Two new schools, VCOM-Auburn and LarkinCOM, move forward

[user3]

VCOM-Auburn will tentatively open in 2015, LarkinCOM (South Miami, FL) in 2016.

http://www.oanow.com/news/article_a9faab46-6902-11e3-aaae-001a4bcf6878.html
http://larkinhospital.com/site/2013/11/university_zoning/

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[ChineseKid]

 

[cliquesh]

I feel like a drama queen, but I think its horrible. I'm talking about the two new schools, not the gif, heh.

 

[medickdb]

There are quite a few allopathic schools set to open in the next couple of years as well.

 

[user3]

There are quite a few allopathic schools set to open in the next couple of years as well.

not the case as of now. WMU is the only new school that is currently set to open (this fall, 50 students).

source- http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm#pre-accredited-programs

 

[cliquesh]

There are quite a few allopathic schools set to open in the next couple of years as well.

That's horrible, too.

 

[NCOldie]

http://wingofzock.org/2013/05/21/proposed-u-s-allopathic-and-osteopathic-medical-schools/
This is an article that discusses the developing medical schools. It was written in May, so some information may be incorrect, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States#Developing_medical_schools

There's a list of developing medical schools at the bottom. It was last modified on December 25th.

There are a lot of new schools coming--both Allopathic and Osteopathic.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Here is my take. The US population is growing at a rate of ~1% annually. The number of practicing physicians should grow at this rate to balance the demand and supply. Currently, there are approximately 26K students enrolled in their first year of medical education. 1% of that is roughly 260. Therefore, as long as the number of MS-1 for both MD and DO programs doesn't increase by more than 260 a year, then we are fine.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I'm not hating but maybe I'm biased since I'm Class 2018, but I figure more DO schools = more recognition with the general patient population.

 

[coolingglasses]

I'm not hating but maybe I'm biased since I'm Class 2018, but I figure more DO schools = more recognition with the general patient population.

It's all fun and games unless the residency slots stagnate in the face of an expanding graduate population.

 

[ToKingdomCome]

The problem isn't so much the number of new schools opening up. The problem is not enough funding to open up new residencies to meet the need.

 

[NurWollen]

http://wingofzock.org/2013/05/21/proposed-u-s-allopathic-and-osteopathic-medical-schools/
This is an article that discusses the developing medical schools. It was written in May, so some information may be incorrect, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States#Developing_medical_schools

There's a list of developing medical schools at the bottom. It was last modified on December 25th.

There are a lot of new schools coming--both Allopathic and Osteopathic.

That list of developing medical schools has had New Mexico State on there for a while. It doesn't have a link and I can't find any other references to it anywhere. A new state DO school would be nice.

Anyway, there are always more rumored DO schools than actual DO schools. If estimate maybe 30-50% of the rumored DO schools at any give time end up becoming a reality. For example, there were rumors a while back about a for-profit DO school opening up in Rhode Island... haven't hear anything about that in a while. Utah seems to a state with a lot of rumors, nothing seems to materialize. Still, there are definitely too many new schools opening up. If only a quarter of the rumored schools open up it's too many. Especially when they're in states that already have a ton of med schools.

Luckily for me, any schools opening up from this next year onward won't directly affect my residency chances, but it's still disheartening.

 

[ToKingdomCome]

The problem isn't so much the number of new schools opening up. The problem is not enough funding to open up new residencies to meet the need.

Of course quality control is important to the DO profession but I think residency problems are more of the issue for me

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I feel the reason why congress has been lazy to expand residency position is because most reps will say "what are you talking about? there's physician shortages." When we see saturation, is when gov't will then be pressured to open up positions via more funding. Right now, I forget which thread, but they totaled the number of MD/DO graduates and also totaled the number of AOA/ACGME residencies and the number of graduates was LESS than residencies. That is what government will use against funding.

When the number of graduates is [greater than or equal to] residencies via MD/DO school expansion, I feel is when funding will occur. Therefore in the grand scheme of things, schools increase will be beneficial.

Now, if you want to nitpick upon limited spots in competitive residencies which will be even more competitive, then congress will just call you a diva, and tell you to suck it up and be the best applicant you can be.

Furthermore, DO schools would send ALL their graduates to FM/IM/Peds if they could since there are plenty of open spots.

