True value of D.O vs. M.D

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by hippuppy, Apr 20, 2000.

  1. hippuppy

    hippuppy Member

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    First of all, I am a college student, just took the MCAT and am planning on attending a D.O. school somewhere next year so I am by no means an educated individual on D.O. practices. My question is simply, why would you choose D.O. over M.D.? From the little bit of knowledge that I have aquired, Osteopathic Medicine appears to focus more on the entire patient and how their environment may be causing their medical problems. I grew up in a household where the less medical visits, the better. As a matter of fact, we often used homeopthy to treat colds, etc. I guess that I am concerned about the growing state of DO's. The allopathic board appears to be filled with less negativity yet I have read numerous posts here that almost make me feel like I am making a mistake by wanting to persue DO. Someone please enlighten me to the true joy of being a DO and how it plays a role in healing the patient, better and faster.
    Thanks
     
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  3. mj

    mj Senior Member

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    I'm curious, why would you make a major life decision with only having "a little" information?

    Translation: Tell me what I want to hear so I can feel better about my decision.

    Interesting approach to solving a dilemma [​IMG]

    mj
     
  4. ewagner

    ewagner Senior Member

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    #1, if hippuppy is asking for help, don't be an ass by making he/she look and feel stupid. Alrighty mj?

    Hippuppy, I chose DO over MD because I wanted to go into orthopedics or rehab medicine. I was already a PT, so I new the benefits of rehab...I just felt that I needed to know about manipulation if I was to ever refer to one who practices manipulation. I also wanted to enhance my efficiency in case management and be more exact and critical in my referrals to rehab.
    True, I have been critical of OMT and OPP in general, because I see so many "hardliners" who "think " they are wholistic in their care , yet they forget the importance of pt education, exercise and stabilization, and posture and movement re-education. OMT tends to be a "lets teach them a bunch of old techniques" class, as apposed to "lets develope the most efficient way to treat disorders of the musculoskeletal system" like it should be!
    THe result is a group of young student with NO IDEA of how to efficiently treat back, neck, peripheral joint, or hip pain. They have a hodge-podge of approaches with ZERO protocols or algorithms to guide them!!!
    As a whole, my education at UHS has been worthwhile and intense. My fellow students are intelligent and trustworthy. And I must thank the DO profession on accepting me into their brotherhood. I just think that certain ideologies can be left behind for more helpful and efficient efforts in rehabilitation. Yes , I come in with a biased outlook (from my prior experience), but I see that as constructive criticism to a profession fighting for its place in medicine.
    e
     
  5. hippuppy

    hippuppy Member

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    Thanks MJ for proving to me that there are people out there who, for the love of it, pride themselves on being an ass. Next time, try to be more constructive.
    B
     
  6. mj

    mj Senior Member

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    I?m not being an ass and hippuppy is not asking for help.

    Hipppuppy comes to this board stating he/she has already made a decision: ??am planning on attending a D.O. school somewhere next year?, one he admittedly has done without researching as he states: ?little bit of knowledge that I have acquired?.

    He didn?t say he was thinking about, curious about it, seeking more info about it. He said he?s PLANNING ON IT.

    I don?t think we are doing anyone any favors by reinforcing a decision that isn?t that well thought out. I stand by my statement ? I am curious why someone would make a major life decision with only having a little information.

    Hippuppy then goes on to say that he/she is starting to worry about that decision and wants people here to make them feel better: ?Someone please enlighten me to the true joy of being a DO and how it plays a role in healing the patient, better and faster.?

    That statement is HUGELY slanted and in no way indicative that hippuppy is interested in anything constructive that doesn?t fit the impression already formulated based on the ?little information? obtained.

    Had hippuppy come saying ?I thought about this choice, put a lot of effort and thought into it, thought I had a solid decision and now I?m confused by the mixed messages I?m receiving. What?s reality?? I would be more inclined to agree hippuppy was seeking help. IMHO all hippuppy wants is to hear what they already believe to be true based on ?a little information?.

    I?m sorry if that offends you, that?s not my intent. However, I don?t think we would be doing you any favors by supporting your quest for biased information.

    If you really want to, you will always find people who will tell you what you want to hear. My advice to you would be to question why you are so darn eager to hear it!

    Was that constructive enough for ya?

    mj
     
  7. ewagner

    ewagner Senior Member

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    What is your deal? who pissed in your cornflakes?

    So, hippuppy didn't phrase something the way "you would have", I think the intention was clear regardless. You are treating this person with smugness far outweighing what he/she may deserve for a error in style.
     
