1. SDN Mobile is now free on iTunes and on the Google Play Store. Enjoy!
    Dismiss Notice

Typical corporate offers for a new graduate?

Discussion in 'Dental' started by soxinabox90, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. 2TH MVR

    2TH MVR Orthodontist
    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    678
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Status:
    Dentist
    Luckily .... the Corp I work for is not a big fan of aligner tx. I've never liked aligners since they were 1st brought to market. I just never felt I had any control of the treatment. I feel like Aligners were originally intended for those adult patients who had money and did not want traditional braces. They could afford the larger down payment necessary to cover the initial cost of the aligners.

    Enter your average patient looking for financing and lower cost treatment (i.e Corp patients) and the initial upfront cost of aligners is too much. Add additional aligners, scans (impressions) when the treatment isn't tracking properly and all of a sudden .... the ROI per appt becomes less and less. Yes .... additional aligners is no charge (comprehensive cases, maybe other cases??), but YOUR time is valuable.
     
  2. Cold Front

    Cold Front Supreme Member
    Dentist Verified Expert 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,660
    Likes Received:
    764
    Status:
    Dentist
    Corporate is pimping dentistry and the exploitation will only get worse. Have you heard of Candid Co.? They are exactly that!

    upload_2018-12-28_22-52-49.jpeg

    upload_2018-12-28_22-49-49.jpeg

    upload_2018-12-28_22-50-18.jpeg


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox6no...n-their-teeth-for-a-fraction-of-the-cost/amp/
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. 2TH MVR

    2TH MVR Orthodontist
    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    678
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Status:
    Dentist
    @Cold Front ....
    Totally agree. It's inevitable. If there is a way to make easy money .... deep pocketed non-dental types will find a way to do it. Both the doctors and the patients will be exploited in some way. Mostly the patients. The cycle will never end.

    Look at eyewear. I've been going to LensCrafters for years. Never gave it a thought. A large corporate entity that employs an optometrist. Why wouldn't an intelligent person such as myself go to an independent optometrist with their own private practice? Eyes are just as important if not more so than teeth. Right? Yet most of the population blindly (pun) walks into a Corp Eye Center for our eye exams and glasses.

    Convenience is the new Corp mantra going forward and making $$$$$ off of it. Look at Carvana.

    Aligner treatment is attractive to these Corp types mostly because it is SAFE. Not invasive. Lets be real. ANYONE can order up some mysteriously diagnosed and treatment planned set of aligners for a patient. Think some "orthodontic expert :)" in India, Mexico, Pakistan, etc. etc. No one ever died from poor posterior occlusion. Front teeth look straight which is all most patients want. Hell .... you can even bleach your teeth with the aligners.

    New dentists .... go rural. The rural areas offer the last area where a person can open and have a traditional dental practice. If I was starting out .... that's what I would do. Although I do love Scottsdale. :)
     
    whatisit350 and Cthuluhoop like this.
  4. Cthuluhoop

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    126
    Status:
    Pre-Dental
    How do you find good rural areas, networking while in dental school?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  5. 2TH MVR

    2TH MVR Orthodontist
    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    678
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Status:
    Dentist
    if you went to a DS in the rural Midwest like I did .... Plenty of local PT attendings to network with.
    When I 1st graduated. My mother lived in a small town a few hours away from Phoenix. I used to visit her every month. One day I ran into the local dentist. There were only 2 dentists and no specialists in this small town. He literally BEGGED me to work in his office to see his ortho patients. So I did. He charged me NO rent. Of course I treated his children for free.
    Point is. I Loved the simplicity of practicing in a small town.
    This was 26 yrs ago. I'm no longer there since the drive (3 hrs) was getting annoying. Today? There are still only 2 GPs there and NO Corps.
     
    whatisit350 likes this.
  6. Cold Front

    Cold Front Supreme Member
    Dentist Verified Expert 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,660
    Likes Received:
    764
    Status:
    Dentist
    When will you retire? I don’t see myself working 20 years in dentistry, it’s only been 8 so far and I feel exhausted already. lol
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. 2TH MVR

    2TH MVR Orthodontist
    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    678
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Status:
    Dentist
    I have no set time table on retiring. I'm still youthful at age 56. Transitioning to Corp from private practice has reduced all the stress from running multiple offices. I just show up. Enjoy the social interaction that work provides. Git paid. I'll know when it's time to slow down.

