U of Michigan vs. Wash U

[snowman8]

Hey guys. I hope the Interviews are going well. who do you guys think is the stronger IM residency program, Michigan or Wash U? I've interviewed at both programs and I really liked both. Thanks in advance...

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[1996]

The Wash U and U of Michigan programs are actually very similar both in terms of academic reputation and program quality. I think they are equally strong IM programs. That being said, I think UMich is a little more malignant than Wash U. Having done rotations at both schools, I noticed that UMich works its residents harder than Wash U does. It seems that Wash U residents have a little more free-time and opportunities to pursue research outside of their clinical responsibilities. I consider this an advantage of Wash U over UMich, since a big factor in applying to fellowship is research. Otherwise, I think the programs are pretty similar to each other, both with strong residents and strong fellowship placement. Thus the only other major difference between the two programs is location. It's a matter of personal preference. Personally, I would prefer St. Louis over Ann Arbor because it's a bigger city in itself and it's MUCH cheaper (a big plus given our salaries and debts).

 

[MidwestMD]

While both programs are equally matched in many ways, I'd have to say that U Mich is the stronger of the two. Both programs DO have a strong academic reputation, but I seem to recall being much more impressed w/ the residents and the fellowship placement at Michigan. I think both places would work you pretty hard and strongly disagree w/ Michigan being malignant at all. While it may have been true in the recent past (several yrs ago), it is definitely not the case now. Yes, the residents work their butt off but I think that's true of any top hospital. I dont have a clue as to how else you could run the program. The key is that the residents are still surprisingly happy here (and not in the self-flagellating type of way) and the commraderie here is GREAT. When I finally filled out my rank list last yr (and I still can't believe it was less than a yr ago), it came down to this...gut feeling.

I went in to the Wash U interview expecting something grand, but the hospital felt large and impersonal and I never even laid eyes on the PD the entire interview day (though he supposedly showed up for pizza at the end of the day). One of my interviewers there (who had previously trained at one of the Big 3 programs for the last 20yrs) spent the whole interview unimpressing me w/ the Wash U program while trying to convince me that I "wouldn't be SAD or DISAPPOINTED" if I matched there... which of course led me to believe that they actually didn't want me there. He literally said: "My brother went to medical school here, so the program isn't that bad. A lot of the residents...well...SOME of the residents are very bright."

On the other hand, I went into the UMich interview expecting NOTHING as I thought I had already found my ideal program the day before at UChicago. To my surprise, I was truly blown away by the PD and the quality of the residents I met. Something just clicked for me there and I couldn't get the program out of my head. Great residents, great city (love the trees, restaurants, and culture in Ann Arbor), and great faculty support both in the program office as well on the wards.

2 days before my rank list was due, U Mich supplanted UChicago as #1 while Wash U didn't make it anywhere on my list of 13 programs.

Now please don't interpret this post as Wash U bashing. It's a solid program w/ solid residents. The training you would get at either program would make you a competent and confident doctor. Personally, I just felt that UMich was a MUCH better fit for ME...and that's what it all really boils down to.

Oh, FYI- 2 days after The Match, I received a letter from Wash U that stated..."In this past recent NRMP match, you would have matched at the Wash U IM Program had you chosen to do so..." Go figure...

 

[PCN]

wow, programs where you don't match actually send you a letter stating that you could have matched there. Do all programs do that?

thanks

While both programs are equally matched in many ways, I'd have to say that U Mich is the stronger of the two. Both programs DO have a strong academic reputation, but I seem to recall being much more impressed w/ the residents and the fellowship placement at Michigan. I think both places would work you pretty hard and strongly disagree w/ Michigan being malignant at all. While it may have been true in the recent past (several yrs ago), it is definitely not the case now. Yes, the residents work their butt off but I think that's true of any top hospital. I dont have a clue as to how else you could run the program. The key is that the residents are still surprisingly happy here (and not in the self-flagellating type of way) and the commraderie here is GREAT. When I finally filled out my rank list last yr (and I still can't believe it was less than a yr ago), it came down to this...gut feeling.

I went in to the Wash U interview expecting something grand, but the hospital felt large and impersonal and I never even laid eyes on the PD the entire interview day (though he supposedly showed up for pizza at the end of the day). One of my interviewers there (who had previously trained at one of the Big 3 programs for the last 20yrs) spent the whole interview unimpressing me w/ the Wash U program while trying to convince me that I "wouldn't be SAD or DISAPPOINTED" if I matched there... which of course led me to believe that they actually didn't want me there. He literally said: "My brother went to medical school here, so the program isn't that bad. A lot of the residents...well...SOME of the residents are very bright."

