UCSF (Full tuition) vs Kaiser (Full CoA) vs UTSW (Full CoA)

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Etopn23

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I've narrowed my acceptances to these three options and I'm wondering if I could get some thoughts from the community.

UTSW:

Pros – Home, Full cost of attendance scholarship, my parents live nearby so I effectively have free child care. Regional Powerhouse. P/F preclinical.

Cons: No home program in my specialty of interest. I have been in Dallas my entire life (worried that PDs will think I won’t leave Texas). Has a reputation for being cut throat.

Kaiser:

Pros – Full cost of attendance scholarship, helped find childcare and a job for my wife (only school that has done this), excellent faculty that goes out of its way to communicate its goals with us/support us (The dean himself is willing to put down w/e he is doing and talk to us if we need anything face to face), SoCal, very small class size which allows for individual attention and access to faculty. P/F preclinical. Program is well funded and has cutting edge technology it is trialing on its first class

Con: New school/first class (PDs may be hesitant to take someone from a new school), research partnership with Caltech – however it’s a new partnership and I’m unsure of how that will pan out, No home program in my specialty of interest, associated with the Kaiser HMO/hospital system whose motives are questionable, hololens is cool but IDK how I feel about purely virtual anatomy.

UCSF:

Pros – “Prestige”, full tuition scholarship, Has a home program in my specialty of interest (which may change) - I have been in contact with residents at this program who are willing to help me reach my goal. P/F for 3 years with a possibility for no aoa by the time I graduate. Heavy inbreeding here for residencies.

Cons: Cost of living! Subsidized housing and child care will cost about 2.7k each a month. I will likely end up spending 160k for this school even with tuition covered. Hard for my wife to find a PA job in the San Fran market with the pandemic.

I was solidly UCSF until Kaiser started its virtual second look/conversations I've had with faculty/other students and I'm starting to lean Kaiser.

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UCSF. They're not known for giving out lots of money but the fact you got a full tuition scholarship there means you're cream of the crop and awesome. Take it and pay for that cost of living, even though it sounds like it sucks. The pandemic really isn't that bad in SF, so I don't think your wife will have that hard of a time finding a job... When applying to residency UCSF>>>>>>Kaiser, and it sounds like your speciality of interest must be very specialized if even UTSW doesn't have it...
 
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Personally I say Kaiser especially since they've been so helpful with finding a job for your partner and childcare. To me that is something that seriously sticks out and shows how they will relate to you as a person throughout your medical journey.
 
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I almost always vouch for going for the money, but in this case I’m leaning towards UCSF. This isn’t KP v. another top-tier school at full cost, which tends to be posted on this sub-forum. This is KP v. a top-tier school where you will still be graduating with debt that is decently below the mean for medical students. It will cost you some of the comfort you would have otherwise at KP, but I think it is worth it. Only moreso since it seems you are aiming for some competitive specialty.
 
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I think Kaiser will open doors for you because of their commitment to your success. UCSF will open doors for you because of the name. I think Kaiser presents the better financial package. UCSF gives you the prestige. Both give you opportunities in different ways. I think the way Dean Schuster goes out of his way for the admitted students, your wife, family, the staff is completely emblematic of how much they are willing to do for you (it's a lot). Having a similar decision right now. Both make sense on different levels, both have different risks and opportunity costs. For what it's worth, I am 60% Kaiser as of now.
 
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If you’re estimating $160K pre-interest, it’s probably better to think of it as $200k after interest has accrued. The good thing about KP being brand new is the abundance of opportunities to start orgs and mold the school for future classes, all of which will significantly add to your CV. Furthermore, a dean availing themselves to the extent that Dean Schuster has is, as others have pointed out, unheard of. Also, “prestige” can only carry you so far. LORs are way more important, and it sounds like KP faculty are super invested in seeing their new school thrive, meaning they’ll pull all of their weight to make sure students have a successful match. UTSW not having your program of interest is actually quite surprising, but I guess a valid reason to look elsewhere.
 
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UCSF, hands down. While KP may be a great school and have excellent faculty, attending an established T5 school for that price is the better career decision.
 
