Trends

[busupshot83]

Have you guys heard about Minnesota and Arkansas thinking about allowing foreign trained dentist to work there without any further schooling?

Do you think that this trend will catch on to other states?

Yeah, yeah. I know that this has to do with International Dentistry, but that section of the forums is dead; no one every responds.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[aphistis]

As long as they can pass the licensure exam...why not?

 

[busupshot83]

I think this is a wonderful idea: if foreign professionals can ease shortage problems, why stop them? It is ******ed to do so.

 

[PDPjester]

If this is true, then it is very controversial because many countries in Europe and Asia awards BDS (a bachelor of dental surgery) because the program starts right after high school, and it's 6 years long. (I think we are the only one in the world that has dental and medical program as absolute graduate programs, another reason why US is the top in these fields.) Thus foreign trained dentists have two years less education than a normal DDS or DMD from US.

But then again, US dental schools are allowed to accept applicants (I don't know how many they accept every year) but as long as the student has completed pre-dental and two years of college, they are allowed to apply. If these kids get accepted then the forgein BDS's can argue that they have the same educational level as US educated DDS, which is both true and not true.

So then the question becomes - should these forgeign trained dentist be awarded a DDS without two more years of education or do they just practice with their BDS? I hope the latter. And what do we do with the US dentists without four year collegiate degree, do we give them BDS too? probably not. IMO , we should not lower our standards but keep on improving them, while trying to solve the dental shortage problems in US, which is probably LESS than the countries that these dentist are coming from. Thus, this issue don't really stand a chance once the US dentistl fight for higher standards in US. Don't you agree?

 

[FMLizard]

Jesus Almighty, please let this be just another Internet rumor...

My worst nightmare come true. Cheap, foreign dentists rolling into the state in which I want to attend dental school and practice in the future.

There is not a dental shortage in many areas of America. Most foreign dentists won't choose to practice in the underserved areas anyway. The majority of these communities, such as those in MN and AR, are very small, rural, and at least in the case of Minnesota, almost entirely white. In communities like these, foreign dentists will struggle for acceptance from a town that has been going to the same dentist or family of dentists for generations. It happens in my hometown, and is even more rampant in smaller towns.

A far smarter tactic would be to actively recruit small town and rural dental students. These people are FAR more likely, as I will be, to practice in underserved areas in the future. Unfortunately, in most cases, these rural students are white, and their demographic and background are completely ignored, even when a school is trying to better serve underserved areas.

The US doesn't need to open the floodgates to the world every time there is a perceived temporary shortage of labor. Business will adapt, and the distribution will even out as more dentists head to the country for less competition and higher incomes.

 

[mcataz]

There are rumors that always circulate. Most of the time, they are simply rumors. I still remember the rumor that psychologists were going to be given the power to prescribe drugs, a power limited to psychiatrists. Mind you, this was 10 years ago that I heard this. Nothing has changed.

It won't happen. Here is why. General dentists can practice without undergoing a residency. Foreign medical graduates must still participate in a U.S. residency even if they have completed one overseas. So foreign medical graduates are still trained according to the manner medicine is practiced in the United States. But with dentistry, if foreign dentists were to begin work immediately, they wouldn't be exposed to any form of American training. Thus foreign dentists are not allowed to practice here without undergoing at least 2 years of dental school so that they can have some clinical exposure.

Besides, I don't think the power rests with the states? I'm not sure who authorizes who to practice dentistry in the United States.

 

[logistical99]

Originally posted by busupshot83
I think this is a wonderful idea: if foreign professionals can ease shortage problems, why stop them? It is ******ed to do so.

As of this writing, the US has between an adequate to an oversupply of dentists. Since the last half of the 20th century, the US never had a shortage of dentists.

Nevertheless, the flood of foreign dentists into the US has already happened, in California. As a result, Cali now has the largest dentist to population ratio and a good number of Cali dentists now gross out at 50k - 75k annually ( which is low ). The excessive supply of dentists in Cali has made its state dental licensure exam difficult to pass.

The influx of foreign dentists will result in dentistry following the footsteps of the once-prominent engineering and computer science profession.