On the other hand, I went into the UMich interview expecting NOTHING as I thought I had already found my ideal program the day before at UChicago. To my surprise, I was truly blown away by the PD and the quality of the residents I met. Something just clicked for me there and I couldn't get the program out of my head. Great residents, great city (love the trees, restaurants, and culture in Ann Arbor), and great faculty support both in the program office as well on the wards.

2 days before my rank list was due, U Mich supplanted UChicago as #1 while Wash U didn't make it anywhere on my list of 13 programs.

Now please don't interpret this post as Wash U bashing. It's a solid program w/ solid residents. The training you would get at either program would make you a competent and confident doctor. Personally, I just felt that UMich was a MUCH better fit for ME...and that's what it all really boils down to.

Oh, FYI- 2 days after The Match, I received a letter from Wash U that stated..."In this past recent NRMP match, you would have matched at the Wash U IM Program had you chosen to do so..." Go figure...

 

[MidwestMD]

Hmm, after re-reading my lengthy post, I realize just how arrogant that last line came out. Sorry

In regards to post-match letters, I'm not sure how common they are. I received letters from 5 academic programs to the same effect. Almost all were from the Midwest so maybe it's just a cultural thing? The whole point is to find out WHY applicants picked a different program and what they could do to improve. I have heard that programs receive a list of where the applicants they ranked matched regardless. Anyways, I have no idea how common this practice is and don't think it means anything if you didn't get a post-match letter. Heck, I never received a post-interview letter from 3 of the programs that sent me post-match letters, so go figure?

 

[kingofhearts]

While both programs are equally matched in many ways, I'd have to say that U Mich is the stronger of the two.

I disagree for several reasons.

Both programs DO have a strong academic reputation, but I seem to recall being much more impressed w/ the residents and the fellowship placement at Michigan.

Institutions that Wash U residents have gone for fellowships in the last 3 years (by no means comprehensive):
Cards: Cleveland Clinic, UCSF, Duke, Texas Heart, UCLA, UTSW, UAb, Tufts, William Beaumont, Wash U
GI: Johns Hopkins, UCSF, U of Chicago, Baylor, Vanderbilt, Brown, CWRU, Wash U
Pulmonary: National Jewish, U Penn, Wash U
Allergy: National Jewish, Brigham, Wash U
Heme-onc: MD Anderson, Johns Hopkins, Duke, Mayo, U of Chicago, U of M, Wash U
Renal: UCLA, Cornell, Wash U
Rheum: Brigham, UTSW, Wash U

I think both places would work you pretty hard and strongly disagree w/ Michigan being malignant at all. While it may have been true in the recent past (several yrs ago), it is definitely not the case now. Yes, the residents work their butt off but I think that's true of any top hospital. I dont have a clue as to how else you could run the program. The key is that the residents are still surprisingly happy here (and not in the self-flagellating type of way) and the commraderie here is GREAT.

Our program has ALWAYS had a well-deserved reputation for a benign and collegial training environment. Almost all of our attendings are excellent teachers (not surprising since we have the #2 ranked medical school in the country). Despite the fact that many are authorities in their fields (our cards, pulmonary, renal, heme-onc, GI, allergy and endo departments are ranked among the top in nation as well), I am on a first-name basis with several faculty members. I have also had ample time to design my own research project (our C-STAR program gives you protected research time) which was also funded by our medicine department (via our Mentors in Medicine program). Finally, I authored a chapter in the upcoming Washington Manual Pulmonary Medicine Consult Handbook (another perk to being a resident here).

Camaraderie among the residents here is also great. We routinely go out (I average a minimum of 2 times a week) and pride ourselves on taking care of each other. Last year, when faced with a family emergency, many of our residents (on electives and vacation) freely volunteered to cover for me. Our call schedule is fair, yet the program is always searching for ways to improve upon it, and is very receptive to feedback.

I went in to the Wash U interview expecting something grand, but the hospital felt large and impersonal

Strange. That was exactly the same impression I had of University of Michigan when I interviewed there for residency.

