Trends in quality of DO psychiatry residency matches since merger?

[tinyhandsbob]

Hey all- I was curious if anyone else has noticed an improvement in the quality of psychiatry matches at your DO institution since the merger? I've been following the stats and the DO match rate into psych has gone up quite a bit this year (from low/mid 80s to low 90s), which is the highest it's ever been. Anecdotally and subjectively, the 'quality of psychiatry matches' (defined by me as proportion matching into an academic psych residency) seems to have improved at the few DO programs I've been following since 2018.

Interested in finding out if anyone else has noticed any such trends since the merger. This would make sense given that DOs are now in the same priority category with MD grads. Coincidentally, the FMG match rate into psychiatry has gone down recently (now in mid 30s), which also makes sense, given DO applicants are now being prioritized over FMGs.

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[AnatomyGrey12]

No I haven’t seen an increase in psych match quality at my school.

What gave you the impression that DOs are now in the same priority category as USMDs?

 

[Cath Up]

Hey all- I was curious if anyone else has noticed an improvement in the quality of psychiatry matches at your DO institution since the merger? I've been following the stats and the DO match rate into psych has gone up quite a bit this year (from low/mid 80s to low 90s), which is the highest it's ever been. Anecdotally and subjectively, the 'quality of psychiatry matches' (defined by me as proportion matching into an academic psych residency) seems to have improved at the few DO programs I've been following since 2018.

Interested in finding out if anyone else has noticed any such trends since the merger. This would make sense given that DOs are now in the same priority category with MD grads. Coincidentally, the FMG match rate into psychiatry has gone down recently (now in mid 30s), which also makes sense, given DO applicants are now being prioritized over FMGs.

Here is the 2019 and 2020 match data for DO seniors:

Here it is for (US) MD seniors:

Just to show the data you're referring to.

I think your conclusions are too optimistic. Re: "same priority category"- in 2019 + 2020, an MD with a 220-229 had a 94% chance of matching psych. A DO with a 220 had an 81% chance of matching psych. That's not consistent with being viewed equally.

From match lists that I have seen, there are still proportionally many more community programs on DO lists compared to MDs.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Hey all- I was curious if anyone else has noticed an improvement in the quality of psychiatry matches at your DO institution since the merger? I've been following the stats and the DO match rate into psych has gone up quite a bit this year (from low/mid 80s to low 90s), which is the highest it's ever been. Anecdotally and subjectively, the 'quality of psychiatry matches' (defined by me as proportion matching into an academic psych residency) seems to have improved at the few DO programs I've been following since 2018.

Interested in finding out if anyone else has noticed any such trends since the merger. This would make sense given that DOs are now in the same priority category with MD grads. Coincidentally, the FMG match rate into psychiatry has gone down recently (now in mid 30s), which also makes sense, given DO applicants are now being prioritized over FMGs.

I have anecdotally noticed this over the years for all specialties not just psych, the DO bias isn't against just the degree, its just that its harder for a DO to get the app to match at a top place in some specialties, but lately I have seen it many specialties, stuff like Vasc Surgery at Mayo, Rad Onc at mayo, Ortho at Monteifore, BCM IM,DR Psych, Peds, Optho at MCW and Loma Linda , IR at Dartmouth..etc.. this would be very very hard say like 15-20 years ago .. if the DO has the app for it they will get the interviews and overcome "bias", the person who matched at Loma Linda Optho said that what people usually amount to "DO bias" is more likely regional bias, DO schools tend to match better in their geographic location, or it is the sole fact that the DO candidates just don't have the overall app as the USMD, a step 1 score just isn't the only thing in an app, sure there might be a DO with like a 260/270 who gets snubbed by some top tier programs who would rather take a 245 or 250 USMD but deeper research would uncover the difference in the overall app, the DO prbly lacked in the quality of research, letters etc.. so is that bias? maybe, I think its just the fact that the USMD more than likely had the better overall app. Now in something like the very top tier IM it might be very real and you might have some really baller DO's getting snubbed by NYU or Harvard etc, but that person will still match just fine at a really good academic IM program though..

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Here is the 2019 and 2020 match data for DO seniors:
View attachment 327665
Here it is for (US) MD seniors:
View attachment 327669
Just to show the data you're referring to.

I think your conclusions are too optimistic. Re: "same priority category"- in 2019 + 2020, an MD with a 220-229 had a 94% chance of matching psych. A DO with a 220 had an 81% chance of matching psych. That's not consistent with being viewed equally.

