Trump, Doctors and Taxes.

Discussion in 'Anesthesiology' started by sevoflurane, Nov 30, 2016.

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  1. Precedexed Out

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    1% of previous workforce plus robots - that is wrong. Even with robots, they still require way more than 1% of the workforce that existed without robots. Statements like that are intentionally misleading.

    Just give the money to poor folk, sure, since that is a sustainable solution.

    The laws regarding ensuring all employees are legal isn't enforced and therefore mostly useless. Especially when states like California are trying to cater to these illegal immigrants. There is no motivation to keep them from working.

    The wall isn't a joke and it isn't just to keep people out from working. It is also to keep drugs and terrorists and as much bad out of this country as possible. Sure, it isn't perfect, but a sophisticated wall in combination with border enforcement would go a long ways to keeping illegal immigrants out. Something democrats have demonstrated repeatedly they have no desire to do. Just having Trump as president (vs Obama) has reduced the influx of illegals. Another problem with illegals, they don't all want to work, why work when you can get food stamps, healthcare, and education at taxpayer expense? The wall isn't solely about keeping illegal workers out.

    One thing the democratic party is passionate about is allowing as much illegal immigration as possible and not enforcing immigration law. If they shows even a fraction of the dedication to helping US citizens, we may have a different president.

    Most of the last eight years we did have a liberal at the top, so many of the problems we face are still from the previous administration. It is a different tone from Trump, he doesn't blame Obama for everything like Obama did blame Bush for everything for nearly his entire presidency.

    Liberals aren't currently running the country, but many of the problems (like illegal immigration) are a result from the Obama failure era.
     
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    It is important to avoid confusing republicans and Trump is equivalent. Most of the republicans represent the status quo (as evident from failure to repeal Obamacare) like the democrats. Establishment republicans and democrats seem to have more in common than most republicans and Trump.
     
  4. GA8314

    GA8314 Regaining my sanity 2+ Year Member

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    I agree to disagree with many of the points you've made.

    In particular, you say the liberals "are not running the country". You are partially correct. The ESTABLISHMENT does. Some are Democrats and some are Republicans. Most don't give a sh.t as long as their interests are protected.
     
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  5. WholeLottaGame7

    WholeLottaGame7 10+ Year Member

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    Right here.
    I don't disagree with anything specifically about this statement. When it comes to Americans and low-paying jobs, I always think of the scene from National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation where Randy Quaid's character is/has been unemployed because he's "holding out for a management position." You are right, there are no shortage of low-skilled, low-paying jobs, but Americans just don't want to work hard and be paid peanuts. I have a lot of respect for immigrants who work long hours in the fields and construction, and it goes to show you what conditions are like in their home countries that they feel that kind of work is a privilege.

    But there appears to be a quandary. Those jobs exist, and are needed, but Americans don't want them and you don't want immigrants to take them. Obviously, the ideal situation would be to pay more so that Americans will be incentivized to take them, but Americans also like cheap groceries and cheap labor, not to mention profitable businesses, both for themselves and as stockholders. Unfortunately, all those things are not compatible with each other and are often in direct opposition.
     
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  6. WholeLottaGame7

    WholeLottaGame7 10+ Year Member

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    Right here.
    So banning illegal immigrants and constructing barriers to make it difficult for them to access our country will "go a long ways to keeping illegal immigrants out," but banning military-grade firearms and making it more difficult to have access to them won't make it more difficult for criminals to get them, only well-meaning citizens?

    (I'm not sure what your stance on gun control is, but I can guess based on your stance on other issues).

    I think criminals will continue with criminal activity if the risk/benefit ratio works out in their favor, regardless of whether that applies to immigration or gun control.
     
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  7. SaltyDog

    SaltyDog Keeping the Forces of Entropy at Bay 10+ Year Member

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    Agree. You could pay $25/hr to pick lettuce and Americans still wouldn't do it.
     
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    I'm not sure what firearms has to do with the specific discussion other than serve as a distraction. My general stance on this issue is that criminals don't follow laws. Therefore writing more laws isn't going to have much effect, except on law abiding citizens. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. And if you're referring to Las Vegas, I don't think there is anything that could have been done to stop it. I know some don't like to hear that, but this guy was pure evil. It is hard to stop that. For example, increasing the cost of a traffic violation is likely to make people obey the law. Conversely, creating laws to stop someone like in Las Vegas isn't going to do anything because this guy had no intentions of coming out alive.
     
