UCLA student dies from lab fire

[gatorsforchrist]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-uclaburn1-2009mar01,0,3624028.story

I just found out about this in my inorganic chemistry class today so I did a search of the forums but found nothing. Terribly sad story. Another tragic reminder regarding lab safety...Her family is in my prayers.

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[Artimacia]

That's just awful

 

[chessknt]

Usually chemicals that are that sensitive to oxygen are use in fume hoods/vacuum containers. Either she was doing something wrong or that lab was ill-equipped/didnt explain the hazards to her. Very odd.

 

[Artimacia]

Usually chemicals that are that sensitive to oxygen are use in fume hoods/vacuum containers. Either she was doing something wrong or that lab was ill-equipped/didnt explain the hazards to her. Very odd.

Yea, it is.

 

[Tiare208]

All of the above apparently.

 

[LittleRocker]

This is terrible. I worked at a BL2 lab at MIT over the summer and they were kinda lax about the rules there. I could show up in a t-shirt and shorts without a lab coat or goggles and no one would care. You think it's not that big a deal cause this kind of thing rarely happens. Labs have become too complacent.

 

[drizzt3117]

Usually chemicals that are that sensitive to oxygen are use in fume hoods/vacuum containers. Either she was doing something wrong or that lab was ill-equipped/didnt explain the hazards to her. Very odd.

she was in a fume hood, but didn't have the visor down low enough according to the article. I'm not particularly surprised as most labs seem pretty lax about safety. It sucks though.

 

[Artimacia]

Even in my cell biology lab I see stuff like this. I've been used to wearing long pants, tie hair out of the way, wear goggles, and closed toed shoes (no lab coats available) but in this class kids wear shorts and sandals all the time, even though he said long pants and sandals. I know it's not that dangerous of a lab set up, but his other lab researchers from different classes and research groups use the lab at the same time as us and work with all sorts of chemicals. It can be dangerous.

 

[amph119]

I work in an organic chemistry lab at my school, and we had a special group meeting to re-discuss safety measures after this story broke. What happened is she was pulling t-butyl lithium (I have personally seen someone work with this in a syringe, the tip of the syringe was on fire, it was crazy) from a pressurized container when she pulled the syringe plunger back too far and out of the syringe, thereby causing t-butyl lithium to be pushed out of the container all over her. It is probably easier to do that then one would think, as the syringes I work with pull back very easily until the plungeri s about 75% of the way out, it then is much tougher to pull. However, sometimes you need about 85% of a syringe's worth of compound. Technically, you are supposed to use a larger syringe, but if the compound isn't dangerous, I pull it from 75% to 85% as needed. However, once you get over about 95%, the plunger will all of the sudden meet almost no resistance, making it very easy to pull completely out. I'm guessing that is what happened here.

Terribly sad story, it really makes you appreciate the power of compounds like that.

 

[easyrock]

christ, I used to work in the lab a few doors down...

Addressing the post above, it wasn't an issue of a lack of escape routes. Witness accounts say that in her panic she moved away from the shower when the fire spread across her. How unfortunate.

safety first friends, safety first

 

[jtimmer1]

We were discussing this in my lab a few days ago. It is kind of strange because we use t-butyl lithium on a weekly basis; it is truly scary stuff, and probably one of the most dangerous things in our lab. Too bad it happened to her.

 

[Aim45S]

This is sad! But what is worst is that a lot of labs do no follow all the safety procedures. I worked in a lab at a med school during summer. While talking to the lab manager one day, she asked me about some of the summer internship programs for son (a high school student). Without hesitation, I mentioned that the lab we were working in is probably the best place for her son to start. She said that she did not want her son to work in the lab because people in the lab (remember she works and is the manager of the same lab) do not follow lab safety procedures and hazardous chemicals and drugs (its a hematology/oncology lab) are left exposed very often.

 

[MUBiomed]

You see that a lot in labs. I know we have suddenly had state inspectors come through our own lab, and despite some pretty blatant safety issues they still give the A-ok signal. Not to say that we are inept, but a true stickler for the rules could probably lay down some pretty nasty fines in almost any lab due to rules and regulations we aren't even aware of.

 

[nick_carraway]

After reading this, I'm thankful that my research lab had a safety uber-Nazi watching over us. I'm sure that having inexperienced undergrads running around made his job that much harder.

I don't see why the article makes such a huge deal about improper chemical storage and lack of lab coats. With such flammable compounds, I find it hard to believe that a cotton coat would've made a bit of difference.