Let's be honest; it's hard to size up a program based upon the interview day alone. You meet a tiny microcosm of a large institution, and then generalize that limited experience to the entire program. I cannot explain why you had such a strange interaction with your interviewer, but I can confidently say that none of my interactions in the last three years have ever been so negative.

Oh, FYI- 2 days after The Match, I received a letter from Wash U that stated..."In this past recent NRMP match, you would have matched at the Wash U IM Program had you chosen to do so..." Go figure...

As I mentioned earlier, our program actively seeks feedback. Our PDs wish to learn what they can do to make the next year's interview season an even better experience for our applicants. You may interpret this as a sign of weakness, but I see it as a strength.

Now please don't interpret this post as Wash U bashing.

Now, why would we think that? Let's see...
#1: You start off by saying that U of M is stronger than Wash U
#2: You say that the residents and fellowship placement are better at U of M
#3: You describe our hospital as large and impersonal
#4: You say how you didn't place Wash U on your rank list
#5: You describe a letter from our program saying that you could have matched there afterwards (which you do apologize for in a later post).

The training you would get at either program would make you a competent and confident doctor. Personally, I just felt that UMich was a MUCH better fit for ME...and that's what it all really boils down to.

I agree with you that it all boils down to fit. I chose Wash U for several reasons:

#1. Great academic reputation
#2. Great reputation as a benign place to train
#3. Variety of research opportunities available to residents
#4. Fellowships. Nearly all of our fellowship programs here are excellent. Our residents are clearly respected by our faculty, as many are invited to stay as fellows. Yet, as you can see from the list above, we have no problems getting positions at top institutions elsewhere in the country.
#5: Ease of living.

Having lived in Chicago for 24 years, I can tell you that St. Louis is also a great city. Having also visited Ann Arbor multiple times during undergrad, I know weather there is pretty similar to Chicago. My significant other hates cold weather, and clearly wanted a more moderate climate. I wanted to stay in the Midwest. Believe me, St. Louis has some of the mildest weather you can get in this region of the country (we are on average 10 degrees warmer, with far less snow than Chicago). Cost of living here is also much better than Chicago. I was surprised to learn how expensive it is to live in Ann Arbor (I found this out when I was interviewing at U of M last year for cardiology fellowships). Ann Arbor is a fun college town, but I wanted to live in a larger city. While St. Louis is not as big as Chicago, there is still plenty to do. Although I'm not single, I can tell you that meeting people here is not a problem.

I cannot comment on the residents at U of M, nor their ability to get into fellowships. Frankly, I don't know U of M's program well enough to make those judgements. What I do know is that our own program is excellent. Our residents are strong, and our ability to get into competitive fellowships is beyond question. We are all entitled to our own opinions, so I will not argue with what impression MidwestMD received when he interviewed here as a medical student. But I strongly disagree with Midwest MD's assertion that our residents and fellowship placement are somehow inferior. To make such statements about a program that one knows little about is naive at best; ignorant and foolish at worst.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Being a student at Michigan, I believe that IM at my institution is quite malignant. If you're interested in academics, both institutions are strong; however, WashU>>Michigan. If you're MD/PhD, don't even look at Michigan, especially if you're thinking of short-tracking medicine. Michigan is not big into people who want to short-track.

From talking to residents at both institutions, both WashU and Michigan can be considered malignant. You will get worked very hard at both. If you look at residency as an investment (the work you put in vs. the benefits you get based on perceived reputation), WashU, which in my mind has a higher reputation, will serve you better.

There are so many students at Michigan who HATE internal medicine after doing their rotations here. I can't speak for the students at WashU with respect to their rotation experiences. But, if many Michigan medical students think of IM as the worst rotation out of the 3rd year clerkships, I think this says something.

 

[kingofhearts]

Being a student at Michigan, I believe that IM at my institution is quite malignant. If you're interested in academics, both institutions are strong; however, WashU>>Michigan. If you're MD/PhD, don't even look at Michigan, especially if you're thinking of short-tracking medicine. Michigan is not big into people who want to short-track.

From talking to residents at both institutions, both WashU and Michigan can be considered malignant. You will get worked very hard at both. If you look at residency as an investment (the work you put in vs. the benefits you get based on perceived reputation), WashU, which in my mind has a higher reputation, will serve you better.