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    Entirely false statement.

    For the right price, workers will do any job. The problem is the influx of illegals which allow more supply than demand causing wages to be low.
     
  10. WholeLottaGame7

    WholeLottaGame7 10+ Year Member

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    Right here.
    So why will enforcing stricter immigration laws/building a wall keep criminals out?
     
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    Examples of Serious Crimes By Illegal Aliens | Federation for American Immigration Reform

    It will help keep criminals, drugs, human trafficking, ______, _______, ...etc. Insert all the other bad stuff that comes from Mexico. Contrary to the media reports, not every illegal immigrant is a nursing student or high school valedictorian.

    It is crazy how people like you act like you're against illegal immigration, but oppose any measures taken to stop it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  12. WholeLottaGame7

    WholeLottaGame7 10+ Year Member

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    Right here.
    You just said that it's hard to stop pure evil. To some extent, I disagree that stricter gun laws would have stopped the LV shooter, as it would be awfully difficult to kill 58 and wound 500 from that distance with a knife or a hand gun. Would he have then just gone to ground level and tried the same thing? Maybe, but I bet there were enough people/security around that were armed that the death toll would have been much lower. But that's not really the point.

    The point is that, as you said, laws will not stop a motivated criminal, especially if the financial incentives are high enough to continue their activity (drugs, human trafficking, etc). They will make it harder for well-intentioned immigrants to come and stay here. Am I in favor of illegal immigration? No. But am I in favor of figuring out a better way of documenting, investigating, and keeping tabs on people who are willing to come here and work hard to make better lives for their families? Absolutely. Contrary to Trump's Twitter reports, not every illegal immigrant is a murderer or a rapist.

    Here's an article from my neck of the woods: Are immigrants taking farm jobs from US citizens? In NC, farmers say no.

    For every "illegal aliens are raping our women!" article, I can probably find 10 of these.
     
  13. Precedexed Out

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    So you're anti-Trump/republican and against socialized medicine?
     
  14. Precedexed Out

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    Your premise above in the gun law idea is that guns are the only way to kill people (although I know you don't believe that). Suppose no guns are available to any US citizen, unless they are being used for security to protect the top 1% (you can't have them, but we can). There are many other methods to kill a large number of people in a short period of time. Maybe if he couldn't get the weapons for this attack (criminals are resourceful) he would have used an alternative weapon.

    In my opinion, immigration enforcement starts at the border. The border has to be controlled and a barrier is that control. Combine a barrier with other methods to ensure illegal immigrants will gain nothing from coming into the US, and illegal immigration will dramatically slow. We need to end every incentive for illegals to come here, including anchor babies. Having a child on US soil should not guarantee the right to stay.

    It is hard to know the exact impact of illegal immigration because they don't register or report where they are working. Any measurements of their activity and impact are simply estimates. Regardless of impact, they are illegal immigrants and do not have the right to be here or come here. It is cheaper and safer to keep to keep them out in the first place. Once they get here, the legal process is long and expensive to get them out. Trump never said "every" illegal immigrant is a murder or rapist. However, they are all in violation of US law.

    Illegal Aliens Taking U.S. Jobs | Federation for American Immigration Reform
     
  15. vector2

    vector2 ASA Member 10+ Year Member

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    You're essentially just straight up lying and the statistics do not agree with you. Fact is, Obama presided over one of the greatest periods of peacetime deportation in history.

    [​IMG]
    https://www.economist.com/news/brie...ne-largest-peacetime-outflows-people-americas
     
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  16. facted

    facted ASA Member 7+ Year Member

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    I know something that would have stopped this. Not selling assault rifles. Hard to shoot 600 people from a few hundred feet away with a handgun.
     
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  17. facted

    facted ASA Member 7+ Year Member

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  18. nimbus

    nimbus Member 10+ Year Member

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    I actually take care of quite a few patients injured in construction and farm accidents that get transferred from outlying counties because my hospital has an agreement to accept transfers from several small rural hospitals. These patients with thick calloused hands and weathered skin from a lifetime of hard work are almost always Hispanic immigrants. I never check their immigration status because it's not my job and I don't care. I also have another set of patients with weathered skin, they happen to be US born homeless tweakers. Sometimes the immigrants are not the problem.
     
