Trends in EM compensation (med students read this)

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It just makes her look kind of stupid. I also grew up with nothing, but accepting ridiculously low salaries is actually just very selfish and hurts the entire specialty.

Nowhere did I say that. I’ll be working where there’s usually IM\FM hired. Those hospitals can’t pay an EM trained doc $300 or they’d go bankrupt. And so I’m happy with $225. I won’t go below $200. They can shove that. And yes, I’ll be happy with $100k, in as few shifts as possible.

If I can get $300/hr where I want to be, I’ll definitely take it. I’m not stupid. It’s more about how far away can I get from a big city and still make a decent amount.

$200/hr at 140 hours a month is still over $300k/year. Guess I’m just naive to think that’s an insult when others make <$200k annually.

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Guess I’m just naive to think that’s an insult when others make <$200k annually.

What's most insulting is you being willfully ignorant of what your expertise is actually worth.
That's the cognitive error that keeps the old fat vasculopaths having 2-hour power lunches and buying yachts with the money that you yourself earn.

Would you say to a thief who entered your home: "I won't be so mad if you only steal half of my stuff and harm just one out of three of my kids" - ?
 
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Never said any of that. I work to live, not live to work. I just don’t feel the need to make $500k/year to feel accomplished.

Never had a roommate other than the one I married. Or I guess the ones I made. And I don’t like ramen.
Oh, man. When I first started, ~20 years ago, I felt like I might be overpaid too. Bit of imposter syndrome. Then I spent some time doing the job, realizing what other docs made, realizing what the malpractice rate was, realizing I couldn’t make one single error or missed lab in a 10-12 hour shift, realizing if I made one smalI mistake someone might die, realizing 4 traumas might come in for me to manage at once. Then I realized I might actually get an appropriate salary. Was a great company, said their lower pay was accounted for by being “family friendly” and actually including voting and input from all docs.

Then, my company sold out to a hedge fund, cut the pay, slashed 401k, many other cuts, and the (admittedly charismatic) founder tried to convince all the docs it was for the best that hedge funders now took half of our profits.

Times have changed. Now my company is having APP’s staff free standings without docs; do all advanced procedures without docs (central lines, intubations, etc); and push for a 1:4 doc:app ratio in all busy ED’s. They have an “Academy” that teaches app’s all these advanced procedures. The only patients that docs are required to staff with APP’s are ESI 1, basically codes. Salaries haven’t changes in years. The “vested portion” of the company from docs is down 75% of what the CEO said it would be worth.

If you’re making 100k per year, and the hedge funder is making 400k off the work and risk that you’re taking, that‘s not fair.

I still remember in med school, one honest professor told us that “You’ll think things are great now! But that‘s only because you didn’t know how good it was before you started.”
 
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Cause if they replaced doc with MLPs they'd lose the contract.
Dont think so. Hospitals dont care that much. If they did the CMGs wouldn't be expanding as they are. Many hospitals have a nurse that outranks any doctor. They drank the kool aid.
 
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The real point is when you work for a rent seeker they may collect $400/hr for your labor.. they will then pay you $180/hr.. that's the issue in my book. Truly there will never be a shortage in even semi desireable cities of EM docs willing to work for wages low enough for private equity to make bank. Even the more rural "undesirable"places will be an issue. As there are more and more EM docs pushing fake EM docs out they will drive rural rates down and believe me whoever hires you will value their wallet more than your training. If a place takes IM/FP its code for "****ty pay".
 
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Even with the money of the past you still had many docs burn out and have PTSD. The time away from your family working half of all weekends and holidays. The exams you take and all the stress that comes with this job but a hedge manager (who may only have a BS in business) makes more than you with no liability and doesn't work nights, weekends, is on call or holidays.

We risk getting exposed to covid, needle stick injury, with no health insurance. If this job was so great we wouldnt have exit strategy threads. Many in academics also cherish the fact that they work less clinical shifts and take a pay cut gladly.

Also many docs don't factor in opportunity cost.
 
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I lived off ramen and had 3 roommates throughout college and med school. I then lived off 50-60 k/year in residency and was barely able to put any money into retirement. I'm happy with anything over 100 k/year as an attending. I have passion for medicine!

You are the problem. Your pointless, altruistic "passion" will contribute to death of our specialty and decline in salary. Have fun making minimum wage pursuing your "passion".
 