  8. mj

    mj Senior Member

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    My cornflakes are just fine. I simply disagree with you. I don?t think the intention was clear. Based on the original post, I really think hippuppy isn?t seeking honest opinions to his question. There is no smugness intended. If I've misunderstood something, I can't wait for hippuppy to clear that up for me. I think my questions are fair: Why have you made a decision based only on a little information and why are you so eager to hear things that validate that decision instead of seeking answers from a more objective standpoint?

    e - Why are you treating me with ?smugness far outweighing what he/she may deserve? because you don?t like MY style, because I didn?t phrase my objections ?the way you would have"?
    mj
     
  9. RockyMan

    RockyMan Member

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    ewagner makes a good point about DO education, one that reflects my own experience and has been told to me before by other PT's who went to osteopathic medical schools. At DO schools I am familiar with, the OTM education includes tons of procedures, but very little training is given for real-world practice: no guiding protocolsor algorhythms, nothing on pt education, exercise or stabilization, etc. For students who had hoped to improve their physical diagnostic skills and use them often in their medical practices, it was EXTREMELY frustrating and discouraging. I would STRONGLY urge hippuppy, before he/she commits to a DO education, to put in a lot of work and evaluate the OTM courses at the different schools, to find out if any of them actually integrate medical knowledge and techniques from rehabilitation, physical and occupational therapy. None of the OTM courses I know about do this.

    ------------------
    Question Authority & Overturn Dogma
     
  10. hippuppy

    hippuppy Member

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    Hang on a second here. Things are getting out of hand. Here it goes. I made the decision to persue medicine right before attending college thinking that Allopathic was the only route to take. I am applying to both Allopathic and Osteopathic schools with the bottom line of being able to help people. Both routes will allow me to do this. I am interested in the Osteopathic route because OMT appears to be one more way to aid the body in healing itself. I am sorry if I came across as a little ignorant. I am not looking for what I want to hear. If you are second guessing yourself because you selected DO over MD, please let me know why. If you are very happy about your decision to select DO, please let me know why. I am simply testing the waters here. MJ, don't be so critical.

    [This message has been edited by hippuppy (edited 04-21-2000).]
     
  11. mj

    mj Senior Member

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    ?Don?t be so critical?. Why? I read your response that included the jab about ?don?t waist your time criticizing your writing style? before you edited it and I?m glad you took it out, because my issue wasn?t style. It was the facts you presented: ?I?m planning on going to a DO school? and ?Someone confirm DOs heal better and faster?, when in reality you are applying to both MD and DO and when you are really interested in hearing anything anyone has to offer on the topic. ?Criticism? led to a better understanding of where you are coming from. I doubt I?m the only one on the planet that took your first post the way I did. Now all those people understand better and can answer you better. If I am the only one who didn?t get it, I hope you find value in being understood by even one more person.

    If your first response was as honest and informative as your last, instead of calling me an ass, things probably wouldn?t have gotten so ?out of hand?. I didn?t call you names, I didn?t say you were stupid, that your mother wears combat boots or that I think you are a lousy human being. I said ?I?m confused? by what you?ve presented and that it seems to be an interesting way to solve a dilemma. Your response was a verbal attack on my character. That?s a pretty interesting way of ?testing waters?. If you can?t handle people questioning where you are coming from on something, I doubt you will find a lot of happiness with this board.

    That being said, from what I?ve seen in my short time here, you will get as many positive answers as negative. The message continually is that schools are so different it is hard to generalize and each person?s experience even at the same school can be greatly different. Over the past few months reading here I think I come a way with two things that might help you:

    1. Med school, like anything else, is a place where you get what you give. No school is perfect and to overcome those perfections takes awareness and work on your part if that imperfect area is important to you. You have the potential to become a good doctor at any school you go to, MD or DO.

    2. I?m well grounded in the ?any school that will take me? philosophy, as I assume you are too. If you magically hit pre med nirvana and get accepted to ten schools, the school you ultimately choose to go to, though, probably will not be based as much on MD vs. DO philosophy as on how you felt when you were there: does it ?fit? on all the levels, from cultural, to economic, to academic approach, to clinical opportunities, to location, to board scores, to specialty interest, to student body make up and probably 100 other things.

    Here?s one for you, questions I?ve been asking myself: even if all the negative stuff people say about DO programs is true, if you only got into a DO program would you turn it down? If you got into both an MD and a DO, would you choose based on oganizational philosophy or factors indigenous to each school?

    Good luck with your search.
    mj
     
  12. Detroit Rock City

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    MJ
    I'm with you on this one, but I have a ?. You mentioned in your last post that you apply to both and you go wherever they take you. Did you do that? Was the DO degree a choice or a matter of circumstance?
     
  13. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member

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    LOL.........LOL..........ROFLMAO....

    welcome to the dark side, luke......
     