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  19. facted

    facted ASA Member 7+ Year Member

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    No, there are not many other methods to kill a large number of people, which is why attacks are almost exclusively gun based.

    I guarantee it's easier to kill with a grenade launcher or a bazooka. And yet, since it's exceedingly difficult to get these since they're illegal, criminals don't use these. What makes you think assault rifles would be any different if they were outlawed and confiscated?
     
  20. vector2

    vector2 ASA Member 10+ Year Member

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    What's your evidence? And what's the right price? Should we just let small farmers go out of business because you hate undocumented brown people that much?

    ------------
    "
    Alabama immigration: crops rot as workers vanish to avoid crackdown

    Brian Cash can put a figure to the cost of Alabama's new immigration law: at least $100,000. That's the value of the tomatoes he has personally ripening out in his fields and that are going unpicked because his Hispanic workforce vanished literally overnight.


    For generations, Cash's family have farmed 125 acres atop the Chandler mountain, a plateau in the north of the state about nine miles long and two miles wide. It's perfect tomato-growing country – the soil is sandy and rich, and the elevation provides a breeze that keeps frost at bay and allows early planting.

    For four months every year he employs almost exclusively Hispanic male workers to pick the harvest. This year he had 64 men out in the fields.

    Then HB56 came into effect, the new law that makes it a crime not to carry valid immigration documents and forces the police to check on anyone they suspect may be in the country illegally.
    The provisions – the toughest of any state in America – were enforced on 28 September. By the next day Cash's workforce had dwindled to 11.

    Today there is no-one left. The fields around his colonial-style farmhouse on top of a mountain are empty of pickers and the tomato plants are withering on the vine as far as the eye can see. The sweet, slightly acrid smell of rotting tomato flesh hangs in the air.

    On Friday, the 11th circuit appeals court in Atlanta blocked the first of those measures, but allowed the state to continue detaining suspected illegal migrants. So it is unlikely that Cash's workers will dare to reappear.

    The blow to Cash can be measured in those $100,000 – money he says he had wanted to put aside as insurance against a poor crop in future years. But it can also be measured in other ways.

    Cash says that losing his pickers is much more than a commercial disaster. "Many of these people are friends and like family to us. They have been working for my family for years."

    The crew leader for Cash's fields has been working for his family for 17 years. "He's my age and we pretty much grew up together," he says.

    Cash has sponsored him in his application for American naturalisation – a process that the immigration authorities have said will take up to nine years and cost up to $17,000.

    The crew leader already has permanent residency status and his two children are US citizens, but because his wife is undocumented he was fearful of the new law and left abruptly along with the others the minute the provisions came in.

    Cash gets angry when people tell him that his Hispanic workforce was taking jobs away from Americans. Since the new law began two weeks ago only two American citizens have come by his farm asking for work.


    The couple had driven two hours from a city to offer their services, but they barely lasted that long in the fields. Cash discovered that they were trying to fiddle him by notching up two baskets of tomatoes for every one they picked – as they were paid by the basket that would have fraudulently doubled their earnings.

    "That's just the kind of stuff you come across. Somebody who really wants a good job and is prepared to work hard and honest for it isn't going to come up here for four months in the year.

    "But Hispanics will do that, and move on to Florida when the picking's finished."


    In a couple of weeks Cash says he will kiss goodbye to all the tomatoes left in the fields. He has already begun to pull up the stakes and remove the plastic ground cover, and then he will take a tractor out and bury the plants under ground.

    "It's going to be a little while, but eventually people will see what has been done here. The cost of food in the supermarkets is going to go up, and in the end we will all pay the price."
    --------------
    Alabama immigration: crops rot as workers vanish to avoid crackdown
     
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  21. WholeLottaGame7

    WholeLottaGame7 10+ Year Member

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    Right here.
    I have to agree with @FFP on this. I think it starts well behind the border, with the businesses that employ them. If there were no jobs available, then they wouldn't come across the border looking for them. If it's criminal for immigrants to not register or report where they're working, why isn't it criminal for employers to register or report who they're employing? They are, obviously, but as was stated, there's no stomach from the "establishment" to actually enforce that side of the equation because those businesses are the ones funding the political campaigns.