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UCSF, hands down. While KP may be a great school and have excellent faculty, attending an established T5 school for that price is the better career decision.
Could you unpack what you are focusing on (a little more tangibly) by underlying established? KP is about as established as a new school can be haha. And I'm just curious what you see as the benefits, though they may be obvious, of the "established-ness".
 
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Last cycle I gave up UTSW Full CoA to attend another T20 on full tuition scholarship

I have no regrets in the choice I made for my own personal happiness + growth. And then UCSF is worth the extra money over Kaiser
 
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UCSF, but damn can’t believe Kaiser found a job for your wife, amazing school.
 
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Last cycle I gave up UTSW Full CoA to attend another T20 on full tuition scholarship

I have no regrets in the choice I made for my own personal happiness + growth. And then UCSF is worth the extra money over Kaiser

To the OP, It appears as if UCSF is the best choice. If your area of specialty is lucrative, then it's the best choice. If you want to practice in an area that serves the underserved and has financial costs, then UTSW is the best choice.

@Hydrochlorination I'm curious to know whether you're also a TX resident or whether you received an OOS scholarship from UTSW.
 
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I mean realistically, if the OP isn't fully convinced by full tuition at UCSF, he must really like Kaiser.
It is going to be twice as hard to match into competitive/top programs coming from Kaiser (as compared to UCSF), but if OP is set on family medicine or other non-competitive programs, it will be fine.
 
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Wow congrats man!

I think it really depends on what is most important for you. For me, UCSF is the answer because it's one of the best medical schools which means excellent teaching, more opportunities esp if you want to go into a very competitive specialty, the people, and all-around awesome resources. Emphasis on competitive specialty chances because most people will change their minds about what they want to go into during med school and even residency.

The fact that Kaiser wants to offer your wife a PA job and childcare is awesome. However I personally wouldn't bank on the job part because it's not always guaranteed (even with your argument about being tough to find a job during the pandemic also applies to Pasadena since we're talking CA in general...).
 
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Could you unpack what you are focusing on (a little more tangibly) by underlying established? KP is about as established as a new school can be haha. And I'm just curious what you see as the benefits, though they may be obvious, of the "established-ness".
This year is their inaugural class. There will inevitably be kinks with regard to the curriculum for pre-clinical and clerkships. UCSF introduced their most recent curriculum in 2016 so it has had ~4 years for feedback and improvement, as well as hospitals that have been teaching their medical students for decades.

Although there may be an opportunity to create new organizations/groups at KP, that also means that there are no pre-existing support networks or community on campus. Also, it means that there is a lack of upperclassmen, including their mentorship from student perspectives. These "more established schools" have large pools of recent graduates that allow much easier networking and guidance in fields of interest.

However, I think the biggest factor will be academic pedigree. The unfortunate truth of P/F Step 1 - and P/F curriculum as whole - is that more weight is given to institutional name. I'm not sure what OP's field of interest is, but if they decide they are interested in competitive field either now or later, then they will have more opportunities and benefit by attending UCSF. I have known many people (students and faculty) who have entered interested in primary care and/or community programs but changed their mind and now sub-specialized, in academia, etc. Simply put, having the institutions name attached to your CV is a benefit, especially for more academic/competitive residency programs.
 
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OP, just curious, what's your specialty of interest? Current UTSW student here and I can't think of a single specialty we don't have a home program in, except maybe I6 which has so few spots anyway that most people dual apply gen surgery.

Obviously I'm biased ;) but I don't think your cons list for UTSW is that significant! Kaiser doesn't have your specialty of interest either, it's very doable to leave Texas if you want (half the class matches out of state every year, and considering 90% of the class is IS and many want to stay, seems like a lot to me), and as a MS3 I think the reports of the school being cutthroat is unfounded. I don't think a new school is ever really worth the risk, and free childcare/no debt/a good job market for your wife is not something that's easy to pass up.
 
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OP, just curious, what's your specialty of interest? Current UTSW student here and I can't think of a single specialty we don't have a home program in, except maybe I6 which has so few spots anyway that most people dual apply gen surgery.