 

[Red Leader]

I don't see why the article makes such a huge deal about improper chemical storage and lack of lab coats. With such flammable compounds, I find it hard to believe that a cotton coat would've made a bit of difference.

uhh...well for one, improper chemical storage was kind of the cause of this whole bizniz. Plus there was a part about how she was wearing some synthetic material that is like "solid fuel."

"Poor training, poor technique, lack of supervision and improper method. This was just not the right way to transfer these things," Langerman said. "She died, didn't she? It speaks for itself."

Brutally put, but true. 3 months on the job, and you're using t-butyl lithium on your own with nobody around? Always have someone around when you're using dangerous crap like that. I hope this girl RIPs and her family gets through this terrible tragedy...the rest of us, we can only learn from their loss.

 

[amph119]

uhh...well for one, improper chemical storage was kind of the cause of this whole bizniz. Plus there was a part about how she was wearing some synthetic material that is like "solid fuel."

No, it wasn't. Read my post above. T-butyl lithium is often sold and shipped to labs under pressurized argon. It is molecular oxygen, not "air," that causes it to ignite. The chemical was properly stored. The issue at hand was simply over-extending an airtight syringe.

 

[Red Leader]

No, it wasn't. Read my post above. T-butyl lithium is often sold and shipped to labs under pressurized argon. It is molecular oxygen, not "air," that causes it to ignite. The chemical was properly stored. The issue at hand was simply over-extending an airtight syringe.

Sorry I counted the syringe as storage. Poor choice of words. Basically I am saying this is a result of poor technique. Don't be lazy and get a bigger syringe. I never understood people who try to cut corners on small things in lab that would only take an extra second or two to do.

 

[amph119]

Sorry I counted the syringe as storage. Poor choice of words. Basically I am saying this is a result of poor technique. Don't be lazy and get a bigger syringe. I never understood people who try to cut corners on small things in lab that would only take an extra second or two to do.

I hear you. At the same time though, I sort of understand what she was thinking, as I fill airtight syringes completely full all of the time, usually only with water, methanol, or at the worst, chloroform. I would never do so with t-butyl Li, however, as I have pulled the plunger out of a syringe countless times. The difference is that it wasn't placed inside a pressurized container, so liquid didn't come flying out of it.

 

[nick_carraway]

Sorry I counted the syringe as storage. Poor choice of words. Basically I am saying this is a result of poor technique. Don't be lazy and get a bigger syringe. I never understood people who try to cut corners on small things in lab that would only take an extra second or two to do.

I think my interpretation of "storage" was a matter of where the compounds were kept (fridge/locker/random shelf), but I see your point.

As for cutting corners instead of doing what should be done, I think that's a fault that's too common outside of lab too.

 

[Red Leader]

I think my interpretation of "storage" was a matter of where the compounds were kept (fridge/locker/random shelf), but I see your point.

As for cutting corners instead of doing what should be done, I think that's a fault that's too common outside of lab too.

I agree. I also never understand people who try to dodge traffic and don't wait for the light to get to the library only to surf facebook for 2 hours or watch youtube.

 

[pianola]

I think the idea was that she had not been trained in how to properly use the chemical.

I knew this girl.

RIP.

 

[nick_carraway]

I think the idea was that she had not been trained in how to properly use the chemical.

I knew this girl.

RIP.

Probably. When's the last time any technique was formally taught to an undergrad? I feel that university labs tend to follow the "see one/do one" method.

 

[amph119]

I guarantee she knew how to remove t-butyl lithium from the container. You don't just throw someone into a lab and say here use t-butyl lithium. Just a momentary lapse of concentration. There is no one to blame in this incident. Other safety violations in the lab is a different story, but this was just a crazy, sad, and unfortunate accident. Thoughts are with the family, RIP

 

[pianola]

I guarantee she knew how to remove t-butyl lithium from the container. You don't just throw someone into a lab and say here use t-butyl lithium. Just a momentary lapse of concentration. There is no one to blame in this incident. Other safety violations in the lab is a different story, but this was just a crazy, sad, and unfortunate accident. Thoughts are with the family, RIP

OK, first of all there were 12 other basic violations found at the location.

Secondly my friend at UCLA says for a fact that no safety techniques of any kind were taught to her. Maybe he's lying but I wouldn't bet on it.

UCLA is going to be paying a LOT of money in damages to the girl's family. It's pretty much a sure thing.

I'm not going to discuss what I know or what I've heard any further in this thread, but suffice it to say, UCLA does not come out of this entirely blameless.

 

[amph119]

OK, first of all there were 12 other basic violations found at the location.

Secondly my friend at UCLA says for a fact that no safety techniques of any kind were taught to her. Maybe he's lying but I wouldn't bet on it.

