly to hang one's hat on Harvard, I completely understand and there is merit in wanting to attend college in a specific academic environment that is not readily provided by places with huge classes and a lower bar for entry. The academic offerings, expectations, culture surrounding learning, EC opportunities, etc. will be different at the top tier schools than lower caliber ones -- the ways in which that shapes one's education and development as a person will exist even if goals of med school change, so it's completely foolish to assume this doesn't matter b/c one can successfully practice with a less prestigious education. OP could decide to go be a school teacher in her senior year of college, and it would not necessarily make her education any more/less important or valuable to her as a person.
8 specific schools constitute the Ivy League, not some arbitrary idea you have of what you "consider" Ivies.

 

[mavric1298]

Troll a little harder. No one cares about how much your GF spent on her nose job or your nice humble brag name drop. All 4 of your posts so far make me shutter on the inside.

 

[box1]

nope. not a troll. just saying it like it is. you go to college to use it as a means. no one cares what school to went to when it comes to patients and all that matters is patients. your insurance companies also don't care. lawyers coming after you for malpractice also don't care. it's for your own ego and that's it. it IS "sequitur" logic. the school you go to obviously affects your education and ultimately we all go for training for one reason - to get a job. this isn't done as a hobby or some kind of joke gig on the weekends. when you get the job, you just become another one of the doctors listed on google or your local listings, be it a phone book, a new york city subway ad like dr. zizmor, or a commercial company hawking your services. if you suck, your patients will destroy you by word of mouth in today's digital age, regardless of which ivy-league-look-at-how-amazing-i-am-school you went to.

i always hear the arguments that you get more opportunities to do this and that at "better" schools but here's the funny thing about life: you only have 24 hours in a day. it doesn't matter if you have 1 or 20 opportunities to do something. you can only do what will fit in one day of those 24 hours and usually 6-8 are spent on sleeping with a few additional hours taken for laundry, cooking/eating, hygiene, phone calls (if you have family), and obviously downtime because you need that to prevent burn-out and recharge your batteries.

remember - you, the medical student, are already LOADED with mounds of information to memorize and put together. how many "more" projects can you actually handle beyond your core courses throughout the academic year? be realistic.

then i hear the quality argument. this holds true to a degree because certain research or anything-else opportunities are present which are supposedly better/exists at one school vs. another but then again, what is it all for? if you want to practice actual medicine, you cannot get "better" human beings to treat when sick compared to someone from a cheaper school. people are people and once again, that's all that matters. if you want more chances to do research and so on, go get a ph.d and call yourself a "doctor" but all it comes down to is studying (are you now going to tell me that medical textbooks are better at these ivy league schools?) and working with patients and real-life scenarios when it comes to being a practicing doctor. EVERYONE including third-world-country educated docs. takes the same exact board exams for their licensing. so you basically can have a harvard educated kid sitting next to someone from xyz university from an obscure city in some strange sounding country. both licenses, when acquired, are valued the same in front of the board's eyes. so, who determines if you are actually a good doctor? the board? or your patients and results? answer that question yourself.

also, if you are going to tell me docs. can continue to do research to "grow" while practicing, i will tell you that they are instead busy chasing insurance companies trying to get paid all the while doubling their patient loads to make bank. this is the behavior i have seen firsthand, read about, and heard over and over again.

yes i could have done the research on what constitutes ivy league schools. it's a few clicks away from google but i really don't care which is why i asked if it's arbitrarily defined. that doesn't change the fact that, ultimately, a school is really just a means to an end.

mavric 1298:

i mentioned the girls getting nosejobs from these docs not because i want you to "care" but to show you all that these docs. are famous and receive clients because of their actual results as well as marketing savvy, along with other things (having contacts in "new york" magazine or paying them off to get yourself on the "top 100 doctors" list, to name one example). you don't realize it but a doctor is a salesman just like everyone else. he has competition and must acquire patients. they are not given to him on demand. and certainly not because "i went to an ivy league school!" the real non-sequitur is YOU who thinks that just because you attend a top-tier medical school, it must follow that you are a great doctor or are owed some kind of awe by your patients. uh, no. and i am willing to bet that there are bad docs. who come out of these programs and vice versa (good docs who come out of non-ivy-league schools). are you the type of person who buys something based on reputation or actual results?

unpopular opinion does not = troll

i see that you are used to hearing things that you agree with. if not, it's automatically something bad. great way to live! you must be so easy to get along with in real life. there will be people who do not agree with nor care to agree with you. you are an adult now so grow up and learn how to accept someone else's perspective. i am not politically correct and i say it like it is, not to please others or collect brownie points.

and oh, keep "shuttering."