    Don't get me wrong. Work does not define me. I have definite goals (materialistic and non-materialistic) to enjoy my life while I am still healthy.

    As for yourself. Well ....sounds like you've accomplished a lot in those 8 years. I'm sure those accomplishments will provide you the option to pursue other interests if dentistry becomes burdensome.

    To get this back to SDN. Predents ..... graduate with the least amount of DS debt. Establish financial independence as soon as you can. This will allow you to have options later in your life. Believe me. Time goes fast.
     
    charlestweed likes this.
  8. Cold Front

    Cold Front Supreme Member
    Dentist Verified Expert 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,660
    Likes Received:
    764
    Status:
    Dentist
    I think you still have 20 years of orthodontics career left in you, since the field is not physically demanding.

    As for me, I’m 40 now. I’m taking everything by the year. Even now, I do a lot of things I enjoy. I am an avid reader of a variety of information that has nothing to do with dentistry. I am very curious about the world, and generally do not stick to local or national developments and progress. If you asked me today where I see myself in 10+ years, I could give you 5 different answers. My wife is from Australia and I could see myself there. I grew up in Europe, I could be there too. I was born in Africa, and I wouldn’t rule that out too. I’m very fascinated about parts of Asia and South America, and I wouldn’t be surprised if I end up over there. I think being human and seeing and understanding the world is the ultimate satisfaction for anyone, but not everyone has the luxury of time and opportunity to do so. My experiences growing up outside the US taught me to think very broadly about life, and living in the states taught me how to think, work hard and enjoy the few things you love the most over other things. It’s very two different experiences that the few appreciate. I’m optimistic, despite the doom and gloom path dentistry is on, today’s dentists will fair just fine in the long run.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #58 Cold Front, Dec 30, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  9. CHRG

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2016
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    14
    The last thing you wrote is exactly how I think as a multicultural immigrant myself. Scary resemblance.
     
  10. charlestweed

    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes Received:
    653
    Status:
    Dentist
    This is why many dental students are trying their best to get into ortho. Unlike most jobs, ortho doesn’t wear you out physically and mentally and therefore, you can work for a long time. I don’t think I will retire at 65 because I would go crazy if I stay home every day doing nothing….I can’t just take vacation 365 days/year. It’s also hard to let go an easy job that pays well. Right now, I work a lot of days not because I have to but because I really enjoy making money. It’s very satisfying to see myself getting closer and closer to fulfill the financial goal that I set for myself. It makes me feel good every time a new patient accepts the treatment at my office. I am happy (and I know my staff are not but I don’t care) to stay late to put the ortho brackets on the new patient….money, money, money!!! I actually enjoy coming to work more when I have a busy non-stop day. Some of my colleagues make their receptionists adhere to a certain appointment template (ie 1 hour for bonding, ½ hour for a quick adjustment etc) so they can have a more controlled relaxed work schedule. For me, there is no template….the more patients I have on my appt book, the happier I will be.
     
  11. desertrat12

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    66
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    This is one thing I don’t quite understand about some of my fellow students/recent grads...they more or less complain about being worked like a dog at corporate. But so far, none of them are putting in the hours of my buddies who work at investment banks/or even other jobs. I get there is a big problem with debt to income ratio that keeps getting worse, encroaching corporate, declining reimbursements, etc etc...but the hustle seems to be lacking in some. Maybe the classic idea of the easy dental life is too powerful to let go, but hustle is still worth a lot even in today’s dental landscape. It seems like a privilege if you land in a place that has enough patients to “work you like a dog”. I’m probably ignorant and don’t understand the physical toll, but being worked like a dog seems like the best way to make some money when paid as a percentage of production.