    Cheap goods, big profits, no illegal immigrants. Pick two.
     
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  22. nimbus

    nimbus Member 10+ Year Member

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    According to one of the OB/gyn's I work with, the latest trend he noticed in anchor babies is not from illegal immigrants but from wealthy Chinese couple's who rent US surrogate wombs to gestate their embryos. He delivers the US citizen babies who go home to China with their Chinese national parents after a few weeks. All 100% legal. So the Chinese do hire some US "labor". Talk about shifting world order. I hesitated to even ask who's footing the bill for delivery.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  23. Precedexed Out

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    Really? The actions and inactions of the democratic party speak volumes. I can't think of any republican run cities or states that give sanctuary status. When was the last time a republican was passionate about the "rights" of illegal immigrants? The removal of illegals doesn't equal enforcing border law and keeping them out.
     
  24. Precedexed Out

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    I know what would have stopped 9/11. No more airplanes. Stupid and illogical argument.
     
  25. Precedexed Out

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    Yes, lets outlaw them, since criminals follow the law. Logical.
     
  26. Precedexed Out

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    So what? A law is passed and the workers vanish. If these illegals weren't here to begin with this wouldn't have occurred because another solution would have been in place to harvest these crops.
     
  27. Precedexed Out

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    I think criminal prosecution for hiring undocumented workers should be enforced. As you stated, the establishment has no desire to enforce this, both republican and democrat. Too much money on the line.
     
  28. facted

    facted ASA Member 7+ Year Member

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    Honestly, this has to be the dumbest thing you've said so far in this thread, and that's saying something.

    Well, if you make them difficult to obtain, then yes, that works. Hence why we don't get shot up by missile launchers.
     
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  29. Precedexed Out

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    Guns are part of American culture. There would be no practical way to confiscate guns. You're argument is about as stupid as it gets. Difficult to obtain doesn't mean they are impossible to obtain. More stupidity from you.
     
  30. facted

    facted ASA Member 7+ Year Member

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    Difficulty makes it less likely they are used in crimes. That's a fact.

    Regardless, this whole thread is about taxes, which I'm not sure you've added anything about. Why not make another thread?
     
  31. Twiggidy

    Twiggidy ASA Member 2+ Year Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  32. Precedexed Out

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    I didn't bring guns into this discussion, but you wouldn't say anything about it to the other liberals on here. You're more concerned with disagreeing with me.
     
  33. Precedexed Out

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    This was the first post introducing guns @facted. An inconvenient fact for you. Why don't you ask WholeLottaGame7 that question?
     
  34. facted

    facted ASA Member 7+ Year Member

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    Where is your post about Trump and the tax bill?
     
  35. Precedexed Out

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    Maybe you should use the few working neurons left in your brain and to look at previous posts. Many others on here have posted non-tax related stuff. Why are you only calling me out now?
     
  36. facted

    facted ASA Member 7+ Year Member

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    Because none of your posts on this whole forum are constructive or on topic. Ad Hominem attacks are a great way to ignore facts. Must have learned that from Trump. You won't get any more responses from me, btw. You're on my ignore list moving forward. Good luck with your interview season.
     
  37. pgg

    pgg Laugh at me, will they? SDN Moderator 10+ Year Member

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    Options:

    1) Grow lettuce, pay low wages to illegal workers to pick lettuce, people eat lettuce.
    2) Grow lettuce, offer $25/hr but legal workers won't pick lettuce, people don't eat lettuce.
    3) Don't grow lettuce.

    3 seems like a perfectly viable option to me.

    If people start rioting in the Burger King drive-thru because they can't get a burger with lettuce, maybe there's a new option:

    4) Grow lettuce, offer $50/hr to pick it. Someone will.
     
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  38. WholeLottaGame7

    WholeLottaGame7 10+ Year Member

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    Right here.
    The point was not to switch the discussion over to guns, but to point out the hypocrisy of saying "Let's outlaw X, that will make it happen less!" while also saying "There's no point in outlawing Y, it won't make it happen less!" That's not up for debate, what's up for debate is whether the other consequences are worth it or not.
     