  14. guylon07

    guylon07 Member

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    Hippuppy,
    The plan to attend D.O. school is a good one. Let me say from experience that D.O.'s are highly respected, and have an excellent reputation, for the most part. I am going to be attending D.O. school this fall, and I am looking forward to it. I have been a nurse for several years, and I have worked with both D.O.s and M.D.'s. There has never been any doubt in my mind, after working with both, about going to an osteopathic program. Although you could not tell it from many of these postings, D.O.s seem to have a compassion for patients that you do not normally see in their allopathic counterparts. Another positive aspect, as you mentioned, is OMT. As a D.O. you have an extra tool in your belt to treat patients with, and patients love it. Pts. like OMT becuause, they are actually feeling something being done to them. I hope you decide to go with the osteopathic program. Don't pay any attention to mj, because there is always a smart%[email protected] in the bunch. Oh well, good luck in your endeavors.
     
  15. Moon

    Moon Member

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    I just wonder when did the game "quotation and criticizing" start. Is it the new trend of how you post your thought at this forum?
     
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  17. Future DOc

    Future DOc Senior Member

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    I have applied to both programs & have been accepted to both as well. I chose DO & although I feel a lot of times the intensity of enduring the DO curriculum, I have had no regrets.

    My advice is don't worry about too much about the so-called "stigma" that some people say about DOs. If being a DO is something that interest you, by all means go for it! Whatever you do, a doctor is a doctor nonetheless....regardless is you are a DO or MD. Good luck to you!!! [​IMG]

    Rob
    WesternU/COMP MS II

     
  18. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member

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    Quick everyone post something before they close this thread.........LOL

    Hip.....Do a lot of research and don't make any final decisions until you have done all your research. MJ is right in critiquing your first post, because you on the one hand state you are planning to go DO, and then seem to be saying you know nothing about it.
    So, this flame war that has been going on is a REACTION by REACTIONARIES to the honest critique of your posting without personal attack...This is really why you see so many negative postings here, people seem to lack critical reading skills and introspection, thus they ATTACK personally anyone that IS able to apply critical reading and introspection, or who is trying to IMPROVE medical education, and the sad part is they don't even realize that its their own deficiencies they are exposing by their personal insults

    Ewag does brings up some good points regarding the way OMM is presented at some places and the problem mostly is with the institutions not properly melding the manipulative medicine with the clinical medicine...i dont want to go to far into the politics on this one, but i will allude to the fact that there are STRONG political reasons why this is the way it is.

    (Whisper)Now remember as long as THREE Of us are talking maybe they will keep this thread open.

    Last but not least, Ewag...i appreciate your posting for its informational content vis a vis OMM/DO training, But i fail to see any usefulness to personal attacks as they make you seem less of a professional despite what the other party is doing, you make very cogent arguments with sound educational logic but then you lower yourself to the same level you presume the other person to be at by getting personal, you seem more intelligent than the average flame poster, so its with respect that i present this constructively.
    Having said that, if you can't see the points MJ was making, you are missing a lot of information that applies directly to the WHY of your personal complaint with how OMM is presented...look for degradative processes to involve positive feedback loops, they almost always do. IN FACT, a lot of your complaints are due to people taking a stance similar to the one you took on a previous forum. The mindset for change you are crying for here is the very one you were attacking in the other forum, and that is confusing me a bit, could you clarify?
     
  19. hippuppy

    hippuppy Member

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    Hey, thanks for the responses, everyone. It appears to me that in the process of educating the DO, the philosophy of Osteopathic medicine takes a front seat to actual OMT. Is that so? I was told that recently Kansas City has changed its curriculum by reducing the OMT content. Is this true? Do you think that the major seperatory aspect between MD and DO is indeed the philosophy?
     
  20. UHS2002

    UHS2002 Senior Member

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    Actually UHS (Kansas City)is starting a totally new curriculum next year. It is somewhat system based, somewhat PBL, for what I understand, it is supposed to take the best parts of both (which have been "tested" in many other medical schools) and try to avoid their shortcomings. Obviously, as in everything human, it will end up having shortcomings of its own, but cutting down on OMT is not going to be one of them. Instead, OMT will be integrated into the "system" studied, as much as possible. If this will result in less OMT time per se I don't know.

     
  21. UHS03

    UHS03 Senior Member

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    I do not believe that UHS has reduced the amount of OMT taught. It is true that a new curriculum is being implemented for the incoming first year students, and OPP will obviously undergo some changes as a result of that. I don't know in terms of lecture and lab hours how things will be, but I have not heard anything about a deemphasis of OMT at UHS. If you are concerned, call the school, I'm sure someone there will be able to answer your questions.