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Oh, man. When I first started, ~20 years ago, I felt like I might be overpaid too. Bit of imposter syndrome. Then I spent some time doing the job, realizing what other docs made, realizing what the malpractice rate was, realizing I couldn’t make one single error or missed lab in a 10-12 hour shift, realizing if I made one smalI mistake someone might die, realizing 4 traumas might come in for me to manage at once. Then I realized I might actually get an appropriate salary. Was a great company, said their lower pay was accounted for by being “family friendly” and actually including voting and input from all docs.

Then, my company sold out to a hedge fund, cut the pay, slashed 401k, many other cuts, and the (admittedly charismatic) founder tried to convince all the docs it was for the best that hedge funders now took half of our profits.

Times have changed. Now my company is having APP’s staff free standings without docs; do all advanced procedures without docs (central lines, intubations, etc); and push for a 1:4 doc:app ratio in all busy ED’s. They have an “Academy” that teaches app’s all these advanced procedures. The only patients that docs are required to staff with APP’s are ESI 1, basically codes. Salaries haven’t changes in years. The “vested portion” of the company from docs is down 75% of what the CEO said it would be worth.

If you’re making 100k per year, and the hedge funder is making 400k off the work and risk that you’re taking, that‘s not fair.

I still remember in med school, one honest professor told us that “You’ll think things are great now! But that‘s only because you didn’t know how good it was before you started.”
Smells like USACS....
 
Nowhere did I say that. I’ll be working where there’s usually IM\FM hired. Those hospitals can’t pay an EM trained doc $300 or they’d go bankrupt. And so I’m happy with $225. I won’t go below $200. They can shove that. And yes, I’ll be happy with $100k, in as few shifts as possible.

If I can get $300/hr where I want to be, I’ll definitely take it. I’m not stupid. It’s more about how far away can I get from a big city and still make a decent amount.

$200/hr at 140 hours a month is still over $300k/year. Guess I’m just naive to think that’s an insult when others make <$200k annually.

Is this a joke??? You really think hospitals would go bankrupt paying you $300/h?? You’re either sarcastic or have no idea about billing. My guess is that you can’t, but if you have the ability to, you should look at your departments books. For the last month of the last fiscal year, I billed well over $700/hr not counting procedures billing. And that includes a fair number of sleepy overnight shifts at our low acuity community affiliate. Yes, billing doesn’t equate to collections and you have to cover malpractice and admin, but come on.

And what are you talking about people making <200k? Who are you talking about? If people outside of medicine, yea, so what? If people inside of medicine are making <200k, they’re doing it wrong. I know FP and less making 400k. Sure, an academic ID doc may make 180, but they’re working 6 weeks a year clinically and spending the rest of the time in the lab.

You have been brainwashed by HCA or USACS or whomever. You need to learn about this stuff and defend our profession before you just give it away.
 
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Is this a joke??? You really think hospitals would go bankrupt paying you $300/h?? You’re either sarcastic or have no idea about billing. My guess is that you can’t, but if you have the ability to, you should look at your departments books. For the last month of the last fiscal year, I billed well over $700/hr not counting procedures billing. And that includes a fair number of sleepy overnight shifts at our low acuity community affiliate. Yes, billing doesn’t equate to collections and you have to cover malpractice and admin, but come on.

I know this has been discussed before, and you alluded to it as well... but quoting billing is absolutely and completely meaningless. Since I can set billing rates to whatever I want, I can bill $1M/hr and only see one patient per hour. However I can’t set collection rates. If I only collect $100 off that one patient, then who cares that I billed one million. The only number that is relevant and can’t be manipulated is your collections.
 
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Nowhere did I say that. I’ll be working where there’s usually IM\FM hired. Those hospitals can’t pay an EM trained doc $300 or they’d go bankrupt. And so I’m happy with $225. I won’t go below $200. They can shove that. And yes, I’ll be happy with $100k, in as few shifts as possible.

If I can get $300/hr where I want to be, I’ll definitely take it. I’m not stupid. It’s more about how far away can I get from a big city and still make a decent amount.

$200/hr at 140 hours a month is still over $300k/year. Guess I’m just naive to think that’s an insult when others make <$200k annually.