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  39. Precedexed Out

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    I know you weren't trying to switch the discussion to guns.
     
  40. Precedexed Out

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    Exactly, I don't understand how it is ethical to allow people to work for a very low wage so us Americans can save money. Perhaps lettuce is artificially cheap because of the cheap labor.
     
  41. Precedexed Out

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    None, really? None. Do you actually read anything I post? You should get a new username that doesn't contain the word fact.

    It won't hurt my feelings if you ignore me. Take the easy way out like @FFP, kinda cowardly to ignore those you don't agree with.
     
  42. vector2

    vector2 ASA Member 10+ Year Member

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    What are you, 12 years old? Your magical 'If they weren't here to begin with' statement demonstrates how little you know about a variety of policy subjects and how to approach them. Barring you inventing a time machine, the fact is, they are here and they do jobs that citizens have proven unwilling to do. Deporting 11 million otherwise law abiding people overnight is as immoral as it is unfeasible. Even your idol in the white house seems to have some tiny modicum of concern for dreamers and their families.

    The US has already voted with their wallets repeatedly over the last 50 years that cheap goods are indispensable. Wal-Mart and Target do not become multibillion dollar corporations while thousands of mom and pop stores go bust if the converse is true. You can close your eyes and click your heels hoping that Americans will come to their senses regarding the ethics of low wage labor, but in the meantime, you'd have to be sociopath to think deporting every single person who went through considerable hardship just to get that low wage job is the ethical choice.

    As for pgg' s numbered choices, why not

    5. Start a guest worker program for resident aliens without criminal records. No citizenship, but they can finally come out of the dark and get a taxpayer id. The guest workers pays taxes, the business owner pays taxes, the guest worker gets paid a fairer wage, Americans still get to eat lettuce, drink orange juice, and have their suburban cookie cutter houses get built.
     
  43. brocephalic

    brocephalic 5+ Year Member

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    We've got a fanboy in here,
     
  44. Precedexed Out

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    Lay off the name calling and other non-contributory rhetoric. It seems to be your ammo, but I suggest rising above that level.

    Based on your position, you must be tolerant of the US exploiting these workers for our convenience. I don't find that acceptable. Citizens haven't proven unwilling to do these jobs, that is a made up fantasy. Maybe US citizens won't do them for $5/hour and work 12 hour days six days a week. Deporting 11 million illegal immigrants is not immoral, they are here illegally. They intentionally violated US law in coming here. There is a difference between "low wage labor" and exploiting the people of a foreign country for the benefit of another country (i.e. US). I don't care how much "hardship" it took to get here, they still violated US law in coming here and violate it every day by being here.

    A solution to this problem is to levy high fines +/- jail time to employers who hire them without work permits. Make work permits simple to obtain for those without a criminal history. Those who don't overstay their permit and don't get into legal trouble are welcome back. Those who cause problems are deported immediately and banned from entry.

    You may not agree with some or anything I stated, but I presented my points with a neutral tone without name calling or being condescending. Perhaps you could try that some time. If the liberal ideas are so terrific, they shouldn't need to be supported by this type of language.
     
  45. pgg

    pgg Laugh at me, will they? SDN Moderator 10+ Year Member

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    I have mixed feelings about the guest worker solution. Maybe a more accurate (but still oversimplified) list of options:

    1) illegal workers, very low wages, very low prices
    2) guest worker program, low wages, low prices
    3) no guest worker program, low wages (no takers), goods aren't available
    4) no guest worker program, better wages (some takers), still pretty low prices

    The truth is that the worker's wage is a tiny, tiny fraction of the cost of food at retail. Doubling or tripling the picker's wage only adds a tiny amount to the consumer's cost.

    The problem with a guest worker program is that it relieves pressure on the industry to raise wages. Ultimately, what's better for the nation? Cheap luxury goods, or employed citizens harvesting or making slightly more expensive luxury goods?

    We can buy raspberries year round because we fly them in from South America. Sometimes they're $1.99 a basket when in season & grown locally, and sometimes they're $4.99 a basket when they're imported. There's clearly a market for luxury produce at more than double the in-season prices. The staples that keep people alive are factory farmed in a highly automated way, so it's not like foods people need to survive are going to get a great deal more expensive.