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

and oh, keep "shuttering."

I lol'd.

 

[LupaCupcake]

haha......
good times, good times.

You know what made my eyes go wide, 10,000 for a new noggin....10,000 would pay my rent for a year plus give me enough money to put a down payment on a new car since mine literally has duck tape holding some things together lol. Paycheck to paycheck for the win!

Maybe if I go to IVY I can get a new car... JK!! I am totally kidding and probably hijacking this thread a little so I will stop lol.

BACK TO TOPIC LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
We have a lot of haters on this site, they are also your competition and they might tell you that an Ivy is not worth it yet if they got an acceptance letter to Harvard I bet you ten dollars they would post about it proudly on SDN and expect kudos. Just saying.....just saying...

If this is your dream, then go for it and don't listen to anyone else because it is your life! It is possible.

 

[oldstock]

one of my friends went to a "lowly" state university, did poorly and went to CCs then went to very low-tier pharmacy school but did really well there (3.5+ Rho Chi_Honor Society of Pharmacy Students) then went to work a few years as a pharmacist then went to a Caribbean medical school (SABA) in the early 2000's without a MCAT score (which I looked down to at the time) and aced his Step 1 & 2 (95% percentile). Now he is making bank (400-500K+) as an anesthesiologist and partner of some medical group. He's achieved his ultimate dream of becoming a doctor and more.

At the pharmacy place I am at now (a university hospital/clinic), there are many Caribbean doctors / IMGs just like him working along side with US-trained physicians. Someone here already said, it is the result that counts, not where you to go to school. School is what you make of it.

I agree that school is only a mean to an end. It is how well you use your means to achieve your ultimate goal

To the OP: Look at the overall picture and ask yourself if going to Ivy school will get you to your ultimate goal quicker, then do it. It would be really difficult but possible as many already pointed out. If not, do not do it. GL

nope. not a troll. just saying it like it is. you go to college to use it as a means. no one cares what school to went to when it comes to patients and all that matters is patients. your insurance companies also don't care. lawyers coming after you for malpractice also don't care. it's for your own ego and that's it. it IS "sequitur" logic. the school you go to obviously affects your education and ultimately we all go for training for one reason - to get a job. this isn't done as a hobby or some kind of joke gig on the weekends. when you get the job, you just become another one of the doctors listed on google or your local listings, be it a phone book, a new york city subway ad like dr. zizmor, or a commercial company hawking your services. if you suck, your patients will destroy you by word of mouth in today's digital age, regardless of which ivy-league-look-at-how-amazing-i-am-school you went to.

i always hear the arguments that you get more opportunities to do this and that at "better" schools but here's the funny thing about life: you only have 24 hours in a day. it doesn't matter if you have 1 or 20 opportunities to do something. you can only do what will fit in one day of those 24 hours and usually 6-8 are spent on sleeping with a few additional hours taken for laundry, cooking/eating, hygiene, phone calls (if you have family), and obviously downtime because you need that to prevent burn-out and recharge your batteries.

remember - you, the medical student, are already LOADED with mounds of information to memorize and put together. how many "more" projects can you actually handle beyond your core courses throughout the academic year? be realistic.