That is the AOA philosophy to increase primary care physicians, not to get DOs into Dermatology. Don't make them look through your application essays where 99.99% said they vowed to be primary care physicians enthusiastic to serve the underserved, hmmmm??? lol lol

Lastly, one thing I AM TOTALLY DISSAPOINTED is there are more DO graduates than AOA residencies. The AOA is piggybacking ACGME instead of equalizing their number of available residencies proportional to the number of DO graduates. But since ACGME is everyone's hero, AOA is getting too relaxed instead of looking out self-efficiently with their own children.

- AOA theoretical response is that there are doing ACGME a service by filling up the open spots that go unfilled by the lack of MD graduates.


WE CANT WIN!!!

 

[chizledfrmstone]

So LarkinCOM will be another for-profit medical school?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So LarkinCOM will be another for-profit medical school?

Yay....

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

The ball is rolling and I don't see it stopping until serious residency issues start popping up. Why is higher education hell-bent on imploding every profession (for young grads, at least)?

 

[Escape_Goat]

Well if it makes anyone feel better, the number of new residency positions opened by the AOA is directly proportional to the number of new DO programs.

2 new schools -> 2 new residency positions

 

[CSqueed]

Here is my take. The US population is growing at a rate of ~1% annually. The number of practicing physicians should grow at this rate to balance the demand and supply. Currently, there are approximately 26K students enrolled in their first year of medical education. 1% of that is roughly 260. Therefore, as long as the number of MS-1 for both MD and DO programs doesn't increase by more than 260 a year, then we are fine.

That would be nice if residency positions grew along with that.


Overall, DO schools may just become like Law schools some day. Easier to get into, but too many graduates for spots.

 

[StarFall]

Hooray! I'm excited.

 

[happypremed1]

Well if it makes anyone feel better, the number of new residency positions opened by the AOA is directly proportional to the number of new DO programs.

2 new schools -> 2 new residency positions

And most of the spots will be traditional internships that lead to nowhere.

 

[costales]

So LarkinCOM will be another for-profit medical school?

It has nonprofit status according to this article:
http://www.bizjournals.com/southflo...arkin-hospital-unveils-plan-for.html?page=all

 

[costales]

There are quite a few allopathic schools set to open in the next couple of years as well.

An excellent point that's often overlooked. Many of them e.g. UC Riverside, UT Austin, also used the primary care shortage as rationale for state funding.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

An excellent point that's often overlooked. Many of them e.g. UC Riverside, UT Austin, also used the primary care shortage as rationale for state funding.

Schools with associated undergraduate institutes and are state funded cannot be compared to schools being founded that have none of these tbh. I don't think there's anything to fear about those students getting quality residencies and first choice at them.
The same cannot be said of graduates of these schools.

 

[happypremed1]

It's all fun and games unless the residency slots stagnate in the face of an expanding graduate population.

what ticks me off is that these new schools accept more than 150 students for their inaugural class. That's very large class size by the MD school standards.

 

[happypremed1]

I'm not hating but maybe I'm biased since I'm Class 2018, but I figure more DO schools = more recognition with the general patient population.

LOL more name recognition until you have to move somewhere new and need to find a new job when the market is f***** saturated.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

LOL more name recognition until you have to move somewhere new and need to find a new job when the market is f***** saturated.

Yeah because market saturation in all specialties is just around the corner. We'll be street beggars.

 

[cliquesh]

LOL more name recognition until you have to move somewhere new and need to find a new job when the market is f***** saturated.

That's my biggest concern. Finding a job will be more difficult and salaries will decrease. Moreover, if the new schools create an army of poorly trained DOs, everyone is going to assume DOs are mediocre. It

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That's my biggest concern. Finding a job will be more difficult and salaries will decrease. Moreover, if the new schools create an army of poorly trained DOs, everyone is going to assume DOs are mediocre. It

And residency directors will continue thinking that as well.

 

[costales]

what ticks me off is that these new schools accept more than 150 students for their inaugural class.

It's easy to have 150 people sit and read books, but that number is actually concerning.

 

[darklabel]

Well think of it this way, medicine has plenty of applicants who really want to study medicine and thanks to the US government giving everyone almost unlimited access to loan money (Grad Plus and Stafford up to Cost of Attendance), it is a no brainer for new schools to pop up to make a quick buck. Also, they can justify the high tuition and high number of students because they can just pay it off later and the high number of students is justified because there is some sort of PCP shortage.

Idk how opening new schools with no name recognition and in places saturated with medical schools is going to help. I mean seriously, there are already 4 medical schools in just south FL. This school is absolutely not needed. Also, I'm very skeptical of a school that was once for-profit and is now "non-profit".

And residency directors will continue thinking that as well.