 

[zazzookode]

Logistical, you are simply a ***** who states his irrational fears as fact. Unlike the computer science professionals, you can't just hop off a plane from India and start working at Microsoft. YOu have to actually attend dental school here first. That's a huge deterrant because it means most people will have to spend 50-100 K just getting educated for 2 years. Try telling some poor schmo from India that he has to come here and then go into additional debt and school. You think someone wants to go through the torture of dental school all over again. It's not like he can take the USMLE and start working as a resident in medicine. You might want to know the facts before you become unnecessarily paranoid. And not everyone wants to live in CA. There are 50 states in the United States. CA makes up one of them. Would it kill someone to work in a hick town in Mississppi and make half a million a year being the sole dentist of the town. No, it wouldn't. I don't know of any computer programmer who has that option.

 

[redicon1]

dude, you have the most ridiculous alarmist tendencies. And wrong facts to back it up. Most of the doctors practicing in rural, underserved areas are foreign FMG's. Go get yr facts straight. THERE is a dental shortage in AMerica contrary to what you state. Read the Surgeon General's Report on the 'silent oral epidemic.'
Thank god ppl like you are not making public health decisions. Would you rather have thousands of young kids develop serious oral problems while waiting for the dental schools to churn out more grads? I am going to a dental school in the US btu I will welcome any adequately trained foreign dentist in my area or state coz what matters to me that people get care, not some jingoistic belief that we will be innundated with cheap labor.
and by the way, no amount of protection is gonna save you coz the market determines the better dentists from the avg ones.

Originally posted by FMLizard
Jesus Almighty, please let this be just another Internet rumor...

My worst nightmare come true. Cheap, foreign dentists rolling into the state in which I want to attend dental school and practice in the future.

There is not a dental shortage in many areas of America. Most foreign dentists won't choose to practice in the underserved areas anyway. The majority of these communities, such as those in MN and AR, are very small, rural, and at least in the case of Minnesota, almost entirely white. In communities like these, foreign dentists will struggle for acceptance from a town that has been going to the same dentist or family of dentists for generations. It happens in my hometown, and is even more rampant in smaller towns.

A far smarter tactic would be to actively recruit small town and rural dental students. These people are FAR more likely, as I will be, to practice in underserved areas in the future. Unfortunately, in most cases, these rural students are white, and their demographic and background are completely ignored, even when a school is trying to better serve underserved areas.

The US doesn't need to open the floodgates to the world every time there is a perceived temporary shortage of labor. Business will adapt, and the distribution will even out as more dentists head to the country for less competition and higher incomes.

 

[busupshot83]

Sounds like this convo is heatin up .

As for this statement: "Thus foreign trained dentists have two years less education than a normal DDS or DMD from US." True, the US has high quality dentist, but I think that having "2 or more education years" does not make a dentist. I am confident that there are many better dentists abroad in other countries than there are in the US. Yeah, the US may whip everyone with their technology, but I'm just talking about skills. Respond at will.

 

[PDPjester]

dear busupshot83,

You have a good point about the "2 extra years of education" that US students have, and i understand that these two years won't make a better skilled dentist. HOWEVER, if dentistry was only about using your hand skills, then we would only require to study the latter two years of dental program and forget the first two years because they don't really matter. But you know this is not true. Hence my point - the US trained students have extra two years education outside of dentistry (usually biochemistry, zoology, biology, english, history, whatever... for my case biomechanics) and you're right, these won't make better dentist but more well rounded dentists. And more well rounded dentist is more desirable, isn't? IT IS because you can draw more knowledge from other areas of background to make a better decision and ethics.

Also having more education in other areas as well as more education in dentistry (even tho it's only two years) can make a huge difference and bring better developments and technolgy. You say like technology doesn't matter to the field of dentistry, but it really does matter. Look at the field of Implant Dentistry for instance, such technology requires collaboration of many professionals, including dentistry who can speak only his language but also speak other languages (ie engineers, medical researchers, historians, and ect...)

But I say you're right again because such case is not always for everyone and some peeps might not want to deal with such stuff. Just train for dentistry and do that for rest of your life. But i'm saying (or was saying in my previous post) that US trained dentist are better educated, thus not same as forgein trained dentist.

That's the difference between US and non-US education. This is not only for dentist, but also for medicine and PhD programs as well. No other countries put more money and resources into education than the US. it's just that people like FMLizards (and everyone who lives in his town) don't know how to make full use of them and complain all the time. Other countries can't do it becuase it's not that they don't have smart people, it's just that they just don't have the money to allocate it to education. Do you think other countries have educational loans for everyone for college education like in the US? or for dental school? maybe some do, but not really. It's more like few get scholarships from private companies or two or three top students get national scholarships, but they don't have federal loans like we do here in US. That's why everyone wants to come to US. who wouldn't want to get free education or pay off it later. In other countries, even though you have the ability you are not given the chance if you don't got the money. Here, as long as you have the desire you can put your feet in the door, but better if you have the ability too and these are the people who really succeed. Just because the stage is set, it doesn't matter if we just linger. We need people who will get up and take such opportunities!