UCLA is going to be paying a LOT of money in damages to the girl's family. It's pretty much a sure thing.

I'm not going to discuss what I know or what I've heard any further in this thread, but suffice it to say, UCLA does not come out of this entirely blameless.

Well if that is true, that's awful. I wasn't trying to be callous, the whole situation is just surreal, and I am really saddened by the course of events

 

[Lukkie]

OK, first of all there were 12 other basic violations found at the location.

Secondly my friend at UCLA says for a fact that no safety techniques of any kind were taught to her. Maybe he's lying but I wouldn't bet on it.

UCLA is going to be paying a LOT of money in damages to the girl's family. It's pretty much a sure thing.

I'm not going to discuss what I know or what I've heard any further in this thread, but suffice it to say, UCLA does not come out of this entirely blameless.

supposedly we're required to go through special training programs for most things. medical waste management, biohazard training, proper use of hoods (i mean BIOLOGICAL SAFETY CABINETS), etc. i worked at my current place for almost 2 years and somehow bypassed all that and went straight to work. sure enough, after this event, our lab manager was put under pressure and now all us lab folk signed up for this series of like 5 classes we all have to take.

also i didn't realize she was a student... i thought she was just full time technical staff...
edit - i was right - she wasn't a UCLA student.

also, her sister is a harvard medical student

another sad bit - the day before she died, the family got word she was accepted to berkeley law school. girl was going places

 

[JeetKuneDo]

supposedly we're required to go through special training programs for most things. medical waste management, biohazard training, proper use of hoods (i mean BIOLOGICAL SAFETY CABINETS), etc. i worked at my current place for almost 2 years and somehow bypassed all that and went straight to work. sure enough, after this event, our lab manager was put under pressure and now all us lab folk signed up for this series of like 5 classes we all have to take.

also i didn't realize she was a student... i thought she was just full time technical staff...
edit - i was right - she wasn't a UCLA student.

also, her sister is a harvard medical student

another sad bit - the day before she died, the family got word she was accepted to berkeley law school. girl was going places

Yeah, I work with blood for my lab and should be required to take a bloodborn pathogenesis class. It just keeps getting pushed to a later date though.

It's a shame about the last part.

 

[chessknt]

OK, first of all there were 12 other basic violations found at the location.

Secondly my friend at UCLA says for a fact that no safety techniques of any kind were taught to her. Maybe he's lying but I wouldn't bet on it.

UCLA is going to be paying a LOT of money in damages to the girl's family. It's pretty much a sure thing.

I'm not going to discuss what I know or what I've heard any further in this thread, but suffice it to say, UCLA does not come out of this entirely blameless.

/clap for personal responsibility! Clearly it HAD to be someone elses fault and that other party (most likely UCLA, the professor, the syringe mfr, the clothes mfr, the chemical mfr, the doctor, and the hospital that treated her) need to pay money because money teaches lessons... Not.

Just because no safety techniques were formally taught to her does not absolve her of all personal responsibility. Obviously she paid dearly for her lack of interest in lab safety techniques and the chemicals she worked with that were clearly hazardous (dont leave the fume hood up, it defeats its purpose), but the blame cannot be shifted to someone else just because it is tragic, especially when lawsuits come into play. Leave it at policy changes and hospital/funeral bills, no multimillion payouts please.

 

[MJ is KING]

chessknt--Learn to show some sympathy. Somebody passed away. RIP.

 

[student1799]

chessknt--Learn to show some sympathy. Somebody passed away. RIP.

I agree. I'm surprised that she wasn't wearing a lab coat, but if others in her lab never did so (which sounds like the case here), she may have thought it was "wimpy" to insist on it herself. And she clearly wasn't very experienced with t-bu Li, which sounds very dangerous. They should not have allowed her to use this stuff without close supervision until she had more experience in doing so safely.

This is a horribly sad situation that coud have been prevented if there had been more of a culture of safety in the lab. That is where UCLA has a lot to answer for.

 

[ami1983]

Yeah, I work with blood for my lab and should be required to take a bloodborn pathogenesis class. It just keeps getting pushed to a later date though.

It's a shame about the last part.

its bloodborne pathogens. You should take it.

Safety is a culture, and its a hard culture to develop in academic institutions. The blame should be more on her PI than anyone else. They didn't correct the violations from the previous inspection. The PI is the ultimate person who can enforce lab safety.

 

[pianola]

/clap for personal responsibility! Clearly it HAD to be someone elses fault and that other party (most likely UCLA, the professor, the syringe mfr, the clothes mfr, the chemical mfr, the doctor, and the hospital that treated her) need to pay money because money teaches lessons... Not.