True, remember that there are new MD programs. While family medicine and IM should be ok, if certain programs, lets say Surgery, start getting an influx of DO students applying but they have enough USMD applicants as it is, it is very easy for them to just start trashing DO applications to make it more bearable to go through applications.

inb4 DO applicants with a score of USMLE 260, I speak on averages, not the few people who score really well.

 

[happypremed1]

Well think of it this way, medicine has plenty of applicants who really want to study medicine and thanks to the US government giving everyone almost unlimited access to loan money (Grad Plus and Stafford up to Cost of Attendance), it is a no brainer for new schools to pop up to make a quick buck. Also, they can justify the high tuition and high number of students because they can just pay it off later and the high number of students is justified because there is some sort of PCP shortage.

Idk how opening new schools with no name recognition and in places saturated with medical schools is going to help. I mean seriously, there are already 4 medical schools in just south FL. This school is absolutely not needed. Also, I'm very skeptical of a school that was once for-profit and is now "non-profit".

And I keep hearing people say nobody makes money educating medical students. Then why the hell are all these new schools keep pooping up?
The community where I'm coming is truly underserved and there's a severe shortage of physicians. Therefore, I'm planning on opening up a DO school in my hometown after practicing medicine for a while. who wants to jump on my bandwagon?

 

[Escape_Goat]

And most of the spots will be traditional internships that lead to nowhere.

All two of those spots, in fact.

 

[user3]

Yeah because market saturation in all specialties is just around the corner. We'll be street beggars.

That's my biggest concern. Finding a job will be more difficult and salaries will decrease. Moreover, if the new schools create an army of poorly trained DOs, everyone is going to assume DOs are mediocre. It

are most medical specialties really heading towards saturation?

 

[EMDO2018]

Only time before medicine becomes like law, saturated, high unemployment for graduates, and low salaries. Medicine is one of the last fields to fall to greedy business people opening more school looking to make money. Now the noble profession is falling.

 

[happypremed1]

Only time before medicine becomes like law, saturated, high unemployment for graduates, and low salaries. Medicine is one of the last fields to fall to greedy business people opening more school looking to make money. Now the noble profession is falling.

It would be interesting to find some old SDN threads going back to maybe 10 or 15 years ago just to see people commented on the degree of saturation and physician job market back then.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Only time before medicine becomes like law, saturated, high unemployment for graduates, and low salaries. Medicine is one of the last fields to fall to greedy business people opening more school looking to make money. Now the noble profession is falling.

As long as residency remains to serve as the bottleneck of the entry to the profession, the profession will still be fine.

 

[EMDO2018]

As long as residency remains to serve as the bottleneck of the entry to the profession, the profession will still be fine.

Yeah, but do you really want you classmates who have ~250-300k in debt to be unable to match? That's a life destroying thing.

 

[user3]

Yeah, but do you really want you classmates who have ~250-300k in debt to be unable to match? That's a life destroying thing.

COCA passed new accreditation standards requiring all schools to strive to place 100% of grads in residencies, with a required minimum of 98% averaged over 3 years. With this in place, it is kind of surprising to still see more expansion.

 

[happypremed1]

Yeah, but do you really want you classmates who have ~250-300k in debt to be unable to match? That's a life destroying thing.

Last time I checked, the bill to expand residency got killed in the House.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Yeah, but do you really want you classmates who have ~250-300k in debt to be unable to match? That's a life destroying thing.

It would be a sad thing but at the end of the day, classmates aren't looking out to make sure you match. Every medical student is doing what they can for their own match. That's just life.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Yeah, but do you really want you classmates who have ~250-300k in debt to be unable to match? That's a life destroying thing.

Hopefully no one of my classmates, class of 2018, will have a problem securing a residency spot. There are plenty of positions to go around. Look at the the NRMP stats and you will see that DO's are slowly displacing IMG's/FMG's.

I have posted this numerous of times before, and I, shamelessly, post it again. There are roughly 30K pgy-1 positions (ACGME, AOA, Military, Ophth, Uro) and we have ~26-27K students who started their medical education in 2013 in the US. About 90-95% of those will finish school and participate in the 2017 residency match. Therefore, even if there's no increase in residency positions for the next 4 years, there will still be ~5K positions more than the number of US medical grads (MD's and DO's).