    Pray I’ve got charlestweed’s hustle even after a number of years practicing!
     
  12. Cold Front

    Cold Front Supreme Member
    Dentist Verified Expert 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,660
    Likes Received:
    764
    Status:
    Dentist
    Dentists are just picky and somewhat spoiled towards where they want to practice, the income they want to earn, the type of cases they would like to do, and the lifestyle they wish to lead. I have lost few associates who literally said “I will look for a job that I can earn more for less work”. These associates had a good contract/deal with my office, and yet, they always felt the grass can be greener. The problem with most dentists is that they simply don’t understand the concept of a “really hard work” and “patience” are pre-requisites to everything. My first associate job was 2 hours commute, and paid $450 a day. Yes, I had $280k in student loans at the time, but I only took that job because of the mentor that came with the office. I worked hard to learn from the lead dentist and after 6 months I moved on to build my practice from scratch and 7 years later I finally have what most dentists want out of dentistry. You only “work like a dog” if that’s what you have to do to get to where you need to be, that can be said about everything that leads to a successful outcome. I believe anyone who works hard sooner than later will be getting to their goals sooner than later. The complaints about dentistry is that the hard work is getting harder and the goals are getting longer to achieve.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    charlestweed and TotobyAfrica like this.
  13. 2TH MVR

    2TH MVR Orthodontist
    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    678
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Status:
    Dentist
    I think part of the issue with associates at a successful private practice is that they become somewhat jealous of the owner's life. I mean. It's right there in front of them. They can see how successful the owner dentist is due in some part to their employment. Why am I working for another dentist when I am a dentist? The next step for them is ownership which is most likely the goal of most.

    A little different in Corp. You don't see the owner directly. So ... the mentality of an associate working at a private office vs Corp is different. In Corp .... we're ALL employees. My boss is an employee and their boss is an employee and so on.

    I would think it would be difficult to hire a long term associate in a private practice.
    What's worse for an associate? To pad the pockets of the owner dentist who they see most days leaving the office in a brand new BMW or the invisible hedge fund owner whom you never see?

    Regardless. I only have ONE boss. A formidable force to be reckoned with. My WIFE. :eek:
     
  14. Cold Front

    Cold Front Supreme Member
    Dentist Verified Expert 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,660
    Likes Received:
    764
    Status:
    Dentist
    I agree 100%. This stark contrast in associates at private practice vs corporate office never dawned on me. Since I have only been an associate for 6 months in my 8 years career, I have only seen the associate in private practice issue from the “boss” perspective. Psychologically, associates respond to the milestones another dentist in the office (usually the Boss) have accomplished - which is the beginning of them handing their pink slip. So for, only one of my associates didn’t fall into this trap. He is in his early 50’s, an empty nester, all kids are adults and left the house, and wife has a full time job. He has no debt and lives a very frugal life. I onced thought he would leave too someday after seeing other younger associates leave my office. He worked for few corporate offices before he joined my practice, and I think he is done with being pushed around to hit corporate style goals at this stage of his career. He also doesn’t work at the same office as I do, so that’s another factor of him not seeing me leaving in my Porsche - which I personally think he wouldn’t care in his situation. In any case. this is a battle of associate retention the corporates win over private practices.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  15. charlestweed

    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes Received:
    653
    Status:
    Dentist
    I used to work like a dog too because I was slow and didn't have any experience. I used to stress out over every little thing. Sometimes, I had to work through lunch and got home late. But then when I saw how much harder my cousin, who is an anesthesiologist, had to work and he didn't make anywhere near what I made, I felt much better about my job. My cousin and I went to the same undergrad university and he was so much smarter than me. I thought he would have a much brighter future because he got accepted to med school and I only had good enough grade for dental school.

    As I gained more experience, everything has become a lot easier. Now working at a corp is like being on a vacation. So there is no reason for me to walk away from such easy job that pays well. I am working at the corp right now....yes, on a New Year's Eve...I will be done by 4pm but I usually get out at 3:15-3:30pm.