Obviously I'm biased ;) but I don't think your cons list for UTSW is that significant! Kaiser doesn't have your specialty of interest either, it's very doable to leave Texas if you want (half the class matches out of state every year, and considering 90% of the class is IS and many want to stay, seems like a lot to me), and as a MS3 I think the reports of the school being cutthroat is unfounded. I don't think a new school is ever really worth the risk, and free childcare/no debt/a good job market for your wife is not something that's easy to pass up.

Integrated vascular 0+5
 
At first, i was going to say Kaiser because they went out of their way to help your wife. This tells me that they would go out of their way to make sure you're successful no matter where you apply. However, if your specialty of choice is that rare, better to have a home program like UCSF that can write letters of recommendation for you. It will be a bit costly, but I'm sure you will survive and be able to pay off your loans as a doctor and a wife who is a PA. With that, I would pick UCSF. But I am very impressed with Kaiser and what they would go through to help you out. Good luck and congrats on your cycle.
 
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As someone who graduated from a new medical school and went into a specialized, competitive specialty, don't you DARE make the mistake of going to Kaiser. Goodwill gestures don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. UCSF or UTSW are both fantastic schools and much better choices. What specialty are you going into?
 
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As someone who graduated from a new medical school and went into a specialized, competitive specialty, don't you DARE make the mistake of going to Kaiser. Goodwill gestures don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. UCSF or UTSW are both fantastic schools and much better choices. What specialty are you going into?
I'm interested in integrated vascular
 
As someone who graduated from a new medical school and went into a specialized, competitive specialty, don't you DARE make the mistake of going to Kaiser. Goodwill gestures don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. UCSF or UTSW are both fantastic schools and much better choices. What specialty are you going into?

can you elaborate on this?
 
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Because you already aware you want a more competitive, specific specialty, could you reach out to the vascular forum? There is an AMA on here from a vascular surgeon (mimelim?). Those in the field might be best positioned to tell you what they would think of your residency app from Kaiser vs the two more established schools.
 
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Because you already aware you want a more competitive, specific specialty, could you reach out to the vascular forum? There is an AMA on here from a vascular surgeon (mimelim?). Those in the field might be best positioned to tell you what they would think of your residency app from Kaiser vs the two more established schools.
@mimelim can I get your input if you've the time?
 
Kaiser:

Pros – Full cost of attendance scholarship, helped find childcare and a job for my wife (only school that has done this), excellent faculty that goes out of its way to communicate its goals with us/support us (The dean himself is willing to put down w/e he is doing and talk to us if we need anything face to face), SoCal, very small class size which allows for individual attention and access to faculty. P/F preclinical. Program is well funded and has cutting edge technology it is trialing on its first class

Con: New school/first class (PDs may be hesitant to take someone from a new school), research partnership with Caltech – however it’s a new partnership and I’m unsure of how that will pan out, No home program in my specialty of interest, associated with the Kaiser HMO/hospital system whose motives are questionable, hololens is cool but IDK how I feel about purely virtual anatomy.
can you elaborate on this?

Regardless of what anyone says, school ranking matters when it comes time to apply to residencies, especially in super competitive fields. You will always have the stigma of coming from a new, unknown medical school if you choose to attend one. It's similar to the stigma you get from attending a DO school, though not as severe. Also, you will have far greater research/mentorship opportunities in a highly ranked school, which is arguably the most important part of applying to a competitive residency.
 
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Did you already get in touch with UCSF to tell them what the other programs are offering? Regardless, hands down go with UCSF in this situation. You will come out with less than average med school debt with a top tier name and will be able to match wherever you please without the stress of grades/ranking. Step 1 will likely be P/F so the UCSF name will carry even more weight.

The Bay Area is huge and your wife will likely be able to find a job just outside of SF. It may be a commute, but she will still be able to find a job.

The money seems like a lot right now, but you and your wife need to think of this as a long-term investment (I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, but it sounds like you still need more convincing). Even if she can't get a job right now, she will be able to get a job within the next few months.
 
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As someone who graduated from a new medical school and went into a specialized, competitive specialty, don't you DARE make the mistake of going to Kaiser. Goodwill gestures don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. UCSF or UTSW are both fantastic schools and much better choices. What specialty are you going into?
It's important to understand that not all new schools are created equal. Many factors that are to the detriment of many new schools, such as students who are perhaps not competitive enough to have better options, faculty who aren't experienced/connected, and the lack of resources, do not apply to Kaiser.