There are so many students at Michigan who HATE internal medicine after doing their rotations here. I can't speak for the students at WashU with respect to their rotation experiences. But, if many Michigan medical students think of IM as the worst rotation out of the 3rd year clerkships, I think this says something.

FYI: Our program loves strong MD/PhD applicants. Most of our MD/PhD house officers short track into fellowships (only 2 years of IM residency + guaranteed fellowship placement). A very sweet deal.

 

[PCN]

hi,

i was wondering why do most med students at umich hate the IM program, and why do they consider it malignant. Can you give some examples?

thanks

Being a student at Michigan, I believe that IM at my institution is quite malignant. If you're interested in academics, both institutions are strong; however, WashU>>Michigan. If you're MD/PhD, don't even look at Michigan, especially if you're thinking of short-tracking medicine. Michigan is not big into people who want to short-track.

From talking to residents at both institutions, both WashU and Michigan can be considered malignant. You will get worked very hard at both. If you look at residency as an investment (the work you put in vs. the benefits you get based on perceived reputation), WashU, which in my mind has a higher reputation, will serve you better.

There are so many students at Michigan who HATE internal medicine after doing their rotations here. I can't speak for the students at WashU with respect to their rotation experiences. But, if many Michigan medical students think of IM as the worst rotation out of the 3rd year clerkships, I think this says something.

 

[MidwestMD]

Let me first start off by apologizing for obviously offending you or anyone else. I can honestly say that it was NOT my intention. My WHOLE point was to give MY perspective on the differences between the 2 programs and I freely admit that some of my comments were ignorant and showed poor form (ie- my interviewer's backhanded comment about the quality of the residents). I am a little taken aback though by the tenacity of your reply. I never said it was "inferior" to U Mich, a semantics dispute I guess.

To address certain points that you brought up:

1. Fellowship Placement- You're right. Wash U has great fellowship placement. Don't dispute that at all. I merely stated that I "recall" being more impressed w/ Michigan's stats. Here's how U Mich did... (also not comprehensive)

Cards: U of Mich, Cleveland Clinic, UCSF, Duke, Hopkins, UCLA, Northwestern, Wash U, U of Washington, Vandy, BID.

GI: U of Mich, MGH, UCSF, UofChicago, Stanford, Vandy, U Penn, UVa, UofWashington

Pulmonary: U of Mich, U of Colorado, UCSF, U Pittsburgh

Allergy: U of Cinncinnati

Heme-onc: U of Mich, Dan Farber/Harvard, Sloan-Kettering, Mayo, U of Washington, UNC, Stanford

Renal:U of Mich, UCSF, U Penn, U of Washington, Cleveland Clinic

Rheum: ???

ID: U of Mich, U of Washington, CDC

**Disclaimer- KingofHearts' list is more accurate as it mentions placement for the past 3 yrs only while my list encompasses placement from '96-'02. Unfortunately, I don't have a list that narrowed it down that much and this is what I saw on my interview day. I'm curious as to our placement over the past 3 yrs as well.

2. Research- I agree, Wash U is better suited for those w/ a strong interest in research. And yes, research is important in landing top fellowships. As an intern at UMich, you honestly don't have a lot of free time to pursue research. Yes, the hardcore interns make time and it IS possible (and the opportunity to get involved is definitely there), but it's not easy due to time constraints. For me, research doesn't get me excited in the morning but I definitely feel that it's very important for one's' training. I specifically picked Michigan because it was one of the few programs I interviewed at that FORCED residents to do a senior research project. Admittedly, a little late for applications but great for your overall training. And residents have obviously placed well regardless over the yrs.

3. Camaraderie- Interesting. That's great that your class is so close. I actually feel the exact same way about my classmates and the upper level residents. In fact, I had a death in my family this year and was also amazed and touched at how caring and accomadating the PD, the CMRs, and my fellow interns were at helping me take some time off as well. I think that says alot about both programs in the end.

4. Post-Match Letter- Man, I NEVER meant it to be a slight when I mentioned that Wash U sent me, "the most perfect and highly sought-after applicant of 2004" a post match letter. I was honestly just trying to emphasize how random this whole process is and how you just have to sit back and be able to laugh at it everyonce in a while. I truly think that it's great that some programs do that. It's a sign of humility and a true desire to improve. I actually had a lot of respect for the programs who sent the letters.