    All that said, the kind of immigrants who are doing these jobs are exactly the sort of people we should want to be immigrating and becoming citizens. They’re very hard working people chasing the American dream. Socially conservative, religious, you’d think the Republicans would love them.

    I have difficulty believing the world would stop spinning and fling us all into space if we couldn’t buy lettuce for $.60/head or strawberries for $2/basket.
     
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  46. Precedexed Out

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    The bold underlined is entirely irrelevant to liberal doctrine. As we all know, the real interest in allowing these illegals into the country has nothing to do with working for a low wage. All democrats see is votes, but the democrats like to use it as a distraction from real issues.

    Republicans don't want people here illegally, they are not anti-legal immigration. If you want to work here, come here legally. It isn't as simple as you portray it. We don't have to allow people into the US, coming here is not a right. We need to be very selective in who is allowed to come here. We are not the world job bank or welfare program.
     
  47. SaltyDog

    SaltyDog Keeping the Forces of Entropy at Bay 10+ Year Member

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    Thanks for re-working your original post (that first one was silly and beneath you). This one makes sense. I still think you're gonna have a hard time finding Americans to work the fields even at higher wages. I know you spent some time in the Central Valley. How much are you gonna have to offer the typical American Millennial to toil in those fields when it's 105F out and you're hunched over and dirty all day??

    But, let's say you can do just that. Prices rise to the point where importing becomes a more viable option. Now then entire industry is hurting which is a huge part of the economy especially for a state like CA. I know @Precedexed Out is gonna say "then you place high tariffs on the imported produce" but now you're just chasing your tail, prices climb higher, etc., etc.

    I like the guest worker idea. Let people come here for the growing season. They must be registered. The will receive at least minimum wage and in turn pay taxes like citizens. At the end of the growing season they must return home. Prices may rise a little bit at least to non-artificially suppressed levels. Everyone wins.


    And now for a (sorta) funny immigration story. My dad (Don) is your typical nondescript white guy, born and raised in SoCal. For a while growing up he had a summertime job at a local cement plant where it was basically him and bunch of illegal Mexican immigrants. One day the immigration trucks roll up (he said it was common for local business owners to tip off INS on their own workers on pay-day so they would get a couple weeks of free labor - talk about F'ed up). Anyways, all the workers start scrambling except of course for my dad who is just standing there watching everything unfold. One of the other workers races back and grabs my dad by shoulder shouting "Run Don, Run!!!" :lol:
     
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  48. Twiggidy

    Twiggidy ASA Member 2+ Year Member

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    "Corre, Donito! Corre!"

    That reminds me of the movie "Born in East LA"
     
  49. vector2

    vector2 ASA Member 10+ Year Member

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    Dec 26, 2006
    Again, you are childlike, naive, and punitive in your thinking if you honestly can't differentiate between an act that is illegal and one that's immoral. You need to be a sociopath to believe justice is being done by deporting an undocumented lady who's been here 20 years, pays taxes, has no criminal record, and whose entire family including native born children live here.

    My "ammo" is backing up what I say with facts and evidence. The vast majority of your posts are unsubstantiated rhetoric ripped from breitbart headlines. I asked for evidence before and I'll ask again- what supports your claim that citizens are willing to do these jobs? Because to me, it appears that research based on census data indicates that natives and undocumented even with similarly low education levels stratify into different job markets. Of note, misc. agriculture worker doesn't even make the top 10 for natives.

    [​IMG]

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    Immigrant and native workers compete for different low-skilled jobs



    And here's an article from this March about the farming situation in California:
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    Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don't want the job
    "
    ....
    But the commute is paying off. A year ago, the 31-year-old from Mexico was earning $14.75 an hour doing the same work for a different Napa company. He joined Silverado in April and now he’s making $19.50 working vineyards that produce grapes for a winery whose bottles go for about $300.

    “Everything in Napa is different. They treat you differently there, they don’t pressure you, and they respect the law,” he says. “If you work here, in Stockton, you don’t have enough money.”

    According to the economic theory behind Trump’s immigration crackdown, Americans should be following Martinez’s van into the fields.