Just because no safety techniques were formally taught to her does not absolve her of all personal responsibility. Obviously she paid dearly for her lack of interest in lab safety techniques and the chemicals she worked with that were clearly hazardous (dont leave the fume hood up, it defeats its purpose), but the blame cannot be shifted to someone else just because it is tragic, especially when lawsuits come into play. Leave it at policy changes and hospital/funeral bills, no multimillion payouts please.

I feel like that comment right there should result in an immediate ban.

 

[Chuck's Right Foot]

its bloodborne pathogens. You should take it.

Safety is a culture, and its a hard culture to develop in academic institutions. The blame should be more on her PI than anyone else. They didn't correct the violations from the previous inspection. The PI is the ultimate person who can enforce lab safety.

Atul Gawande summed it up best: DILIGENCE.

RIP. i know I'll learn from this.

 

[nick_carraway]

/clap for personal responsibility! Clearly it HAD to be someone elses fault and that other party (most likely UCLA, the professor, the syringe mfr, the clothes mfr, the chemical mfr, the doctor, and the hospital that treated her) need to pay money because money teaches lessons... Not.

Just because no safety techniques were formally taught to her does not absolve her of all personal responsibility. Obviously she paid dearly for her lack of interest in lab safety techniques and the chemicals she worked with that were clearly hazardous (dont leave the fume hood up, it defeats its purpose), but the blame cannot be shifted to someone else just because it is tragic, especially when lawsuits come into play. Leave it at policy changes and hospital/funeral bills, no multimillion payouts please.

I think speculating after someone has died is pretty insulting. Some of the harsher quotations in the article were only acceptable because those people were privy to documents from the incident.

As for potential litigation, threats to the ledger are unfortunately what institutions respond to the most. They don't make effective policy changes out of the goodness of their hearts, otherwise they would've already been made.

chessknt--Learn to show some sympathy. Somebody passed away. RIP.

 

[chessknt]

My sympathy evaporates instantly when I see people abusing our legal system for financial gain.

 

[Chuck's Right Foot]

My sympathy evaporates instantly when I see people abusing our legal system for financial gain.

if the school was negligent, would it be abuse then? That's what the Lawsuit is for. Sadly due to the egregious sums paid out, we end up settling cases that should be won by the defendant.

 

[chessknt]

if the school was negligent, would it be abuse then? That's what the Lawsuit is for. Sadly due to the egregious sums paid out, we end up settling cases that should be won by the defendant.

Like I said earlier, the student was the most negligent of all. Proper safety equipment was provided, it just wasnt used correctly (we arent talking about anything advanced, this is basic stuff like keep the fume hood down). This country needs to remember how to be personally responsible.

 

[scottyT]

Like I said earlier, the student was the most negligent of all. Proper safety equipment was provided, it just wasnt used correctly (we arent talking about anything advanced, this is basic stuff like keep the fume hood down). This country needs to remember how to be personally responsible.

Even if you consider the employee (she was not a student) to be most negligent, that does not absolve UCLA from their role in this. They still bear at least part of the responsibility for not addressing OSHA concerns in a timely manner and allowing a [reportedly] minimally trained employee to deal with dangerous chemicals in an unsafe manner. Any damages that may be awarded are as much about teaching UCLA a lesson as they are about compensation for the family.

 

[chessknt]

So their role consisted of not giving her a training class? Would you handle a gun if someone handed to you if you had no idea how to use it but knew it could kill you if you did something wrong? I dont think UCLA is entirely blameless, but I dont think that they caused this directly or indirectly either which is what lawsuit payouts are usually made for.

 

[bkz]

dude let it go.

 

[ami1983]

Even if you consider the employee (she was not a student) to be most negligent, that does not absolve UCLA from their role in this. They still bear at least part of the responsibility for not addressing OSHA concerns in a timely manner and allowing a [reportedly] minimally trained employee to deal with dangerous chemicals in an unsafe manner. Any damages that may be awarded are as much about teaching UCLA a lesson as they are about compensation for the family.

It was an internal inspection by their Environmental Health and Safety department, not OSHA. OSHA very rarely inspects academic institutions.

 

[chiz2kul]

dude let it go.

about time he did

 

[hemoglobincell]

/clap for personal responsibility! Clearly it HAD to be someone elses fault and that other party (most likely UCLA, the professor, the syringe mfr, the clothes mfr, the chemical mfr, the doctor, and the hospital that treated her) need to pay money because money teaches lessons... Not.