    I am not the only one. Most orthodontists, whom I met at the corp meetings, also work like me: 1/2 of their time at the corp and 1/2 of their time at their own offices. And they all love their jobs. Who doesn't love making a lot of money?
     
    #65 charlestweed, Dec 31, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
    Steins;Gate likes this.
  16. Pedopearls

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    As a small private group practice owner in a semi rural area in Ga, I am finding it is really difficult to find new graduates to hire. We are always competing with the corporate dental chains even though we have an equally good offer! How do we get the word out to these new grads that there are private options out there! Recruiters just tell us it will be tough to find people bc we are rural ( but still only an hour outside Atlanta). We sometimes feel like the David to the corporate Goliath.... I wish there was a better way to gain access to new grads bc there is no way we will have the resources the corporate chains have to recruit... I can’t imagine graduating dental school these days... seems like such a different world than when I graduated about 13 years ago. I literally typed an email and just sent it out to the practices in the area I was going asking if anyone wanted an associate... I wasn’t approached by one corporate chain back then
     
  17. Pedopearls

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    So what is the best way to reach out to dental students these days? I’m in a small group practice in a semi rural area in GA and we pay really well! We still have a hard time connecting with the students.... We will never have the resources corporate has, but we have just as good if not a better place for a new grad. We are always looking to hire! Considering I graduated close to 15 years ago... what gets the students these days talking? We are really trying hard to exhaust any avenue to beat corporate to the new grad but it is proving tough.
     
  18. Cold Front

    Cold Front Supreme Member
    Dentist Verified Expert 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,660
    Likes Received:
    764
    Status:
    Dentist
    The short answer is.... Corporations offer better benefits (medical insurance, PTO’s, sign on bonuses, a better safety net in general) to associates than private practices every year. Corporate positions today are more attractive than corporate positions TEN years ago, but less attractive than the positions TEN years from today. Another reason is... corporations have dedicated team to recruit new associates, who have the time and resources than private practices. I get 10 calls a week for a corporate position, and I own 2 private practices and don’t even read the texts, listen voicemails and open emails from recruiters. If corporations are reaching out to me as a multiple private practice owner, that means they already exhausted every associate out there they could before they got to me. Can you do that as a private practice owner? Nope!

    To future associates reading this, corporations are like the monsters from the Netflix movie - Bird Box. You just have to cover your eyes (and ears)... because if you don’t, they take your soul.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #68 Cold Front, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
    Cthuluhoop and BasicG like this.
  19. desertrat12

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    66
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    You just reached out to me! Give me 2 more years of school and hire me, my wife and I love rural - and 1 hour outside of Atlanta sounds pretty nice considering the closest Atlanta-like town from my hometown was 4 hours away.

    To answer your question though, I’m not sure the best way. Only a handful of my classmates are going the extra mile, contacting private practice owners in areas they would like to work. The others are just assuming that they will start looking for corporates in their 4th year and go from there.

    My school has a job board, and perhaps others do as well. Maybe sending job ads to dental schools to place on their job boards.

    There are also Facebook groups that have a good number of dental students that would be a good place to find associates.

    The The Can Dentist – Don't let the perfect opportunity pass you by. is one place a few of us have looked to before as it has had job openings, but just looking at it today it looks a little outdated now.

    Hope some of those suggestions can spark a few ideas! Sounds like you’ve got a great practice set up!
     
  20. Pedopearls

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Than
    Thank you for the info! I will definitely check that out. I’ve thought about FB groups too, but some of those are closed groups.... I just don’t want to be some dental office recruiting on a piece of paper that gets thrown away with the junk mail. Even though we have four locations, we still have such a hard time competing with corporate chains for assaciates. I guess we need to start visiting dental schools, so students know there are still private group practices out there that will not treat you like a production number. Corporate is NOT the only option to get your speed up and make good money before buying in or starting your own practice.... Good Luck in your last two years! Keep in touch and you got a job in GA when you finish!
     
    desertrat12 likes this.
  21. desertrat12

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    66
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    Wish I had more ideas for you. 2 Facebook groups that might be worth joining (I’m sure there are others, these are just some that I visit and know other student that do also) is the makingmoneyafterdentalschool group, and the dentalnachos group.