    “The law of supply and demand doesn’t stop being true just because you’re talking about people,” says George Borjas, a Harvard economist and prominent foe of unfettered immigration. “[Farmers] have had an almost endless supply of low-skill workers for a long time, and now they are finding it difficult to transition to a situation where they don’t.”

    Borjas believes the ones who reap the rewards of immigration are employers — not just farmers, but restaurant owners and well-to-do homeowners who hire landscapers and housekeepers. The people who suffer most are American workers, who contend with more competition for jobs and lower pay.

    But Silverado, the farm labor contracting company in Napa, has never had a white, American-born person take an entry-level gig, even after the company increased hourly wages to $4 above the minimum. And Silverado is far from unique.

    U.S. workers filled just 2% of a sample of farm labor vacancies advertised in 1996, according to a report published by the Labor Department’s office of inspector general. “I don’t think anybody would dispute that that’s roughly the way it is now” as well, says Philip Martin, an economist at UC Davis and one of the country’s leading experts on agriculture.

    Indeed, Chalmers R. Carr III, the president of Titan Farms, a South Carolina peach giant, told lawmakers at a 2013 hearing that he advertised 2,000 job openings from 2010 through 2012. Carr said he was paying $9.39, $2 more than the state’s minimum wage at the time.

    He hired 483 U.S. applicants, slightly less than a quarter of what he needed; 109 didn’t show up on the first day. Another 321 of them quit, “the vast majority in the first two days,” Carr testified. Only 31 lasted for the entire peach season.

    Borjas, the Harvard economist, says that it may just be that wages are still too low. “Believe me, if the wages were really, really high, you and I would be lining up,” Borjas says.

    Or perhaps farms are just not a place where native-born Americans want to work. The job is seasonal, so laborers have to alternate between long stretches without any income and then months of 60-hour weeks. They work in extreme heat and cold, and spend all day bending over to reach vegetables or climbing up and down ladders to pluck fruit in trees.

    “You don’t need a deep analysis to understand why farm work wouldn’t be attractive to young Americans,” says Martin, the agriculture expert.

    If farmers upped the average wage to, say, $25 an hour, people born here might think twice. But that’s a pipe dream, many argue.

    “Well before we got to $25, there would be machines out in the fields, doing pruning or harvesting, or we would lose crops,” Martin says.

    -----------------

    And please, don't feed me any of your bullsht crocodile tears about how you're concerned about low wages. I know it happens to fit your narrative in this particular case, but it's disingenuous when you are solely in the camp of the party that has pushed to abolish/cap the minimum wage for the last 30 years.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
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  50. vector2

    vector2 ASA Member 10+ Year Member

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    Number 4 of yours would've been my option if there was a theoretical blank slate where one could go back 50 years and create de novo immigration policy, but it's unfortunately not where we are at now. I still think we can push a hybrid 2/4 solution by creating a guest worker program that brings the undocumented out into the light, yet mandates higher wages for unskilled labor and impose heavy penalties on employers who break the law. It's intuitive that increasing low skilled wages should discourage low skilled immigration, but so far it appears that incentivizing certain types of jobs does not yet have the intended effect of attracting more native workers, but rather just creates shortages.

    The world certainly wouldn't stop spinning if we couldn't buy raspberries, but I think a little deceleration would be in order if we had massive shortages in maids, nannies, janitors, cooks, and construction workers.
     
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  51. pgg

    pgg Laugh at me, will they? SDN Moderator 10+ Year Member

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    Home Again
    You’re probably right. But I still wonder if the answer there is that if living wages can’t be paid then maybe they should plant something else.

    I was in the Central Valley for a while. So much of what’s grown there are cash crops / luxury produce. Don’t get me wrong, I loved eating it and it’s one of the things I miss most about California.

    When it’s the middle of an epic decade long drought and we’re irrigating fields of lettuce, grapes intended for the raisin factory, almond orchards, etc ... and paying terrible wages to mostly undocumented workers ... I just have to ask myself whether or not that industry should even exist in that form.

    Maybe a guest worker program is an incrementally better state of affairs.

    I should probably quit commenting on it, since I’m not real well informed. But I have to admit discomfort with the core rationale behind “guest workers” ... it’s the idea that the solution to an industry’s labor problems is to import the poor and desperate rather than pay locals a wage sufficient to do the work, and let the market prices fall where they may.
     
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