then i hear the quality argument. this holds true to a degree because certain research or anything-else opportunities are present which are supposedly better/exists at one school vs. another but then again, what is it all for? if you want to practice actual medicine, you cannot get "better" human beings to treat when sick compared to someone from a cheaper school. people are people and once again, that's all that matters. if you want more chances to do research and so on, go get a ph.d and call yourself a "doctor" but all it comes down to is studying (are you now going to tell me that medical textbooks are better at these ivy league schools?) and working with patients and real-life scenarios when it comes to being a practicing doctor. EVERYONE including third-world-country educated docs. takes the same exact board exams for their licensing. so you basically can have a harvard educated kid sitting next to someone from xyz university from an obscure city in some strange sounding country. both licenses, when acquired, are valued the same in front of the board's eyes. so, who determines if you are actually a good doctor? the board? or your patients and results? answer that question yourself.

also, if you are going to tell me docs. can continue to do research to "grow" while practicing, i will tell you that they are instead busy chasing insurance companies trying to get paid all the while doubling their patient loads to make bank. this is the behavior i have seen firsthand, read about, and heard over and over again.

yes i could have done the research on what constitutes ivy league schools. it's a few clicks away from google but i really don't care which is why i asked if it's arbitrarily defined. that doesn't change the fact that, ultimately, a school is really just a means to an end.

mavric 1298:

i mentioned the girls getting nosejobs from these docs not because i want you to "care" but to show you all that these docs. are famous and receive clients because of their actual results as well as marketing savvy, along with other things (having contacts in "new york" magazine or paying them off to get yourself on the "top 100 doctors" list, to name one example). you don't realize it but a doctor is a salesman just like everyone else. he has competition and must acquire patients. they are not given to him on demand. and certainly not because "i went to an ivy league school!" the real non-sequitur is YOU who thinks that just because you attend a top-tier medical school, it must follow that you are a great doctor or are owed some kind of awe by your patients. uh, no. and i am willing to bet that there are bad docs. who come out of these programs and vice versa (good docs who come out of non-ivy-league schools). are you the type of person who buys something based on reputation or actual results?

unpopular opinion does not = troll

i see that you are used to hearing things that you agree with. if not, it's automatically something bad. great way to live! you must be so easy to get along with in real life. there will be people who do not agree with nor care to agree with you. you are an adult now so grow up and learn how to accept someone else's perspective. i am not politically correct and i say it like it is, not to please others or collect brownie points.

and oh, keep "shuttering."

 

[mavric1298]

No the reason you're trolling is because you are obviously intent on stirring up issue's where there doesn't need to be any. My deepest apologies for typing shutter instead of shudder at midnight after working 10 hours, going to class, and studying. I hope you can forgive me and my subpar intellect! Not to mention that I'm academically stupid and lazy since I first got an associates of Arts, god only knows what you would have thought if I was a *gasp* english major!

"also, if you are going to tell me docs. can continue to do research to "grow" while practicing, i will tell you that they are instead busy chasing insurance companies trying to get paid all the while doubling their patient loads to make bank. this is the behavior i have seen firsthand, read about, and heard over and over again."

Wrong, once again. I guess everyone I know that sits at home reading journals, or all the research that my dad does is make believe right? It's not like patient studies are a big part of the job, or that medical knowledge is advancing in such a way that you have to continually be a student ever learning.

And just FYI, all docs have admin workers, and it's usually called PFS, and if you're in a hospital its HB and PB. I do it for living. Docs don't chase insurance, they just do their paperwork. It's other people sole job to be chasing insurance companies. Do they have things they need to do like providing diagnosis codes that will match correct to maximize reimbursement and such, and chart chart chart? Yup.

And lastly, you keep going back and forth on docs don't make money, docs make bank, docs don't make very much money, docs make good money. It's really hard to keep up with your evolving stance that is clearly fluid to match whatever you need it to in your post. Go ahead and take a read here: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/1-million-mistake-becoming-a-doctor/
I'll also try to find, but recently there was a rough calculation, and after average debt, average pay, taxes, and the works, primary care docs bring home about $34 an hour. BANKKKKK. MAKE IT RAIN!

 

[oldstock]

No the reason you're trolling is because you are obviously intent on stirring up issue's where there doesn't need to be any. My deepest apologies for typing shutter instead of shudder at midnight after working 10 hours, going to class, and studying. I hope you can forgive me and my subpar intellect! Not to mention that I'm academically stupid and lazy since I first got an associates of Arts, god only knows what you would have thought if I was a *gasp* english major!