From match lists that I have seen, there are still proportionally many more community programs on DO lists compared to MDs.

While I get what you are saying, this data does seem pretty odd though, i.e the DO senior match rate for a 210-220 Step 1 and even a 200-210 Step 1 is in the 90's(same as a 220 step 1 USMD) , while it takes a phantom dip for 220-239 to 81-82%, this means for psych the step 1 score prbly matters less then it does for other specialties.

 

[ciestar]

Keep in mind there has been one match since the merger

 

[Cath Up]

While I get what you are saying, this data does seem pretty odd though, i.e the DO senior match rate for a 210-220 Step 1 and even a 200-210 Step 1 is in the 90's(same as a 220 step 1 USMD) , while it takes a phantom dip for 220-239 to 81-82%, this means for psych the step 1 score prbly matters less then it does for other specialties.

Yes that's a fair thing to point out. I would attribute that to a very small sample size, where actual trends that represent the national pool of psych residencies are probably less likely to be represented. But that's speculation and the PD survey does show that psychiatry PDs say they prioritize plenty of other factors, as you mentioned.

 

[Cath Up]

Keep in mind there has been one match since the merger

Ha! I won't be stopped from baseless speculation and discussion merely due to a paucity of data! Historically, all of SDN is with me on this. Nice try...

 

[Ho0v-man]

No. This isn’t a thing. DOs are doing better because they’re becoming better applicants than they have been historically.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I have anecdotally noticed this over the years for all specialties not just psych, the DO bias isn't against just the degree, its just that its harder for a DO to get the app to match at a top place in some specialties, but lately I have seen it many specialties, stuff like Vasc Surgery at Mayo, Rad Onc at mayo, Ortho at Monteifore, BCM IM,DR Psych, Peds, Optho at MCW and Loma Linda , IR at Dartmouth..etc.. this would be very very hard say like 15-20 years ago .. if the DO has the app for it they will get the interviews and overcome "bias", the person who matched at Loma Linda Optho said that what people usually amount to "DO bias" is more likely regional bias, DO schools tend to match better in their geographic location, or it is the sole fact that the DO candidates just don't have the overall app as the USMD, a step 1 score just isn't the only thing in an app, sure there might be a DO with like a 260/270 who gets snubbed by some top tier programs who would rather take a 245 or 250 USMD but deeper research would uncover the difference in the overall app, the DO prbly lacked in the quality of research, letters etc.. so is that bias? maybe, I think its just the fact that the USMD more than likely had the better overall app. Now in something like the very top tier IM it might be very real and you might have some really baller DO's getting snubbed by NYU or Harvard etc, but that person will still match just fine at a really good academic IM program though..

There is DO bias. I have seen HarrisLaker argue this point before and I say he is incorrect in his assessment that there isn’t. Sure geography plays a role, as does the fact that DOs as a whole have less competitive applications, but the exact same app as an MD applicant will have much lower yield coming from a DO.

I personally know people who have interviewed at MD ortho, BCM IM, MD Derm, MD ENT this cycle and know their apps and they are getting way less quality interviews as a whole than MDs with lesser applications. I also know my own experience applying surgery this year, I am very happy with how things have gone but my cycle would be different if I were an MD. There just isn’t any denying it.

DOs have indeed matched better and better as the years have gone on, and I would argue that is merely a reflection of the average incoming DO student being much stronger academically than in the past.

 

[TwistedTea]

There is still a heavy DO bias, bias against lower tier MD schools, IMG, FMG, etc.

You can have almost nothing impressive on your app and be a from a top 25 med school and match at an excellent place. Don't take my word for it, just look around SDN. People with maybe a couple research experiences, step 1/2 <220, meh quartile, and an ivy league MD school getting T10 IM. The MCAT+ good GPA from undergrad honestly means more to your future than your step score, now even moreso since step 1 PF. Clinical skills? Nooone cares if you can function clinically if you are from a top program. Your in!

Of course one could say you have to have a good app to get T25 but most things we would not think to carry over to residency.. besides the research.

Its a mess but it is what it is play the game, not here to argue with it or change it, you just have to do it. When I was on the interview trail there were MD students with 50 points lower than i scored on my steps get invites to places I did not, without research or anything. It is what it is.