Just because no safety techniques were formally taught to her does not absolve her of all personal responsibility. Obviously she paid dearly for her lack of interest in lab safety techniques and the chemicals she worked with that were clearly hazardous (dont leave the fume hood up, it defeats its purpose), but the blame cannot be shifted to someone else just because it is tragic, especially when lawsuits come into play. Leave it at policy changes and hospital/funeral bills, no multimillion payouts please.

This is probably the most insensitive thing I've read on these forums. Bull****... every word of it...

 

[pianola]

My sympathy evaporates instantly when I see people abusing our legal system for financial gain.

I'm really not getting into this, but I don't believe her family is suing. It's a CRIMINAL LAWSUIT. As in, brought by the US government.

Because UCLA committed a CRIME. They were criminally negligent, regardless of what you think.

You are really incredible, you know that? Really. Just incredible.

 

[chessknt]

I'm really not getting into this, but I don't believe her family is suing. It's a CRIMINAL LAWSUIT. As in, brought by the US government.

Because UCLA committed a CRIME. They were criminally negligent, regardless of what you think.

You are really incredible, you know that? Really. Just incredible.

That was sort of my point, the laws that dictate whether or not something is negligent are too far-reaching. It isnt UCLA's fault she died, so why do they have to suffer for it? I am not saying it wasnt tragic or sad, just from a practical PoV it isnt fair to blame UCLA.

 

[hippocraticoath]

Ouch! What was she thinking wearing a flammable sweater, no lab coat, and wearing no safety equipment at all? Even the mimimal modicum of care, such as finding out where the lab showers are, running a wikipedia search of the reagents, and actually turning on the ventilation hood could have prevented her from becoming flamming human torch. Talk about a lack of common sense Thankfully, she was only pre-law and not premedicine

 

[Chuck's Right Foot]

ouch! What was she thinking wearing a flammable sweater, no lab coat, and wearing no safety equipment at all? Even the mimimal modicum of care, such as finding out where the lab showers are, running a wikipedia search of the reagents, and actually turning on the ventilation hood could have prevented her from becoming flamming human torch. Talk about a lack of common sense thankfully, she was only pre-law and not premedicine

6/10

 

[htownpremie]

if any of yall worked at a large research/academic center such as UCLA you would understand how easy it is to get complacent with safety and protocol. it becomes a game of hoops that you have to jump through. three committees review and approve our (i'm not at UCLA ftr) use of these drugs, inspect whether or not the drugs are expired, etc. and the MSDS's are all on file somewhere. we are regularly exposed to chemotherapeutic agents, yet we've only got one pair of safety glasses to go around about 6 people. i only joined a year ago, and i can only imagine how many years our lab has operated without people being really mindful of PPE. and if this technician's lab was anything like mine, it's really "do it once, teach it once." i've witnessed this in other labs too; there are no across the board standards for employees, particularly new ones.

and it really doesn't surprise me that the PI was either unaware or just didn't really concern him/herself with what was going on. in the setting i am, which is 100% academic research, our PI's haven't set foot into our lab in nearly 10 years. everything they know is through a complicated game of bureaucratic telephone, because they run these labs like businesses. they just sit in their offices, review data, and apply for grants.

when you join a lab, you are trained; and you generally want to follow that training if you want good results. regardless of how that applies to this case, it is just a general mindset that you adopt when you're working in a lab, particularly if you're working there everyday. she wasn't some idiot bushy-tailed premed joining a lab for the first time. she was working full time, and that wears you down over time especially if things are repetitive. i can see how she got lulled into that complacency; i'm probably like this at my own job. when things like this go wrong in my lab, the blame game plays out, and everyone throws up their hands and pretends like training and safety and following protocol have always been a priority. they never are unless the crap hits the fan or unless there is a pending inspection.

 

[pianola]

That was sort of my point, the laws that dictate whether or not something is negligent are too far-reaching. It isnt UCLA's fault she died, so why do they have to suffer for it? I am not saying it wasnt tragic or sad, just from a practical PoV it isnt fair to blame UCLA.

Apparently, for you to think that UCLA had a fault in it, UCLA would have had to directly hire an assassin with a gun. Or maybe that's not even direct enough for you. Did the president of the institution have to come after her with a gun to satisfy your requirements of blame?

If you provide unsafe instructions about how to handle a dangerous chemical (especially if those instructions are an example given by the lab manager) then YES you ARE to blame. And yes, instructions can be given by example.

I don't think I can make this any clearer and, well, you sound like you're possibly too stupid to understand. If this happens to a family member of yours, see what tune you end up whistling.

You really are very naive and possibly entirely heartless. Good luck in medical school interviews.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Let's please try and keep the tone of the conversation professional and civil.