    As for the future, we’ll be in touch. Thanks!
    Best of luck!
     
  22. distressstudent

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    1,028
    Likes Received:
    892
    Status:
    Dental Student
    It goes without saying that the best way to reach out to dental students is through their dental school.

    That's a few times that private practice owners have reached out to us.

    1. Lunch and Learns - Reached out to D3/D4 as representatives of their county's dental association.
    2. E-mailing Office of Student Affairs and have them forward the email to the whole school.
    3. Posting advertisement in the student lounge (but no one ever sees those and I still see ads for practices that was posted 5 years ago)
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  23. Cold Front

    Cold Front Supreme Member
    Dentist Verified Expert 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,660
    Likes Received:
    764
    Status:
    Dentist
    Rural dentistry is a hard sale to most new grads - unless there is a sign on bonus, loan forgiveness/payments, the new grad is actually from that rural area or income is higher than average. Either way, the transition of a new grad to found his/her footing and work at a good pace could take 3-6 months, in some cases a full year. Hiring a new grad is one thing, them turning out to be the intended associate for the practice and retention is another. New grads will come for the right money and benefits, but they will not stay if the finances become of a less priority to something else they want.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  24. desertrat12

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    66
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    Just another example of how many students aren’t willing to put themselves into a position to succeed. Doesn’t make sense to me. Obviously it’s no where near as simple as just go rural to make bank, but with all the complaints for how the market is you’d think new grads would look more fondly towards a more favorable practice location - rural.
     
    AppalachianDentalBoy likes this.
  25. Cold Front

    Cold Front Supreme Member
    Dentist Verified Expert 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,660
    Likes Received:
    764
    Status:
    Dentist
    New grads (Millennials) are opting to move back to their parents home or get a roommate in an urban area the first few years out of school, as a compromise to having a solo lifestyle. This way, they can save money and have the best of both worlds - very high social life of a city and affordable living. “Success” is delayed. Heck, marriage is delayed... having kids are delayed... and so on. That’s the trend, and fewer and fewer grads are choosing to approach life the way generation X and older did. It’s inevitable to see more of the Millennial decisions for future grads and generations.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  26. desertrat12

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    66
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    I guess with my wife and kids and desire to go rural I’m considered a rebel these days lol...but seriously, the trend you’ve laid out is evident and providing the perfect soil for corporate growth. However there are still those of us who want to speed up success as quickly as possible (within ethical constraints of course) and are willing to work at it. When I consider future job options my initial worry is not being able to find busy enough associatships in rural areas. It’s nice to hear from those like Pedopearls that they exist. With the ultimate end game of owning an office myself.
     
  27. charlestweed

    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes Received:
    653
    Status:
    Dentist
    There are several reasons why many dentists don't want to pratice in rural areas:

    1. Their spouses have jobs in big cities. Making less in big cities but having double income is better than having single income. My referring general dentist's husband is a public high school teacher. It took her husband a while to get this good teaching job that offers good retirement benefit and low cost health insurance for the entire family.

    2. Some dentists, especially the asian ones, want to live close to home so they can take care of their elderly parents and their kids can bond with with the grandparents.

    3. Cultural differences. Most Asian and Hispanic patients prefer to see dentists, who are immigrants like themselves. I have patients who drive more than 1 hour each way to my office me because they and I share the same native language. I am not sure if I'd be successful if I set up my practice in rural area, where the majority of the population are White. I am not sure if the general dentists would refer patients to my office when see that I have an Asian last name and I speak with an accent.