Sure, every new school will have it's challenges and you may have had a difficult time matching to a specialized, competitive program from yours - but this shouldn't be generalized to every new institution.

To OP: I'd say UTSW>Kaiser>UCSF for you. You're clearly the type of person who will excel anywhere and get to where you want to go, regardless of where you attend medical school.
 
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It's important to understand that not all new schools are created equal. Many factors that are to the detriment of many new schools, such as students who are perhaps not competitive enough to have better options, faculty who aren't experienced/connected, and the lack of resources, do not apply to Kaiser.

Sure, every new school will have it's challenges and you may have had a difficult time matching to a specialized, competitive program from yours - but this shouldn't be generalized to every new institution.

To OP: I'd say UTSW>Kaiser>UCSF for you. You're clearly the type of person who will excel anywhere and get to where you want to go, regardless of where you attend medical school.
You are incorrect. All new institutions have zero reputation because they are new. This will affect you negatively when it comes time to getting interviews or rank list meetings. When you have the choice between going to UCSF or UTSW vs literally any new institution, it should be an obvious choice, especially when cost isn't much of an issue.
 
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Did you already get in touch with UCSF to tell them what the other programs are offering? Regardless, hands down go with UCSF in this situation. You will come out with less than average med school debt with a top tier name and will be able to match wherever you please without the stress of grades/ranking. Step 1 will likely be P/F so the UCSF name will carry even more weight.

The Bay Area is huge and your wife will likely be able to find a job just outside of SF. It may be a commute, but she will still be able to find a job.

The money seems like a lot right now, but you and your wife need to think of this as a long-term investment (I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, but it sounds like you still need more convincing). Even if she can't get a job right now, she will be able to get a job within the next few months.
Yeah, I had no luck. They said they would re-evaluate after all acceptances went out.
 
UCSF might be worth the investment in your long-term career goals. My thoughts are that Kaiser might be the riskiest program out of the three, with Step 1 going P/F, PD will more heavily rely on program prestige (UCSF).
 
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This is so insanely off-base. The amount of connections and legwork you have to do as a student from a new medical school is a lot compared to a school like UCSF. The fact that people are saying anything other than UCSF shows how horrifically misguided users on here can be.
No one disagrees that attending a new school will take more legwork and there will certainly be challenges one wouldn't face at an established school. My previous post references three specific negative aspects associated with new schools that there is evidence are mitigated at Kaiser. This isn't to say all other negative aspects about being a new school don't apply, it will still come with challenges. I stand by the fact that one shouldn't generalize all new schools as the same - as an example: the quality of students, faculty, reputation and resources at Kaiser are very different that those at Cal Northstate.

OP, and many others on these forums, are considering Kaiser over top schools, after weighing all of the evidence available. It seems more likely that you may not be aware of all the evidence involved, rather than the assumption that others who don't agree are all wrong or horrifically misguided.
 
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No one disagrees that attending a new school will take more legwork and there will certainly be challenges one wouldn't face at an established school. My previous post references three specific negative aspects associated with new schools that there is evidence are mitigated at Kaiser. This isn't to say all other negative aspects about being a new school don't apply, it will still come with challenges. I stand by the fact that one shouldn't generalize all new schools as the same - as an example: the quality of students, faculty, reputation and resources at Kaiser are very different that those at Cal Northstate.

OP, and many others on these forums, are considering Kaiser over top schools, after weighing all of the evidence available. It seems more likely that you may not be aware of all the evidence involved, rather than the assumption that others who don't agree are all wrong or horrifically misguided.

You, as a pre-med, recommended OP attend Kaiser instead of UCSF. That is irresponsibly bad advice. Are you waitlisted at Kaiser?
 
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As a student considering Kaiser, I am a little surprised at how much this forum seems to be biased towards Kaiser.
 
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You, as a pre-med, recommended OP attend Kaiser instead of UCSF. That is irresponsibly bad advice. Are you waitlisted at Kaiser?

I think bashing someone about a school you know next to nothing about is irresponsibly bad behavior. Did you interview at Kaiser? Did you talk to the faculty? Were you on the calls at second look?