"also, if you are going to tell me docs. can continue to do research to "grow" while practicing, i will tell you that they are instead busy chasing insurance companies trying to get paid all the while doubling their patient loads to make bank. this is the behavior i have seen firsthand, read about, and heard over and over again."

Wrong, once again. I guess everyone I know that sits at home reading journals, or all the research that my dad does is make believe right? It's not like patient studies are a big part of the job, or that medical knowledge is advancing in such a way that you have to continually be a student ever learning.

And just FYI, all docs have admin workers, and it's usually called PFS, and if you're in a hospital its HB and PB. I do it for living. Docs don't chase insurance, they just do their paperwork. It's other people sole job to be chasing insurance companies. Do they have things they need to do like providing diagnosis codes that will match correct to maximize reimbursement and such, and chart chart chart? Yup.

And lastly, you keep going back and forth on docs don't make money, docs make bank, docs don't make very much money, docs make good money. It's really hard to keep up with your evolving stance that is clearly fluid to match whatever you need it to in your post. Go ahead and take a read here: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/1-million-mistake-becoming-a-doctor/
I'll also try to find, but recently there was a rough calculation, and after average debt, average pay, taxes, and the works, primary care docs bring home about $34 an hour. BANKKKKK. MAKE IT RAIN!

OMG !!!!

I might have to start a thread titled, "If you know you would make $34 an hour as a primary doc, would you still want to become one ??

But judging by how many people I have seen want to become doctors, I guess the answer is a big YES

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

No the reason you're trolling is because you are obviously intent on stirring up issue's where there doesn't need to be any. My deepest apologies for typing shutter instead of shudder at midnight after working 10 hours, going to class, and studying. I hope you can forgive me and my subpar intellect! Not to mention that I'm academically stupid and lazy since I first got an associates of Arts, god only knows what you would have thought if I was a *gasp* english major!

No worries about the typo. Happens to the best of us.

"also, if you are going to tell me docs. can continue to do research to "grow" while practicing, i will tell you that they are instead busy chasing insurance companies trying to get paid all the while doubling their patient loads to make bank. this is the behavior i have seen firsthand, read about, and heard over and over again."

Wrong, once again. I guess everyone I know that sits at home reading journals, or all the research that my dad does is make believe right? It's not like patient studies are a big part of the job, or that medical knowledge is advancing in such a way that you have to continually be a student ever learning.

And just FYI, all docs have admin workers, and it's usually called PFS, and if you're in a hospital its HB and PB. I do it for living. Docs don't chase insurance, they just do their paperwork. It's other people sole job to be chasing insurance companies. Do they have things they need to do like providing diagnosis codes that will match correct to maximize reimbursement and such, and chart chart chart? Yup.

I'm not sure so sure about that point. The psychiatrist I shadowed told me that he spent a lot of time during his years in private practice on the phone with insurance companies, trying to argue for specific medications to be covered. He mentioned having office staff, so apparently some physicians do deal directly with insurance companies. He made it sound like a huge headache.

 

[mavric1298]

http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2010/06/doctors-money-people.html

And doing anything with them is a HUGE PITA. Obviously it depends a huge amount on practice size, if your with a hospital, etc. but generally speaking it's more of an exception then a rule. With that said, admin type work is around 1/4 of a Dr's day, charting, the precursors to coding, etc. Our docs have absolutely no idea of what goes on with billing, ordering, etc. they just do the work they need to.

But, if it's a patient advocacy issue, they'll often get on the horn directly to the supplier/insurance co/drug co. For example we had a patient who was too young to qualify for a discounted drug program for a biologic (can be tens of thousands a month), and the Dr called directly to work something out.

 

[theriomorphos]

Trying to start this thread again. I recently got accepted to two ivy league schools from a reputed community college known for its rigor. I shall be starting in Fall 16. I want to ask those who have already done it so far, what were your experiences like?