    4. People in big cities are more vain and tend to care more about their teeth and their smiles than people in rural areas. I have had a lot of patients who had ortho tx 2-3 times..... for them, a slight overlap of #8 and 9 is not acceptable. When I did my ortho residency in a fairly rural area in a southern state.....the airport is so small and only has 1 international flight (to Canada), I saw many adults walking around with missing front teeth.

    5. Most private practice owners make their associate dentists sign a non-compete clause that will prevent the associates from setting up the offfice within certain mile radius. So if you want to set up your own office, you may have to move to another area that you are not familiar with. In big cities, I can still maintain my full time associate job at a corp (and maintain positive cash flow) when I set up my own office....I am fine as long as my office is 2-3 miles away from the brand office where I work at.
     
    #77 charlestweed, Jan 14, 2019 at 10:40 AM
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019 at 11:14 AM
    AppalachianDentalBoy likes this.
  28. 2TH MVR

    2TH MVR Orthodontist
    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    678
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Status:
    Dentist
    @charlestweed .....
    Working in saturated areas works for you because you've accepted a low fee working environment, work 6 days a week and your spouse makes decent money. I just do not see a new grad with high debt opening a new practice in a saturated area hoping to do well. There is too much competition. I practiced in a saturated area. Even with my past experience and business acumen .... I found it very difficult when every corner had a dentist or Corp office. If I was a new dentist .... I'm heading for an under-served, rural area to open a practice. I'll say it again ... the new patient pie can only be cut into so many pieces.
     
  29. charlestweed

    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes Received:
    653
    Status:
    Dentist
    With significantly lower overhead, my profit margin is similar to those of my colleagues who charge their patients much higher fees. My colleagues are happy with what they make working 3-4 days/week. I chose to work 6-7 days/week in the past because I wanted to make 2x as much as my colleagues so I could pay off my debts as soon as possible.....and I also love switching new cars, that most people my age cannot afford, every 2-3 years. The congratuations letters for paying off debts that I got from the lenders were what motivated me to keep going. Fortunately, ortho is an easy job.

    I have a larger piece of the new patient pie than my colleagues' because they are only interested in seeing the top 20% income earners and largely ignore the bottom 80% income earners. I am interested in seeing 100% of the population. My colleagues ignore the hispanic and asian populations that have increased rapidly....while the birthrate in the US continues to decline. By accepting medicaid/HMO plans and having weekend office hours, that piece of new patient pie gets even larger.

    If my children decide to go to dental school, I hope they'll rank high enough for ortho because practicing general dentistry is hard....both physically and mentally. Right now, ortho is still one of hardest specialties to get into. Hopefully with the opening of new ortho programs and the perception that ortho is dying will stop a lot of good students from applying for ortho....so my kids will have better chance of getting accepted to ortho. I can share with my kids the secrete of keeping the overhead as low as possible and help them succeed....hopefully, they'll listen to me and not think that the way I practice is obsolete
     
    #79 charlestweed, Jan 14, 2019 at 3:50 PM
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019 at 4:22 PM
  30. 2TH MVR

    2TH MVR Orthodontist
    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    678
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Status:
    Dentist
    You're very successful in how you practice. No need to convince myself or others. But I still feel rural is the way to go for the inexperienced, new dentists.
     
  31. desertrat12

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2015
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    66
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    What’s everyone’s thoughts on a high quality gpr 1st our vs busy associatship?

    When I say high quality I’m referring to those that offer good implant training, good endo experience, etc. not just a 5th year of d school.

    The lack of income turns me off from these. But the built in mentorship + more or less a full year long of ce seems like it may help in the long run.
     
  32. charlestweed

    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes Received:
    653
    Status:
    Dentist
    I simply stated the reasons why practicing in big cities is not as bad as what many here have thought and I used my own personal (as well as my GP friends') experience as an example. My point was there are still plenty of opportunities to get new patients in big cities if one doesn't mind reaching out to more people, and not just the top 20% income earners. If there is no opportunity in getting new patients in large cities, then why do corps continue to add more new offices in these areas? They do this because they know a lot of private practices are not willing to reach out to the bottom 80% earners and patients who have HMOs and medicaid. Low overhead is key. If it's not profitable treating medicaid and HMO patients, the corp wouldn't accept these plans.