    Regarding your other question, OMT is a tool osteopathic physicians use. It is not a philosophy. It is rooted in the osteopathic philosophy, but an osteopath who does not practice OMT has not necessarily abandoned the "osteopathic philosophy." You can label the "philosophy" any number of things, but I abhor the mantra, "we treat the whole patient, not just the disease." While an osteopathic student or physician may understand what this means, I would think it is quite offensive to other physicians (MD's) as it implies that all they care about is the disease. The philosophy encompasses a number of things, but the thing I have found that is truly different from what MD students are taught is the way we are taught to look at disease and diagnoses. DO's recognize the fact that the body is entirely interconnected and interdependent. Fascia and other tissue allows for the possibility that disease in one area may have reprucussions in other, seemingly unrelated areas. All anatomy students learn about fascia, but not all are taught how it can affect pathology (or how pathology can affect it.) For most conditions, the training of an MD or DO results in the exact same management. However, those conditions which may affect the musculoskeletal system can have implications that not all physicians are taught to look for. Obviously, there is much to this I have left out. I am just finishing my first year at UHS (2 more weeks, yeah!!) so I have no clue how all this didactic philosophy stuff actually translates (if at all) into the average DO's practice. These are things you learn during your first 2 years that has sort of become the rallying cry of academic osteopaths (the body is a unit, treat the person not just the disease, etc., etc.) These things are great to learn, but whether or not they actually are used by the average DO in practice, I can't say. The DO's that I have known do not seem to approach medicine in any way that is different from their MD colleagues. I have a feeling that "the differences between MD and DO philosophy" debate is one that is largely discussed by pre-meds and med students who are still in their didactic years. The things I have mentioned here are things I have learned in lecture from DO's who live in the world of academia. These teachers have practices as well, but they are all OMM specialists. They obviously teach about osteopathy in a way that I'm sure is quite different from how a DO surgeon or cardiologist would. I could be wrong about that, but it is difficult to determine how much of it is actually an active part of the mental process a typical DO goes through when evaluating a patient. And, liek I said before, most of the DO's I know can only be differentiated from their MD colleagues by the letters after their name..I do not see a different approach to patient evaluation. These are observations, not opinions, and certainly not intended to start any kind of flame war about this issue. As I admit to having an understanding of osteopathic medicine appropriate for a first year student, I am not in a position to argue with anyone who has more experience. Lastly, despite my observations, I prefer to remain optimistic (perhaps idealistic) that the things I am taught in OPP will actually translate into real-world medicine. I am not referring to OMT techniques, but to the philosophies behind the OMT that supposedly distinguish DO's and justify the two-tier medical system we have in America. Whoops, didn't realize this was getting so long-winded. I'll quit now I think :p
     
  22. ryanpj

    ryanpj Senior Member

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    Here is something every person considering an Osteopathic education must consider: Am I prepared to represent, explain, and embrace my osteopathic education. I find my self doing this often and I will only start school this year. It kind of makes me mad when people apply to both allopathic and osteopathic schools, but only use the D.O. schools as a fall back. To me that is ****! I only applied to osteopathic schools. If I am going to be paying at least 16K a year in tuition then I am going to pay the extra $$ to live and embrace the supposed philosophy that I live by. One of my favorite sayings to put osteopathy into perspective is that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
     
  23. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member

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    Ryan, you raise legitimate points, but you are pissed at the wrong people. GOING to a DO school is a legitimate avenue for many people to practice MEDICINE, and that is why they go DO...not for the philosophy but for the career...it isn't THEIR fault, it is the schools fault for allowing this avenue to be open in the first place. There isn't anything really to be ticked about here, YOU probably would become an MD if there were NO DO SCHOOLS, simply because that Avenue is available to you to practice medicine. THE RIGHT TO PRACTICE is why people do this in the first place, not because of the PHILOSOPHY...don't believe me? ASK MD STUDENTS "what is medical schools philosophy of medicine" they wont have much of an answer, because it often was NEVER part of their main equation to going to medical school. REMEMBER: osteopathic philosopy exists SOLELY to differentiate it from a garbage term "allopathy". "Allopathy" as a philosophy doesn't even EXIST....it is a rumor PLACED upon the MD medical community by an OUTSIDE force over 100 years ago when most legitimate medicine didnt even exist...(chicancery, bleeding and abusive drugging did). If you read about the development of HOMEOPATHIC medicine during the 19th century, you will see the truth of this. Besides, most people GOING DO dont disagree with the central tenets of osteopathy, they simply discard certain MECHANICS OF APPLICATION. MDS AND DENTISTS recognize the legitimacy of fascia restrictions and somatovisceral responses...they simply DONT place it at the FOREFRONT of their educational processes.
     
  24. ryanpj

    ryanpj Senior Member

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    I should clarify myself about those that I am pissed off with. I am pissed with those who bad mouth D.O's and then turn around and apply to D.O. schools after they do not get accepted to MD. I mean the are some that will say. "that is not a doctor, etc...".
     
  25. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member

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    nice clarification ryan, i agree, if you are openly saying that DO isnt real medicine and then you go into it, you are going to be a psychotic low self esteem whank and never get over it...unfortunately it sounds like you and i have both met this animal.
     

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