5. Interview Day Impressions-
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"Let's be honest; it's hard to size up a program based upon the interview day alone. You meet a tiny microcosm of a large institution, and then generalize that limited experience to the entire program."
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I agree wholeheartedly...but how else do you propose we should go about it. Isn't that the whole point? Yes, yes, you can read all about the program and talk to all your friends, family members, and aquaintances who ever trained there or near there... but it all boils down to how it "felt" to you. This coming from the guy who made a detailed, Excel spreadsheet rating 11 different categories for each program and assigning a point-system (which was also weighted, mind you). And in the end, I was lucky enough that my gut matched my list (or was that more of a self-fulfilling prophecy? I like to think not ).

6. Wash U Bashing- I believe that there's a distinct difference between one's opinion/criticisms vs slandering. Again, semantics. I NEVER said Wash U resident's were inferior to UMich, I was quoting an interviewer's opinion about his own program. Could I have omitted that statement, yes. Poor form on my part. Either way, can't we all just get along?

7. Wash U Props-
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#1. Great academic reputation
#2. Great reputation as a benign place to train
#3. Variety of research opportunities available to residents
#4. Fellowships. Nearly all of our fellowship programs here are excellent. Our residents are clearly respected by our faculty, as many are invited to stay as fellows. Yet, as you can see from the list above, we have no problems getting positions at top institutions elsewhere in the country.
#5: Ease of living.
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I agree w/ you. Again, it's all about personal fit and I was simply sharing my perspective. And as a side note...it is hecka expensive in Ann Arbor considering how small a town it is. That does suck. ...and so do the roads. And so does the traffic. And so do Michigan drivers...Hmm, maybe I HATE Michigan instead.

 

[kingofhearts]

Midwest MD,

I believe we can agree on these points:

1. Both of our programs are strong and affiliated with well-respected universities.
2. Both offer excellent training and outstanding fellowship placement.
3. Both are located in different cities that will cater to different people.

I have always believed that the three best internal medicine residencies in the Midwest are in no particular order: Washington University, University of Michigan and University of Chicago.

While there are other good medicine programs in the Midwest, these three are truly in their own tier. We are rightfully proud of being a part of them. Other programs may offer top-tier fellowships (CCF & Mayo), but still recruit consistently from our three programs for future fellows.

Anyone who matches at these three programs will be surrounded by bright faculty, skilled residents and numerous research opportunities. These programs do offer different locations, different costs of living and different class sizes (Wash U and U of M having larger class sizes than U of C). Applicants will need to carefully weigh these factors when they set up their rank list. In the end, matching at any of these three programs will give one all the pieces necessary to become a great clinician and compete for the best fellowships.

 

[vitaminjb]

I am a student at Michigan, interviewed at both, adore Michigan's program and liked Wash U very, very much as well.
I think the programs are very similar and honestly if you are trying to decide between the two, just go on your gut. The residents at Michigan are happy and after intern year, the workload gets much lighter. Also, by the end of intern year, they are really, really, really good. I don't think that's different at Wash U and I think it's a waste of time to try to argue that one is better than the other. It's all about personal fit and where you really think you'd be happy. The only big differences I noticed were size (Michigan is smaller) and that Wash U has private mds while Michigan has none.

The statement that most med students hate their med rotation is a huge overexaggeration. In class surveys Medicine actually had the highest evaluations overall for all the clerkships. Plenty of students love their medicine rotation at Michigan, too; like anything people can have different experiences based on their personal preference for medicine, whether or not they like their attending or residents, etc. Folks in my class who didn't like it was because they had some attendings who made them round really late post-call and students, unlike residents, aren't officially held to 80h. (yet) There are a handful of attendings like that but most aren't. People have crappy experiences on rotations and hate them in any discipline and at any med school. Be careful to get balanced opinions if that is what you are basing your opinion on. I wouldn't venture to compare our medicine rotations to those at other schools since thankfully I've only gone to one medical school and I don't have a large network of friends in medical school to compare with, but I was extremely happy. Though I'm always happy.

 

[Jamezuva]

Midwest MD,

I believe we can agree on these points:

1. Both of our programs are strong and affiliated with well-respected universities.
2. Both offer excellent training and outstanding fellowship placement.
3. Both are located in different cities that will cater to different people.

I have always believed that the three best internal medicine residencies in the Midwest are in no particular order: Washington University, University of Michigan and University of Chicago.