    Some dentists don't mind treating higher patient volume (to compensate for lower pays) in order to stay in big cities....and enjoy all the things that big cities offer such as good food, nice weather, being closer to their relatives, and other conveniences. These are the rewards for their hard work.
     
    #82 charlestweed, Jan 14, 2019 at 7:40 PM
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019 at 7:54 PM
    BasicG likes this.
  33. 2TH MVR

    2TH MVR Orthodontist
    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    678
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Status:
    Dentist
    We all went to DS to have options on how we practice. That's the beauty of dentistry. You (CharlesTweed) have shown the successful blue print for those dentists wanting to practice in high competition, saturated areas with Corps on every corner, and GP offices that have brought in specialists on the other corners. Your formula relies on hard work, 6 plus days per week, multiple offices, seeing large numbers of patients per day, working for the Corp and low tech/low overhead/ low fees. You are very successful in the way you practice and I encourage ALL young dentists who desire the urban, saturated areas to follow your lead.

    But that pattern of practicing may not be the reason some of us went into dentistry. It wasn't mine. Maybe I'm older and I remember what it was like to have practiced "traditional" FFS dentistry. Work 4 days per week. Have fridays and sats off. Charge a fair fee for exceptional service .... not just some braces.

    Yes ... unfortunately ... those 100% FFS days do not exist anymore. Especially in the urban areas. I mentioned it in a prior post. In a small town 2 1/2 hours outside of Phx .... a local GP asked me to see his ortho referrals. He charged me NO RENT or utilities. He was just happy to have an ortho to refer to rather than sending all his referrals to another city. That small town 26 years ago had TWO general dentists. TODAY ... it still only has TWO general dentists. There are NO CORP offices there. Those two GPs are VERY busy. Can this small town support an ortho full time? Of course not. But we're talking general dentists.
     
    Cold Front likes this.
  34. charlestweed

    Dentist Gold Donor Verified Expert Verified Account 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes Received:
    653
    Status:
    Dentist
    For me and for some of my co-residents, transitioning from ortho residency to working at low fee/low tech corp offices was a huge upgrade. When we were residents, we had to do our own lab work, hand-trace the cephs, call patients for appts, treat patients w/o an assistant etc. I didn't have to do any of these on my first day at the corp and there were 3 assistants who changed all the wires for me. I wonder if ortho programs still teach their residents how to bend wires and make them do all the manual labors like when you and I went to school. This new ortho program (https://www.bracestoday.com/) uses ICAT, prepasted 3M brackets, and other high tech stuff. I think it will be hard for the new grads to adapt to working at the corp when they are spoiled with all these high tech gadgets in their residency.
    When people have insurances, they will try to maximize the insurance benefit by looking for dental offices that accept their plans. For people who don't have insurances, they will try to find dentists/orthodontists who charge reasonable fee. Fortunately for us, orthodontists, we can bypass the insurance companies by offering our own in-house payment plan directly to our patients. It's good that ortho treatments take 2 years to complete....so we can collect the payments from patients every month over the 2 year period.

    The population is not large enough support even one ortho? This is definitely a concern one needs to consider when set up a practice in rural area....is the population growing or shrinking? There must be something really bad about this town and that's why no new dentist has moved to here in the last 20+ years. The conclusion can be made from this discussion is nothing is ideal in life. You have to make sacrifices, regardless of which option you choose: either work less (and make more money) but have to live in an area where no one wants to live in OR work a lot harder (higher patient volume to compensate for lower pays) but are able enjoy all the conviences that the big cities offer.
     
    #84 charlestweed, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:19 PM
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019 at 5:20 PM
  35. Cold Front

    Cold Front Supreme Member
    Dentist Verified Expert 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,660
    Likes Received:
    764
    Status:
    Dentist
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    CHRG likes this.

Share This Page