If this is SUCH a bad decision to make, why are other very intelligent/accomplished students who got into other good/great schools still considering/choosing Kaiser?

I have no ties to Kaiser. I'm just sick of people on the internet acting like they have all the answers.
 
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UCSF from a purely objective POV.

Why take a chance?

UCSF is a top school and its free for you.
 
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I'll preface this by saying that, if I were in OP's shoes, I would choose UCSF, especially since they have an exact specialty in mind. That said, I absolutely get why the decision is difficult and I am facing a somewhat similar one (though not deciding between as prestigous school as UCSF and Kaiser) myself. Like blurb_123 pointed out, there's a lot of people deciding between top schools and Kaiser, and for good reason. When I applied for Kaiser, I didn't think about it much outside of it being a tuition-free option. I enjoyed my interview day, and did not expect an acceptance. When I got an acceptance there, I still never thought I'd go there over the other highly ranked schools I was accepted at. The communication with faculty, the second look, a meeting with the dean, and the town hall have changed my perspective completely. Kaiser is far and away more than what I thought it was at first (just a cheap, new school in Southern California).

I get why it's easy to dismiss Kaiser from the outside looking in. If you'd asked me 4 months ago, I would have laughed at the idea of choosing Kaiser over anything in the Top 20, regardless of the financial situation. I definitely see things differently now. My mind isn't made up, and I'll avoid sounding like a Kaiser apologist, but I'd caution anyone against viewing Kaiser as just another new MD school.
 
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You, as a pre-med, recommended OP attend Kaiser instead of UCSF. That is irresponsibly bad advice. Are you waitlisted at Kaiser?
I actually recommended OP attend UTSW, I feel it's the best balance of opportunities and monetary value based on their goals. I'm not waitlisted at KP. These threads are for giving your personal opinion, which I provided with evidence to why I came to that conclusion. I don't understand the animosity in some of these responses or how anyone can so confidently say there is one right decision here and everyone else is wrong - each option has merit.
They're planning on going there, of course they're going to defend it unconditionally.
I'm not defending any school unconditionally, see the several instances I stressed the challenges faced by going to any new school over an established institution. The question is whether these challenges are worth $160k to attend UCSF over UTSW or Kaiser. My opinion is no, but this is a personal decision for everyone.
 
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Nobody is saying Kaiser is a bad choice in general. However, when you are comparing vs. established schools with great reputations like UCSF UTSW, it is a bad choice. That Kaiser Kool-Aid is potent.
 
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OP, if you are interested in a specific specialty, go to UCSF. I change my stance. I assumed you were interested in primary care or something very not-competitive.

Ucsf is 100 times better than kaiser in every possible way- education, research, world-class mentorship, and clinical training. There is no comparison.
I would probably put Kaiser between UC Riverside Medicine and UC Irvine Medicine. It's a new school- it's going to take at least four years for the curriculum to fully develop, even if you recruit 1000 world-class professors from MGH.

However, if you don't care about prestige or world-class clinical training or research or getting into a competitive specialty, there is nothing inherently ”wrong” with going to Kaiser! Everyone has different values. Not everyone is ambitious or wants to be in academic medicine or do something competitive. There is nothing wrong with being at an average medical school, especially since its totally free.
 
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I just decided - UCSF. Thanks everyone.
One thing to consider that I didn’t see mentioned regarding UCSF.
I don’t know if your wife is / was already employed as a PA using your 2018 taxes from which financial aid at UCSF was based?
If not, your financial aid will change once she is employed and could impact your award. Also, even if she was employed, if she gets a 30% raise going to SF from Texas, it too can impact your need based award to a degree.

I’d say UTSW (full COA and reputable ability to pursue outside specialization) IS GREATER THAN UCSF ( home sub specialty of integrated vascular) GREATER THAN Kaiser. Any other sub specialty, and I would say UCSF>Kaiser as payback wouldn’t be too difficult. But UTSW and ability to match wont hold you back worth the 160k+.

One more thing, I didn’t understand your match... you estimated 2700 each for housing and day care in SF? That is 5400/ mo so about 65k/yr which is 260k for four years.
 
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