Mind you most of the T25 med students are probably great clinically, but just using as an example. Your med school can carry you a long way, or be the ball and chain your leg is tied to.

 

[Neopolymath]

Keep in mind there has been one match since the merger

And the merger isn't some on/off switch like gets perpetuated on here lol.

 

[Lawpy]

There is still a heavy DO bias, bias against lower tier MD schools, IMG, FMG, etc.

You can have almost nothing impressive on your app and be a from a top 25 med school and match at an excellent place. Don't take my word for it, just look around SDN. People with maybe a couple research experiences, step 1/2 <220, meh quartile, and an ivy league MD school getting T10 IM. The MCAT+ good GPA from undergrad honestly means more to your future than your step score, now even moreso since step 1 PF. Clinical skills? Nooone cares if you can function clinically if you are from a top program. Your in!

Of course one could say you have to have a good app to get T25 but most things we would not think to carry over to residency.. besides the research.

Its a mess but it is what it is play the game

What? Big stuff from college can carry over for residency apps at least? PDs are interested in even parttime jobs done to support yourself during college for example

 

[TwistedTea]

What? Big stuff from college can carry over for residency apps at least? PDs are interested in even parttime jobs done to support yourself during college for example

I was mostly talking about volunteer, shadowing, GPA, MCAT, and letters.

 

[Lawpy]

I was mostly talking about volunteer, shadowing, GPA, MCAT, and letters.

Depends on what volunteering. Letters can carry over if it's research.

 

[TwistedTea]

Depends on what volunteering. Letters can carry over if it's research.

Most things

 

[DameJulie]

Most OMS-3s and 4s did their psych rotation virtually or away from their core sites, and are fairly pessimistic about matching psych because of the varied quality of experience they got from it and unable to do away rotations. How can future classes learn from this lesson?

 

[TwistedTea]

Most OMS-3s and 4s did their psych rotation virtually or away from their core sites, and are fairly pessimistic about matching psych because of the varied quality of experience they got from it and unable to do away rotations. How can future classes learn from this lesson?

What lession is there to be learned exactly? Hopefully applicants wont have that mess to deal with next year. They just need to do what they can to get letters from networking somehow.

 

[Cath Up]

There is still a heavy DO bias, bias against lower tier MD schools, IMG, FMG, etc.

You can have almost nothing impressive on your app and be a from a top 25 med school and match at an excellent place. Don't take my word for it, just look around SDN. People with maybe a couple research experiences, step 1/2 <220, meh quartile, and an ivy league MD school getting T10 IM. The MCAT+ good GPA from undergrad honestly means more to your future than your step score, now even moreso since step 1 PF. Clinical skills? Nooone cares if you can function clinically if you are from a top program. Your in!

Of course one could say you have to have a good app to get T25 but most things we would not think to carry over to residency.. besides the research.

Its a mess but it is what it is play the game, not here to argue with it or change it, you just have to do it. When I was on the interview trail there were MD students with 50 points lower than i scored on my steps get invites to places I did not, without research or anything. It is what it is.

Mind you most of the T25 med students are probably great clinically, but just using as an example. Your med school can carry you a long way, or be the ball and chain your leg is tied to.

I know a student from a T10 school that matched to a separate T10 peds program. With a ~15th percentile step 1.

 

[Lawpy]

I know a student from a T10 school that matched to a separate T10 peds program. With a ~15th percentile step 1.

That's pretty common. Top schools are the real winners from P/F Step

 

[TwistedTea]

That's pretty common. Top schools are the real winners from P/F Step

Hence why they want it PF. More power to them.
No conflict of interest at all.

 

[tinyhandsbob]

Here is the 2019 and 2020 match data for DO seniors:
View attachment 327665
Here it is for (US) MD seniors:
View attachment 327669
Just to show the data you're referring to.

I think your conclusions are too optimistic. Re: "same priority category"- in 2019 + 2020, an MD with a 220-229 had a 94% chance of matching psych. A DO with a 220 had an 81% chance of matching psych. That's not consistent with being viewed equally.

From match lists that I have seen, there are still proportionally many more community programs on DO lists compared to MDs.

I was not trying to say that MD and DOs are viewed the same in the match. I don't think that's the case. My comment was more about comparing how DOs are comparing with themselves from a few years back. Alas, it seems the anecdotal experiences are mixed.