In regards to saturation of doctors, I don't think that will happen anytime soon. 40 something percent of practicing physicians are over 55 years old. Most, if not all, of these will be retiring sometime in the next 15 years. More physicians will volunteer to leave the field due to their unwillingness to conform to new regulations and "pay cuts". Add to that the fact than not all these residency grads are going to practice in the US. For example, more than 100 Saudi Arabian physicians matched pgy-1 positions in 2013. These residents are going back to practice in their home countries once they finish their training. I'm sure other countries send physicians to train them here as well.

Therefore, I'm not worried about graduating DO school and not being able to find a residency placement. I'm worried that my academic performance won't be sufficient to make me competitive for surgical specialties at big name academic programs.

 

[happypremed1]

COCA passed new accreditation standards requiring all schools to strive to place 100% of grads in residencies, with a required minimum of 98% averaged over 3 years.

To be hones, being able to place 100% grads in residencies is just pure speculation at this point. This is not a high standard. It seems that COCA approves anyone with a building. If a new school is put on probation for not meeting this "high" standard, then it would be at least 10 years old at that point. It would have dumped more than 7 class worth of graduates into the job market.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Last time I checked, the bill to expand residency got killed in the House.

That's, IMO, great news!

 

[EMDO2018]

COCA passed new accreditation standards requiring all schools to strive to place 100% of grads in residencies, with a required minimum of 98% averaged over 3 years. With this in place, it is kind of surprising to still see more expansion.

Whoah, then I see some of the newer schools closing down in a few years.

 

[EMDO2018]

And as far as the "DO's will push out IMG's" argument I don't know if cliquesh is around but there are some specialties, like internal medicine, and some regions of the county like the southeast, that prefer IMG over DO.

Internal medicine is not very DO friendly. Acgme IM PDs have always favored IMGs over DOs. Its not hard to match internal medicine somewhere as a DO, but matching somewhere good, like a mid-tier university program, can be difficult as a DO.
Moreover, the southeast is not DO friendly. Some places in the southeast, like VCU, west virgina U, Georgia university, university of south Carolina, wake forest and muiltiple places in florida, do take DOs. It's uncommon for UNC, duke, Virginia univ, or Emory to take DOs.
Also, I'm not sure what programs you looked at, but if they are only filled with IMGs, you wouldn't want to go there anyway.
Keep in mind you can always move back to the southeast after completing your residency elsewhere.
Finally, I think the whole "IMGs being pushed out" is wishful thinking. Many IMGs are better residents/applicants than US grads. It is, however, too early to see any new trends. It's going to a few more years before the residency crunch happens...if it even happens.

 

[UTsksk]

An excellent point that's often overlooked. Many of them e.g. UC Riverside, UT Austin, also used the primary care shortage as rationale for state funding.

Heard UT-RGV (new name of school) jumped in front of Austin. It's going to open up for next cycle

Also rumored that a DO school in St. Marys might open up in San Antonio, but who knows.

 

[user3]

allopathic medical school expansion may be taking place, but has been far better planned than DO expansion. all of the new MD schools are well supported (in terms of clinical affiliations, such as OU-WB and Hofstra-LIJ), most are affiliated with decent universities (like FAU, FIU, UCF, CMU, WMU, TT, Oakland, Hofstra, Rowan, UCR etc), and have reasonable class sizes (rather than opening with 150+ students). Nevermind that there are several thousand more allo residency spots than US MD grads.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I feel like a drama queen, but I think its horrible. I'm talking about the two new schools, not the gif, heh.

allopathic medical school expansion may be taking place, but has been far better planned than DO expansion. all of the new MD schools are well supported (in terms of clinical affiliations, such as OU-WB and Hofstra-LIJ), most are affiliated with decent universities (like FAU, FIU, UCF, CMU, WMU, TT, Oakland, Hofstra, Rowan, UCR etc), and have reasonable class sizes (rather than opening with 150+ students). Nevermind that there are several thousand more allo residency spots than US MD grads.

'Quality'
Flexnor's report actually is valued in the MD world. COCA wipes its ass on flexnor & excess money.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

'Quality'
Flexnor's report actually is valued in the MD world. COCA wipes its ass on flexnor & excess money.

Perhaps some quality is indeed lost in the beginning until schools can establish themselves properly, but nonetheless, no PD will know the difference amongst the DO schools (maybe might recognize a few well-established names here n there) but it ultimately comes down to you own preparation for the boards and how well you put your best foot forward. Many students complain how hazardous NYCOM is, but it doesn't stop them from making sure they study their asses off for the boards, impress during clinicals, and make sure they connect well enough to get good LORs. At that point, whether you graduate from xyzCOM or abcCOM won't make a difference for the residency of your choosing.