While there are other good medicine programs in the Midwest, these three are truly in their own tier. We are rightfully proud of being a part of them. Other programs may offer top-tier fellowships (CCF & Mayo), but still recruit consistently from our three programs for future fellows.

Anyone who matches at these three programs will be surrounded by bright faculty, skilled residents and numerous research opportunities. These programs do offer different locations, different costs of living and different class sizes (Wash U and U of M having larger class sizes than U of C). Applicants will need to carefully weigh these factors when they set up their rank list. In the end, matching at any of these three programs will give one all the pieces necessary to become a great clinician and compete for the best fellowships.

Did you leave out UTSW on purpose or intentionally wrt the best midwest programs?

 

[kingofhearts]

Did you leave out UTSW on purpose or intentionally wrt the best midwest programs?

Intentionally; I do not consider Texas part of the Midwest. Many people would agree.

http://dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Countries/United_States/Regions/Midwest/States/

http://geography.about.com/library/misc/blmidwest.htm

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/statesbw/midwest/midwest.shtml

I know little about the Texas programs, so I cannot comment on how our program compares to UTSW. That being said, a good number of UTSW medical students leave Dallas every year to join our residency program (and usually become some of our best residents). Many UTSW residents also choose to come here for fellowship as well.

 

[kafka]

As a current student at Michigan, I can tell you from first-hand experience that at least during internship year, Michigan does not even attempt to make the 80hr week. Interns routinely work 36+ hours consecutively (seen 40+) and 100+ hours a week (seen 120+). If they tell you otherwise, they are lying to you. It may be a great place to train, but know what you're in for.

 

[kingofhearts]

Wash U is VERY compliant with the RRC guidelines. 2 months ago, time cards were collected on every internal medicine rotation. The results showed that we have nearly 100% compliance with the 80 hour week.

Although interns do spend the night, they are REQUIRED to leave by 1PM. Any work that remains is signed out to the resident (who left the previous evening at 8PM). Most importantly, the PGY-2s, PGY-3s and attendings understand the importance of adhering to the RRC guidelines: it is never considered a sign of weakness for an intern to go at 1PM and leave work for their resident. I have personally seen many of our residents MAKE their interns leave when 1PM arrives. It is this sense of responsibility that has made our work hour efforts so successful.

Our chiefs have arranged our call schedule such that we never have clinic on a post-call day. Also, if there is even a question of a work hour violation, the administration is very agressive about investigating it. Finally, it is our compliance with the RRC guidelines that enabled me to have time to meet my research mentor, design my own study and apply for grants & IRB approval as an intern. Needless to say, this helped significantly when it came time to apply for a fellowship position.

 

[Jamezuva]

kingofhearts: does WashU ever plan to convert over to computerized order entry and/or computerized progress notes?

 

[cwy]

kingofhearts: does WashU ever plan to convert over to computerized order entry and/or computerized progress notes?

From what I heard, Wash U/Barnes-Jewish Hospital will be pilotting its computerized order entry system in a couple of months with the goal of fully implementing it sometime in May this year.

 

[kingofhearts]

kingofhearts: does WashU ever plan to convert over to computerized order entry and/or computerized progress notes?

cwy is correct. Our program will be piloting a computerized order entry system very soon (1-2 months), with the goal of having the final system in place aound May. Once a computerized order system has been properly implemented, the next goal will be a system for computerized notes.

Housestaff voiced the need to upgrade our current written order system to our program directors. A few months later, the groundwork has been laid for a computerized system.

 

[MidwestMD]

As a current student at Michigan, I can tell you from first-hand experience that at least during internship year, Michigan does not even attempt to make the 80hr week. Interns routinely work 36+ hours consecutively (seen 40+) and 100+ hours a week (seen 120+). If they tell you otherwise, they are lying to you. It may be a great place to train, but know what you're in for.