Regarding the actual data, I went back to play with the data a bit more after I saw your charts and interestingly, the difference in PSYCH match rate between DO and MD seniors is not that big depending on which data you look at. If you look at the USMLE baseline data and compare 2020 US DO seniors to 2020 US MD seniors PSYCH match rate- the difference seems to be small (based on the grey average line the DO match % actually seems higher). It's interesting that if you compare using the COMLEX baseline data , the difference is greater (DO seems to do slightly worse compared to MD when using the COMLEX data as baseline for DOs and the USMLE for MDs, although this comparison may have some issues).

The similarity in match % seems to hold even when you look at 2019 & 2020 combined and when you add in Prior DO & MD grads (ppl who didn't match first time). For 2019, there was actually a higher match rate for US DO seniors than US MD seniors into psych based on the USMLE baseline.

Charts for the USMLE baseline data for 2020 MD/DO seniors matching into Psych attached.

 

[cjcarter]

We had some excellent matches last year at my school. And I interviewed at several great academic programs this cycle. So I will be curious to see how the match pans out for me and my fellow classmates applying psych.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

We had some excellent matches last year at my school. And I interviewed at several great academic programs this cycle. So I will be curious to see how the match pans out for me and my fellow classmates applying psych.

are you a DO?

 

[cjcarter]

are you a DO?

Yep!

 

[samac]

The only thing I’ll say that may make match lists seem better with the 1 match is people aren’t matching in the DO match and pulled out of the ACGME match. This gives the opportunity for more DOs to match at a psych program that they may have missed out on otherwise.
psych has always been relatively DO friendly. as a speciality I think it’s one of the select few the merger will not hurt us in the long run.

 

[tinyhandsbob]

We had some excellent matches last year at my school. And I interviewed at several great academic programs this cycle. So I will be curious to see how the match pans out for me and my fellow classmates applying psych.

What part of the country is your school in?

 

[cjcarter]

What part of the country is your school in?

Midwest

 

[tinyhandsbob]

Midwest

Thanks! Do you attribute the good recent matches with the merger or something else?

 

[djiboutiman]

Looking through my school's (also midwest) match data in the last 10 years, I think the quality has been about the same. A good mixture of university and community programs with a smattering of standouts (Mayo, Cleveland Clinic). The one thing that has changed over time is recently most of our graduates ended up matching in the local region, whereas 10 years ago they were able to match into programs around the country.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Looking through my school's (also midwest) match data in the last 10 years, I think the quality has been about the same. A good mixture of university and community programs with a smattering of standouts (Mayo, Cleveland Clinic). The one thing that has changed over time is recently most of our graduates ended up matching in the local region, whereas 10 years ago they were able to match into programs around the country.

The last part prbly has a lot to do with people wanting to stay close to home...

 

[LimpSpatula]

The last part prbly has a lot to do with people wanting to stay close to home...

Psychiatry is super competitive now. Usually DO schools are not near big academic centers and tend to have community programs around them. I’d venture to guess it’s harder for DOs after the merger like any other residency right now. Step 1 going to P/F is also going to screw DOs because it’s going to automatically put them in separate baskets.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Psychiatry is super competitive now. Usually DO schools are not near big academic centers and tend to have community programs around them. I’d venture to guess it’s harder for DOs after the merger like any other residency right now. Step 1 going to P/F is also going to screw DOs because it’s going to automatically put them in separate baskets.

Psychiatry and competitive should never be in the same sentence. Also you are very much wrong, just look at the match lists, most of the DO matches are at big academic centers(BCM, UNC, Wake Forest, UT dell, UF, LSU etc). Almost all of the psych matches from my school in the past few years have been at big academic centers. Also step 1 going P/F will have very little impact on psych matching, since psychiatry cared very little about step 1 scores to begin with. The average step 1 a couple years ago was like 217. Psych cared more about other stuff and “fit”. I don’t think DO’s will be screwed by any means especially not in psych. The competitive specialties it will put the onus on students to do research and crush aways/clerkships and do well on step 2 with step 1 being p/f but psych not soo much..:

 

[MICKY MANTLE]

Psychiatry is super competitive now. Usually DO schools are not near big academic centers and tend to have community programs around them. I’d venture to guess it’s harder for DOs after the merger like any other residency right now. Step 1 going to P/F is also going to screw DOs because it’s going to automatically put them in separate baskets.

Psychiatry is not "super" competitive...... Super competitive = Neurosurgery, ophthalmology, plastic surgery, orthopedics, etc.