I think some people are being a little harsh but you should know that on average the hospital is collecting $150 in physician fees for every patient not including all the other charges associated with an ED visit. That means that for a small community hospital that sees 20K patients its entirely possible to pay $300 to their physicians and still make a profit from ED visits. Now obviously this doesn't apply to small critical access hospitals that don't see anywhere close to 20K patients but these hospitals receive funding from the government to cover all of the costs associated with hiring and retaining physicians to staff their hospitals. Regardless the bottom line is that you should be getting on average $150 for every patient seen during an ED shift and if not that means that someone within the hospital administration is literally pocketing that money for themselves.
 
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I lived off ramen and had 3 roommates throughout college and med school. I then lived off 50-60 k/year in residency and was barely able to put any money into retirement. I'm happy with anything over 100 k/year as an attending. I have passion for medicine!
It is essentially what she I s saying. But nah, she isn’t naive when it comes to the ins and outs of how medicine is run.
SMH.
 
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We wont ever come together. We could and it would be powerful but we NEVER will. I dont think we go to the 200s.. i think the floor for EM pay on average is around 180/hr. I think we will be back there in 5 years. That still gets you in the mid 300s.

Keep in mind the EM CMG /employed salary is based on only 1 thing. Literally 1 thing. Supply/demand.

If BB went thru and you were the only EM doc in the world you could demand quite the salary. CMGs will drive down pay simply because they can. Look at the Denver market. Huge supply.. fixed demand.. payer mix the same. Rates under the $180/hr.

Most current residents are beyond clueless. You have no leverage when you are married with a kid and have 300k+ in debt. You cant stand up for yourself. Your spouse says “I will only live in Denver”. It is what you promised me when I gave up my career for you to go to med school/residency.

So you toil away making 250k a year with your student loans accruing interest at 21k a year In a HCOL area. Yeah you arent standing up for anything. You shut your trap and go work for the “old gold chain” aka DBag and USACS.
I know CMG's are a large problem but some of these "democratic groups" with long no guarantee partnerships essentially act like mini CMG. I work for a large democratic group (midwest town about 250k not super desirable) that functions more like a small CMG (partnership was long 5 year process with multiple votes and conveniently quit being offered after I signed). Pay is 185/hr about 120hrs/month. Total package is about 275k a year. Two weekends a month and at least 1/2 the holidays. I normally see 3-5pph (some sites have mid level support), I saw 4.6pph two shifts ago with no midlevel. I am told that is what it takes to "keep the lights on". We used to have a midlevel at that site but "the volumes don't necessitate it" so they haven't been brought back since covid. Now keep in mind they spread these volumes out over 24hrs and say look its only 2.5hr ignoring the fact 2/3 of those came in during a 10hr period.

I had a family medicine resident rotating with me at one of the other sites and she told me she just signed for 240k a year. Pretty sad day for our speciality when I have to see over 4pph in order to only make a little more than a family physician.
 
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I know CMG's are a large problem but some of these "democratic groups" with long no guarantee partnerships essentially act like mini CMG. I work for a large democratic group (midwest town about 250k not super desirable) that functions more like a small CMG (partnership was long 5 year process with multiple votes and conveniently quit being offered after I signed). Pay is 185/hr about 120hrs/month. Total package is about 275k a year. Two weekends a month and at least 1/2 the holidays. I normally see 3-5pph (some sights have mid level support), I saw 4.6pph two shifts ago with no midlevel. I am told that is what it takes to "keep the lights on". We used to have a midlevel at that site but "the volumes don't necessitate it" so they haven't been brought back since covid. Now keep in mind they spread these volumes out over 24hrs and say look its only 2.5hr ignoring the fact 2/3 of those came in during a 10hr period.

I had a family medicine resident rotating with me and she told me she just signed for 240k a year. Pretty sad day for our speciality when I have to see over 4pph in order to only make a little more than a family physician.

Either your payor mix is terrible or the partners are getting PAID.
 
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Either your payor mix is terrible or the partners are getting PAID.
Even with a terrible payor mix, the partners are making a killing. National average is $150/pt. Assume your mix is abysmal and your professional services are only collecting 100/pt. At 3-5 pts/hr, that's 300-500/hr. If they pay 185/hr, they're making $115-$315/hr off of you, or perhaps more notably, 165.6k - 456.6k / year off of you. One can only assume that these partners have more than one non-partner getting f***** working for them which just adds a multiplier in front of that range. Why anyone would work in an ED seeing 3-5 pph for 185/hr is beyond me.
 