I'm going off the topic now, so i'll stop here.

 

[dentalvibe8881]

If the U.S. started accepted foreign trained dentists without any formal U.S. education, guess what that would do, create American dental schools of the Carribean.

In case you don't know, there are foreign medical schools that accept U.S. citizens into their program. For example, St. George, Ross and AUC are a few of the Carribean medical schools that accept mostly U.S. citizens who couldn'get accepted into a U.S. medical school. There are also schools in Guadalajara, Mexico, Poland and Hungary that do the same thing. St. George is fairly reputable but the other schools accept everyone. There are people that have 2.3 GPA's that get accepted into AUC without having to do post-bac work or grad work to make up for their low GPA's. Many of these schools don't even mandate the MCAT.

If they allowed foreign trained dentists to start working in the U.S. right away, you would see the emergence of these diploma mills. You would have slackers who never studied getting into these schools and then graduating and working here. Also, let me remind you that these candidates would be U.S. citizens. These aren't some naive and desperate immigrant who would be willing to work in the rural areas of the U.S. These people would be "city folk" who would want to work in the large cities as soon as their degrees are completed. You think some frat boy slacker from Chicago is going to want to work in Arkansas after he gets his foreign dental degree? Hell no!

Also, the FMG example is really a poor one, because FMG's are trained in the U.S. during their residency. They have attendings and senior residents who instruct them in the ways of modern American medicine. Contrary to some popular belief, FMG's don't just come here and start practicing. They are required to endure a formal U.S. residency/training. Dentistry is different. General dentists can practice without residency. And thus these foreign trained dentists could come and practice without enduring a residency. I'm not suggesting that their training is inverior, but it is different. And they need to learn our method of dentistry if they are going to practice here. I don't think asking them to do 1-2 years of dental school is a lot. If a FMG physician has to endure 3-6 years of residency, then why can't some foreign dentist endure 2 years of dental school. That's not asking for a lot.

 

[busupshot83]

good points guys

 

[FMLizard]

With the current proposal, there would be NO barriers to entry for foreign dentists. There will be no 2 years of additional schooling, no debt at all. Worse yet, since most dentists are sole practitioners, they wouldn't even need a company to sponsor a visa. All it would take is a plane ticket and a test. Those who say there are barriers to entry are correct about the current system, which allows only a small trickle of foreigners in, and forces them to undergo extra schooling. However, in this hypothetical example, it DOES become like programming or manufacturing.

The problem isn't a few "FDGs" entering the U.S. If it were to be well regulated and limited to a small number practicing solely in areas of high need, such as designated shortage areas and places where the foreigners possessed skills that few or no Americans possessed, such as language skills, it would be great. The problem is, as DentalVibe alluded to, exploitation of the rules. If you pass the law for the purpose of helping the underserved, with nothing but blind hope that foreigners will all work with these people, it WILL be taken advantage of. To think anything else is just being naive for the sake of being PC.

Think HMOs trucking in FDGs with no school loans and who may not even pay taxes by the thousands to break down the ADA and get further penetration of managed care.

Think offshore dental schools and diploma mills set up in foreign countries for the sake of pumping in loosely regulated practitioners.

Think about the cut of your bottom line and patient base that each new competitor in a marketplace will take.

Think about the loss of reputation and prestige for the profession, and the public's loss of confidence in dentistry when they hear about a dramatic relaxation of standards.


I am not saying that we would be instantly swamped with a million new dentists tomorrow. However, it is quite feasible to estimate anywhere from 10-50,000 would enter in the next ten years. This would take a huge bite from all of our incomes, no matter how skilled, and would flat out put many out of business.

 

[FMLizard]

Originally posted by dentalvibe8881
You think some frat boy slacker from Chicago is going to want to work in Arkansas after he gets his foreign dental degree? Hell no!

Actually, at most schools, including mine, Greeks have GPAs that exceed that of the school at large. My chapter has a GPA well in excess of the all-University average, and over a 3.0. We have mandatory study hours in addition to being one of the best party houses on campus.

Otherwise, good points. I concur.