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I can guarantee you, as an intern at said program, that the U of Michigan does in fact try very hard to adhere to the 80hr work week... so I'm not quite sure where Kafka's "first-hand experience" is coming from. Maybe the surgery dept??? And if on IM, what service? And no, I'm not trying to figure out who you are Just curious.
Yes, you will work hard. Yes, I was post-call twice this week in the Cardiac Intensive Care Unit and got out at 34+ hrs both times (probably average 31-32hrs post call this yr). Yes, almost every intern I've talked to this yr has pulled a difficult week or two (averaging >100hrs/wk) including me, but rest assured that it is DEFINITELY not the norm. The 24+6 rule IS hard to follow, but the 80hr work wk is relatively simple to keep here. Remember, 80hrs is supposed to be the average for 4wks. I honestly average ~76hrs/wk.
Our program is front loaded so the intern yr is definitely the busiest. Fortunately, all the sr's know this and try to help out. I've had numerous seniors stay late to finish MY notes and scut work (staying themselves until 8pm at times) in an attempt to get me out early...not to simply fulfill the 24+6 rule but out of the goodness of their hearts. I've had to hide at times from my attendings or chief residents (as well as our PD and Dept Chair) when I was post-call because I knew how strongly they feel about the issue. Other interns will even ask what they can do to help you get out early, not to mention our day float system which was established soley for this reason. On orientation day, we were even told that the program does not appreciate "cowboys" that ignore the work hour rules and would appreciate our sincere co-operation. I'm just not quite sure what else could be done to encourage and enforce the issue than what I've already witnessed. Point in fact...I thought it was quite amusing that I saw Kafka's quote today considering that our PD had just sent us the following email...(hope I don't get into trouble for posting this).

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"Greetings,

As you all know we have been looking closely at the duty hours and have made several interventions including the MFH service as well as several service model changes to help accommodate the new regulations. The programmatic leadership needs to assess the progress in this domain. In addition, the institution requires that we document all of the duty hours through Medhub. Unfortunately, submission of this information has been sparse lately, decreasing since the beginning of the year, with less than 30% compliance in reporting. It is critical that everyone document their duty hours on medhub on a routine (weekly) basis, independent of the service you are on (inpatient wards, consult service or ambulatory service). Please be complete and accurate in completing this information. All of the information is kept confidential and anonymous. We need to have accurate data from the institution's perspective. Moreover, it is impossible to determine where further adjustments/changes are needed without this information. I know you are very busy, but please document your duty hours in medhub on a weekly basis."
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While it's unfortunate that only 30% of my class is documenting their hours, everyone I've talked to has had a schedule similar to mine (and I DO document my hrs). To me, the above email demonstrates quite clearly how intent the program is on adhering to the ACGME guidelines. Well, since I feel kinda of silly having to defend UofM here, I'll stop. Just wanted you to have all the facts from someone with first-hand experience. And no, I am not lying.

Good luck w/ your decisions everyone!

 

[dr-dre]

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I can guarantee you, as an intern at said program, that the U of Michigan does in fact try very hard to adhere to the 80hr work week... so I'm not quite sure where Kafka's "first-hand experience" is coming from.
Good luck w/ your decisions everyone!

Sorry to burst your sycophantic bubble. I normally don’t post, but after seeing the confused onslaught you’ve written, I felt I had to put in my 2 cents. As another med student at Mich, I must conclude that you’re blind and/or deluded. Yes, the training at our program is great and we do well with fellowships. But, we do have a malignant program because our interns are grossly overworked. The funny part is that you admit this, yet continue to claim our program is not malignant. After all, you only worked 34+ hour shifts twice this week, and you average 31-32 hours post-call in general (hello… RRC violation!). But of course you claim that your experiences this week aren’t representative of what’s really going on. Or are they? You point proudly to a letter which says that only 30% of the residents are reporting their hours. Don’t you find that just a little odd? Why are 70% of the residents not reporting their hours? While our IM department may be trying to make things work, their efforts so far leave a lot to be desired. This leads to my simple point. Interns routinely breaking RRC rules = malignant residency program. Sure, you may be an intern, and me just a student. But this is my second year on the floors. I’ve also done electives at some other programs. Believe me, the way you’re being worked is not the norm at some other respected medicine programs. (I would mention specific names, but given your previous emotionally-labile responses, I don’t think you could handle it). I will rank our program fairly high, but it won’t be my first choice. There are other places I can go where I can get the same training and not be abused. Alas, you’ve been brainwashed to the point of losing your perspective on this problem. I find the image of you running around post-call hiding from chief residents and attendings kinda sad and even a little pathetic. Since you’re the self-appointed defender of our IM department, here’s some advice. Take off your rose-tinted glasses. Maybe then you’ll notice you’re being bent over and taking it up the rear.

 

[ptptt]

HI everyone,


(I really liked some of the chicago programs, ann arbor is far from chicago in every way).
.

Which Chicago programs were you referring to?

thanks