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I know CMG's are a large problem but some of these "democratic groups" with long no guarantee partnerships essentially act like mini CMG. I work for a large democratic group (midwest town about 250k not super desirable) that functions more like a small CMG (partnership was long 5 year process with multiple votes and conveniently quit being offered after I signed). Pay is 185/hr about 120hrs/month. Total package is about 275k a year. Two weekends a month and at least 1/2 the holidays. I normally see 3-5pph (some sights have mid level support), I saw 4.6pph two shifts ago with no midlevel. I am told that is what it takes to "keep the lights on". We used to have a midlevel at that site but "the volumes don't necessitate it" so they haven't been brought back since covid. Now keep in mind they spread these volumes out over 24hrs and say look its only 2.5hr ignoring the fact 2/3 of those came in during a 10hr period.

I had a family medicine resident rotating with me and she told me she just signed for 240k a year. Pretty sad day for our speciality when I have to see over 4pph in order to only make a little more than a family physician.

You need to quit immediately and blast this disgusting place. Not even about CMG or SDG at that point. Probably the worst job I've ever seen.
 
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I know CMG's are a large problem but some of these "democratic groups" with long no guarantee partnerships essentially act like mini CMG. I work for a large democratic group (midwest town about 250k not super desirable) that functions more like a small CMG (partnership was long 5 year process with multiple votes and conveniently quit being offered after I signed). Pay is 185/hr about 120hrs/month. Total package is about 275k a year. Two weekends a month and at least 1/2 the holidays. I normally see 3-5pph (some sights have mid level support), I saw 4.6pph two shifts ago with no midlevel. I am told that is what it takes to "keep the lights on". We used to have a midlevel at that site but "the volumes don't necessitate it" so they haven't been brought back since covid. Now keep in mind they spread these volumes out over 24hrs and say look its only 2.5hr ignoring the fact 2/3 of those came in during a 10hr period.

I had a family medicine resident rotating with me and she told me she just signed for 240k a year. Pretty sad day for our speciality when I have to see over 4pph in order to only make a little more than a family physician.

I can't imagine.
That's a really tough gig to be doing.
 
I know CMG's are a large problem but some of these "democratic groups" with long no guarantee partnerships essentially act like mini CMG. I work for a large democratic group (midwest town about 250k not super desirable) that functions more like a small CMG (partnership was long 5 year process with multiple votes and conveniently quit being offered after I signed). Pay is 185/hr about 120hrs/month. Total package is about 275k a year. Two weekends a month and at least 1/2 the holidays. I normally see 3-5pph (some sights have mid level support), I saw 4.6pph two shifts ago with no midlevel. I am told that is what it takes to "keep the lights on". We used to have a midlevel at that site but "the volumes don't necessitate it" so they haven't been brought back since covid. Now keep in mind they spread these volumes out over 24hrs and say look its only 2.5hr ignoring the fact 2/3 of those came in during a 10hr period.

I had a family medicine resident rotating with me and she told me she just signed for 240k a year. Pretty sad day for our speciality when I have to see over 4pph in order to only make a little more than a family physician.
Sadly, I also worked in those type jobs and started seeing it as a norm 2-3 yrs ago. Probably a small single coverage shop with a 12 hr NP/PA, open ICU where you cover codes, rapid response at night. Pay were 180-200/hr + RVU in Midwest. I also stomached an awful job for 140-170/hr in a large coastal city, great location. People put up with it because of suburb location
 
I know CMG's are a large problem but some of these "democratic groups" with long no guarantee partnerships essentially act like mini CMG. I work for a large democratic group (midwest town about 250k not super desirable) that functions more like a small CMG (partnership was long 5 year process with multiple votes and conveniently quit being offered after I signed). Pay is 185/hr about 120hrs/month. Total package is about 275k a year. Two weekends a month and at least 1/2 the holidays. I normally see 3-5pph (some sights have mid level support), I saw 4.6pph two shifts ago with no midlevel. I am told that is what it takes to "keep the lights on". We used to have a midlevel at that site but "the volumes don't necessitate it" so they haven't been brought back since covid. Now keep in mind they spread these volumes out over 24hrs and say look its only 2.5hr ignoring the fact 2/3 of those came in during a 10hr period.

I had a family medicine resident rotating with me and she told me she just signed for 240k a year. Pretty sad day for our speciality when I have to see over 4pph in order to only make a little more than a family physician.

I cannot fathom how one actually sees, puts in orders for, charts, and dispositions 4.6 patients per hour. All it takes is one crashing/sick patient to throw a wrench into the entire thing. That breakneck speed is simply not safe for the patients, you, or your license.

Incredible that EM has come to this.
 
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Sounds very much like a few of the large "SDGs" in Michigan.

New hires work at their rural hospitals seeing 3/hr for 160/hr salary.
 
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4.6 pph sounds nearly not doable or the acuity is so low its nonsense. I have said before there are bad sdgs. many are gone. How anyone would consider this job is insane. Keep in mind those profits mentioned by others don't even take into account the profit off of mlps.
 
Putting this here because it's very relevant to trends in EM compensation. I was Googling around out of curiosity since application season is alive and well. Did you know there are now 264 ACGME accredited programs for this current cycle? By comparison there were 147 in the 2009-2010 cycle, an 80% increase in 11 years, or 7.3% increase per year. Over the four years from 2014 to 2018, the number of total spots increased by 27.5%, or 6.9% per year.

Anesthesiology is often compared to EM. Between 2000 and 2019, the number of positions increased by 86.6%, or 4.6% per year. Sorry the years don't match perfectly with EM, I was lazy and this was what I easily found. Keep in mind, many do fellowships and exit from the general anesthesiology pool as well, unlike EM.

Internal Medicine gained 33.1% positions from 2012-2016, or 6.6% per year. Note that 43% of IM residents go on to do fellowships and exit from the general IM pool.

As others have stated, it will come down to simple supply and demand economics. The writing is on the wall, compensation will likely continue to go down if you are an employee (lack ownership). And it will go down at a faster rate than any specialty not expanding as fast as EM is. Are any expanding more right now? Life is definitely not all about the money and if you truly love EM, go for it. Just get used to sliding pay as it approaches general IM.
 
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I cannot fathom how one actually sees, puts in orders for, charts, and dispositions 4.6 patients per hour. All it takes is one crashing/sick patient to throw a wrench into the entire thing. That breakneck speed is simply not safe for the patients, you, or your license.

Incredible that EM has come to this.
That shift I had two NSTEMI's, one hyperkalemic acute renal failure, facial laceration, meningitis rule out I had to tap and some other older weaknesses mixed in with the usual abdominal pains and lower acuity patients. The partners are known to have made a killing in the past, but they are claiming that this year they aren't. Probably time to start job hunting.
 
That shift I had two NSTEMI's, one hyperkalemic acute renal failure, facial laceration, meningitis rule out I had to tap and some other older weaknesses mixed in with the usual abdominal pains and lower acuity patients. The partners are known to have made a killing in the past, but they are claiming that this year they aren't. Probably time to start job hunting.

Not an easy caseload. Please start browsing for a position which respects you more!
 
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That shift I had two NSTEMI's, one hyperkalemic acute renal failure, facial laceration, meningitis rule out I had to tap and some other older weaknesses mixed in with the usual abdominal pains and lower acuity patients. The partners are known to have made a killing in the past, but they are claiming that this year they aren't. Probably time to start job hunting.
How long until you make partner?
 
How long until you make partner?
After I signed they eliminated partner track, so I am just an employee. I wasn't told this until after I signed. They hired about 12 docs and are going after every contract they can. Of the 12 a decent amount signed before me and are on the pre-partnership track. They get paid even less per hour and have 5 years before they could be partner, with votes at 2 and 4 years. Not exactly a simple put your head down and grind for a year or two situation.
 
After I signed they eliminated partner track, so I am just an employee. I wasn't told this until after I signed. They hired about 12 docs and are going after every contract they can. Of the 12 a decent amount signed before me and are on the pre-partnership track. They get paid even less per hour and have 5 years before they could be partner, with votes at 2 and 4 years. Not exactly a simple put your head down and grind for a year or two situation.

I'm willing to bet that a few of those unwise enough to stick around to make "partner" find themselves being denied partnership because "we voted, and you didn't make it".

Seriously, SDGs... you're so often worse than the CMGs.
 
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After I signed they eliminated partner track, so I am just an employee. I wasn't told this until after I signed. They hired about 12 docs and are going after every contract they can. Of the 12 a decent amount signed before me and are on the pre-partnership track. They get paid even less per hour and have 5 years before they could be partner, with votes at 2 and 4 years. Not exactly a simple put your head down and grind for a year or two situation.
Oh boy.

This is predatory. Straight-up. 5 years of sweat equity? Changing the structure of your job after you signed the contract?

Get out of there.
 
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That’s why you ask questions when you interview for a job. Don’t sign a contract unless you get adequate answers to your questions and they are fairly codified in the contract or a policy manual. Here are a few important ones to ask:

1) How long is the partnership track?
2) How many have made partner out of those in the track in the past 5 years?
3) What are the criteria for determining partnership?
4) Have you discussed or do you anticipate any changes to the partnership track?
5) What is the difference in total compensation between prepartners and partners?
6) How long have you held the contract and how secure is it currently?

I’d take a SDG over a CMG any day, but you have to do your research. A 5 year track is a red flag.

I hear you; but after looking at 4 SDGs and seeing one of these red flags at each (or worse; knowing people who have left that SDG, then interviewing at same SDG and listening to the partners straight-up lie to me), I have near-zero faith left in SDGs.
 
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Yeah, greed is universal. It was disheartening to talk to a number of "SDGs" recently who were only hiring for employee-tract positions mainly working at freestandings or rural sites.
 
There's unfortunately still quite a few malignant SDGs out there who love to prey on new grads.

For example one of the SDGs in Phoenix was advertising partnership track positions at their hospitals but when you actually interviewed they stated they were only hiring employees to work at their freestandings with no defined pathway for partnership or revenue sharing of their profits.
 
There's unfortunately still quite a few malignant SDGs out there who love to prey on new grads.

For example one of the SDGs in Phoenix was advertising partnership track positions at their hospitals but when you actually interviewed they stated they were only hiring employees to work at their freestandings with no defined pathway for partnership or revenue sharing of their profits.

The SDGs know they can get away with this given the shortage of jobs. Why hire on more partners when you can just hire a bunch of servant employees who will work for a low rate and help bump up the partner bonus?
 
I hear you; but after looking at 4 SDGs and seeing one of these red flags at each (or worse; knowing people who have left that SDG, then interviewing at same SDG and listening to the partners straight-up lie to me), I have near-zero faith left in SDGs.

Sorry you’ve had such bad experiences with SDGs.

My take is slightly different after looking at several groups and then eventually landing in and spending the past 11 years in a unicorn group. Going in you know all CMGs are evil, so there’s not even any hope there. The rate limiting step for SDGs is that they are still made up of and run by people. And some people suck. The structure of an SDG provides an avenue for something better than CMGs. Having said that, history is awash with the theme that human beings can always f something up that should obviously be good. Simply calling yourself an SDG doesn’t make you a benign group.

My advice to anyone in the job search (not just this year but every year) is to cast a broad net, ask the right questions, and run like your hair is on fire from any group that has red flags or feels slimy in the interview process regardless of what they call themselves.
 
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After I signed they eliminated partner track, so I am just an employee. I wasn't told this until after I signed. They hired about 12 docs and are going after every contract they can. Of the 12 a decent amount signed before me and are on the pre-partnership track. They get paid even less per hour and have 5 years before they could be partner, with votes at 2 and 4 years. Not exactly a simple put your head down and grind for a year or two situation.

I am probably one of the more positive docs on here and I feel I am a realist. But 5 years for partnership track? That is downright unethical!!!!

Many years ago when we had a SDG, it was a 2 yr and almost everyone made partner unless you were truly the bottom 5%. I saw docs made partner that I just cringed.

So what is the point of 5 years other than having warm bodies to make $$$ for the partners? I can see 1 or 2 years to "prove" yourself b/c it is hard to get rid of a partner, but 5 years? And what is up with the 2 and 4 year vote? All this is comes down to a setup to string docs on while hanging the mythical partner carrot.

I am sorry to tell you this but you have probably the 2nd worse job I have ever seen. The worse being the dummies on the partnership track. Thank your lucky stars that you didn't sneak into the partnership track.
 
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There's unfortunately still quite a few malignant SDGs out there who love to prey on new grads.

For example one of the SDGs in Phoenix was advertising partnership track positions at their hospitals but when you actually interviewed they stated they were only hiring employees to work at their freestandings with no defined pathway for partnership or revenue sharing of their profits.
Empower the St Joes group.. they werent exactly the beacon of greatness before either. Very shady setup.
 
Even with a terrible payor mix, the partners are making a killing. National average is $150/pt. Assume your mix is abysmal and your professional services are only collecting 100/pt. At 3-5 pts/hr, that's 300-500/hr. If they pay 185/hr, they're making $115-$315/hr off of you, or perhaps more notably, 165.6k - 456.6k / year off of you. One can only assume that these partners have more than one non-partner getting f***** working for them which just adds a multiplier in front of that range. Why anyone would work in an ED seeing 3-5 pph for 185/hr is beyond me.
Is there a source for that 150/pt average? I’m trying to compare that to what I’m bringing in with a great payer mix.
 
Is there a source for that 150/pt average? I’m trying to compare that to what I’m bringing in with a great payer mix.

This $150/pt number is way dated IMO. We had a good payer mix 10 yrs ago in my SDG and we were getting maybe 125/pt.

Even in our FSER with our 90% commercial insurance population, we are not even 150/pt.
 
This $150/pt number is way dated IMO. We had a good payer mix 10 yrs ago in my SDG and we were getting maybe 125/pt.

Even in our FSER with our 90% commercial insurance population, we are not even 150/pt.
I suspect your difference comes from the fact that your data are either a decade old or that you're looking at a FSED which typically sees lower acuity patients. If you're not seeing any super sick patients and billing critical care, your average is obviously going to be lower.

If you do in fact see high acuity in your FSED, I don't know what to say. Maybe your payor mix or your insurance contracts are not as good as you think they are. Without being overly specific, I have direct knowledge of collections at several EDs in my general region, mine included. The ones in poorer areas tend to collect slightly under 150. Those in nicer areas collect more.

Again, whether the doc actually sees any of this money or if it's all siphoned off to DBags like the ones running USACS is entirely dependent on your employment model.
 
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I suspect your difference comes from the fact that your data are either a decade old or that you're looking at a FSED which typically sees lower acuity patients. If you're not seeing any super sick patients and billing critical care, your average is obviously going to be lower.

If you do in fact see high acuity in your FSED, I don't know what to say. Maybe your payor mix or your insurance contracts are not as good as you think they are. Without being overly specific, I have direct knowledge of collections at several EDs in my general region, mine included. The ones in poorer areas tend to collect slightly under 150. Those in nicer areas collect more.

Again, whether the doc actually sees any of this money or if it's all siphoned off to DBags like the ones running USACS is entirely dependent on your employment model.
100% agree. $150 is low. Even with a terrible payer mix of over 20% self pay and a bunch of medicaid it’s above that. Maybe the commercial contracts some groups have suck.
 
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100% agree. $150 is low. Even with a terrible payer mix of over 20% self pay and a bunch of medicaid it’s above that. Maybe the commercial contracts some groups have suck.

Or the groups may be in a state where one commercial insurer has a “legal” monopoly.
 
I'm willing to bet that a few of those unwise enough to stick around to make "partner" find themselves being denied partnership because "we voted, and you didn't make it".

Seriously, SDGs... you're so often worse than the CMGs.
This just happened someone passed their two year vote but was voted out after 4 years.
 
I personally know of too many people that this has happened to.

With the abundance of cheap labor, any SDGs would be stupid to take on partnership track people. Why dilute your own bonus pool when you have an endless supply of slave labor? If they are in a halfway decent area then it's easy.
 
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It’s such a huge bummer reading threads like this when you’re deciding between EM and an IM sub-specialty. EM is just looking worse and worse as a long term career choice for med students like me who are on the fence. I get the “if you love EM just do it”, but choosing a specialty is ultimately a career choice with all the financial benefits or headaches that this entails.
 
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I cannot fathom how one actually sees, puts in orders for, charts, and dispositions 4.6 patients per hour. All it takes is one crashing/sick patient to throw a wrench into the entire thing. That breakneck speed is simply not safe for the patients, you, or your license.

Incredible that EM has come to this.
They don't. It's called load of BS.
 
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It’s such a huge bummer reading threads like this when you’re deciding between EM and an IM sub-specialty. EM is just looking worse and worse as a long term career choice for med students like me who are on the fence. I get the “if you love EM just do it”, but choosing a specialty is ultimately a career choice with all the financial benefits or headaches that this entails.
Find the lifestyle and compensation you want, THEN find a specialty that falls under that umbrella where the day-to-day work is least miserable.
 
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